Checkride - count as PIC?

[PintofT]

Just a quickie....

.....can a low hours PPL include a checkride (on to say a C152 from a PA28) as PIC time given that the checkride's done with an instructor?

Thanks.

[S-Works]

incoming..........

[chrisbl]

who was pilot in command? Was the checkride instruction?

[PintofT]

That's essentially my question. I'd do the checkride sooner rather than later if I'd get the hours. If not, I'll hang fire until I need to do it.

[S-Works]

What on earth is the obsession with P1? Flying is flying, P1 or PUT makes little difference in the global scheme of things. If the P1 time is that precious to you then you are not mature enough as a pilot.

[Cows getting bigger]

If the flight demands an instructor (club rules?) then it is an instructional flight and you are PUT.

PS. Bose may have a few thousand hours so he's probably forgotten how important those first few dozen were. ;)

[DeeCee]

That's the problem with Pprune. Somebody asks a simple question and within a couple of posts gets insulted (quite often by someone with 1000s of posts).

Maybe if you looked down from your lofty perch you would see people who cannot afford to go flying much, placing a value on P1 time.

If you cannot help, or don't want to help, shut up.

[PintofT]

Thanks Cows - I thought that may be the case.

Bose, my good man, go find some valium. I'm working towards a CPL on a tight budget.

[Okavango]

I thought it was a sensible question - I'd had similar thoughts about a check out for a different airfield (short grass strip). In the end I've recorded it as P1/S as what I was told for the flight test. Is this wrong? The club don't charge instruction rates for checkouts so I don't think they consider it as instruction, merely checking that you're safe.

[blagger]

I know the feeling, I was once there trying to get my 100hrs for CPL. My advice is to take the hit on the odd hour P u/t if it gets you access to a new type or whatever. However, then remember that currency is king in your hours building - I always advise that hours builders at our club should aim to fly at least every fortnight (every week ideally), even if you are struggling for cash it is better to do a 20min trip every week rather than a 3hr splurge in a day every other month. That way your flying skills stay fresh and you avoid the chance of going out of club currency (if you aim for at least every other week you have a buffer for weather, illness, tech a/c etc.. then as well). Good luck with it.

ps - on the P1 issue. Whoever was agreed as ac commander (and should be shown on tech log / auth sheet whatever) logs P1. If that person was an instructor, the other person may log P u/t. Nothing else (excludes exam flights) is worth the paper it is written on.

[mad_jock]

bose-x you grumpy old bugger :p

Those first 500 hours are so special. :)

[Sepp]

PintofT>

JAR-FCL 1.080(c)(5):

PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision)

Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.

---


That may answer your question - hopefully to your satisfaction.

Sepp

Looking down from a lofty Postholder's perch - and constantly hoping my arse isn't sticking out of the tree too far...

[S-Works]

SEPP, you stuck your arse so far out of the tree that a kid with a pellet gun would hit it with a blindfold on and one arm tied to their own arse......

PICUS is ONLY ever used for the successful completion of a flight test when talking about single pilot aircraft. You are either P1 or PUT in a single pilot aircraft unless having successfully completed a flight test with an examiner.

bose-x you grumpy old bugger

Those first 500 hours are so special.

OK, MJ valid point. I forgot every minute counts to the eager beavers. :p:p

[mad_jock]

No that only works if it is a dual pilot aircraft.

Its will be PUT in this day with instructors grabbing the hours.

It really isn't worth trying to blag it. All that ends up happening is they send back all your paper work after waiting 5 weeks and tell you that you need to get more PIC time. Then it will take another 5 weeks for your CPL to arrive.

Bose-X really has it straight these things seem very important when your in triple figures Once your up into 1000's it really doesn't bother you.

[BEagle]

Except, Sepp, that there is no such thing as a 'co-pilot' on SPA aeroplanes such as the C152.

Picture the scene. A wet behind the ears pilot goes out to C152 with experienced FI. Wet behind the ears pilot has decided that he will be PIC as he needs to build his hours for some future co-pilot job on 737s.

"Are we ready yet, captain?" asks the FI.

"Err, yes. I think so."

"Oh good. Has it got much fuel in the tanks?"

"Err, the gauges say so."

"Well, did you look in the tanks?"

"How do you do that?"

"Do you want me to tell you?"

"Err, yes please."

"Well, that'll be instruction then.... You are thus P u/t and I, as PIC will give you instruction. Understood?"

"Err, yes"

"Good!"

[S-Works]

Thanks Cows - I thought that may be the case.

Bose, my good man, go find some valium. I'm working towards a CPL on a tight budget.

And without being funny....... Utterly pointless in a global downturn. Currency is king. You have as much chance of getting a job with a minimum hours CPL as I have of winning personality of the year.......

Make your hours count not just be obsessed with the column they fit in.

[mad_jock]

well if you on a scotsmans budget why are you messing around with a 4 seater.

A 3 axis mogas machine is the way forward.

[Sepp]

Bose-x: lol, well, it wouldn't be the first time; it's a big enough target... and there's nowt wrong with being grumpy, or old - or indeed a bugger. Having survived long enough to be any combination of the three, it is sort of a human right.

"Make your hours count not just be obsessed with the column they fit in."

Couldn't agree more!

[flybymike]

So....erm...er, in the event of a successful flight test, the candidate is P1s, and the examiner is P1?

Doesn't that make two P ones? or is one pilot P1 and the other one a super dooper P1?

[Lightning6]

I always recorded check flights as PI/S back in the '70s, because that's what it is! you are pilot in command but under supervision.

SoCal App...Have you a constructive input to this thread? What would you enter it under? It is important, as your logbook is a legal document, and any entries must be accurate.

[Lightning6]

SoCal App...A bit of thread drift going on here (nothing new), I agree with you about the standard of training (prepare for flack from FI's) a lot of FI's these days are just hour builders, in my day (God I feel old!) FI,s were, in my experience, dedicated to their job. You ask the average FI now to teach you spin recovery, most of them haven't had enough training themselves! Ask them a simple question about what to put in the 'holders operating capacity' column...Well!!...So I do agree with you, although bose-x could have been a bit more polite. ;)

[jamestkirk]

As far as I know for a check ride. If your PPL is current then there is no reason why you cannot log P1 with an instructor. With the usual he/she not touching controls etc, bla, etc.

Ask the FI, as if they have loads of hours it wont matter to them. If they are trying to become un-restricted it may.

Dont log P1/S as stated in other posts.

I am not saying this about your club but some clubs/schools are not aware of the details. Have a look at lasors to put your mind at rest.

[Lightning6]

Mmmm...jamestkirk...If you are converting from type to type, surely it has to be PI/S, I've done a google to find out what to log for what, and couldn't find anything conclusive, I've looked on the CAA site, gave up in the end! Back, after my training, when converting to type, I was always told to book it as PI/S.

[BackPacker]

I've done a google to find out what to log for what, and couldn't find anything conclusive, I've looked on the CAA site, gave up in the end!

LASORS section A, appendix B. That's page 74 in LASORS 2008.

[Lightning6]

Thanks BackPacker...A more relevant bit on page 78:-

"Pilot under instruction for
the purpose of gaining a
licence or rating, or for
conversion to an aircraft
type within an aircraft rating
group or class.
P/UT Enter time in ‘Dual’ column."

But that's JAR, after my day :-)

[S-Works]

So....erm...er, in the event of a successful flight test, the candidate is P1s, and the examiner is P1?

Doesn't that make two P ones? or is one pilot P1 and the other one a super dooper P1?

Nope, it makes one pilot in command (the examiner) and one pilot in command under supervision. Under supervision but not under training.

This is the only time this exceptional circumstance is allowed in single pilot aircraft.

[S-Works]

Mmmm...jamestkirk...If you are converting from type to type, surely it has to be PI/S, I've done a google to find out what to log for what, and couldn't find anything conclusive, I've looked on the CAA site, gave up in the end! Back, after my training, when converting to type, I was always told to book it as PI/S.

And you were told incorrectly by an Instructor who clearly had no idea what they were talking about. The regulations on when P1/s is used in SINGLE PILOT aircraft are VERY clear. A checkout with an Instructor is not P1/S. It is either P1 or PUT nothing else.

It is also not a JAR thing, it was also an old CAA thing.....

Opening a new can of worms is the times when someone should be P1 and therefore the Instructor logs nothing. If converting between types in a class it is training and the Instructor is P1. If I am just running someone around the circuit a couple of times for club or syndicate 28 day rules then I log nothing as I am not there teaching. Other Instructors may insist they are P1 all the time, it is there prerogative. Personally I gave up caring about the hours long ago.

[PintofT]

Thanks for the help.

[FatFlyer]

I was recently at the CAA waiting for a licence renewal, when an unhappy applicant was sent away to correct his logbook as he had claimed P1/s for a number of hours on a single crew plane when he was not undergoing a test for the issue or renewal of a licence or rating.
Going from a 172 to a PA28 is not a type conversion requiring an official test as they are both SEP however much sense it may be to have some training.

[jamestkirk]

I went down there to get un-restricted FI and the lady behind the counter said 'how can you be supervising the student when your not with him in the aeroplane'. And 'you were not even at the same airport'.