Four Corners ABC 27 Jul 09 and Aerospace Aviation

[adam210]

Watch four corners expose shonky colleges on monday at 8.30 EST on abc. Aerospace Aviation Bankstown will be in it.

For more information, Aerospace Aviation (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/foreign-students-take-aim-at-flying-school/2009/07/10/1246732474091.html)

ABC 4Corners (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners)

[AviatoR21]

Very interesting, its so obvious its all true. Everyone hears these kind of stories emulating from flight schools which 'cater' for international students. All I can say is good luck to them and their law suit, as for the flying school who knows.....

[GADRIVR]

Lets put aside the allegations that Aerospace has somehow ripped off these students (the programs allegations or ascertation ,not mine)
Lets also put aside the allegations that students were abused (thats putting it mildly if you believe the allegations put forward by the Australian student that refer to the Ops Manager!) in some way ,shape or form.
Lets ignore the allegations that instructors weren't properly qualified (re:Cert 4 in workplace training or an equivalent).
Why don't we politely ignore the allegations on this program and though other media outlets that there aren't enough aircraft to service the student base.
Not to forget the inference that students (up to 25 individuals at times according to old mate) were forced due to lack of adequate student facilities, to "sit under a tree with a few plastic chairs!"
What does that leave us?
I don't know really, but me thinks there's more to this story than Four Corners one sided mishmash of emotion.
Perhaps some of the company instructors would like to put forward their views here?

[43Inches]

Cynical, If providing a course carries with it a minimum qualification for instructors then the company must provide suitably qualified staff. The Cert IV does seem to be a waste of time, however it is a very short course with many credits for instructors experience. If the company intended to handle large volumes of international or tertiary college students then it would have been a very simple matter to ensure all staff were qualified, it's not as if they had to complete a three year teaching degree.

If the company had an appropriate warning and discipline system for its students then there should be written evidence of this. When training any student the training records should have documented student progress and attitude, as well as non attendance, lack of interest and any warnings issued. The student should read, understand and sign all entries so when it does get ugly and disputes arise it is written in ink. Also if monies are involved from another party such as parents then copies of warnings should be forwarded to them ASAP.

If the company has been diligent in the above matters the court case will be very short.

[tiger19]

A documented court brief was presented on the programe allegedly composed by aerospace accusing an Indian student of breaching CTA when his log book (which is stamped by Aerospace) clearly shows that he hadn't started his flying training on the date of the breach!!!! BODGY. If I was this guy, having my name slandered in a legal document, I would sue you know who!!!

[UnderneathTheRadar]

And what made me wonder about the CTA breach was - so what?

If it happened to a student pilot flying solo then who sent him solo/GFPT/PPL not properly briefed? Sounds like a one-off (well a none-off given it seemingly wasn't him anyway) and these things happen often enough by accident (I've done it myself at Bankstown due to confusion in the circuit).


Fine, we all know that some foreign students (and plenty of locals too) have problems with dedication, ability and whatever but if someone pays for a 200 hour flying course and has somehow run out of credit with 100 hours (or whatever they quoted) in the logbook then they are being ripped off.

Get to 200 hours flying and don't meet the standard - well fine, that's your problem and not the schools.

UTR

[SM227]

With all that sitting around and waiting they where doing I wonder how many had all the exams completed? I bet they where under that tree chatting instead of having a textbook in there hand reading! :=

[sms777]

Indeed.... sitting under the tree discussing the greatest thing just come out of their country.........the movie "Slumdog Millionaire" :}

[puff]

SM227 way to slander them all much like a lot of people seem to do. Sure anyone would agree that with any large group of students you are going to get a 'few' that are going to slack off and have no interest in completing the training the alarm bells should be ringing when such large numbers of students are making the same accusations of what this school is doing. Do all Indian students move halfway around the world - generally remortage their family home to come over here to go home with no qualification?

Lets face it many of these schools get far larger numbers of students than they can cater for, take their money and hope for the best that they can get them through. Can you start to blame them if they sit at the airport for 10 days and don't fly that on the 11th they don't bother - then the school says well you weren't here yesterday you could of flown your not dedicated. Sadly it's not just this school and so many others the 'timeframes' quoted blow out to months and months over it and you are tied into staying because the schools have these pay upfront policies.

If the allegations of the instructors not having Cert IVs are true - well despite everyones comments that the qualification is useless - it's a requirement under these programs that the instructors do have this qualification - no different to having an instructor rating. They elect to run the school and abide by this.

Reality is the lack of professionalism in aviation starts right at the bottom and it doesn't improve the higher you go - most of these 'sausage factories' are nothing but money making enterprises that have no concern for the students or the quality of the education they provide to them - and the reality of the four corners program is pretty true - frankly no one gives a crap.

The country is littered with hundreds of people that have been ripped off financially by bad flying schools both foreign and domestic students - yet most are too scared to speak up too much for fear as being labeled as a troublemaker in this small industry.

As for the ABC making 'us' look like racist bogans - sadly a percentage of the population does a pretty darn good job at that already.

[Crescent]

It's fascinating looking at the cycle of blame - student to school and vice versa. It is my suggestion that the whole system is rotten - it starts with agents in India making promises the school can't keep, the creation of an expectation that the mimimum hours is all that is required for a qualification, through to student and family pressure and finally through to the flying school.

No one party would be entirely to blame, they all contribute to the end result - dissatisfied students and their families feeling ripped off. The immediate touch point is the school providing the training, and there we are with a law suit.

In my view, the whole situation is more complex, and requires more than finger pointing and innuendo to fix. My first hand experience with AA is effectively nothing. Any comments I make are on the general situation, and are in no way a reflection of the school affected, just as I do not know the students and cannot comment on their relative dedication or situation. I comment as an outside observer, and the observation is that there is more than one failure at one point in the system, yet only one point is being pursued depending on which side of the fence you are on (schoolo vs student).

[training wheels]

For those who missed it last night on ABC, you can watch it online here;

Four Corners - 27/07/2009: Holy Cash Cows (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2009/s2637255.htm)

[baron_beeza]

-- Holy Cash Cows goes to air at 8.30pm 27th July on ABC 1. It is repeated at 11.35pm 28th July

11pm Darwin time.

[D-J]

Was very interesting to see whilst driving past AA this arvo, the gates locked & a security guard on patrol :uhoh:

[das Uber Soldat]

Whilst having nothing really to do with this whole mess, I feel argumentative and GADRIVR isnt around for me to bicker with :ok:

SM227 way to slander them all much like a lot of people seem to do. Sure anyone would agree that with any large group of students you are going to get a 'few' that are going to slack off and have no interest in completing the training the alarm bells should be ringing when such large numbers of students are making the same accusations of what this school is doing.
So your point is that in a large group of people, you expect to get a small group who slack off and have no interest in training and will probably complain.... whiiiccchhh should then signal alarm bells to the training organization... because.... the expected just happened? Sorry what?

I don't know the numbers but I'm fairly sure being the second biggest school at bankstown that they probably put through quite a few students. Does anyone know the facts? Do we have any hard numbers on those that graduated vs those that took 3 years to go nowhere? I doubt you have the facts either, which would make your viewpoint 100% useless speculation. Thanks for your opinion

Do all Indian students move halfway around the world - generally remortage their family home to come over here to go home with no qualification?
At my school? Generally? Nope. But. Do a handful from every course come out here because Mommy wanted them to be a pilot? Do that handful then treat aviation like an annoying chore to be attended soley so that the money keeps flowing from home so they can get on the piss and muck up? Do they then complain after 2 years when mommy says time to come home and they haven't even gotten a GFPT because promises or not?

I bet they do mate.

Lets face it many of these schools get far larger numbers of students than they can cater for, take their money and hope for the best that they can get them through. Can you start to blame them if they sit at the airport for 10 days and don't fly that on the 11th they don't bother - then the school says well you weren't here yesterday you could of flown your not dedicated. Sadly it's not just this school Lets just stop you there. By saying 'its not just this school, you're saying thats exactly what they're doing! Mate how the hell should you know? Do you work there? Are you a student there? Or do you know a guy who knows a guy who robbed a guy who went there once?

I reckon you don't have the first clue. Watching that 4 corners garbage just reminded me of years of India dropkicks not showing up, not putting in any effort and then telling any bull**** story they could think of when Mommy called and said whats the story. Honesty isn't exactly #1 cultural priority back home mate, and if you know anything about the topic, you'd know thats 100% on the ball.

What do you think these students are going to do? 'Yeh mom, thanks for the 70 grand. I actually spent most of it on the piss. Yeh, no pilots license for me, after 2 years I never even managed to learn the line up checks. My bad! Had a great time though. Rolled 2 seperate cars! Awesome.'

and so many others the 'timeframes' quoted blow out to months and months over it and you are tied into staying because the schools have these pay upfront policies.
Which at my school is plainly worded in the contract. If you can't read a contract, don't whinge to me

If the allegations of the instructors not having Cert IVs are true - well despite everyones comments that the qualification is useless - it's a requirement under these programs that the instructors do have this qualification - no different to having an instructor rating. They elect to run the school and abide by this.
This proves you have not the faintest. Comparing a Cert IV to an instructor rating is RIDICULOUS. Legal requirement? Yes. Makes a difference to the quality of instructing you could give? No. I remember my Cert IV course. About as useful as a boat anchor on a hang glider.

Reality is the lack of professionalism in aviation starts right at the bottom and it doesn't improve the higher you go - most of these 'sausage factories' are nothing but money making enterprises that have no concern for the students or the quality of the education they provide to them - and the reality of the four corners program is pretty true - frankly no one gives a crap.
I put to you that professionalism starts with speaking when you know the facts. You obviously don't know any, but most likely have something against the company in question and hence want to believe the 4 corners story, so you'll trudge out a bunch of the above tripe and try to sell it as the truth.

The country is littered with hundreds of people that have been ripped off financially by bad flying schools both foreign and domestic students - yet most are too scared to speak up too much for fear as being labeled as a troublemaker in this small industry.

As for the ABC making 'us' look like racist bogans - sadly a percentage of the population does a pretty darn good job at that already.
Racist? Are you kidding? Have you ever even heard of the Caste system back in India?

Caste system in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India)

As a further aside, I enjoyed one of those being interviewed in that clip crying about racism. This wouldn't be the same bloke who beat the living crap out of a defenseless Aboriginal in Byron and proclaimed 'dont tell me about my country!'. Nah, doubt it.

ha!
I agree with Crescent. I'd say everyones at fault and everyone has room for improvement. I'd like to see students tested and selectively picked before commencing so that we don't get people who aren't motivated. I'd also like to see schools that are non compliant to get addressed.

Someone posted in a thread before about a scheme in NZ where you are awarded a certain number of fee help or whatever you call it places based on the number of successful graduates you had the year previous. That places strong motivation on the school to go out and find students who will work hard and then work hard themselves to deliver quality training and get them through.

Win win in my books.

[YELOSUB]

AA shouldnt have taken on so many students and should have ensured that the instructors have all the qualifications. Now we will loose the International students to NZ / US etc. My messege to international students is to get out of the sausage factories and fly with an aero club. It might be more expensive but you will get the qualification in time.

[puff]

I did notice you picked and chose what you wanted to respond to there das which is fair enough, but in GADRIVR's absense i'm more than happy to take his place for the bickering :)

No mention was made of the school making what were proven to be completely crap allegations about the students making violations of controlled airspace? Unfortunate error that one I believe.

Next of all my comparison with the Cert IV and instructor rating was nothing more than an example that despite the fact the Cert IV IS a useless qualification is is a REQUIREMENT that the instructors have it to teach the students. Breaching that is exactly that - a breach of the conditions of which the school is operating. The fact of the usefulness of the Cert IV is a completely different arguement. A school I was flying with had the same requirement and always ensured that the relevent students on these courses were only flown with the people with the qualification.(until all of them obtained it)

I completely agree that 'SOME' of the students are probably lazy bastards and partly to blame but at the numbers mentioned in this report? - if its such a widespread problem why was it only this one school that was mentioned? They are not the only one training large numbers of Indians? I think your putting your head in the sand and singing to the pixies if you think there is not a lot of rot at how 'some' flying schools operate.

I personally have never flown or operated out of BK and have personal axe to grind with the organisation in question.

I think some would agree under the context of the story - that error about the violation of controlled airspace did not come over very well !

End of the line is if AA is operating fairly and correctly the system will work and they have nothing to be concerned about...will they?

I will agree and say I think that either way - for students and the operators involved some reform is needed because I think whoever is in the right or the wrong in this situation - it shows more work is needed - for both the students involved and the organisations protection. Oils ain't Oils when it comes to all flying schools - and it's unfortunate for the better quality schools that their overall reputations can be tarnished with the poorer quality ones.

No need to get personal das - just some friendly debate eh :)

[muffman]

None of the complaints raised on Four Corners seemed unreasonable to me. The claims of only flying 40 odd hours in 16 months are incredible. If the students weren't cutting the mustard in terms of standards, there are processes in place to send them home just the same way a university would send home any student who wasn't performing in exams on repeated occasions.

As for the unqualified instructors, I think perhaps the reporter made it sound worse than it is, but nevertheless the Cert IV is a requirement with just as much weight as the instructor rating when you're bringing in students in under the VETAB/AQTF system.

Having said that, I reckon Four Corners could probably do a whole other program on the bureaucratic fund raising bull**** that surrounds the vocational education sector in Australia.

[das Uber Soldat]

Indeed puff, good reply! :)

I did notice you picked and chose what you wanted to respond to there das which is fair enough, but in GADRIVR's absense i'm more than happy to take his place for the bickering http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif
Sounds good

No mention was made of the school making what were proven to be completely crap allegations about the students making violations of controlled airspace? Unfortunate error that one I believe.
Yeh that was a fairly poor move. I'm sure someone got fired over that one

Next of all my comparison with the Cert IV and instructor rating was nothing more than an example that despite the fact the Cert IV IS a useless qualification is is a REQUIREMENT that the instructors have it to teach the students. Breaching that is exactly that - a breach of the conditions of which the school is operating. The fact of the usefulness of the Cert IV is a completely different arguement. A school I was flying with had the same requirement and always ensured that the relevent students on these courses were only flown with the people with the qualification.(until all of them obtained it)
I acknowledged that in the last post. Required, yes. I believed the program inferred however that the instructors themselves simply weren't qualified. Now, the size of some of their circuits aside (:}) I think thats a little unfair. But yes, they all need one fair enough

I completely agree that 'SOME' of the students are probably lazy bastards and partly to blame but at the numbers mentioned in this report? - if its such a widespread problem why was it only this one school that was mentioned? They are not the only one training large numbers of Indians? I think your putting your head in the sand and singing to the pixies if you think there is not a lot of rot at how 'some' flying schools operate.
I put it to you that they could have done this with almost any school. Across YSBK I see this problem happening at almost all the internationally catering schools. There are disgruntled students at every organization no matter how good and as I said, none of us know the facts about what percentage of students this is. It may be large, but it may also be fairly tiny. You're talking about a number in relation to the entire course throughput over a 3 year period.

Its your own argument that the school must put through a ridiculous number of students per year, far in excess of what it can handle, so that number must be pretty big. There are 9 listed members on the court case (that got thrown out). 9 vs how many over 3 years?

As for why this school, well its news isnt it. Indian punchons in Melbourne, it becomes a story. You believe this is the first time a group of Indians have left disgruntled from any flying school in the country? Doubt it. Was it news worthy back then? No. Is it now? Yes.

I personally have never flown or operated out of BK and have personal axe to grind with the organisation in question.
Ill take that as code for 'yes, I, like the legenday das, admit, I know 0 of the facts

I think some would agree under the context of the story - that error about the violation of controlled airspace did not come over very well !
Agreed. Though I think its a bit of a beat up. Its fairly easy to check that in court when it comes to it so I doubt its a malicious attempt.

End of the line is if AA is operating fairly and correctly the system will work and they have nothing to be concerned about...will they?
Well, apart from having their name now dragged through the mud, and everyone who ever had an axe to grind with the organization coming out of the woodwork to add their 2 cents (where is BKFI anyway?), yeh, why be concerned! The facts matter not to the media who are selling airtime. Dewa are on their side, the Supreme court is on their side. But who cares.

I will agree and say I think that either way - for students and the operators involved some reform is needed because I think whoever is in the right or the wrong in this situation - it shows more work is needed - for both the students involved and the organisations protection. Oils ain't Oils when it comes to all flying schools - and it's unfortunate for the better quality schools that their overall reputations can be tarnished with the poorer quality ones.

No need to get personal das - just some friendly debate eh http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

So again, I fall into the trap of defending either other instructors or schools at YSBK. Heh, but at least its a fun argument. What I resent is that nobody is questioning the students actions. Nobody is actually asking what really happened. Has anyone looked at the numbers? Not a single person making comment actually has any evidence, proof or hard numbers (myself included).

Just 'yeh, thats probably right!' and plays it off as fact.

My position remains unchanged. I've seen this behaviour for years, I've seen the dishonesty. I hope they get bankrupted and have to row a boat home.

aannndddd thats my 2c :}

[joesch]

I am a flight instructor in bankstown and I am also conducting academic research on overseas students attending flight training in oz. It would be great to chat to some instructors or educators about their experience and contribute to this study.

anyone interested please let me know

cheers
joe
[email protected]

[glenb]

i would be very appreciative if someone could direct me to the legislative requirements for the Cert IV in workplace training requirements. although i do have the qualification, my understanding is that it only applied to Registered Training Organisations ( not all flying schools ), cheers.

[GADRIVR]

Das uber et al.....I'm watching with great interest....am formulating some sort of intelligent post....and we'll let the fun begin. Probably today at some stage:E:ok:

[das Uber Soldat]

Look forward to it mate, I'm sure you won't disappoint :ok:

[TinKicker]

Hi,

here are the requirements for an RTO's teaching staff taken from "Standards for Registered Training Organisations" - Australian Quality Training Framework - Australian National Training Authority (ANTA) dated 2001. I only have access to these at the moment they may have been updated.

7 The competence of RTO staff
Each member of the RTO's staff who is involved in training, assessment or client service is competent for the functions they perform.

7.1 The RTO must develop and implement written procedures for the recruitment, induction, and ongoing development of each member of its staff who is involved in training, assessment or client service; encourage and provide relevant opportunities for their professional development; and monitor their performance.

7.2 The RTO’s induction program and materials for new staff must contain information, where relevant to their job role, on each of the following:

i Training Packages;
ii competency-based training and assessment;
iii vocational education and training requirements and policies; and
iv requirements for New Apprenticeships/Traineeships.

7.3 a The RTO must ensure that assessments are conducted by a person who has:

i the following competencies from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training, or demonstrated equivalent competencies:

a BSZ401A Plan Assessment;
b BSZ402A Conduct Assessment;
c BSZ403A Review Assessment; and

ii relevant vocational competencies, at least to the level being assessed.

b However, if a person does not have all of the competencies in Standards 7.3 a (i) and 7.3 a (ii), one person with the competencies listed in Standard 7.3 a (i), and one or more persons who have the competencies listed in Standard 7.3 a (ii) may work together to conduct assessments.

7.4 The RTO must ensure that training is delivered by a person who:

i has all the competencies in the Certificate IV from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training (or has demonstrated the equivalent competencies) or who is under the direct supervision* of a person with these competencies; and

ii is able to demonstrate vocational competencies at least to the level of those being delivered.

*Direct supervision is achieved when a person delivering training on behalf of the RTO has regular guidance, support and direction from a person designated by the RTO who has the competencies in Standard 7.4 (i) and who monitors and is accountable for the training delivery. It is not necessary for the supervising person to be present during all training delivery.

If the organisation is registered under the Australian Quality Training Framework (AQTF) then they are an RTO and these standards apply.

Hope this makes things clear.

Tinkicker

[DickyPearse]

I am a flight instructor in bankstown and I am also conducting academic research on overseas students attending flight training in oz. It would be great to chat to some instructors or educators about their experience and contribute to this study.

anyone interested please let me know

cheers
joe



Sure you are Joe........

[WIKI44]

HAHA. nice try joe....

[The Green Goblin]

Does aerospace charge 5k per month to have the students enrolled there?

If so, even if you were not flying I could see how their 40 odd K disappeared rather quickly and how they did not end up with the required 200TT.

We all know what flight training is like, CX flights due to weather, instructors duty times running low (particularly trying to complete a NVFR), aeroplane unservicabilities and of course errors from operations in your bookings. I remember just trying to get my CPL flight test booked was a chore and then after my pre licence I had to wait two months for the test after which I was a little rusty when the time came to fly, although thankfully I passed.

I would say where there is smoke there is fire, however I also know how international students are to work with and they can be a chore. We all know what dealing with foreign call centres are like especially if they are giving tech support, they can read off a list but cannot think and diagnose problems laterally. Aviation requires lateral thinking, not wrote learning. It's not that these foreign students are incapable of lateral thinking, they have just never had the need to learn it along with never being encouraged to do so. Therein lies a major problem in getting one up to the standard required to pass a CPL flight test.

I have heard ATO's in the past passing students as they are obligated to by the flying school system with a verbal condition that they are never to exercise the privileges of their licence under their Australian licence in Australian airspace.

That to me rings alarm bells.

I've never worked as an instructor for Aerospace Aviation and anything I have said here is speculative and rumour not fact, and is not intended for any media organization to use in their coverage in relation to the issue at hand :ok:

Safe flying Peeps :)

[Joker89]

ATO's obligated to pass students????? god help us.

Like any educational course you pay your fees and you either do the work and pass or fail. Cant buy a degree or a CPL for that matter.

That said if there is evidence of misconduct it should be investigated and people made acocuntable.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Cant buy a degree or a CPL for that matter.

Dunno about CPLs, but you can pretty much buy a degree.

I recently finished a postgrad course and was amazed to see emails from the course convenor to all students about how rampant plagiarism was discouraged. Apparently various foriegn course participants had been buying their assignments or plagiarizing from textbooks, which would lead to automatic exclusion ten years ago. These days, it's worth a gentle reprimand and you still get a pass. Why? The international students pay far more than domestic students, and it all goes to the University coffers.

Education/training is a business these days. Nothing about achievement or imparting knowledge. Even the universities operate like this, so Heaven help the smaller operators.

[das Uber Soldat]

"acocuntable" is my new favorite word.

[Worrals in the wilds]

DUS,
Good point, well spotted. Just working out what a.c.o. stands for. :E

[bushy]

This seems to indicate that CASA give instructor ratings to people who are not properly qualified to teach flying.

[Maxweight]

Education/training is a business these days. Nothing about achievement or imparting knowledge. Even the universities operate like this, so Heaven help the smaller operators.

It was said on 4 Corners that education of foreign students is Australias 3rd biggest industry.
Me thinks that from time to time commercial decisions prevail!

Max

[vira]

Just an interesting note on qualifications of instructors in an RTO. Different states have different requirements however in Queensland I know that it is not a requirement that all staff have the TAA or BSZ qualification. The assessors that give the final qualification must have it and must supervise/assess/train the skilled professionals that deliver the training and assure that the training provided is at the appropriate standard.

Using this logic, the instructors that do the training do not require it and although it is a “recommendation” it is still not a requirement. It would be interesting to see what the NSW regulations state on this matter though… shame it’s not standard for all states…

:}

As a side note, the cert IV in aviation is not worth the paper it is written on. Unfortunately since it is not technically linked to CASA in anything but name it means if an RTO chose to they would be able to complete the entire course without ever having the student sit a CASA exam…. Thus no licence just a piece of paper…..

Will be great one day when the two departments work it out…

[jhurditch]

I Flew at AA. Would a Cert IV instructor need to be "signed out" by a more senior instructor. My memory is that many of the instructors I went up into the Circuit and training area with needed to be signed out first. Many times we could not leave because no instructors where around to sign us out.

[Capt Mo]

Jhurditch,

If you were flying with a junior grade 3 flying instructor, that instructor would have required to be under direct supervision of a grade 1 instructor, who needs to be at the school in order to supervise. It doesnt have anything to do with having or not hving a Cert IV.

Mo

[das Uber Soldat]

I think what he is referring to Capt Mo ..

"has all the competencies in the Certificate IV from the Training Package for Assessment and Workplace Training (or has demonstrated the equivalent competencies) or who is under the direct supervision* of a person with these competencies; and"

Is that.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Just to clarify

Grade 1/2/3 Instructor Rating is required to teach people how to fly.

Cert IV is a Vocational Course (can be done at TAFE by anyone) which all instructors are required to complete for the school to have VETAB approval.

It has nothing to do with teaching people to fly, it is only necessary to get VETAB approval.

Thats my understanding anyway.

[paplu]

Date: Sunday, January 14, 2007, 10:48 AM


The direct students from the Advisement have be taken
by Aerospace directly by Aerospace without informing
us.
Now I know why Sue has not put my name on your website
you both had evil intentions.


8, We have reported that the aircraft you will use for
training are not maintained properly and Auto Pilot etc do
not work since 2005 . You have also promised to
install RMI and HSI in the Aircraft but failed to do
so far . The cadets will be flying glass cockpits in INDIA
so the training on this A/c which cannot do dme arc ,
vor holds etc will be a waist of money for them .You
are also refusing to give training in the Duchess
which is a complex airplane even though you offers
says it.
9,We have already reported the Human Right violation
done by your Instructor Mr Richard and have more than
25 ex students who will sign for it . How can you do
CRM when your instructors think they are Superior
humans because of their Color ? KFA is owned by Dr
Vijay Mallaya who is a proud Indian and will not like
if your Instructors address their Cadets as "Bloody
Indians" and " You are the worst Race i have ever
Seen"
Thease guys are paying you , you must make sure
Richard is out of your School.Last month he took a
bottle of wine to pass a guy who has come from Haryan
to Aerospace to get his multi eng rating.Your
instructors can sell their integrity for a bottle of
wine??
10,We have also saved Aerospace twice from getting
Blacklisted By DGCA since Mescos were to file a report
about your school there and we gave you free legal
advice when the article was published against you .
11, AUSTRALIAN GROUND :- ground
subjects.The course books were given to us because at
that time your only ground instructor has resigned and
you have had no way of teaching the cadets.When ever
we tried to save you by helping you , you turned
against us and stabbed us on out back.
12, you and your
wife are cheating INDIAN students since 1992.
The day you were in INDIA i told you that your 152 has
crashed you tried to keep the news away from me.
13, We can even get a stay order against you to take
any student from India .. I think a team from INDIAN DGCA should go to
Aerospace on a fact
finding mission and should be allowed to talk to the
Indian student there.
14, We have already reported this you your High
Commissioner in Bombay who has advised us he will not
recommend your School to anyone else in INDIA.

16, Ball is in your court. Zane please note i will be
the last INDIAN you have tried to cheat.I will go to
each ex Aerospce student and have a signature campain
against you at least one of them will give evedence
against you to DGCA.You have not refunded a single $
to anyone so far but your website says that you will
give 10% back to them if they pay the entire fees at
once.Once they reach Sue theretens that she will
deport them if they open their mouth . You are sweet
to people tillthey pay you the first instalment when
they reach there they have to take an appointment to
talk to Sue some of the multi engine guys come back
without meeting her even once.

19, you are used to shortcuts Not we!
we will make sure thay get the complete ground
training than you
can log anyting ( Day flying as Night ) you want when
they come to you .


I have lost a year of my life with Aerospace but i am
a free man now who can start from scrach again and
beat you because i have integrity and we feel these
cadets are future of Indian Aviation and not some
commodity like you treat them.



You husband and wife team are evil and you are to be
stopped!

[GADRIVR]

Well....it's taken me a couple of days to find the time to tangle with Das Uber ( I can hear him panting like a young maiden in anticipation!:E)
So here we go.......nope...got nothin'!.
The Green Goblin seemed to sum it up.
Sorry Das Uber;)
I'll just say this. Aerospace should never have put itself into a position where a bunch of slackers could nail them!!
Good students I could back....but not this bunch of whiners!!
Indians.........dot your Is and cross your Ts. Then there will be no problem.
Here endeth the rant of sorts!!

[eesurendra]

well do any one know how many students are there at AA? and its a/c's etc?? and talking diligence even I agree some students have and some may not but why dont you take it in a possitive way?
AA used to offer 200hrs and 15hrs sim for AUD43500 (old rate and now its AUD50,000), after just doing abt 120hrs how could the course fee be finished?? ok leave it its finished we are willing to pay extra but AA should show the account statement for AUD43500. Is AA willing to do that?? The answer is no. AA has c-152 10, piper-5, c-172rg 2, p-68 2, 1 duchess. The student used to get 1 booking/week and if its cancelled, he/she has to wait for next week (so think abt the no. of students). There are lots of instructors who left the school because of management. These are only some there are a lot others.

[PlankBlender]

paplu, if the rant you're posting is indicative of the level of argument the students are having with the owners of the school, then IMHO you don't have a leg to stand on. Not a hard fact in sight that a court will take seriously in my view.

What exactly are you basing your claim on? If you still think you need an RMI, HSI or glass cockpit to be taught to CPL/MECIR level, you really haven't learned very much. Have a look at the syllabi and the legislation about minimum equipment. If you can't fly the hold and approaches with a simple VOR/ADF receiver, you don't have the required standard for the rating. The other arguments sound like a rant rather than you've got an actual case. Clearly you're p!issed off with the treatment you got, and I don't excuse racist comments or mistreatment, but as far as I can see that's a side show here at best, and doesn't constitute the case.

If you want sympathy and support, I suggest you lay out the hard facts about how the students have supposedly been cheated out of their money. So far nothing in this discussion has explained the fact how all that money has mysteriously vanished. From what I know about any training school in this country, you get charged when you fly and receive theory instruction, but not for simply being enrolled in the course or elapsed time. So unless you can explain where the money really went, you really have no case at all.

I'll also make a point about the law in this country: To be issued a license, you need to demonstrate to a delegate of the regulator that you have the standard required by law. There are no if's and but's, it's for the protection of the flying public and all in the industry, and the strict adherence of the ATO's and CFI's in this country to this law is one of the reasons that the Australian flying training industry is so attractive to foreign airlines, because they know that when someone rocks up with an Australian license, they know their stuff (or, more precisely, they can expect a certain minimum skill and knowledge).

So no matter how many hours it takes an individual student, unless he or she can demonstrate to the CFI the required standard, he or she will not be recommended for a flight test. And it shouldn't be any other way.

One last point: Delays are inevitable in aviation. If delays are excessive in one organisation due to lack of resources, nothing stops you from demanding monies paid upfront back and changing schools. If the school refuses, they have a case to answer and there is a legal system in this country that is as robust as the aviation regulation and you will get heard. In most cases a letter from a solicitor will be enough as costly legal battles are the last thing an entrepreneur needs. A judge might ask you why you paid large sums upfront in the first place, but if you can demonstrate that you didn't get what you signed up for, you'll more likely than not get remaining credit back and possibly even compensation of some kind. This is assuming you get proper legal advice and use the correct channels (legal advice being available for free in a lot of places, and the ABC report suggests the wrong legal avenues were used). The report suggests there was a requirement for monthly payments regardless of hours flown. Why on earth would any sane person keep paying when flying minimum hours, in effect just padding the school's bank accounts? :confused:

Throwing a big tantrum after the fact without some hard facts and good reasons won't get you much sympathy.. You either flew the hours and don't have the required standard for the rating (I'm sorry, but short of trying harder there's little you can do as the school will most likely be able to demonstrate they taught to CASA syllabus) or you have a credit with the school and thus have a valid case for a refund. Which is it?

[Fonz121]

Yeah Im a bit confused too. Whats the actual situation?

How many hours have you flown and how much have you paid? If you can tell us those two things then it will be pretty simple to work out.

ie: if you've paid $42000 or whatever and have only flown 50 hrs then you obviously have a good argument for being ripped off if they are refusing to give you your money
But if you have flown 150hrs or so then Im not sure what this whole thing is about.

Don't think Im taking AA's side but I would genuinely like to know the situation.

So Paplue, eesurendra if you could tell us the above details then that would help with understanding the problem.

[eesurendra]

course fee till feb 08 - Aud 43500
current course fee - Aud 50,000

course includes 200hrs(15hrs on multi included in 200) and 15hrs on sim books, test fee, etc.

after just doing abt 110hrs or even less in some cases.....AA asks extra amount to pay. These are some cases just go through the hrs and extra amount to be paid...
1. did 120hrs, 7hrs sim paid Aud43500- overflying charges Aud 145

2. did 98hrs, 4hrs sim paid Aud 43500- overflying charges Aud 230

3. did 175hrs, 15hrs sim paid Aud50,000 - overflying charges Aud 960

4. did 115hrs, 3hrs sim paid Aud 50,000- overflying charges Aud 320

just go through this is there any systematic in overflying charges and what they have did??

We never denied to pay extra, we just asked the account statement for what we hav paid, which they denied.

AA never charged extra for any student till feb 08. I know the students who passed out the school without paying anything extra except 1000 or 3000 for overflew charges. Later on students who ever passed they used to pay about 10,000 to 15,0000 to get their paper work.

80% of the students are Indians only. AA asks to pay 5000 every month wheather u fly or not. If u didnt pay, the booking are cancelled and threaten to cancell the visa. AA knows very well that we cannot do anything or dont hav guts. They are making money on this.

students per month

there are about 50 previous students who enrolled
june 07- 4
july 07- 15
aug 07- 9
sept 07- 12
oct 07- 16
nov 07- 10
jan 08 - 18
feb 08 - 20( only 1 is Indian)
april 08- 14
may 08- 11
aug 08- 2

later on no Indian batches only Aus are coming.

No. of students passed out from june 07 to jan-09 are abt only 20-30 studdents

AA fleet

10 c-152(all Indians are trained in this a/c only)

2 c-172rg

5 pipers

2 p-68 multi

1 duchess multi

Instructors at AA are good expect 3 or 4. There are abt 15 instructors.
Even instructors dont like the management of AA.

[das Uber Soldat]

Its going to be very interesting indeed watching AA's counter claim when it comes to court. I think its going to be the only way this matter will settle because there has been no actual evidence by either side posted here.

Hence this will turn in a rather pointless circular argument rather rapidly, if it isn't already.

[eesurendra]

5000 is towards course fee only.

3500 is paid advance from India.
rest is paid in 8 monthly instalments each 5000

Now there is no court case going on AA. The case is striked off saying that its a wrong legal avenue.

This all can be proved from the enrollments each month and pass out students.

For accounts, the students can calculate from the price list.

Even there are students who left AA and did better in other flying schools.

[training wheels]

overflying charges Aud 230

eesurendra, what do you mean by "overflying charges" ? I've never heard that term before.

[eesurendra]

I am one of the student from AA and in the court case as well.

AA asked us to pay extra course fee which we denied untill unless they hav shown the account statements for what we hav already paid.

Later on when we taken to court AA has send us notice from their lawyer that we hav to pay to AA which is given has overflown charges.
Even i dont understand by that because we didnt finish the full 200hrs( which i did 120hrs.)

[Fonz121]

The only thing I can connect "overfly" fees to is Enroute fees but that generally applies to IFR. Have you done much flying into towered aerodromes?

I agree that the instructors hate the management as well. having known a few of them who defected to other schools due to the horrid conditions.

[eesurendra]

I think overflown charges(which is given in court doc.) means that the amount in debt to AA.

[PlankBlender]

eesurendra, you have every right to know what exactly you're being charged. A line by line account statement that matches the records in your log book is a start, you should demand it in no uncertain terms, best do it in writing. If you're refused, ask for reasons and get a lawyer. Don't try to sue yourself (that has gone wrong already, who advised you on that course of actions?! Steer clear of that person!), get professional advice. Use a reputable lawyer who knows their contract law (have a look at the Aviation Trader and Aviation Advertiser websites, aviation lawyers advertise there regularly) or if you can't afford that, get free legal advice, there are services in every capital city that are usually staffed by law students supervised by experienced lawyers, I have used such a service myself, they give you a good idea about your position and options, and are free, so you have nothing to lose, really.

You or your parents will have signed a contract. It should say in that how much each lesson is or how services and payments for those services are handled. Personally, I cannot believe you wouldn't know exactly how your education is financed, but that's another matter. Surely the school will have a charge sheet where they detail the cost of their lessons and other services?! Paying in installments is not uncommon assuming there is some sort of discount arrangement (I used to pay for helicopter lessons at a reputable school in 10 hour blocks and got a 10% discount which was hundreds of dollars every time), but of course you need to know how much you're paying for what!

The hours and charges you quote do sound excessive except maybe for the 50k for 174 hours, a C150 dual hour would be around $280 at YBAF, someone here can surely give you an idea about current local rates. Again, you need to ask yourself how you got this far and never found out what the market/competition was like.. that you're here and looking for advice and information is a first step, my advice would be to find out as much as you can about the market, the school, the contract, your rights, and take control of the situation. It'll teach you a lesson you'll never forget, and contract law is very similar pretty much everywhere in the developed/anglo-saxon world and you can never know enough about how contracts work as you'll have important contractual ties all your life (employment, mortgage, loans, etc...)

Get a statement, do the math, see if you're out by more than a few grand, get competent legal advice, then decide what to do. Go to another school and pay for a 'check flight' with a Grade 1 or 2 instructor and get a professional opinion on whether you're as competent as you should be for the hours you've flown..

You might also want to ask yourself if you loved the flying enough to finish your training and make it a career, or if you just want to book it under lessons learned and move on..

[eesurendra]

plankblender, thanks for your kind advice.

If someone says that the school is good evryone comes there without enquiring anything else. I came here in 07 aug, the school is good. I could progress well in first 4 months from then everything started. I could not go to another school with leaving all the money I paid here. From oct 08 we started complaining about AA, then in Jan09 she cancelled my visa saying that i am not performing well. I hav went to Immigration for my visa which they revoked. I am still continuing my course in other school. I came here for my licence thats it. I dont hav idea or any knowledge if the college bluffs. Here the main thing is money. I planned for my course finnance, and now after paying for course without the licence, where should i go? Now its a burden on me and my parents to pay the fee to finish of my licence which i am doing in other school.

This legal advice we got from cfi of some school who is also a 3yr law student. Even we met some other lawyers for the action what we hav taken, they said its fine and they said it will cost if we want them to fight.
We applied for pro-bano and they accepted it. They asked us to represent ourself till the hearing date and give information to them up to date. they said when hearing date comes they will fight. We agreed for it. Theres only one day time for hearing date which they said its very short time to prepare for the case. Now they are saying that they will appeal for the case. We are in taking with them.

We claculated the account statement from the price list of AA and AA is in debt to us. But AA is saying that we are in debt to them.

We complained to Vetab, education department, they said they will take serious action if they find problems with AA. But till date their is no response from them. Its been 9 months till now.

[PA39]

The principals of AA are rude, beligerant, pretentious , pompous and very very incompetent. its all bottom line stuff with a care factor of -10.

[GA715]

eesurenda check your pm. :)

[das Uber Soldat]

Call me intriqued.

You say AA told you that you were not progressing well. You say you were. Easy way to estabslish that fact.

How many dual hours did it take you to go 1st solo? T/A solo, GFPT and PPL?

edit: assuming you got as far as PPL or GFPT of course.

[Fonz121]

das,

Not always an accurate indication of how good one's ability is. Ive known of another school where the students were made to fly more then necessary before being sent solo purely to get more $ out of them. Of course this is quite rare but can happen at an unscrupulous organisation.

[eesurendra]

I got my solo at 25hrs and training area solo at 29hrs.
I did my gfpt at 45hrs(15hrs command)
I got my ppl at 98hrs..

[training wheels]

I got my solo at 25hrs and training area solo at 29hrs.
I did my gfpt at 45hrs(15hrs command)
I got my ppl at 98hrs..

That looks close to the average time it takes most people to achieve those milestones, to me. Nothing excessive at all.

So how many hours did you have when you stopped flying with AA?

[Fonz121]

eesurendra,

Why did you do 15 hrs command for your GFPT?

[WIKI44]

eesurendra check your pm.

It's probably not a fantastic idea to be discussing issues that are pending litigation.
It won't take a genius to figure out who you are, and to possibly use any information in your posts against you or your mates.

[Xcel]

Pretty straight forward..

how many hours did you do? What was the hire rate?

How much did you pay?

Been through this with the other school run by a d.w. mind you that was fought over a cancellation fee and a nonconforming contract...

did you sign a contract regarding all this?

[bluesky300]

This is what Justice White had to say in the course of dismissing the statutory demand:

"In all cases the defendants' [the Indian Students'] claim was for damages for an alleged breach of contract. It would not have been seriously arguable that moneys were payable as a debt on the basis that there had been a complete failure of consideration. It is possible that in one or two cases there may have been an entitlement to claim some moneys by way of refund, although even that appears to me to be doubtful."

In other words, the allegations that have been made are described by the judge as "doubtful". I don't recall Four Corners mentioning that.

[andrewr]

There can be a big difference between what people would regard as fair or ethical, and what can be enforced through the courts - particularly if a contract was written by one party's lawyers, and designed to protect that party as much as possible.

To me it sounds like the contract may have been written in a way that avoids putting obligations on AA - so that even if the expected flight training wasn't provided, there might not be an obligation to provide a refund.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Not trying to defend either side, but a few ideas.

1) Remember dual flying is always more costly than solo. If you want to work out what you're entitled to, you need to find out what hours of flying in each type is included in the course cost. (e.g. 20hrs dual C152, 20hrs dual PA28 etc). Remember the 50k won't be ONLY for flying, things like maps/uniform/textbooks/tower fees etc usually are included in the cost of these full time courses. If you required more dual hours than the minimums (which is what the course fee will be based on) then you will more than likely overfly your allocated hours (the hours you have paid for in the basic fee), and have to pay extra. Go through your logbook, work out the $$ value of the flying you have done so far (dual cessna + Solo cessna etc) and see what comes up.

2) Does the course fee include accomodation? Or if you stay longer does the excess accomodation cost come out of your course fee, or is it an additional payment that you have to make? If you've been in Aus for longer than the course duration you will be having to pay extra for the extra accomodation somewhere.

3) Does AA charge students for not turning up to flights? Have you had to do additional theory or anything else which could have added to your cost?

Again not trying to make any implications, just give you some ideas on things to check about where the money may have gone.

Many agents seem to give the students an idea that the course fee is the only cost involved, and you will get a licence regardless. This isn't the case, the licencing system requires applicants to reach a certain standard, and if extra training is required to reach this standard (and it usually is if the course quotes the minimum required hours, which is becoming the norm for most of these schools) then there will be extra money involved.

As has been said, people on either side of this incident should be very, VERY careful about what is said in the public domain (including this forum). I have no affiliation with AA or the students in question.

[PlankBlender]

This is the way to do it, just sue the bank :ok:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/business/05loan.html?_r=1

[Fonz121]

Just heard on JJJ news that thier "training approval" has been revoked by the state government. Im assuming they were referring to VETAB.

[tiger19]

well I believe that the NSW Premier Nathan Reece is meeting with the Indian Foreign minister this week in Sydney. Something had to done to appeeze the Indians.

[tacostranostra]

I worked as an instructor for them, I quit because I had 18 full time students. I couldnt do a good job. to put a long story short, she got greedy. She didnt have the resources but was all too happy to keep taking applicants. What goes around comes around.

[desmotronic]

From ABC news:

A Sydney flying school that was accused of using unqualified trainers to teach Indian students how to fly, has been deregistered by the New South Wales Government.

Several students complained that they had paid thousands of dollars in tuition fees to the Bankstown Airport based Aerospace Aviation, but were left without qualifications.

The flying school says it will appeal against its deregistration in the New South Wales Administrative Decisions Tribunal.

It comes as New South Wales Premier, Nathan Rees, prepares to meet India's External Affairs Minister.

A spokesman for the Premier say Mr Rees will use the meeting to explain that the Government has set up a ministerial taskforce on international education -- designed to review the experiences of foreign students.

[bizzybody]

lol thats gotta hurt

[GA715]

Haha yeah I heard that too. Interesting times ahead.

Anyone interested in taking bets for the next school to be deregistered?
Haha I take that back, I shouldnt be saying things like that. :}

[GADRIVR]

After all is said and done, I worry about the instructors......overall, you would be hard pressed to find a better bunch of people. Close knit, generally very good at what they do and working under strain that shouldn't be there in the first place. But now for something completely different.:ok:
Chins up boys and girls...it's only for a little while longer. Then you get to go to an airline and say things like..."ah, GA days, when we REALLY used to fly"....or...."I miss the early mornings in Bankstown etc etc etc. Once there, you get divorced from your childhood sweetheart who has discovered that the industry essentially doesn't change, get remarried to a hot cart tart...and divorce again when she finds out you've been boffing her old work/flatmate (who was, lets face it; far hotter than the second wife any old way!!). You spend a few years in management, taking your leave on staff flights to Bangcock...oops Bangkok, for about ten years before taking a shine to that lovely little drinks waitress of dubious genetic beginnings in the "Wun yung boi" bar and bring her to begin a new married life in Australia, before...yep...you guessed it...you divorce again at the age of 65.
Seeing as all three wives have taken every cent you've ever earnt, you begin working as a crusty old sim instructor at the airline before being fired for "conduct unbecoming", move back to Bankstown where you work in Aerospace again for a time.
One day you don't turn up for work due to being detained at the YSSY perimeter fence...apparently you were yelling incomprehensible spit filled obsceneties at landing aircraft!!
Eventually you end up in the care of a limp wristed, twisted "hellfire club attending" palative care nurse who has his way with you for the final days of your life!
And all because you believed the brochure......sweet dreams!:E

[YPJT]

GADRIVER, That was bloody brilliant. Are you sure you are not a reincarnate of the long lost IF Snailtrails? :D

[sms777]

Can you stop using my resume as an example...........:D:D

[j3pipercub]

GADRVR,

Gold gold gold, love ya work

[GADRIVR]

But wait....:O
Just think of me as the Richard Bach of Australian GA.....possessing an Austrian accent and a gimp mask!!!
Stay tuned for more...it involves a trip to Hell, sauve , three schoolboys and a monkey
Always wanted to do a beatup of YSBK...perhaps nows the time?
All those in favour say Yay!:ok:

[Worrals in the wilds]

GADRIVR, that's awesome.
I think you should do motivational speaker work at training airports around the country. :E

[puff]

Worrals - Just imagine all the shocked looked and dropped jaws after such an realistic insight of the life of a pilot. Perhaps that should be put into a glossy brochure!!

Pure GOLD!

[Worrals in the wilds]

I have a (non-famous) professional actor friend with a similar tale of woe.
I reckon we could put them together and tour high schools with a demotivational careers seminar, complete with glossy brochures. It would be far more useful than the uni recruitment sharks and a much needed wakeup call for the 'off to Hollywood/gonna be an A380 skipper' brigade :E

Maybe a couple of ATCers would also be keen? :ouch:

Nothing wrong with dreams and full marks to those who got there (whether A380s or Tony award winners) but real life decisions are better off made with some facts attached!

[GADRIVR]

It's funny isn't it? Anything occupation or activity that is seen as a bit glam, a bit posh et al, seems to attract three basic sorts of individuals.
1. The genuine optimistic hopless dreamer.
2. The no idea wannabe.
3. The scheming opportunist or blood sucking parasite.
I guess the majority of us are quite firmly in the entrenched in the camp of the first category. Goodness knows why would we be involved in the first place if we didn't have that basic disposition??!! We put up with the crud which this industry throws at us because lets face it....it's a kinda groovy activity.:ok:

It always works out however that numbers two and three from the above seem perpetually attracted to one another. (possibly in the same way as two first cousins from Tasmania seemed destined to come together in some grotesque alliance!). The resulting confused union has the same effect on the industry as do the slackjawed befuddled cousins have on their home town...everybody knows it happened, everybody knows why it happened.....but no one wants to tell Grandpa due to his previous inaction on past occasions...and lets face it kiddies, I think we all know how drooling crazy old Grandpa came into existence in the first place eh?!

I've been around long enough to see whats happening at Bankstown and other airports repeated in some way shape or form in the rest of the industry for years now. You know it's not just the flying schools. Its the tinpot freight operators, grubby charter operators, no idea managers from airlines and corrupt skygod union reps....all seem to be cut from the same cloth. Get what you can and damn the others. She's right Jack, I'm OK.

And yet....if we took the above three categories and somehow kept those cousins from mixing in the first place......we wouldn't be where the industry is right now.
Whats that you say? "Ohhh GADRIVR, you're such a cynic and have obviously taken too many knocks. Perhaps you need a Bex, cup of tea and a good lie down!"
That may be true my cross eyed friend.
But at least I won't be dreaming about screwing my female kinfolk!:\
Good night darlings!!:E

[youbuet]

Are AA still flying or have they been shut down ?

[bizzybody]

they still hold an AOC with flight training approval so they can still instruct locals just not indians and so on

[GADRIVR]

I'm wondering if anything will change given the experience they've just had? (assuming of course everything we've read about AA in these pages are correct in some way shape or form)
One would hope so.....good bunch of employees that lot:ok:

[youbuet]

Would you still be able to get an advanced diploma ( credits for a degree ) .

[GADRIVR]

Heard last night that AA has gone into voluntary administration.:{
Collective chins up boys and girls. It will get better sooner than you all think.:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

hmmmmm

Their website is still up?

[bubble.head]

Their website is still up?

So is SFTC which went under last week.

[bizzybody]

yyyyyyyyyyep they are. Check the asic site. It shows the company is in voluntary administration

[Howard Hughes]

If a company is in 'voluntary administration', one would assume that they would continue trading, at least in the short term.

[HTFU]

Never would've picked CRASHAIR to be the last of the sausage factories standing:*