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Phot
24th Jul 2009, 01:09
Hi All,

I'm looking for some old pic of the first methods of do a track and balance.

The main one I'm looking for is one of the flag method, where they used a piece of canvas stretched between to poles then marked the blade tips with chalk. They then moved the canvas slowly into the path of the blade tip so the tips are just touching the canvas and did the track adjustments from the chalk markings on the canvas.

If any body has anything please let me know, there might be a small finders fee if the image is hi res enough.

Thanks

Phot

helofixer
24th Jul 2009, 02:10
Not sure if you have access to any Bell hard copy maintenance manuals, I do recall some black and white pics of the flag track method on L model, possibly B model. Im on vacation till next monday. I have no access to the manuals or the CD's. If no one else helps you, when I get back to work, I will see if I can find you some pictures.

Ive never done it or seen it done, but damn that looks dicey for sure. And I thought I hated using the RADS.

SASless
24th Jul 2009, 02:17
Hey fellas....for a long time that was the only way....a bit of grease pencil and a tracking flag...or a bit of masking tape stretched between a couple of sticks.

For tail rotors it was a stick with a grease pencil taped to it....and slowly poked into the tail rotor.

There was a technique to swinging the tracking flag into the blades....and not getting the pole smacked out of your hands the wrong way. The wrong way could get you knackered in a split second!

oldpinger
24th Jul 2009, 03:56
Phot,

not a photo, but have a look at this link-
Rotor **Blade **Tracking (http://www.tpub.com/content/aviationgenmaint/TM-1-1500-204-23-5/css/TM-1-1500-204-23-5_68.htm)

or this one with the diagram
Table 3-2. *Helicopter Vibration Types (http://www.tpub.com/content/aviationgenmaint/TM-1-1500-204-23-5/css/TM-1-1500-204-23-5_69.htm)

Quiet day at the office so time to surf the interweb!

stinkychicken
24th Jul 2009, 06:58
Sorry don't have any pics but have done it with cardboard stuck to a broom handle.

I remember a clasic bush fix for the B47 with a bounce, wrap tape around the end of one blade if the bounce is worse try the other blade and add till the bounce is gone then pull the tape off scew it up then take the blade tip cap off and stuff it inside.

Smooth as:ok:

Fareastdriver
24th Jul 2009, 07:33
You can track and balance ceiling fans in the same way. Especially after they have had a few beer cans thrown at them.

Flyt3est
24th Jul 2009, 07:36
A few years back I was qualifying an RTB system on a Mil-8, I was there with the latest and greatest electronic wizardry, but the primary method was the tracking flag method, i.e. chalk on the blades, and some poor sod stood out front with a rubber flap attached to a broom handle.

Oddly enough the ground track carried out with the man with the stick actually left the airacraft smooth as a cat pi$$ing on glass in fwd flight.. ergo, the techy RTB system was pointless!!:}

I'm afraid I don't have any photos though.. sorry.:ugh:

TukTuk BoomBoom
24th Jul 2009, 08:55
Yep that'd be right
Ive seen them put a huge patch on one tail rotor blade on a Mi-17 and when i asked how they were going to balance it i got the traditional russian response.."Is strong helicopter, no problem!"

breakscrew
24th Jul 2009, 11:59
The Army Historic Flight at Middle Wallop still use the flag method to track and balance their helicopters. You may be lucky and see them from the Museum of Army Flying if you want a photo. If you want to talk to them, they are at the Weston Heli-days this weekend.

Eng AW139
24th Jul 2009, 15:39
In the Bell 204 M&O manual page 2-79 is a picture in Black and White sowing flag trackinh of the main rotor of the Ball 204. Not sure how to post it on Pprune.

helofixer
25th Jul 2009, 03:00
(Totally off topic)
I love messing with my ceiling fans when they need some T&B work. I usually start by using a ruler touching the ceiling and passing the blade paths right next to it to find the blade that is flying higher or lower than the others on average (power off of course :}). Most ceiling fan blades attach to their grips via 3 screws in a Y shape. If you have one flying lower than the rest, add a washer between the blade and its mount at the 2 screws closest to the tip. If its high, add one washer between the blade and its mount closest to the fan motor to lower its tip path. As always keep your blade leading edges clean and pay attention to dust build up on the tops of the blades. Ive seen balance weight method in some high end ceiling fan manuals, but I am a strong believer in getting them in track by adjusting tip path will fix most of your ceiling fan problems. Now if only RADS would come out with some script files for a 52 inch Hunter.

SASless
25th Jul 2009, 15:20
Pray God Hunter never goes to the 500D/E fan head!

mfriskel
25th Jul 2009, 15:34
Ceiling fans don't go into forward flight, so even a 500 head on a fan wouldn't be too much work :) Just keep those centering bearings clean. Would that fan be a model HU500 for Hunter 500?

Rigga
25th Jul 2009, 16:47
Used to do it on Whirlwinds (three Main blades) up to the early 1990's - using a tripod on top of which was a turnable pole. Total height up to about 12 foot tall.
On the side of the pole were two perpendicular legs about 2.5 to 3-foot apart between which was a 4-6 inch strip of canvas mounted on 4 springs.
We would colour the blade tips Red/Yellow/Blue with Wax Crayon. We would also stick masking tape to the edge of the Canvas (so that we could see our marks and not all the others!)
We would set up the positions of the tripod feet on the floor and the approximate angle of the pole to the blade prior to running up the heli (holding up the blade to meet the flag) that took a lot of guesswork out of it!
Jockey would run the heli up and give us the Thums-up when he was ready. We would move the Tripod/Pole assy into place and he would hold the Disk at the mid-canvas level until we'd either told him to stop - or the tape disappeared with someone chasing after it!
After a couple fo ruins we could achieve splits as little as 1/8th inch. Then send it for Flight Checks (using a Scientifica Atlanta clockwork mechanism with Red "wax" tape - but thats another story!)

Happy Memories!
Rigga

THM
26th Jul 2009, 21:06
Phot,

Try The Helicopter Museum in Weston-super-Mare they have some original equipment on site.


The Helicopter Museum. (http://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk)

flyer43
26th Jul 2009, 21:55
Many moons ago, on a small island in the Caribbean, a Bell 212 was being tracked with the pole & flag method. Things went a little awry when the flag was gently moved into the path of the blades. One rotor blade contacted one of the metal tangs to which the springs were attached stretching the canvas flag between the two tangs. The pole was smacked sideways and the two engineers attending the flag were rather shaken.
The helicopter was immediately shut down in order to inspect for any damage to the rotor blades. All eyes were focused on the blades as they slowed down, nobody was aware that in a corner of the hardstanding, an engineer ( I think it was the local chief engineer) was laying in a pool of blood having been cut severely, high up on his inner thigh by the piece of metal that flew away from the tracking pole.
Thankfully, somebody spotted him in time and appropriate medical attention was given.
I can't remember whether the blades were damaged, but this episode just goes to prove that the this method has some hidden dangers!

Somebody else on this forum may have a better memory of this than me?

F43

Exmek
27th Jul 2009, 07:55
Hi Phot,
Just knew I had a photo somewhere. :ok:

This was yours truly on the good ship SS Manhattan in the Spring of 1970, on our way through the North Atlantic to the North West Passage.

One blade 'pocket' had been damaged while the S 62 was secured on the helideck in high winds. Caused by the blade deflecting down and then snapping up against the 'tie down' (a canvas bag and cord device).

New blade tracked fairly easily, but we did have to ask the (ship's) captain if he would please sail into wind while we used the flag! :eek:

I have pm'd you in case you would like a larger copy of the pic.







http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s88/Emgeekay/File0004-2-2.jpg

Saint Jack
28th Jul 2009, 02:44
flyer43

I must pre-date you at Galeota, when I first arrived there the fleet consisted of 1 x Whirlwind, 1 x Bell 204B and 1 x Bell 206A. Later in my contract, it must have been about late '74 or early '75, the Whirlwind and the 204B were replaced by a couple of Bell 205A-1's (one used machine and one factory-new). As these were single-engine helicopters flying offshore they were fitted with fixed-floats at Galeota prior to being put into service. Inevitably the day came when we had to track the main rotor after some work had been performed and we used a tracking flag for this. I should have known that a Bell on fixed-floats with a possible lateral out-of-balance condition would be a bugger to track with a flag and I was right. I remember moving the flag inward very, very carefully and that I was successful with one blade but the next one sliced right through the canvas and almost tore the flag out of my hands. Luckily, no damage to myself or the helicopter and even more luckily, the notorious chief-engineer-with-no-tolerance-for-mistakes was on time-off that day. Lesson learnt.

unstable load
29th Jul 2009, 00:13
Quite a hi-tech flag there! The one we used was a straight-ISH stick cut out of the neighbouring jungle and the remains of a cardboard box held together by a few yards of packing tape.
Still worked pretty well, though!:D

JohnDixson
29th Jul 2009, 18:15
Exmek, the flag in the pic of the S-62 was exactly the type used on the S-64 and S-65 when I arrived at Sikorsky in mid 1966. Needed six different colored crayons though, and when some of the blades moved around a bit, as happened when the wind was blowing and unsteady, it became a real pain in the dupa for the crewchiefs. Electronic trackers were just being tried out and the ground crews were VERY happy to 86 the flags.

Thanks,
John Dixson

Exmek
30th Jul 2009, 07:57
John D.,

We flew the S-62 from Sikorsky's facility at ...Stratford? prior to joining the Manhattan at Newport News.

Here is a link.
Planes and Choppers Photos - Sikorsky S-62 (http://www.planesandchoppers.com/picture/number162.asp)

It had received a good refurbish after spending around 48 hours floating in the Atlantic off the coast of West Africa, downed it seems by contaminated fuel loaded at Dakar International Airport.

Yep, in later years we used electronic track and balance gear on 212's in Abu Dhabi.

Exmek

wobble2plank
30th Jul 2009, 10:14
I remember witnessing the 'accurate' track of the blades using the chalk and flag method on a Wasp back in the 80's at Portland.

What amuses me is that the blades continued to be marked with the same colours as the chalk even when the method died out.

The inaccuracies were mainly down to the most junior 'bod' being the poor sap with the pole. In his ensuing panic the pole was rarely held steady! It was difficult to achieve on board as the rubber strip would often be flung into the sea! Added to the above problems the boat (I was never a ship driver!) movement added its own problems. As the old beasties were so damn clunky and could put up with far more abuse than the 'sensitive' choppers of today the 'belt and braces' approach worked rather well.

The chalk was then replaced by a 1 inch square numbered flag on each blade tip with a strobe light connected to a microswitch on the head which gave a 4R/5R (dependant upon the number of blades obviously) flash that enabled the Grubber to see 'static' numbers with track and lead lag and write down the adjustments to each blade based on how high the flags were relevant to each other or how far forward or back. The blade adjustments still used the colour code from the chalk days though! E.g. 'Blue blade 1 flat down'. Was great fun at night, just like being with John Travolta in the disco!

Finally they were all replaced with some sort of electronic blade and track gizmo that even took the tail and the battery balance into account!

Various straight and level flights at differing speeds gave the reading. Nowhere near as much fun but it did seem to work.

Sorry, no pictures, just reminiscing! :ok:

John Eacott
30th Jul 2009, 10:30
The chalk was then replaced by a 1 inch square numbered flag on each blade tip with a strobe light connected to a microswitch on the head which gave a 4R/5R (dependant upon the number of blades obviously) flash that enabled the Grubber to see 'static' numbers with track and lead lag and write down the adjustments to each blade based on how high the flags were relevant to each other or how far forward or back. The blade adjustments still used the colour code from the chalk days though! E.g. 'Blue blade 1 flat down'. Was great fun at night, just like being with John Travolta in the disco!

For some reason the original reflectors didn't have numbers, but instead had /, \, -, | and (IIRC) O. We carried a strobe onboard the Sea Kings during 4 hour Jumpex/CASEX and took readings when the mood suited, giving the results to the grubbers when we returned for them to puzzle over and come up with a solution :hmm: Bit of pain at night, it certainly didn't do much for the night vision but tended to be a lot easier to see the reflectors and estimate the track than during sunny daylight. Just imagine trying to estimate by how many inches one reflector was higher or lower than the others some 20-30 feet away, then suitably jotting it all down for "analysis" during debrief :=

The flag tracking (Whirlwind/Wessex) was an exercise best participated in from the cockpit or (better still) the ACRB. Just watching the black hand gang rotating the flag into the disc gave me the heebies :eek:

dean.geiselhart
12th Nov 2009, 18:14
Looking for Helicopter pictures of M/R and T/R track and balance using the flag and pole method.

Luther Sebastian
17th Apr 2016, 08:07
John Fay's book (I suppose it was the fifties version of Bailey) has a picture of a Sikorsky / Westland R-4 being tracked that way IIRC. I think it was actually in the hover.

John Eacott
17th Apr 2016, 08:15
Here's an old one of a JetRanger track from 1968 via an engineer chum :ok:

mtoroshanga
27th Apr 2016, 10:50
We used to track Bell47s using a paint brush dipped in grease and adjusting on that

vfr440
27th Apr 2016, 14:37
Yes, I remember that as a young apprentice (and being shouted at too!) :sad:

Rotorgoat8
21st May 2016, 01:12
We used to wrap bubble wrap around the top 2 1/2 feet of a 12 foot pole until we got it about four inches thick then completely wrap that with duct tape. Pick a point in the pilots view (10 or 2 O'clock) and bring a blade to that point and set the pole vertically on the ground with the wrapped duct tape just touching the blade tip. Then we marked the spot on the ground, put a red and green grease pencil (can you even buy those these days?) mark on the respective blade and laid the pole down while they started and warmed up. Once they had it up to full RPM we would raise the pole ever so slowly until we got a touch with the blade tip then lower it back to see if we got good marks. Sometimes we could rotate the pole 90* and get a second touch. Then shut it down and make a correction and do it all again. There were lots of conditions to play with such as doing a low RPM check then a high RPM check with tabs zeroed to see if you wanted to tweak a tab or make a PC link adjustment.
The Strobex was a Godsend when it showed up.

LRP
21st May 2016, 19:50
had a similar experience after replacing a blade in Evanston, WY over 30 years ago. Used a strip of packing foam, duct tape, and the mech bought a box of crayons from some sort of "dollar" store. You do what you gotta do.

Riggerz
22nd Mar 2017, 08:11
We used to do it frequently on Whirlwinds & Wessex. Since the blade tracking could be affected by wind gusting, on one occasion, at Leconfield, in 1971, we did it INSIDE No 5 hangar, with hangar doors fully open, and a Mk6 Alvis 6-wheel fire tender in attendance.

It was done by riggers, (airframe tradesmen), and often in conjunction with post-scheduled maintenance runs. I recall one such was in mid-winter, on a snow-covered tie-down pan. It went on for some time, the riggers freezing from the rotor-induced blizzard. I was an engine fitter at the time, so opened the engine access door, while it was running, and basked, to the riggers' chagrin, in the warm airflow around the efflux, all the time smiling like a cheshire cat! - NOBODY loves a smart-ar$e!

mikemmb
24th Mar 2017, 16:18
Can remember many moons ago, late 50's early 60's (still in short trousers!) watching someone at Southend with a bucket of whitewash and a long handled brush tracking a helicopter (try as I might cannot remember what).
He simple loaded the brush with whitewash, stood underneath the whirling blades and poked the brush up till it touched a blade.
Then they stopped the engine, tweaked the (white) blade, wiped the blade clean and repeated the process.