US to deploy JDAM equipped Super Tucanos...

[Yeoman_dai]

Defense Tech: Secret Program Works to Field SEAL Plane (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004941.html)

In light of all the comments made on here about the need for a cheap effective aircraft for COIN, maybe here you have the answer...

Views please

[Co-Captain]

At the rate we're going through Tonkers :E:oh:

[mr fish]

quote,"WARHEADS ON FOREHEADS", what a charming phrase:D

[Lima Juliet]

I wondered what was going to happen to Linton's "Tincans" when MFTS came along...

:}LJ

[fallmonk]

Would more A/OA-10's hogs not be better value for money?
obviously getting new frames might be expensive as i imagine the production line is long closed???

Also the AC-130s are they not better "bang per buck" ?

obviously if its cheap n chearfull you want this is probably the best option !

[althenick]

Cheap isnt always bad. If it works like the intruder did in Vietnam then why not?

The question is this - will it be as effective as what is in theatre already, there isonly one way to find out.

[fallmonk]

Sorry for slipping of the subject there but when doing a wee bit of digging.I came across this about the A-10.

"The A-10 is not exported to any other countries but it's believed that Turkey obtained at least 50 A-10 airframes."

A-10/OA-10 Thunderbolt 2 (http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/8629/thunder.htm)

But cant find any other net storys to back it up. So is there any truth to this ? I dont think so but thought i would ask the more informed than me

[Melchett01]

I would be interested to see how quickly they can get them out on to ops. I can but only imagine it will be a hell of a lot quicker than our procurement processes which seem to hark back to WW2

From what I can gather, our procurement seems to be run along the lines of some boffin/engineer/company having an idea, pushing it out and regardless of its utility, it is accepted / rejected solely on the whim of someone in MOD with scant regard for the opinions of the end users.

[Yeoman_dai]

I'd just put forwards that their cheap, to maintain and crucially, operate, small logs footprint, can operate further forwards nearer FOBS than higher performance jets, can loiter longer, have two crew to deal with the flying/surveillance workload, has a good mixture of big bang JDAM's and show of force .50 cals, and a excellent sensor fit.

Seems perfect to be honest. I'd just like to see the final unit cost.

[Buster Hyman]

Have they solved the issue with wake turbulance from the missile launch? ;):p

[BEagle]

:ok: for the sensor suite and weapon potential.

But single engine? Wouldn't the OV-10D Bronco be a better platform?

[Rigger1]

How many Hawk T1s are we about to retire, most with good airframe life left in them .... a new wing, easy to fit on the Hawk - 6 bolts, already designed for the T2, a simple armament system, hey presto, a cheap effective counter insurgency aircraft.

We have the spares and support systems in place, most of our front line pilots have experience in it, it's fast, manoeuvrable, cheap to operate ..... you get my drift.

[andyy]

I thought that "our" Tucanos" didn't have the strengthend wings for hardpoints, so we couldn't do the same thing, even if we wanted to?

[NURSE]

Have seen a couple of threads in other places talking about the "Return" of the OV10. New builds to the original design with updated avionics. Would be an interesting project.

[TEEEJ]

The U.S. is the only operator of the A-10. Along with Turkey the other country that apparently expressed an interest was Jordan. Neither country received any examples.

TJ

[Gainesy]

I thought that "our" Tucanos" didn't have the strengthend wings for hardpoints, so we couldn't do the same thing, even if we wanted to?

I believe that is correct.

[TEEEJ]

Wouldn't the Hawk T.1 be limited by its current engine in the likes of Afghanistan? Especially carrying a load? The general consensus was that the Jaguar could only have alleviated the burden on the Harrier force due to the limitations of load carrying and extreme temperatures. Wouldn't the Hawk T.1 carrying a useful load struggle?

TJ

[GPMG]

Flying over a 'normal' enemies territory with a single engine is one thing, flying of the Talebans is a bit different.

Think I would also rather sit in a nice big titanium 'bathtub' and have the ability to lose a rudder and elevator or part of the wing.

[larssnowpharter]

Have seen a couple of threads in other places talking about the "Return" of the OV10. New builds to the original design with updated avionics. Would be an interesting project.

Philippine Air Force is currently running a programme to zero time all its OV10s. Not sure of the avionics but word is new guns, props and gearboxes.

Should be a good piece of kit.

[Yeoman_dai]

Any links for this new build bronco?

[Wiley]

Let's see... cheap and cheerful airframe relatively easy to operate and maintain and not likely to cause any imbalance in regional air power stakes should its eventual operator not remain on what I'll call "our" side.

My guess would be that after initial introduction in theatre, they'll be handed over to the Afghans.

[L J R]

The Reaper has JDAM already, and no one needs to be in it!

The North Spin - News: JDAM Adds Precision Punch to the Reaper (http://www.thenorthspin.com/news09/031009usaf.html)

[Nate26]

This is a limited program to lease some airplanes for a few specific customers. The A10 aint commin' back. Fairchild has long since shuttered their doors and Boeing wants to sell new airplanes, not parts for someone elses airplane. The OV-10 died the slow death because in order to get enough to do anything with one of the services would have to give up the sexy jets to get more of the ignoble prop planes. That of course means less money to boot. So which branch will be first in line to cut thier prestige and budget? Surprisingly there are no takers

Of course there is the US Army, but they cant get their head out of their collective buts long enough to get a new ARH when no one is trying to stop them. Their is no way the USAF would let them get another fix wing with ordinance, hell the USAF just back-doored them on the Spartan intra-theater transport!

[Yeoman_dai]

Defense Tech: COIN Air Force on its Way (http://www.defensetech.org/archives/004945.html#comments)

Dedicated COIN Wing to be formed. Good idea?

[kharmael]

Single pilot Firefly260 with cannon of some variety?

Anyone?
:suspect:

[Gravelbelly]

Except.... this rather interesting PPT would seem to indicate that the Tucanos are being bought as a much cheaper way to expand FAC training (because a lot more people suddenly need it), rather than as an armed asset for use in theatre.

USN Irregular Warfare presentation (pdf) (http://www.navexfor.com/uploads/NX-Irregular_Warfare_Office.pdf)

It doesn't appear to be a bid to field a dedicated COIN aircraft; any more than No.1 PTS using Skyvan was a bit to introduce light AT.

Sorry to disappoint the "spads and hogs and big guns R k3wl" crowd...

[melmothtw]

"Flying over a 'normal' enemies territory with a single engine is one thing, flying of the Talebans is a bit different."

The Harriers managed it for 5 years (and still do if you count the USMC)

[orca]

GPMG

JFH flew for five years in theatre on one engine, our USMC brethren still do so.

[Muppet Show]

CAS' comments on this are interesting:

RUSI Lord Trenchard Lecture (http://www.raf.mod.uk/role/rusilordtrenchardmemoriallecture2009.cfm)

This level of adaptability is provided by the Tornado’s innate design and configuration concept, which highlights the dangers of relying on more limited, niche capabilities, narrowly configured for one type of warfare. For example, it has been argued that a small, turbo-prop, aircraft would provide a cheap attack capability in Afghanistan. But its utility, and arguably survivability, would be markedly reduced in comparison with fast jets, such as the Tornado and Typhoon, because of increased vulnerability to less sophisticated enemy weapon systems, their reduced speed would limit response across the battlespace, and their more limited weaponry options and payload would reduce the deliverable effect at the precise time and place they were most needed. More importantly though, any such aircraft could not be used in other sorts of conflict with any confidence in their survival, such as when our Tornados and Harriers were called upon to operate against highly effective and integrated air defence systems in the Balkans and Iraq. Our relatively small size means that we simply cannot afford to implement specialized procurement strategies that establish force elements that are appropriate only for one sort of operation; the risk is that we end up equipped to fight the last operation or war and not the next.