Question regarding seating idea...

[Locarno]

Okay, I've searched around for an answer to the following question, yet it doesn't seem to have ever been asked before!

I know it may sound like a strange question and you're gut instinct is to say "No" straight away....
Okay: Is it possible to have seats, for passenger use, installed into the cargo hold of, for example a 747?

Obviously there are a tremendous amount of ramifications of attempting something like this; legal, structural and not least kitting it out to make it less of a hold and more of a passenger cabin.
Even just with one isle and a few seats and no cargo hold whatsoever...is it possible?

Thanks for any, and all help :)

Jason.

[Cough]

Fitting the required number of emergency exits would be a major modification that probably makes it uneconomic.

[Locarno]

Yeah I had thought of that, but is it possible to fit the emergency exits?
I'm not too bothered about the expense, I would expect it to roll into the tens of millions, but I firmly believe my idea (which is more than just seats in a hold) would be economically viable.

Unfortunately, aircraft structure is far from my strongpoint.

[Donkey497]

Apart from not having any emergency exits, having looked at the 747 freighter you have three separate areas, all without windows and all a maximum of about 5 foot 6 high (at best) internally. I would suspect that if you fitted these out with seating there would be a fair reduction in this headroom.

In your favour is that these are all heated and pressurised, but have no in-flight access routes. However, the complete lack of reference points would be a severe impediment to anyone unfortunate to be in them during flight. Just think how uncomfortable it feels to be in a lift with a broken indicator panel when it is in motion, and that is in a protected environment accelerating in only one direction, now think how unpleasant iot would be to be in a sealed chamber accelerating in three dimensions. This would be an effective recipe for a true "vomit comet".

Why, other than to challenge the number of seats in an A380 would you want to put seats into these compartments?

[Locarno]

Okay that is a very valid point. I have come up with an idea that could potentially be so revolutionary in air travel. Although you can understand that I'm not going to post this idea publically on pprune or otherwise. I do appreciate that it's difficult that I'm asking for help on a subject that I'm giving very few details away.

Ofcourse, as I have pondered this idea for many hours, and looked into from many different angles I have found quite a few problems, and within 2 replies to this thread I've already found some more.

So more questions:

Is it then possible to make the "sealed container" accessable in flight by means of a staircase nexto the already existing one?
I mentioned earlier a 747 type, but the scenario exists for the A380 too...

Now the headroom is a huge problem, that I didn't think of. At the risk of sounding now completely ridiculous - is it possible to move the entire main deck flooring up a tad?

Okay, I know many of you reading this are now thinking that it's become a ridiculous idea that could never work, but please, bear with me.

Also, does anyone know of anywhere I could find the dimensions of the 747 or A380. I've found loads of dimensions such as fuselage length etc, but I ideally would need a floor plan with dimensions. Anyone know where to come by something like this.


Anyways, I send my apologies if it sounds ridiculous but all big things start with just one small idea. Having researched many an entrepreneur this is how they started.
Well, maybe not so much on pprune, but you get my point.
Thanks again for any and all help.

[Donkey497]

OK, I think I know in general terms what you are thinking about. & to be honest I've thought about something similar myself.

As far as making the sealed containers accessible, the answer would probably be no, not without major mods to the containers themselves and probably the loading/restraint systems as they are basically made to fit very closely into the specific shape of the hold, and to pass through a specific size of cargo door.

Can you change the headroom by moving the floor up? I'd say that one falls into the "definite maybe" category. The current fuselage cross member locations will have been analysed to death by classical and computer based stress analysis and placed in their current locations as optimal for stress distribution for specific loading cases. If you change [reduce] what the load limits are going to be by taking on SLF only rather than freight, then the locations of the cross members could be changed, but you'd need to go through the analysis cycle again, as well as actually re-building the aircraft if the answers came out OK. This is where major expense would come in as I strongly suspect that the fuselage would need to be completely held in a jig to remove the existing cross members and repladce them with alternative ones at different locations.

As for the dimensions, you might find this link useful....

FlyingCorral.com - 747 Aircraft Information (http://www.aerofex.com/flyingcorral/747.asp)

Like I say, I think I know what you are thinking about & it's probably viable for some aspects, but I think that the commercial aspects of the changes would outweigh the maybe limited benefits. A better bang for your buck might be to think about a standard ISO container in transit by sea.

[LH2]

I have come up with an idea

Yep. And so have the Chinese. Theirs is simply to have people travel standing in the cabin, as you do on the Metro.

[Locarno]

LH2 - Are Ryanair not trying to do that currently?

And Donkey - thanks a lot for taking the time to reply in depth, it's really appreciated.
Sea travel? Certainly had it's advantages, although getting to New York in a few days as opposed to a few hours seems almost unthinkable now.

Any ideas how (for example) Airlines start up?
Ryanair must have had such a tremendously huge starting up cost, which all spawned from one idea. Admittedly the idea had already been established (by SWA?)...Actually nevermind - scrap that, thats for me to work out I guess.


Have just hit the largest snag. It wont work if I can't have access into the hold during flight, yet every problem had a solution.
I suppose I'll sleep on that one and see if any brainwaves occur!

[MarkerInbound]

Somewhere I remember a photo of a lower lounge on a 747 or DC-10. Think it may have been a production mockup. It did have a low ceiling and not much room, spiral stair to the main deck. One of those things that didn't go too far like the American piano lounge.

[ion_berkley]

Plenty precedent for use of the cargo deck (and overhead) in terms of internal access. External is a different problem.
Photo Album: "Crew Rest" | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?album=11119)

[Big Bad D]

Many containerised lower-deck (cargo compartment) crew rest areas are unable to be used for takeoff and landing due to restricted access/escape routes and the inability to evacuate in required time due to need to first climb to main cabin deck.

Therefore the idea for use of "container" modules for permanent passenger seating capacity would require significant new design to enable a number of containers to be joined together and so allow multiple escape routes, and also almost inevitably requiring installation of lower deck emergency external exits in the fuselage and connections to the containers to allow access from the container to the outside of the aircraft.

The major redesign of any existing aircraft to satisfy this certification issue would almost certainly make it unviable financially, if not also structurally.

[silverware]

@ Jason,

There are pallets with seats mounted available that fit in the usual tracks for cargopallets.
I know of one Dutch company that makes these.

[Rainboe]

You can't take up hold space for other uses and not allow for baggage. The amount of baggage is unbelievable. A full 747 will have almost full holds. Where will the extra bags go? As for raising floor levels, the cost is astronomical.

How would you like to be down in a baggage hold container in an emergency evacuation? Sticking seats down there with low ceiling levels, and you have not considered the curved fuselage taking out half the floor area? And no exits- still to be installed. Whatever your idea- it's a non starter I'm afraid!

[singpilot]

And I figured his idea was for a 'sleeper' 747. Like the trains of old.

[jimjim1]

singpilot
And I figured his idea was for a 'sleeper' 747. Like the trains of old.

SNCF - Corail Lunea over night train service from SNCF (http://www.sncf.co.uk/coraill.asp)
...

Sleepers (double or single)
First class couchettes (4 berth)
Standard class couchettes (6 berth)SNCF are of course the French national railway.

[Locarno]

The costs of aircraft are astronomical anyway!

You could buy a new 747 for about $160mil, or you could buy a 20 year old one for $5mil (or £1 from BA a few years back) and kitting it out with doors etc would surely cost less than a further $155mil...

Anyways, it does indeed look like the plan for the hold is a non-starter, however some bright-spark has already invented an alternative! The 747-8 VIP, complete with SkyLoft! It gives that extra space (taking it upto within a whiff of the size of an A380) and doesn't have to worry about cutting new doors into the fuselage. Winner.

Oh and whoever mentioned above about baggage - my plan doesn't need bags.

All I need now is $200,000,000. Anyone has this, or a 747, please, don't hesistate to contact me :)

I'm actually constructing a business plan to put forward to Virgin, they look like the only financially viable option.

[muduckace]

The costs of aircraft are astronomical anyway!

You could buy a new 747 for about $160mil, or you could buy a 20 year old one for $5mil (or £1 from BA a few years back) and kitting it out with doors etc would surely cost less than a further $155mil...

Anyways, it does indeed look like the plan for the hold is a non-starter, however some bright-spark has already invented an alternative! The 747-8 VIP, complete with SkyLoft! It gives that extra space (taking it upto within a whiff of the size of an A380) and doesn't have to worry about cutting new doors into the fuselage. Winner.

Oh and whoever mentioned above about baggage - my plan doesn't need bags.

All I need now is $200,000,000. Anyone has this, or a 747, please, don't hesistate to contact me http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

I'm actually constructing a business plan to put forward to Virgin, they look like the only financially viable option.



Are you planning on short flights? Where do you put the carry on baggage, everyone has some? Unless you are flying hight limited people your "business plan" is not a great idea.

Retrofitting a 747 to supply environmentaly comfortable temperatures in the belly is a task beyond my immagination. I know the FWD belly of some DC-10's possibly the tristar and 747 has been used for a galley in the past but comfort was not in mind.

A bit of aviation financials, the longer the aircraft is designed to fly usually relates to less cycles to get the most out of it, this works against your idea.

To create a cabin environment in a cargo area is costly, would require costly modifications...,locking provisions for the cargo doors in excess of existing, environmental as mentioned above and the killer... Egress is the other factor, there are strict time limits relating to how quickly the pax can get out of an aircraft... Ohh, ditching, gear failure, runway overshot... All these scenarios pretty much kill your belly pax.

I just don't see it ever happening.

Not to mention that the only reason the 747 never went full double decker was the regulatory fears of killing 600+ pax in one shot by the FAA. The A380 still stands to fail as it has a limited market and several customers have allready pulled out.

Being the businesman you are I would think you would be careful not to devuldge your "business plan", doubt you have one as I can not immagine a market for for your idea that has undoubtebly been pondered for decades.

[dkaarma]

I'm sure this post is of no use to you, but I recall reading an article about a company that used their plane as a passenger service by day and a freighter by night.

I think it was a freighter config and they just slid the seats in and locked them down to convert it to passenger ops.

[sb_sfo]

I'm sure this post is of no use to you, but I recall reading an article about a company that used their plane as a passenger service by day and a freighter by night.

I think it was a freighter config and they just slid the seats in and locked them down to convert it to passenger ops.

Would that be United with the 727QC?

[Junkflyer]

Aloha Airlines used to do that with 737-200's. All the seats would be pulled out and a cargo net installed after a days flying so they could fly freight at night. It used to take about 20-25 minutes to do a conversion.

[Big Bad D]

Similarly for the BAe 146 QC (Quick Change) where normal passenger seat rows, installed on cargo pallets, could be loaded and locked into place on the main cargo deck.

[captjns]

A number of carriers used to convert their day pax jets into night cargo jets. Eastern had pretty good results with their 727-100s with this as they had, I think 9 pallets pre-built passenger seats. UPS tried charter passenger service which went by the wayside as quickly as it started.

Not only do you incur an expense for the conversion, but there would be a loss of useful load, and space for overhead storage, and passenger service units, and additional lavatories, a cold galley area, added zone temperature system, just to name a few items.

[Locarno]

Thanks everyone for the input, it has been extremely helpful.

So yeah, I've determined that venturing into the hold just wont be that viable, excluding maybe for crew rest or additional storage or something like that.

I'd love to be able to tell you exactly what my idea is - I really would, but I'm sure you can all understand why I wont. However, I'm going to go ahead with the planning of it, (excluding the cargo bay part) and hopefully within a short time I'll be back here asking for feedback on the full idea.

Oh and it's okay, I'm not going to be messing about with the cycles of a 747, it a long range aircraft - I'll leave it at that :)

Thanks again, for all your input.

[Re-Heat]

Now the headroom is a huge problem, that I didn't think of. At the risk of sounding now completely ridiculous - is it possible to move the entire main deck flooring up a tad?

The most successful entrepreneurs do the same business that existing companies do, only better...

I am sceptical that anything along the lines you suggest would be profitable, and am sceptical that it would not have been considered and discarded by others already.

Cargo holds are extremely valuable for cargo - do not underestimate the revenues earned from that space as it is not unused.

To convert a 747 to three decks, you would face uneconomic costs of deck raising (it is not a void), air conditioning movements, building in emergency egress, and finally sourcing an aircraft.

There is a reason that old aircraft are uneconomic to fly further (heavy maintenance check costs become uneconomically high).

Finally, if your idea is that good, it would be unreplicatable. As James Caan has frequently said: if an idea can be copied easily, it is just not that good...

[Locarno]

Good points well made.

However I disagree about the unreplicatable thing.
I mean, I'm struggling to think of anything that is unreplicatable...

Just look at LCCs. It's a brilliant idea, did the guy who invented it well-ish (Can't remember his name at this second) and it's done Ryanair, Ezy and many other LCCs really well.
So I don't neccessarily agree with that, but granted, it would be nice.


As for why it's never been done before? I am struggling with that one. I have presented this to a few training captains, ex-pilots and instructors and they all think it's a great idea that they've never heard of being attempted before.

During my research I have come accross a Boeing Start-up help team, I was finish completing my business plan and forward it to them. I guess at that stage I will find out if it has ever been attempted before!

[MAMMY]

I seem to remeber a german charter company had a lower deck
lounge fitted in Tri Stars , 1970s possible.

[chornedsnorkack]

OK, let´s list the known widebody human uses of cargo hold.

Classical DC-10-10 and Tristar 1 had standard lower hold galleys. Upper galleys and cargo holds through whole underbelly were options but the standard option was underbelly galleys.

Boeing 747 offered hold galley option, too - not sure how popular it was.

Pacific Southwest had their Tristars fitted with a passenger lounge in forward hold - and integral airstairs from that hold. Lockheed actually offered a hold fitted with seats occupiable on takeoff and landing, together with emergency exits, but I think not windows.

There are Boeing 747-s that are flying with 2 integral airstairs, ahead and behind the wing, complete with lobbies and stairs to main deck. VC-25 has integral stairs, in front for use of principals, in the rear for use of press.

Il-86 also has 2 integral airstairs in standard equipment - the hold contains cloakrooms for the winter clothes of the passengers.

So... it is practical and it is done. Can someone comment on the limitations?