Current Job Climate

[Cap'n Arrr]

Hey all,

I'm just trying to get a few ideas on what the current situation is like out there. I have done a search of these threads, but I'm just after a bit of specific info.

I've got 1000tt, 40multi cmd, ifr with 2 renewals, mainly from instructing with a bit of scenic/charter, and I'm after a charter or freight job. I'm willing to relocate at short notice to anywhere in Aus/NZ, or even overseas (I have dual Aus/US citizenship), and while I know that it's a case of having to be there to get the job these days, I need a bit of advice on which areas I should be heading off to (Darwin/Kunners/Cairns/Broome/Karratha etc). Also, would it be worth doing some time on a 200 series Cessna and/or a Baron before I head off?

Any advice at all would be appreciated, I've been out of the loop on the status of this side of the industry for a while, and I'm not asking for anyone to find a job for me, I just would like some advice on the best way and direction to go about this.:)

Cheers,

Cap'n

[Big_Eyes]

Not a lot is happening in the Northern tourist regions or nothing like it was 8 months back due to the R word of course.
Always good to have time on type though 5hrs needed for VFR and 10 IFR on type so 210 time would help.

Be hard to get a twin engine job if you have had most of your experience instructing because a lot of operators like you to fly the singles to learn the area.

Ring up the the operators and speak with the chief pilots.

[goldypilot]

mate its every man for himself atm. i am in a very very very similar situation to you atm and its all about pumping your resume out there and praying for a break. good luck

Goldy

[Mr. Hat]

Capn Arr,

Darwin (and others in NT)
Kunners
Broome
Karratha

All the way down thru Geraldton and to Kalgoorlie back up to Darwin.

Be johnny on the spot. Keep shaking hands and meeting people. Face to face my friend. Get a base set up and do trips to places to meet people. Its like cooking on multiple stove tops - keep all those contacts boiling away.

Don't spend any money on more training - spend it on fuel driving and meeting people.

It will happen just make it.

[The Green Goblin]

Funny how last year with those sort of hours you would have been up for a job with Rex and a skipper within 6 months and would accept nothing less than a 30 seat turbo prop and a jet shortly after.

Now trading down to a 210 :(

Although on the bright side I love flying my 210s and found the flying much more interesting than flight levels and irrelevant small talk to pass the hours by.

I'd almost swap you if the 210 pay was better :)

[Wally Mk2]

The eternal question...........: "the current job climate" A worthy question for sure but there's no favorable answer anymore.
To put it simply if you have a job or can secure one then either stay put or take the job that even remotely resembles a job as I firmly believe that we shall never see what we saw a couple of years ago re hiring of pilots etc. It's a leaner & meaner world we now live in, aviation is now a very unsafe long term industry. Time to batten down the hatches for it's a brave new world out there & it will be quite a while if ever before we have some level of stability especially in our industry. It's like a lot of creatures that live in this planet, they change their appearances in order to survive, we humans must now adopt that philosophy by adapting.
Having said that for some the love of flying will be yr shield against evil, just make sure yr wearing yr bullet proof undies behind that shield:-)
Good luck to all those still wishing to make flying a life long career, I wouldn't want to be 18 again & faced with the love of flight & fewer & fewer chances to realize it!

Obviously my opinion only & you seek financial advice first before selling yr house & going to live in a cave!:ok:
Wmk2

[Dunnza]

There is certainly work out there, both for companies and people like you.

Take alook at my example, operated two B58's business was going no-where real fast, deciding to purchase 100% of the company I managed to find work...

Saying that, I now have a couple of brand spanking new vans!

I even had to knock back a job for a B58 cause I've sold them

[Cap'n Arrr]

Thanks everyone for the advice! It seems a road trip is in order then.:E

[Towering Q]

I love flying my 210s and found the flying much more interesting than flight levels

Until mid-summer, when the thermals are punching through FL150.:eek:

[Maloo]

I'm with Q,

I prefer hosties in flight levels over brothers in turbulence.

Plus the flying is fun below transition.

Maloo

[Fr8dog44]

I hate to be a bummer, but......

Here in the States the aviation job market sucks. I've been unemployed for 10 months and I have an ATP, 7000 hrs, 1000 jet, 1400 Turboprop, 3500 multi, 6500 command, 1000 Actual IFR, etc, etc. There are THOUSANDS of unemployed pilots here and those that are getting hired have to know someone in the company AND have to be almost God-Like!!!

Most companies are hiring "contract pilots", which means you're an independant self employed type. No fly, no get payed. You pay your own taxes, medical, training, etc. And only those with massive amounts of time/experience get the position. I hope this sheds some lighth on the picture.

[Falling Leaf]

Yep, the decline & fall of the American Empire, read all about it on these forums. And it hasn't really started yet, many companies are holding onto people only because they are hoping for a V shaped recovery!

Those of us who are not established in QF/VB/J*, and are looking for long term stability in Aviation will probably have to seriously consider moving to either the Middle East, or commuting to and from China/India for the rest of our working days.:*

[The_Pharoah]

well if its any consolation, it 'appears' (take this with a grain of salt) that we may have bottomed out of the recession globally. Sure there's still some pain in the short term but the GFC has been a sort of 'enema' for the economy and a lot of global companies that have grown too big too fast and over extended themselves with debt. A lot of companies are going to show losses or severly reduced profits for the FY ended 30 June 09 but this is something the market expects. An old boss once told me - 'if you're going to have a bath, make it a good one' :} this is the time for companies to 'clean out the closet' so to speak. That just means next year should be a bumper year.

Case and point is the RBA's decision to hold interest rates steady. Furthermore, if you look at banks' forward rate projections, they are actually looking at interest rate increases!

Anyway, my point is...at the moment its doom and gloom (not as bad as 3 months ago) but it will start picking up soon, and it already has.

[mattyj]

Fr8dog44 sounds like you would make a great instructor!! Industry is crying out for people who know what they're talking about.

[Mr. Hat]

Fr8 totally agree and Falling leaf has knocked the nail squarely on the head.

I wouldn't work as a pilot in the US for all the tea in China.

There is a recovery going on if you follow the stock market. Unfortunately aviation is very sensitive to economic problems so it tends to to lag in either direction. If the conditions of the US turn up here in Oz I'll be looking elsewhere overseas contracts or another profession.

[Fr8dog44]

Thanks matty! I used to be and instructor many, many moons ago. And I was told I was a great one, but even they won't have me! I know too much!!! ;)

[training wheels]

Business confidence soars to pre-crisis levels (http://business.smh.com.au/business/business-confidence-soars-to-precrisis-levels-20090728-dzf5.html)

Hopefully things will pick up again soon. Also heard on the radio today that the housing market in the US jumped 11% (they were expecting 2% increase).

[mic310]

Training wheels,even if it dosn't good to see someone with a positive outlook on the horizon.:ok:

[Jettson]

Breaks do happen. You either there when it does or your not. I do know of quite a few people who have been employed in the last couple of months into decent GA jobs with around the 1000TT mark. Might be a sign of things starting to pick up, or maybe its just the good old dry season here to employ us all.

[206greaser]

I've just done the trip up North and most, but not all, of the operators I spoke to said that things were starting to pick up. They gave the impression that there was a little light starting to show at the end of this very dark tunnel. Of course the Negative Nellie's will call that light a train. I'm not saying that it'll swing to last years lunacy, but the industry is not completely dead. We did see AAA advertise for a couple of pilots this week. At the Katherine tourist info place the guy i spoke to there said that they were busier than ever. He put it down to folks not going overseas this year. Now whether or not they're taking joy flights who knows, perhaps not. Anyway...

Cheers,
Greaser

[The Green Goblin]

AAA Charter
Two Pilots Required
Top End fixed-wing charter operator has two openings.
1. Experienced charter pilot, min 700TT, incl 200+hrs Cessna 200 time
2. Casual position for low time pilot

Looks like no help for the low time guys, last year they would have taken a bare CPL and zero 200 series exposure.

Looks like back to the good old days of begging stealing and flying for free, scrapping up 500TT and trying your luck at your first real job :{

If it were me looking at jets with stars in my eyes right now I'd want someone to punch me fair in the head, knock some sense into me and point me to the closest university.

[The_Pharoah]

its funny how if everyone wants min 800hrs TT and newbies are coming out with 200 hrs TT and no low hour jobs...where the heck is the 600 hrs deficit supposed to come from? :ugh: (rhetorical question).

[eeper23]

From someone working in the current GA industry I wouldnt say its dead at all. Pilots are still moving around, and there are definetley jobs being taken in the regionals at the moment. I think think of at least 5 pilots who have moved on from NT GA in the past month.

[VH-SKY]

Suppose everyone thats deciding to do there pilots license CPL from now on will know what to expect.

500TT is the new 200TT :{

Might be some movement but it's still not be advertised.

[The Green Goblin]

I think think of at least 5 pilots who have moved on from NT GA in the past month.

Yep, the five guys who were laid off from Airnorth :(

[Jettson]

2. Casual position for low time pilot

The second position is for a low time guy/newbie I am guessing. Bet there is a million people after that one!

[The_Pharoah]

I know there's AFAP jobs but I've seen other pilot forums that actually have a running sticky/post specifically for low hour pilots <1000 hrs TT. Obviously I don't know what the PPRuNe forum policy is about that but having something like that by region (eg. one for DG&P) would be awesome for info purposes. It would certainly allow GA operators (heck even regionals) to pop in with a post like:
- need 2 pilots min 250 hrs CPL + ME/IR, etc etc. PM me with your details.

Esp in this climate where the old 'jump in a car and head north' don't work no more (and esp in a country as small as Aust :}), this would certainly help newbies.

Eh, thats my $0.02 worth. :ok:

[Maxweight]

Pilots are still moving around, and there are definetley jobs being taken in the regionals at the moment. I think think of at least 5 pilots who have moved on from NT GA in the past month.
The police airwing in Darwin and SA in Broome were recruiting recently and i think a couple of the Network pilots joined Airnorth.

Surprised to hear that Airnorth laid off a few though!Were they from the jet?

Max

[training wheels]

Anyone know anyone who got short listed for the AAA Aircharter job? They said only short listed candidates will be notified by this evening.

[Mike Litoris]

Just wondering how many people who got work during the boom 18 months ago, are still in work? how many lost jobs after the boom? are there less positions out there? or are all the positions just filled with reduced progression?

safe skies to all

ML

[ResumeOwnNav]

Gday Mike,

You asked some interesting questions which nobody has yet to answer, so I thought I would give it a go. I was employed in my first flying job 18-24 months ago.

Just wondering how many people who got work during the boom 18 months ago, are still in work?
I am still with the same company I was originally employed with, flying single and twin work. All the guys I know who started around this time are all still in work. Some have changed companys looking for twin work etc. But all are still employed.

how many lost jobs after the boom?
No one I know of has lost their job to work not being there. (Commenting on single and twin piston GA work. I can't comment on the higher end GA turbine/contract mine/regional stuff, if that is what your questions relate to)

are there less positions out there?
No less positions available.

or are all the positions just filled with reduced progression?

Yes & No, it seems most are holding onto their multi IFR jobs longer as the multi crew turbine/regional jobs are harder to get or require more experience than what we have recently seen. There is still people moving around the industry, hence companys still hiring SE VFR pilots.

Don't give up guys, those first jobs will come in time.

* I can only comment on the entry level GA world as this is where I currently am employed. I believe your questions will have totally different answers for those that where employed in the Regional/contract mine charter jobs 18 months ago.

Nav.

[The Green Goblin]

* I can only comment on the entry level GA world as this is where I currently am employed. I believe your questions will have totally different answers for those that where employed in the Regional/contract mine charter jobs 18 months ago.

Nav.

No one that I know have moved on, only been laid off :{

Everyone that has a job is holding onto the gold stuff, putting off buying that new car or buying that house as job security feels a little uncomfortable right now :(

A lot of the guys who were laid off will be the first ones back on when the hiring starts again unless they don't want to come back.

Don't quit your job, sell your car or dump your woman (or bloke) 'till you have a new one lined up :cool:

[777WakeTurbz]

Very good advice Green Goblin, i was unfortunate enough to have given many months notice in advance of moving on to complete my ATPL exams seeing as i could not do them where i was without great expense in travel.
And by the time the market started crashing there was already a replacement trained and work was dropping off, i still did not expect i would have too much trouble picking up some more casual work on the east coast with my experience (1800TT, 1000hrs Multi Command, 2 MECIR renewals and now holding a full ATPL) so i chose to continue with my plans and do the exams... That was many many months ago now and i still have not had a sniff of any prospects on the horizon. :ugh:

It is frustrating and bloody depressing, and there are so many in this position that you get to wonder if there is light at the end of the tunnel. But i guess with the falls there will inevitably be the rises and hopefully they arent too distant in the future.

Anyone want to offer me a job? Will work for free, just want to get back in the air... haha :}

[The Green Goblin]

i was unfortunate enough to have given many months notice in advance of moving on to complete my ATPL exams seeing as i could not do them where i was without great expense in travel.

Carnarvon has a direct flight to Karratha with XR and QF fly to the east coast ex Karratha now :)

[dik cheney]

I was employed in my first flying job 18-24 months ago.I am still with the same company I was originally employed with, flying single and twin work. All the guys I know who started around this time are all still in work.Thats how it was during the boom guys, 18 months to a twin. Times that by 2 or 3 now and your getting close. I know many guys with around the 1000hr multi mark with no where to go.

[M14_P]

Exactly, if guys like that (1000hr multi) haven't got options, what hope do any of the freshly qualified guys have?

[Xcel]

its been 12 months since the downturn.. give it some time...

[Mr. Hat]

M14, it was exactly the same if not worse when I started out. Qantas hired about 3 pilots every 300 years and Ansett just didn't hire so there were no airlines pulling people out of g.a. at all. So the scenario was about 10-20 fresh cpls waiting for each job. Regardless of the warnings to "not bother" I still drove up to the top end and still got a job. I didn't undercut, brownnose or work for free. I just worked hard at updating with operators, meeting people and went to places that no one else went. When I was finally working driving a 210 I couldn't believe how few people would come out to see us to get a job. We weren't in a popular spot! We got hundreds of cv's though.

As for the 1000 hour or 30000 hour guys having more chance than you argument. This is not the case. Sure the 300 hrs guy is ideal but if he/she is not there on the spot then thry'll miss out also. Operators want people that fit the build. A 200 hour guy/gal is the right fit for those newbie jobs becasue the operator generally wants someone they can work to the bone and will hang around for a while. The 1000 hour guy/gal won't put up with as much and is realistically very close to a twin job given the right circumstances and contacts.

Don't talk yourself out of your career and don't exclusively limit yourself to the pilot meccas. There are more random jobs going that noone even knows of that are just waiting to be discovered.

[increasedescent]

Don't talk yourself out of your career

Well said Mr. Hat.

ID

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Don't talk yourself out of your career
Well said Mr. Hat.

ID

Problem is the flying schools have been pumping 'em out the last few years saying there is a shortage, now they are pumping them out saying no one is doing their training because job prospects are low and its getting too expensive. So all the starry eyed youngsters keep handing over the cash and are ill prepared for the industry once outside the flying school.

Flying schools teach you how to operate an aeroplane, the don't teach you how to operate in the industry and once the many ray ban donning pilots walk out expecting one thing, they sadly find another and to often walk away.

2 students out of about 20 in my course got their first job straight out of training, a couple of others got lucky last year and paid their way into cadet schemes and now myself and the other fella are flying in the regionals.

I'd love to see the figures for CPL licences issued now without a current medical and BFR.

[777WakeTurbz]

XR were/are rediculously overpriced, i imagine the flight from CAR to PKA would cost the same as the flight to Perth... $222 was about the lowest i ever saw it but regularly over $400. :bored:

[Mr. Hat]

Spot on GG. The industry needs a "professional" body as mentioned in another thread much like the doctors and lawyers.

I've said for years that the number of CPL's should be reduced by some form of screening at the start. Its an unpopular view but thats what they do in medicine. Once upon a time the dollars required was the screen - now it goes on hecs.

[bushy]

Ive been saying that for years and it makes a man unpopular. I empathise with the beginners. I was one once. They will do "whatever it takes" and will walk into some traps.
Our airlines take the cheap way of getting new pilots by the "beginner pays" system. They don't have a proper recruiting and training system that would provide some predictabiity for trainees and airlines alike. This results in GA being flooded with young, desperate, broke pilots who have no wish to stay and help build GA, to make it a better and safer industry. The young pilots try hard, but their interest is elsewhere and they soon leave. Pay is poor because the supply almost always exceeds demand. A few go to airlines, and many quit. Flying schools train more, and some schools set up charter companies to sell ICUS to the young hopefuls.(with pax on board). Our airlines and regulating authorities don't care, as they live on the coast where GA is not a major transport industry. It is seen only as a holding pool to keep a supply of pilots until the airlines need a few more.
Now the HECS fees will bring more desperate young, broke pilots who have nowhere to go.

So how do we fix it? The airlines can help a lot by interviewing pilots early in their training cycle and signing a provisional agreement to employ them when they finish training, or when they are needed, and giving them a (training) seniority number.
Then we won't have 1000 people training for every airline flying job, and flooding GA. Those who don't have a number will know where they are NOT going, and the flood will become a trickle. Those who do not have a number will know they will be in GA for the long run, and will work to make it better and safer. There will be long term planning again. Pay would increase, and there could be GA cadetships paid or subsidised by the industry.

Major change is needed but probably will not happen, because our airline managers and aviation regulators live on the coast, and don't care about the GA industry, or it's safety.