Should Civil Airports be used for returns from Afghanistan

[racedo]

Interesting thought following on from Bud advert someone kindly posted on another thread YouTube - Budweiser Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTrMe76kes)

Should service personnel returning from Afghanistan etc be routed via Civil airports like Heathrow / Gatwick etc.
(Yes I know the sarky comment of having they suffered enough already :))

Views ?

[Pontius Navigator]

racedo, see PM.

[Grabbers]

PN

Do share...

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Racedo, nice idea but no doubt some blunt f@cker has looked at the cost in landing fee's, handling agents etc etc etc, so bugger convenience BZN it is :}

[ScrinsonBadger]

We had to land at Luton from a sandy place a couple of years ago due to fog at BZN and were immediately turfed out onto a corner of the airfield into the drizzle so as 'not to frighten the passengers. Our bags were then driven up on baggage trucks which we had to unload and we were left to sort out transport (which I ended up doing) for the 200 or so people. Thanks Luton!

I can understand them wanting us to pick up weapons out of sight but it was a little rude to suggest we weren't welcome in our home country. We also weren't very acclimatised to the 4 degrees C temperatures.:eek:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Racedo, nice idea but no doubt some blunt f@cker has looked at the cost in landing fee's, handling agents etc etc etc, so bugger convenience BZN it is

I'd like to congratulate you on your visionary and detailed analysis of the effective running of a decrepid transport fleet. Perhaps you could be persuaded to share other pearls of wisdom with us that are equally erudite and valid to enhance our roles on a day to day basis. You great pointy, sharp, operational expert. :rolleyes:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I'd like to congratulate you on your visionary and detailed analysis of the effective running of a decrepid transport fleet. Perhaps you could be persuaded to share other pearls of wisdom with us that are equally erudite and valid to enhance our roles on a day to day basis. You great pointy, sharp, operational expert. :rolleyes:

I rest my case :rolleyes:

[sooms]

Depends on the airport faciliites I think...might be interesting for joe public to see 300 sweaty herberts fresh from AFG, if only to illustrate would service personnel really look like after Ops.

On a personal note, post Op Palliser (Sierra Leonne) I travelled back to UK by C130 along with about 40 other assorted herberts from all 3 services.
The route included a fuel stop in the Canary Islands (can't remember the name of the airport but it was the main airport on the island). Amazingly, we were allowed into the (packed) airport terminal, rather than just left standing around while the C130 was fuelled.

None of us had showered or washed our uniforms properly for about 7 weeks so as you can imagine we were a bit 'ripe'- we soon had our own little area in the terminal all to ourselves!! My two travelling companions and I clubbed together our limited finances to buy some coffees only to find out were about 2 bucks short however the young spanish girl on the till let us off the extra. At the time we thought she was being generous..perhaps on hindsite she wanted rid of us as quickly as possible!

We had no problems until we went back through security. We'd all left our personal weapons (under guard) on the aircraft apart from one k##b who still had a 9 milly and 20 rnds in his pocket...major sense of humour failure by airport security!

[Laarbruch72]

It already happens at various civvy airports around the UK, usually during the RIP. There are two that I know of that have been used frequently.

[Occasional Aviator]

Having been through many US airports where troops are waiting for flights I think it is wrong that we are not prepared to let military personnel in uniform into civilian airports. Seeing a company of soldiers on their way to or from theatre would keep the military in the public eye and remind certain elements that we are part of society, too.

Slightly off topic, but since I have worked with US forces and seen how they stand in society I think we could all do our bit. For instance, I will now wear my uniform on the train if I'm going to a meeting or similar - feels a little weird on the tube, but otherwise it's no bad thing to be seen!

[Mighty Quercus]

If a formed unit is over 50 pax and have completed decompression they will get a charter flight into an airport closest to their home base. This has been going on for a while now.

Its down to the unit to request it. No doubt some don't so end up at BZZ.

[goatface]

Almost any UK civilian airport is eqipped and able to handle any military flight, including return trips from Afghanistan, whether you are in uniform, civvies or dressed as clowns.
Generally you will be welcomed and almost certainly given preferential treatment because of the respect the vasy majority of us have for the contribution the armed forces have always made, not just now.

What we don't tolerate is the attitudes Seldomfitforpurpose and his petty minded idiots who fail to appreciate that all costs of every flight into a UK civilian airport do not differ from any other, in fact it's cheaper to operate such flights into civilian airports than any military base - the MOD charges more than anyone else in the UK.
It's a charter flight and costs are the same as charged any where else, do you expect them to be free:=:=?

[Jimmy Macintosh]

I was travelling through the States earlier this week. All military service personel travelling with their families were offered first option on free upgrades to the vacant first class seats. Though I would have liked the option myself I was very pleased at the level of support for their military. Most I saw were clearly returning from ops.

[Laarbruch72]

It's a good point that you make Goatface. Omni Air don't use Brize Norton for free, their landing fees, handling charges, fuel etc will cost them as much if not more than at Newcastle, Glasgow or Dyce for example (all of which they use often during the RIPs).
SeldomFitToPost is maybe genuinely ignorant of the fact, but I guess those at the (apparently) sharp end are too important to be concerned with such trivialities while spouting guff on the internet. In his small world it's apparently free for a charter airline to use a military airfield. :hmm:

[Strobin Purple]

Earlier this week I transited thru' Bangor, Washington and Belize to get to San Diego with 35 colleagues in desert CS95 for Herrick PDT (thank you 101 Sqn and the OCU). All of the younger guys were astounded to be welcomed at Bangor by a bunch of veterans and their volunteer wives shaking hands and offering badges and gizzits. An hour of schmoozing some charming Americans and then back onto the 10 to a standing ovation from all collected at the departure terminal.
Same deal at Belize from all US tourists, handshakes and profuse thanks for serving.
The common refrain from all of the pax was to compare and contrast the likely treatment at a Brit civvy terminal, if it should ever happen.

[ShyTorque]

Let the ones in uniforms come home by the most expeditious route.

Let the ones in boxes come home via civvy airports so we don't forget what we are asking of our servicemen and women.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

It's a good point that you make Goatface. Omni Air don't use Brize Norton for free, their landing fees, handling charges, fuel etc will cost them as much if not more than at Newcastle, Glasgow or Dyce for example (all of which they use often during the RIPs).
SeldomFitToPost is maybe genuinely ignorant of the fact, but I guess those at the (apparently) sharp end are too important to be concerned with such trivialities while spouting guff on the internet. In his small world it's apparently free for a charter airline to use a military airfield. :hmm:

No, but it is free for a Tri*, VC10 and Albert, hence my slightly too subtle for some post :rolleyes:

[Moose Loadie]

As I now live in the US, I have come to realise that this is an everyday occurrence. These guys travel in military uniform (on military orders) on civil flights to reach their point of departure to oversee deployments and are treated with the upmost respect by everyone in the airport. After being asked by my wife "is this how your guys are treated in the UK?" I felt ashamed to explain that they had to change into civvies on the ramp before being allowed into the terminal.

[MarkD]

Plenty of military uniforms at SNN last time I was through - and not the local variety either

[brit bus driver]

[QUOTE]The common refrain from all of the pax was to compare and contrast the likely treatment at a Brit civvy terminal, if it should ever happen. [QUOTE]

Whilst the troops may not be there in droves, there are always a handful around Terminal 5 in uniform, no doubt making their way home after being dropped at Brize. Whilst they don't get the whooping and hollering one associates with our brethren from across the pond, there is certainly no animosity. A more considered, personal reflection of the job they do perhaps - much more in keeping with the British way...

[EGTE]

I've seen many civilian charter flights at my local civilian aerodrome bringing troops back from operational areas at the end of their tour over the last few years.
I'd say that the practice has been ongoing for some time!

[A and C]

A lot of anti Brize opinion but from the point of view of charter aircraft operating crew Brize is a far better place to operate from that any UK civil airport.

Fuel is available immediately on request, next to no ATC delays & passengers are moved to the terminal very quickly (not like LGW if you are parked on a remote stand!)

From a CRM angle the crew are not exposed to the bunch of half witted, officious, petty minded numptys that have been given the excuse to intimidate and harass crews in the name of "security".

I would think that the transit of passengers at Brize should save about an hour over the time from aircraft to leaving the terminal at one of the bigger UK airports. so I think that this should be factored in when selecting an airport, after all the most important thing after a spell in a hot and sandy place is to get home as quickly as possible.

[Laarbruch72]

I would think that the transit of passengers at Brize should save about an hour over the time from aircraft to leaving the terminal.........
.....after all the most important thing after a spell in a hot and sandy place is to get home as quickly as possible.

At East Midlands I've seen troops get off the DC10 and straight onto coaches which took them back to their unit direct, (the bags followed on later on a lorry) so it's actually pretty efficient. I've not seen the process at a really large airport, but we don't tend to use the really big ones anyway.

[Logistics Loader]

The other thing to remember here is that not all airports can handle widebody jets..!!

Even Waddo couldnt years ago...
Some bright spark in Ops accepted a Tristar for the 5 Sqn guys coming home...
Sadly Waddo didnt have the steps nor the other associated kit to assist with the offload...
Suffice to say said individual had a red face when the aircraft was rejected...!!

Also, the length of the flight and what the aircraft is further tasked with can also dictate what airfield is used..
Bear in mind crew day is or was 14hrs or 5 sectors...

As for troops coming home by most expeditious, whether they are able to walk or whether they have been repatriated makes no odds.
If coffins fly CivAir they are afforded no honours and travel as freight, sad fact but true...
During my career, i assisted in moving a fair few, from infant size coffins to adult size. Never an easy task, especially when you know the individual. However, all coffins are treated with due respect.

PS:

Thanks admin for the re-instatement...

[jedigtr]

I work at Heathrow and have seen the odd serviceman a few times in T1. No idea on their destination but next time I see one I'll go and shake his hand and give my thanks for the top job they are all doing.

[Redcarpet]

I believe that on average the same 2-3 Tristars serve the airbridge over a week or so, as a result of deep servicing, long term u/s etc. They are turned as soon as they land, either to serve as a spare or to go on the next flight, therefore any delay in getting them back to home base is likely to be very detrimental to the next guys going out.

[Strobin Purple]

quote<Whilst the troops may not be there in droves, there are always a handful around Terminal 5 in uniform, no doubt making their way home after being dropped at Brize. Whilst they don't get the whooping and hollering one associates with our brethren from across the pond, there is certainly no animosity. A more considered, personal reflection of the job they do perhaps - much more in keeping with the British way...> quote

OK, I take it back. There was me listening to the experiences of over 60 current serving UK mil (RAF and Army) as opposed to an airline pilot. I must have missed the quietly considered, personal reflections of Joe Public and mistaken it (until very, very recently) for apathetic disinterest before them turning back to Jade and the BB household.

[BIGBOB11]

First post......... Thank you, all the Brits who have joined us. We are cousins. Nothing against your traditions. But after Viet Nam we in America decided, never again. Our warriers are treated like gold. They choose to go into the breach. They deserve honor.



As do your troops. Thank you for going into the fray yourself. We have your back as you have ours. (Proven twice now).


YouTube - Welcome Home Troops/DFW Airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmlCetK2tDk)


I live close to a point of entry for these soldiers (BWI). This is the norm for all that enter from combat. Your soldiers should recieve the same. Again......we learned this some 30 years ago. Give your soldiers their due.



Bob

[moosemaster]

LL, how long have you been out? The norm for crew duty was 16 hours when I left.

However,

ShyTorque, I don't know if I'd agree with you there.

Yes, returning personnel should be able to be landed at their nearest airport, but landing fees, handling fees etc are prohibitive for military A/C (may be different for charter, naturally), as are noise restrictions for VC10s. Also, military A/C are in short supply, whereas coaches are not. Do we fly an expensive C17/Tristar for an extra 2 hours, entailing another gear cycle, another landing, another AF/BF etc, or do we land at BZN (without any ATC or parking delays) and use coaches, trains or other MT resources.

Those "in boxes" as you so respectfully put it, deserve to transit through military airfields where they are accorded the appropriate honour and respect, and where their families can receive them without unnecessary stress. Do you think a civvy airport would shut down operations for a repatriation ceremony, or should we let the coffin be offloaded by baggage handlers like ordinary freight and then be driven somewhere else?

As for our US cousins, yes they do accord their service personnel much more respect than we in the UK do, and I think that they have the right idea, however, as can be noted in BIGBOB11's post, they too are flown to a number of central "entry point" locations, and then disburse from there. As the USA is somewhat bigger than UK, they use civvy air travel more frequently. We only have BZN or LYE, which are both quite central anyway. It is definately quicker to drive to somewhere like Manchester from BZN than it is to drive to LHR, wait around for 2 hours then fly up.