UK PPL to FAA CPL then into a UK CPL

[chris2309]

Hi Everyone

Sorry if a question like this has already been answered but I have tried in vain to search for an answer to this.

I hold a UK PPL with 80 hours (30 hours P1) and want to go on to do a CPL. The CAA however won’t grant me a Class 1 medical because of my eyesight. They have stated however that if I was to go abroad to a non JAA country, gain a CPL there, they will give a Class 1 when I return to the UK (where the logic is in this I don’t know)

Therefore, can anyone shed any light on what the best approach for me to take would be? Should I go across to the US for example, hour build and then sit an FAA CPL? If I were to do this, would I have to obtain an FAA PPL first and then what would be involved in the UK to gain a UK CPL?

My plan was originally to enrol on an integrated course with somewhere like Oxford or Cabair, but obviously they require a Class 1 medical beforehand and from what I can gather, I wouldn’t be suitable for their modular routes either.

This is causing me a lot of despair and from what I can see is going to cost me a hell of a lot more money just because of some silly technicality with regards to the initial medical standards. More annoyingly, had I already gained a Class 1 before my eye sight fell outside the limits, I could still hold a valid Class 1 because there are no limits for the renewal and I wouldn’t be in this predicament.

Thanks in advance for any advice


Chris

[redout]

you could do a class 1 in say Spain or France and then apply to have it converted to a UK class 1. Dont go to Ireland though as I think their eye requirements are more stringent than the UK.

[B2N2]

Get a US certificate based on your current certificate.
Process described here:

Airmen Certification: Verify the Authenticity of a Foreign License, Rating, or Medical Certification (http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/foreign_license_verification/)


get the US instrument rating
get the US CPL SE & ME


back to Europa-land for ATPL ground school and training for conversions

[Airbus_4]

By curiosity does anyone actually know the limit that the eyesight must be before you have to start going abroad.

[tigermagicjohn]

CAA UK are telling you porky tails, regarding they will approve it after FAA CPL - call again and ask them if they will put that in writing?
JAR all have same requirments, however there are sometimes made differences, because of the way they understand the laws.

However the story of CAA UK promising you a medical after you have FAA CPL is BS. - I was told this once by someone at the CAA, then I called back and they said it was very unlikely, but to send a letter for an offical request.
I got my Class 1 in the end, but that was another story, however not in the UK, still it became a conflict between UK CAA and the other JAR country, and UK still will not give me, and in that discussion I talked with one of the CAA chief medical doctors, and he told me the FAA CPL would not give Class 1 JAR medical.

I would guess if you came back after 3000 - 10000 hours on a heavy jet, maybe they would give you, but just going getting a FAA CPL with low hours, will not give you the class 1 medical.
But don't take this information from me, call the CAA again and ask for an offical letter where they confirm this, I promise they will NOT provide you with this letter. :ugh:

The medical advisor who gave you that information, probably the same one who gave me similar information once, however - I did not remember the name later and it was not confirmed by the CAA in writing. Next time, every time I talked with CAA medical, that is not an option.
I do feel for you, but just telling you things how they are. But please let me know if you can get the CAA to provide you with this confirmation in writing.

[chris2309]

Thanks for the info everyone

I have in fact got a letter from the CAA confirming what I was told over the phone.

The letter states "The only route for you to gain a Class 1 certificate would be if you were to hold a foreign CPL".

I am fairly certain that person I spoke to on the phone mentioned that it would have to be a CPL from a non JAA state, as you correctly say, the JAA requirements are the same. Although I can remember someone telling me a while ago that the UK does actually have slightly more lenient rules for the medical which the powers to be in Europe where trying to make stricter.

I am at the moment trying to find ways around this as I don’t want my career path to becoming a pilot made more difficult, especially with the current economic climate.

On another note, does anyone have any suggestions where I can find out what the medical requirements are in different states in Europe? I've looked on the French and Spanish Aviation Authority's web pages but haven’t been able to find any info

[youngskywalker]

Tis true, done it myself as have at least two other friends in similar circumstances. I had an FAA CPL multi/IR and about 1000tt, easily converted into JAA class one after having failed initial class one years ago. Tested on 'renewal' standards, also the initial cost is slightly cheaper. FAA first class medical can be done by some AME's in the UK.

As a slight word of caution they did tell me that they judge each case on it's merits.

[tigermagicjohn]

Well last time I spoke to them was around March this year, and was told the FAA CPL route was not an option, however I would believe if you have a good amount of hours Twin or Jet, you would be given. However problem is getting work with FAA CPL low hours, me thinks. Unless you can get a green card in the USA. But hold on to that letter from the CAA, I was told even with another JAA state class 1 medical and CPL, I would not get a UK class 1 medical.

Standards should be the same, but I have heard few differences.
Please PM me with more info on this, when you get some updates. CAA UK used to be more lenient in the past, but now with JAA and EASA they say they have to do the same as all others.

[Keygrip]

tmj - friend of mine did the same thing.

Wears glasses the tickness of coca-cola bottles and was told straight out by UK CAA - "No JAA Class 1 for you!!"

Followed the FAA route, clocked about 300 hours of piston time in C152, PA28 and PA44 - then had it converted to JAA by UK CAA without a problem.

Just shows - all a load of absolute :mad:.

[tigermagicjohn]

Yes I know it's all a BS.
I have decided to do it in Scandinavia, as I got my class 1 approved there, JAA - however the UK said no go.
However I am not going to bother to stress CAA UK until I have my CPL and if I at all need a UK class 1 medical in the future.
However they do seem to be inconsistent in what they say, as I have heard them tell me both, possible and not possible.
I even have a letter from CAA in Denmark, telling CAA UK why they should reconsider my Class 1 medical in the UK, they are saying UK CAA have made a mistake, however no response so far from UK CAA to the Danish CAA.

However when I spoke to both doctors in the UK and Denmark, they said the FAA route was not a straightforward case, and they would not recommend as a way to gain class 1 medical JAA, they said they would not give initial class 1 when outside limits, I believe in the past they have done it, but I did have a CAA nurse/advisor tell me it was an option, only to be denied the next 5 times I called to get written confirmation.

My concern is that is just a lot of money, not to know, and being in the mercy of someone who you do not know what will say.

[youngskywalker]

You could look at it the way I did;

Failed initial caa class one. Two choices, give up and move on, or...

...follow the FAA route, then built some hours, completed FAA Multi CPL (for not much money really). This if nothing else will still give you a sense of satisfaction regardless if you get any further with UK CAA. Then I completed Multi IR in the States (some here will tell you the FAA IR is crap, make your own judgements on that, it was good enough for me to pole a King Air around Europe !). Built a fair amount of P1 multi time for a year or two then luckily found myself in paid employment flying an 'N' reg corporate aircraft in the UK. Job eventually came to an end after a few years, like all those sort do! Knocked on the door at CAA house and tried again for a class one, jobs a 'good un' as they say!

If nothing else, you will have fun flying, maybe even end up with both FAA and JAA tickets which could be useful. If you go do the FAA flying with an open mind and don't listen to the predjudices on here then you will most probably even learn something ffrom our vastly more experienced American cousins! :ok:

Good luck.

[tingtang]

Hi Chris

Sounds like a similar situation to me. Failed the initial class 1 as eyesight just outside limits, already had a UK PPL, went to the US to do FAA IR (S/E) then FAA CPL/ME/IR, returned to the UK and passed the class 1. I finished my training back in March and have just started flying a king air based in the UK. Check out this link and search my previous postings to see what I did and the obstacles I crossed:

http://www.pprune.org/medical-health/220545-vision-thread-other-than-colour-vision-23.html#post3983397

any questions, just ask but what the caa have told you is correct. There is actually a document somewhere on the caa website describing the deviation route policy which you could probably find easily enough by doing a search.

Will

[chris2309]

Thanks to everyone who's posted a reply - it has really helped me plan my next steps

[tigermagicjohn]

What I was told last year, was that the deviation route policy no longer existed, because of JAR and later EASA.
I was told this had been an option in the past, but not anymore.
Please anyone with any information about this please enlighten me, but guess it has to be recent experience, last 12 months, as from what I understand much of the rules have become stricter lately.

One chief medical at CAA told me even if I gained a JAR CPL in another JAR country, they would not issue me a class 1 medical.
(My problem is only the pre op limit of lasik operation 4 years ago, 2 CAA's do not agree on what is correct)

From the posts I have read now, yes with "real heavy time", thousands of hours FAA sure, and this has been route few years ago, but CAA told me the deviation route no longer existed.
Chris have you talked to CAA now recently regarding FAA CPL to UK class 1 medical?

[youngskywalker]

Can't say but mine was last June.

[chris2309]

Yes I have been in talks with the CAA for the last couple of months.

Before Nov 2006, the standards for the medical were:

Initial Class 1, eyesight had to be between -5 and +5
Renewal Class 1, eyesight had to be between -8 and +5.

If your eyesight was between the limits of -8 for renewal and -5 for initial, the CAA would consider giving you a deviation, which meant you could only fly UK aircraft. Then when your renewal was due, providing you were still between -8 and -5, you were then eligible for a normal class 1.

After the change in Nov 2006, the initial standards are between -6 and +5. But for the renewal, the limit is +5 for long sightedness and there is no limit for short-sightedness, hence the deviation route is no longer applicable as everyone would fall in between the limits for initial and renewal.

When I last spoke to the CAA a few weeks back, I asked the lady on the phone to explain to me the logic behind why I, as an initial candidate, would fail a medical because of my eyesight, but someone who already flies on a class 1 and has the same eyesight standards as me could continue to have class 1. Surely both of our eyesight’s pose the same safety risk regardless of the fact that one of us already holds a class 1 or not. When asked she basically changed the subject, whether because she didn’t know the answer or was simply tired of getting into the same debate she has had with other people.

In a nutshell, the CAA has told me on the phone and in writing that I could gain a class 1 if I hold a foreign CPL.

John, gathering from your last post, have you had laser surgery on your eyes? This again is another strange rule as the CAA won’t grant you a class 1 after you have had laser surgery done if your eyes were outside the limits before hand – even if your eyes are absolutely perfect post-op

[tigermagicjohn]

Yes I had laser surgery.
Here is the funny part, on pre assesment, just looking pre op medical reports, UK CAA said I was outside pre op limits, and Danish CAA said I was within pre - op limits - So I was never offically refused UK class 1 medical, I got Danish class 1 medical - also JAR.

First time I got the letter from CAA UK, the lady did tell me FAA route could be an option, however this was later denied in phone calls later.

At the moment I have left it like it is, doing my CPL in Scandinavia eventually - livining in London (So could have been easier had all here in London)

I am assuming eventually in time and with gained CPL commen sense will prevail, also I am not looking for specific job with UK carrier either - send me to eskimos, that will do!:8

[tigermagicjohn]

After these posts, I sent a complaint to UK CAA regarding my situation.Guess what, they replied and said they would give me class 1 medical, restricted, deviation, based on my class 1 medical from Denmark.

However my Danish class 1 is unrestricted, they still disagree on the class 1 medical report.

However they did warn that EASA regulations might mean future loss of medical and license, since the deviation shows in their opinion I am outside JAR, this is the UK stance, while Danish argue I am within the limits.

And it is correct, CAA UK are now allowed to use the deviation again, however this might change after EASA takes effect. What situation!:mad: