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Tankertrashnav
15th Jul 2009, 12:03
I think it's fairly true to say that the reputation of our armed forces in the eyes of the general public has not been so high for many years, and rightly so. A welcome development has been that servicemen and women are no longer discouraged from wearing uniform in public. When I was serving in the 1960s and 70s we were strongly discouraged from this practice, particularly when IRA terrorism became a real threat. Now although our forces are much smaller numerically, they are far more evident on our streets, and a good thing too.

But (and there had to be a but) in recent times I have seen the following.

A naval officer in uniform emerge from his car and wander hatless down the street, eventually entering a shop.

A pilot in (faded) flying suit, also hatless, leave his car and stroll down the street. In a belated attempt to cover up he pulls a grey civilian "hoodie" over his head.

A Lt Cdr RN (also a pilot) in best blue (or whatever the Navy call it) standing hatless on the street outside a pub smoking a cigarette!

Any one of the above would have earned me a stand-up rollocking from my flight commander had I been observed, and probably a week's duty officer into the bargain.

The question is - am I just fussy old git who shouldn't moan as these guys are doing a great job? Have standards changed to the extent that younger members are wondering what I'm on about?

By the way, I dont mean to pick on the navy, I just happen to live near a large naval air station - I'm sure RAF and army examples abound elsewhere

HighHeeled-FA
15th Jul 2009, 12:11
Gosh - first time in this forum. Hiya guys :p

I don't know if my view is welcome here but a uniform has a really high status for the organisation it belongs to. The moment we pull on the uniform, we are advertising our airline. No swearing, no smoking, don't sit in the hotel lounge drinking wine etc...

I don't think you are being a fussy old git. Just someone who is immensely proud of the uniform and what it stands for.

gayford
15th Jul 2009, 12:36
Unfortunately, I am one of the 'old retired' variety who spent many years being forced to hide my uniform in public. Now that the situation has markedly changed I believe we should welcome our service heros and encourage them to be seen in uniform. Let us not make a fuss over whether they are wearing a hat or not etc,etc, as long as they are tidy and not smoking it's OK by me. Is it not better to see our service men and women proudly wearing their uniforms openly than trying to hide under a tatty coat as was very common in the not too distant past?

talk_shy_tall_knight
15th Jul 2009, 13:33
I can't help feeling that all this public display of uniform/fly the flag/Armed forces day, stuff means more to those outside the services than those in it. Personally I could have done without spending yet another weekend (this time in No 1s) so that the GP could 'appreciate' me. Frankly I'd rather have had the weekend off.

That may appear to sound ungrateful, but after 30 odd years in uniform I don't feel the need to strut around in it when not working.

Slight drift; Curiously, i've noticed that the 2 year national servicemen of the 50s era are particularly keen to don their blazers and badges and attend any vaguely military/veteran gathering. This is not a criticism, just an observation. I just can't see myself ever 'badging up' once my time's done. Each to their own I suppose.

FJJP
15th Jul 2009, 14:36
Having experienced the United States and their attitude to their Armed Forces and the way their Armed Forces Personnel deport themselves round the streets, I am glad that attitudes in this country are swinging the same way [thanks be to the media].

However, I feel that our servicemen should be punctillious in observing the dress rules - hats to be worn, uniforms clean and pressed, etc. That way the public will see that we take pride in our appearance and therefore in our Service.

I am afraid that a shabby uniform with a beret tucked into the epaulette and a fag dangling out of the corner of the mouth just doesn't cut it...

Torque Tonight
15th Jul 2009, 15:36
I support the wearing of uniform in public (when appropriate) as it helps break down barriers between civvies and servicemen and raises the profile of the forces.

However, if you wear uniform in public, wear it properly and with pride. If you're not going to look presentable change into civvy rig rather than looking like a half-arsed bag of sh1te - it looks bad, and reflects badly on the individual and the forces. Some seem to think that losing the head dress, loosening the tie or undoing a few buttons gives an air of relaxed cool which impresses the general public. It does not - in actual fact it just looks gash and unprofessional.

It was always a pet hate of mine and whilst I could bite my tongue for minor infractions, I did on a very few occasions have a quiet word about gross examples of taking the p1ss. Two that spring to mind were an airman walking down the local high street, beret in pocket and scoffing a poke of chips and another, a UAS APO in a Pizza Express wearing No1s (for reasons unknown) with tunic unbuttoned and generally being a loud, obnoxious, scruffy w---er. Not exactly positive images of servicemen.

Do it, but do it right.

Pontius Navigator
15th Jul 2009, 15:37
tstk,

Agree, I once did a straw poll, the general feeling amongst all ranks was 'bung £20 in the kitty and lets have the weekend off'. Think how much fuel they would save on an Air Day too.

As for the National Servicemen being proud to display, it is an age thing, although I know a fair number who belong to other associations and therefore do not feel this need for need it probably is.

I am a member of the Charybdis Association where the first generation survivors are keen that their particular remembrance lives on.

Chainkicker
15th Jul 2009, 15:49
Not too long ago I did stop at Gordano services on the M5 only to notice a senior RAF officer wander out from the car-park area, hatless, blue jacket half zipped up & holding hands with a female :eek:
Had I been in uniform, I would possibly mentioned something in passing. Mind you, he probably worked at Abbeywood, so will have fallen out of the habit of dressing correctly ;)

knocker88
15th Jul 2009, 16:33
As a current serviceman, I don't like wearing my uniform in public. The same threats that were around in the 80s and 90s, are still around today. The same idiots who spit and call us "baby killers" are still around today.

Not so long ago the good people of P'boro were verbally and physically abusing RAF servicemen/women. It seems to me that this Govt. has missed the point completely. I hate to say it but, I don't fight for the public or this Govt. I fight for my mates who are with me daily, doing the same as me day in day out.

Thats just my viewpoint. I don't expect everyone to agree.

Charlie Time
15th Jul 2009, 16:49
Being from the old security conscious days I still avoid wearing uniform in public where possible. From a privacy point of view I wouldn't wish to publicly advertise which organization I work for; this would be the same if I worked for any other large and recognizable organization. However, if you do choose to wear uniform and public (and no reason why you shouldn't if you wish) then at least adhere to the uniform regulations and think about the image you portray. Wearing the Queen's uniform is an honour and should be regarded as such. If you see someone not dressed correctly then pull them up and correct the matter. Isn't this called discipline?

ian16th
15th Jul 2009, 17:33
It definitely seems to be a 'generation thing'.

As Boy Entrants in the early 50's, we were not allowed any civilian clothes!

We were always in uniform unless at home on leave. To get out of camp, we had to satisfy the RAF Police on duty at the guardroom that we were appropriately dressed and still were when we arrived back.

All through my service, up to mid 60's. We wore uniform for any 'Duty Journey'. The only time I travelled out of uniform was from El Adem to Aden, staging through Khartoum. We wore KD slack's and a civvy shirt and carried Passports calling us 'Government Officials'.

blanket.stacker
15th Jul 2009, 17:45
Thinking of going to the Goodwood Revival in No 1s - we'd look absolutely top-drawer and even smoking in uniform would look smart (as long as it's a pipe)! Afternoon ladies.....

Anyone done it before?

racedo
15th Jul 2009, 17:50
Couple of months ago after the incidents in Luton I was with an old friend from Derry who has led lets say a colourful life, long before I knew him he has thrown the odd petrol bomb or 20 and other stuff in Derry, he has relatives who died from various incidents in 60's and 70's and grew up with what went on there. We leaving a shopping centre and 2 Army guys in Uniform coming in and he opened the door for them.

Knowing his viewpoint on Army and the services generally I asked him why and his comment was, "The War is long over, I'll not forget but not willing to hate all my life, I've attended too many funerals, I may not like them but I respect them for joining up".

Digging a little deeper and said if we went back in and couple of little scroats were spitting at the 2 guys and screaming abuse what would he do, his comment in a way surprised me in saying "grab the army and drag them away, then go back and find the little F*****s and kick the living daylights out of them, I may not like them but well sometimes you gotta do what surprises people".

I have found in the US that if someone wearing the uniform people get upset if its doing sloppy and in UK if people wish to wear it then needs to be done properly as they representing all the services not just their unit. It should be a personal thing that people are comfortable with.

Mike Read
15th Jul 2009, 19:09
What was Bicester Garrison is now a joint service base. I was ashamed to see a group captain in uniform without hat wandering around the local Tesco. Personally I felt he should not have been there in uniform anyhow. But what do I know? And in any case he wasn't aircrew so what can one expect.

Tourist
15th Jul 2009, 19:20
I disagree with all the posters who have a problem with hats not being worn.
They are an unnecessary hangover from the days when everyone had them on.
Most Naval aircrew never wear them from one year to the next at work, so why off base?

umar farouq
15th Jul 2009, 19:47
i totally agree wtih you. but in my country where the mimitary has been in power, wearing uniform in public has never been an issue as officers and men were alwas admired in their neatly turned out outfits. unfortunately, you find shabily dressed personnel all over the streets and shops, this does not speak well of the services, so wear it but represent us well. its my first time here:ok:

Tankertrashnav
15th Jul 2009, 20:35
Most Naval aircrew never wear them from one year to the next at work, so why off base?

Must admit this seems to be born out by my experience near aforementioned large naval air base. Any other navy types got an opinion on this? I still think it looks scruffy myself, and as for the Group Captain in Tescos.......:eek:

Triple Matched TQ
15th Jul 2009, 20:40
Hats should definitely be worn, (doesn't matter inside or outside the fence) - The only exception is on an airfield. And yes you should pull them up if the rig/uniform is not correct -doesn't matter inside or outside the fence.

Poor old Tourist, can't find his, thats the reason he doesn't like them! Mind you where hes going doubt you'll need it hey? :ok:

Pontius Navigator
15th Jul 2009, 20:41
I was ashamed to see a group captain in uniform without hat wandering around the local Tesco. Personally I felt he should not have been there in uniform anyhow.

Two points here, 2nd first, if we are to be out and about in uniform how do you propose we do that trick but cover up in Tescos?

1st point, many US BX actually have a serviceman at the door telling people entering to uncover. US and British have a quite different attitude to hats on in doors.

Saluting covered or uncovered is the issue. It is polite to salute on entering someone's office but if you are not wearing a hat in doors then you can't!

Grabbers
15th Jul 2009, 20:44
I once literally bumped into a skirt wearing Air Commodore in a Sainsbury's not a million miles from Shrivenham. I made a point of looking her (I think) up and down, noticing her lack of hat and her jacket undone.

"Excuse me Ma'am," I said(trying to discretely indicate I was in the Military) "No headdress today?" Tried to give her my best disproving look then walked away. She went very red. I'll be honest, had she challenged me to identify myself I would probably have shat myself. You generally end up coming off second best in a scrap with a one star, regardless of facts.

Pontius Navigator
15th Jul 2009, 20:45
Most Naval aircrew never wear them from one year to the next at work, so why off base?

And RAF aircrew too, except if they have to go handbrake house. The same is true really of anyone that goes on to the flightline - they just get used to going out and about with no hat.

Now understand the Army is different and it is failing matter on the EOD course if you don't wear your beret. You may recall a photo of an RAF EOD officer, in DPM, in the FI, tending a UXB and wearing an SD Hat. The fuss in the corridors of power was responsible for the re-emergence of the beret for RAF (not Regt) officers.

Tankertrashnav
15th Jul 2009, 20:56
group captain in uniform without hat wandering around the local Tesco


skirt wearing Air Commodore in a Sainsbury's


Blimey!! Any advance on one-star anyone? I'm offering a small prize to anyone who spots Torpy in Lidls, with or without hat;)

Wander00
15th Jul 2009, 21:18
We had a flight commander on our squadron in DIOT in the early 80s who refused to wear a beret, but always wore an immaculate SD cap with cabbage kit

Runaway Gun
15th Jul 2009, 23:41
Actually, it looks like ANY former head of the military, that now says, "The Government are letting our boys/girls down. They deserve better. This is outrageous."

Whilst previously, in uniform, they seemed okay with it all.

Tartan Stazi
16th Jul 2009, 02:09
Considering the RAF has been directed to wear uniform in public (within certain limits) and that the RAF dress regs do not direct that we wear headress indoors, what is the problem with aforementioned Gp Capt and Air Cdre? Is this a case of individuals on a pilot rumour network being unfamiliar with RAF dress regs?:hmm:

Al R
16th Jul 2009, 05:07
Tanker,

Blimey.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm226/popprune/moonlighting%20before%20retirement/OpeningMargateLIDLwithMayoress.jpg

Pontius Navigator
16th Jul 2009, 06:17
Al, the photo title is revealing too.

Al R
16th Jul 2009, 06:43
PN,

I might be past it, but I can still think on my feet.

Pontius Navigator
16th Jul 2009, 07:10
Al, the title I refered to was "moonlighting"

Al R
16th Jul 2009, 07:14
I wonder who approved his Gen App?

Tankertrashnav
16th Jul 2009, 08:27
Al R

Bugger! Post dated cheque ok?

Everyone else - we seem to be splitting hairs here - yes ok, inside Tescos is "inside" I suppose, but not in the sense of inside SHQ or the squadron office block. In any case you have to be outside before going in - what are they doing, removing head dress as they go through the door? I doubt it. My main point was, if you are going to be in uniform in public, and I am all for it, keep it smart.

sooms
16th Jul 2009, 09:03
I travel to work in uniform, however I try to avoid stopping en-route. If I do stop I ensure I am always correctly dressed.

I do not advertise my membership of the Armed Forces and would never go shopping or into town in uniform. I suppose it's a throwback to PIRA days, but I don't believe the assurances that the 'threat' to service personnel in UK is low. I believe that is only a matter or time before we see attacks on military targets in UK as a result of ops in AFG and I am not prepared to risk my wife's life or that of my two year old daughter just because a senior officer wants the RAF to be seen in public.

On the subject of standards...yes they are low and not enforced properly.
Until we get a better quality working uniform and dress regulations are robustly adhered to and enforced at all levels this will not change.

Lets face it, basic training is not what it was. Only this week while driving through camp I saw a 3 visiting Cranwell OCdts walking along, one of whom had his hands in his pockets...shock horror I hear you say, but it's one example of a very basic failure in the system that that lad probably didn't know better. I would like to think he wouldn't be let loose on a real station before being taught the basics.

Personally, I think it all started going wrong when they did away with the RAF GD/ RAF Admin trade and 'proper' SWO's!!

BEagle
16th Jul 2009, 11:24
Going up to a senior officer inside a shop and making smart alec comments about head dress is, to my mind, rather puerile.

A bit like the jumped up little tyke at 60 Sqn Wildenrath who stopped me as I walked back in flying kit to my aeroplane.... "Can I see your ID, sir?", he said. "Yes, very probably as it's written on my flying suit. If you mean may you see my F1250, be more specific in future. By the way, when did you last clean those filthy shoes, airman?".

Do Blunt Wing (or wahtever the latest term for the desk-sucking blotter-jotters is) still expect people to wear hats indoors? Why?? It's correct to wear a hat and salute when entering an office, I was always led to understand, even if you are a Group Captain and the office belongs to a Plt Off.

As for the daft Army in the Malvinas DeathStar who insist on wearing hats inside the concrete canyons.....:confused:

Hats should be worn with uniform outdoors, I quite agree. But it's quite difficult to do any shopping if you have to hold a hat in one hand, so walking the few yards between the car park and Sainsburys without a hat is perhaps practical and reasonable. Shopping whilst wearing a hat indoors looks plain daft; fortunately, aircrew can stuff a chip bag into a flying suit lower leg pocket - not really an option for a female Air Cdre in a skirt.

Another idiocy at one station was the SWO who tried to insist on people wearing hats whilst driving. The headroom in most modern cars isn't sufficient to cater for an SD cap, so turning your head only to have the SD cap fall over your eyes is an avoidable hazard - the boss agreed and asked OC Blunts to reprogramme the SWO for the 20th century.

Grabbers
16th Jul 2009, 12:15
Beagle

When you say "jumped up little tyke" was the, I presume, Airman, engaged on SSGF or other security duties? In fact, disregard that. It is the responsibility of everyone to ensure security so it matters not what duties he was engaged in. Did it upset you that the 'tyke' didn't recognise the big 'I am' in a Flying Suit? If you see someone you don't recognise strolling around a military base and in your opinion needs their identity challenging then it is incumbent on you to do so. And I can't believe you give me a hard time about puerility when you admit you come up with a smart alec quip about shoe polish. :mad::rolleyes::rolleyes:

barnstormer1968
16th Jul 2009, 12:32
I agree with your opinion of the chap mentioned below.

Originally by BEagle
A bit like the jumped up little tyke at 60 Sqn Wildenrath who stopped me as I walked back in flying kit to my aeroplane.... "Can I see your ID, sir?", he said. "Yes, very probably as it's written on my flying suit. If you mean may you see my F1250, be more specific in future. By the way, when did you last clean those filthy shoes, airman?".

When testing airfields etc. (for security) chaps like this used to make life harder for me (as I may have been walking towards aircraft in a flight suit and carrying a very fake bomb), as I would not have had a genuine RAF ID on me.
What made life SO much easier were bulshy officers who would often snap at junior ranks for asking to see their ID, and thus stopping the junior rank asking again.
In one way I did not blame the juniors for their subsequent lack of security enforcement, after all it would be the pilot whom was blown to pieces by me (simulated) or by a terrorist.

I guess dress regs are there for a reason, just as security is. It reminds me I once gained access to a controlled bunker at High Wycombe dressed in a works overall and my only ID was that from my local video rental shop.

IMHO if uniform and standards are adhered to, then most other things fall into place too.

Wrathmonk
16th Jul 2009, 12:39
Criticising BEagle .... how very dare you :=

Stand by for some bans and this thread closing :E

Wader2
16th Jul 2009, 12:40
Do Blunt Wing (or wahtever the latest term for the desk-sucking blotter-jotters is) still expect people to wear hats indoors? Why?? It's correct to wear a hat and salute when entering an office, I was always led to understand, even if you are a Group Captain and the office belongs to a Plt Off.

Ah! Style.

I remember one boss, knocked on my door, asked if he could come in and was it convenient to discuss my 1369.

Beat "my office Now" types.

BEagle
16th Jul 2009, 12:58
Grabbers, no he wasn't. He was a Pembroke aircraft mechanic determined to try to "Annoy a zob" and score a point. That was entirely obvious.

He'd already watched me cross the ASP to VASF to phone Ops - and decided to try it on as I walked back to the jet.

And yes, although he was indeed a scruffy little $hit who needed to get a grip, I certainly did show him my F1250.

I used to have absolutely no objection to showing my F1250 to anyone; as an ex-Cranwell Flt Cdt, I always had my F1250 on me having had that drilled in to me on about Day 2 of life in the RAF. But smart-alec airmen who use the excuse of an ID challenge merely to try to score points help no-one.

On a lighter note, a well-known F4 fightergator ('Wee Stevie') once made the mistake of leaving his F1250 in his SD cap when he went flying. He came back, then drove home. The next day he was rather unimpressed when the lad on the gate checking his F1250 burst into uncontrolled laughter when he saw WS' ID.....

A few minutes with a black chinagraph hadn't exactly 'improved' his photo! But he saw the funny side as it was a harmless jape - and of course he never left his F1250 lying around again!

Best fake ID I heard about was the guy at Aldermaston AWRE in the hottest time of the Cold War who had a photo of Nikita Kruschev on his security badge for about 9 months before it was noticed!

Wader2
16th Jul 2009, 13:04
I may have been walking towards aircraft in a flight suit and . . . I would not have had a genuine RAF ID on me.

Quite often (no, always) no one worked out how to identify aircrew prepared for combat missions.

We would do the pre-mission prep and remove all identification except for dog-tags.

Now there were ways around this but no one ever thought to address the issue.

We could have had 1250s in "non-exercise" envelopes for diversion to a non-playing airfield.

We could have been met after landing in one of Betty's aircraft and issued with a special pass for the unit - pilot in WJ961 or whatever as your actual name was irrelevant and it was only necessary to ensure you could get in to your own aircraft.

However once, in one of Aunty's aircraft, but playing orange, wearing a flying suite in a fetching shade of green dyed with red, pukka name tag and rank of a Starshkiy Lieutenant and ID to match, had no problem getting in to Ops as I had ID :)

When a rather more switched on officer saw me he went "Oh my G*D, how did you get in here?"

GPMG
16th Jul 2009, 14:14
Pilots ID's are never checked thoroughly. I watched a documentary on it once, I think it was called Firefox.

on the wearing uniform in public, I always feel uneasy seeing ranks or officers walking around Sainsbury's etc wearing rig. But that is because I was 'lucky' enough to be in when Gerry and paddy weren't our boosom buddies.

Didn't stop you being able to ping all of the blokes in Paddington station at 2000hrs on a Sunday though. Very short hair, t shirt, fleece and jeans, desert Boots and a large bag (sometimes with a mil tag on it). :ugh:

Pontius Navigator
16th Jul 2009, 17:06
as a harmless jape - and of course he never left his F1250 lying around again!

Yeah right, mine was on my dressing table, in my house.

I don't know how long the horn-rimmed glasses and beard where on it.

Miss PN as was, now sqn ldr, had better watch out. :)

unclenelli
16th Jul 2009, 17:19
Whilst the wearing of uniform in public is sometimes a relief (I never felt so comfortable as stopping at a US Waffle House at 9pm after work, wearing CS95 a few years back - thanks to the warm welcome given to us by the people of Gulfport, MS (before Katrina arrived)). But we also had to explain to our US hosts, that out-of-hours/work we usually called lower level bosses by their first names to avoid highlighting their involvement in the Military.

However, I can't help thinking that certain sections of our community aren't quite ready for us roaming freely in full uniform.
I'm not condoning the hatlessness, but in certain towns, would you really feel comfortable wearing a hat and walking past a crowd of yobs in hoodies, and expect to get out the otherside WITH your hat???

That said, my other half was in hospital recently and I walked from the carpark into the Hospital in 2As with beret on a daily basis without any problem - Hoodies don't tend to gather around hospitals!!!

Pontius Navigator
16th Jul 2009, 17:26
unclenellie, actually I see a fair number of these young people also in uniform and wearing berets. Th elocal ATC, not a score miles from you are well subscribed as indeed are the Army cadets too.

Mike Read
16th Jul 2009, 19:30
Thinking back to "Tesco" and similar situations, at one time officers in uniform would never have gone shopping. Times have changed though. What does "Customs of the Service" suggest, or does it no longer apply. And of course forty years ago (it is that number of years next week since I retired) if one moved around the station in flying kit one wore a hat. One didn't leave the station dressed like that. Any more than you would expect to see an engineer in greasy overalls off the base.

Pontius Navigator
16th Jul 2009, 20:09
Mike, you were of course quite right.

Aircrew had lockers in a large flying clothing locker room. Flying suits were serviced regularly and towels were provided for a post-flight shower before one went to the feeder for a post-flight meal and 'debrief' properly dressed in uniform.

Of course officers could not go shopping in uniform or otherwise. Shops shut at 5 and were usually closed from 1 to 2.15 when of course the officers were in the Mess having lunch. Tradesmen came to the Mess instead - Alkits, Moss Bros, City, Gieves - and you could order a suit or new uniform without meeting mere shop assistants.

Saturdays you were either working in the morning or free in civilian clothes if one insisted on going into town. Of course you may not have been able to get in to town as not everyone had their own car. Sunday shopping was unheard of and DIY was only for proper craftsmen.

Tankertrashnav
16th Jul 2009, 22:01
I suspect that PN and Mike Read, like myself, also had civvy hats to wear when off duty. These were required to be worn so that you could raise them when greeting ladies when out in town, and of course to acknowledge the salutes of airmen who happened to recognise you (they were in uniform, with hats, of course!). Also essential when "calling" on Mrs station commander soon after your posting in to a new station. I suspect all this is about as familiar to younger PPruners as life in the army of the Raj, but I quite liked it. Nowadays regrettably my hat serves only to keep the Cornish sun (or more often rain) off my rapidly expanding bald patch :sad:

sitigeltfel
17th Jul 2009, 06:05
Back in the seventies, at the height of the PIRA activity, I remember an order went out asking airmen not to salute any officers in civvy dress they met in a public place. They were only to give a nod of acknowledgement. I believe it started in NI, but spread to some bases on the mainland. It was funny at times as you would see an airman you recognised approaching and his right arm would give an instinctive twitch before settling back down by his side.

Pontius Navigator
17th Jul 2009, 06:12
TTN, I even have my flat cap still. I use it for gardening. Farmer friend asked if it was a dead tortoise. Thought it disgusting. I think that and one pair of socks is all that I have remaining from those days.

I have about as much hair now as I did then too.








Just in different places :}

BEagle
17th Jul 2009, 06:36
The rule about Cranwell Flt Cdts having to wear civilian hats in public was still around in 1968-9. You were required to wear the wretched things if out in civilian clothes in Cranwell village, Lincoln, Grantham or Sleaford. Not to raise to young ladies we knew as we never got much of a chance to meet any - it was in case we recognised one of our officers.

So we used to go to Newark...

When most of us became 'Aerocrat :yuk:' APOs after a year at Cranwell and set off for 3-4 years of fun, drunken debauchery and UAS flying, many a civvy hat was given a Viking funeral on the JMPG on the night we came hossifers!

I guess the rule died out when the first Graduate entrants arrived on the scene at RAFC? 'Calling' had gone out only a few years before I joined.

Another old 'personal behaviour' rule we were taught was that a male officer may not form a close relationship with a female officer on the same station! Some old Queen Bees still enforced this as late as 1977! A Wg Cdr and a WRAF Flt Lt who lived-in and were 'going out together' :ooh: on a station at which I was serving had to leave the station in different cars at different times to avoid the old biddy's attention and displeasure!

Tell that to 't yoof of today......

sitigeltfel
17th Jul 2009, 06:43
Are Gurkhas still required to wear Mufti when out and about, avec chapeau?

Pontius Navigator
17th Jul 2009, 07:10
sitigeltfel, it would appear so. You only had to see the Gurkhas with Joanna Lumley to realise that they were impeccably attired, hatted, and regimental ties.

Few years ago I dined with an Air Cdre, ex-OC 12, and another ex-12 officer. Neither recognised my tie.

How many current sqn aircrew wear, or even own, a sqn tie? The last one I bought was in the 60s and I don't recall sqn ties being on offer since then.

That said, we have just been given a sqn tie, don't know which sqn, but it appears to have a Merlin at the bottom. Quite classy but as likely as not to be a company tie.

PS, I also have Bomber Command, 1 Gp and Strike Command ties. Has anyone thought of an Air Command one?

Samuel
17th Jul 2009, 08:15
As an RNZAF Flt Lt in ANZUK [74-76], I briefly lived in Hyde Park Gate at Seletar, which [Station] had been taken over by the Singapore Armed Forces. The SAF had taken over the security on the gate from the RAF Police, and were very keen to show they could do the job. I always wore my SD hat [it fitted quite nicely in my standard issue Aussie Holden], so I was always smartly saluted on entry, with my Seletar Pass handy, but I discovered to my dismay one day that my wife had long since lost her pass, but was happily waving a Wellington City Council Library card every time she came in. She smiled with it and was never stopped!

I wouldn't have dreamed of going anywhere without my hat by the way!

SlopJockey
17th Jul 2009, 10:36
Mike Read: I was ashamed to see a group captain in uniform without hat wandering around the local Tesco.

Not quite sure what the point of your objection is Mike. Said Gp Capt was inside a building so hat should not be worn. I take it all other aspects of his dress were present and correct. Did he have comedy socks on perchance?

What I find most perturbing is that any officer, never mind a Gp Capt, would stoop to shop in T****s. What next going to Poun***** or Ar***?

I would never have presumed that standards could decline so far.

SJ

Mike Read
17th Jul 2009, 13:25
SJ, my point was, oh what the hell I've forgotten! Basically I don't like seeing RAF officers, of whatever rank, wandering about in public looking as scruffy as I, particularly when there are RN and Army chaps who seem to appear to look smarter. But I am an old fart.

In 1956 when we were all very poor the Tangmere wing were nominated as "Quickfire" to fly at short notice to warm places. We were given a tropical uniform allowance which most used to reduce their overdraft. Then Nasser did the dirty and we were told to go to Cyprus. A mad rush to Milletts in Pompey ensued so we arrived with WW2 surplus KD. Expecting to be there for about ten days it it never seemed worth while to get new kit made but ten days extended gradually to five months. We were the scruffiest officers in the Middle East by far, and proud of it too. (but we wore hats)

Pontius Navigator
17th Jul 2009, 14:48
As far as pongos and T****s. there is a mega one at Sandhurst. Now I was there one evening and there were several, I presume, cadets, all in pinstriped suits in the checkout queue. There were all buying identical check shirts and high-energy comfort food.

Should we all return to business suits when shopping?

I have had people usher me forward in the queue when wearing uniform and buying only one or two items.

BEagle
17th Jul 2009, 14:55
Perhaps it was just the smell of wee that persuaded them to let you past?

Pontius Navigator
17th Jul 2009, 16:06
Perhaps it was just the smell of wee that persuaded them to let you past?

I may be past it but they let me passed.

unclenelli
17th Jul 2009, 16:10
Pontius
I'm not referring to the local ATC cadets (I instruct with a local Sqn), but the school chums of said ATC cadets who decide that the Air Training Corps (or ACF, CCF, Sea Cadets, Scouts, Guides, Junior Red Cross etc) is not for them, but would rather hang around shopping centres wearing baseball caps under hooded sweatshirts, with a cigarette in hand, and paring knife tucked in waist band of oversized jeans which are hung too low for functionality.

Would you be comfortable walking past a gang of hoodies on a Saturday in a large shopping centre in uniform???

muppetofthenorth
17th Jul 2009, 16:37
Would you be comfortable walking past a gang of hoodies on a Saturday in a large shopping centre in uniform???

Yes, because the vast majority of them are cowards and wouldn't dare do something when people can see them.



Walking past them on a deserted street late at night, however, is another matter.

Pontius Navigator
17th Jul 2009, 17:21
I agree with MuppetoftheNorth.

The problem at night, when fuelled with drugs etc is they see a 'soldier' as an easy way to prove their manhood.

Sometimes they get it wrong :)

Friend of mine, ex-SAS (yes, really) faced up to one group. When this 68-yr old wasn't frightened, they legged it. Another little chap about 78 and all of 5ft 4 and 8 stone, floored a thug, 6ft and 16st plus.

What thug didn't know was that after war service in the RN Brookie was 'volunteered' to join the Army as surplus to RN requirements. He completed his re-training just in time for Arnhem.

Years later, Brookie was at Guernsey airport putting his baggage into a taxi. Voice bellowed out "Brookie, come here." Where upon the Governor, a Rear-Admiral no less, had the taxi driver put Brookie's luggage into the State car and then drove him to his hotel. The Governor then carried his luggage into the hotel. Style!

ian16th
17th Jul 2009, 17:42
How many current sqn aircrew wear, or even own, a sqn tie? The last one I bought was in the 60s and I don't recall sqn ties being on offer since then.I can't speak for the current sqdn's, but I got a new tie from the 214 Sqdn Assoc only a couple of years ago.

The original one was such poor quality, it barely lasted 50 years :rolleyes:

Pontius Navigator
17th Jul 2009, 17:45
ian, associations yes, as they also wear blazers and proper trousers. I expect the V-force reunion will have a fair sprinkling of sqn ties too.

pontifex
17th Jul 2009, 19:57
Yeah, but which squadron? Shall I take them all and rotate them during the day?

airborne_artist
17th Jul 2009, 20:40
Would you be comfortable walking past a gang of hoodies

Chum and I were walking back through the back streets of Hammersmith after a pizza and a couple of beers one evening, when set upon by three aged 16/17 (we were 28 at the time), each with bits of 3x2 from a building site. In no time flat we had one on the deck chewing his weapon, so his mates retreated.

Pity they had chosen an off-duty copper and your correspondent as their targets for the night - they thought we were posh people who'd give up their wallets easily :E

Mother of the "victim" wanted us charged for hurting her son. The police Inspector offered to charge her for wasting his time :ok:

muttywhitedog
17th Jul 2009, 21:18
If you are going to wear your uniform in public, wear it properly.

If you find that too hard then get changed before you go round town.

End of.

ian16th
17th Jul 2009, 21:18
Yeah, but which squadron? Shall I take them all and rotate them during the day?If you've got 'em flaunt 'em.

They're nothing to be ashamed of.

At that event, they're to be proud of.

Tankertrashnav
17th Jul 2009, 22:06
Thanks for the extra advertising for the V Force reunion guys - you will all be welcome, tie or no tie. I'll be giving my 214 tie an outing Ian, but I may leave the panama at home. For those of you who still havent heard about it, all the gen is here V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/)

Tourist
18th Jul 2009, 19:01
Muttywhitedog

"If you are going to wear your uniform in public, wear it properly.

If you find that too hard then get changed before you go round town.

End of"

I would just like to say that I will wear it how I damn please, and whether or not I can be arsed to get changed will not be influenced one jot by a bunch of ex cold-warriors who had and have nothing to worry about other than clothing etiquette.
End of

Logistics Loader
18th Jul 2009, 19:07
S/L pilot from secret Wilts transport base,
shopping in Swindon Sainsburys in flying suit , no hat !!

what was worse was the fact he is perfectly fit and had the nerve to park in a disabled bay...
being totally gobsmacked i didnt find the words to berate this prize 1
PEN 1 S !!

next time i will...!!!
via the staish !!
foto evidence would hang him !!

i took pride in wearing my uniform, sadly some currnet serving types dont...
after all, your being paid to wear so i guess you can decide how to wear it !!

Pontius Navigator
18th Jul 2009, 19:56
Broadening this uniform aspect.

Have you noticed that it is the same with the police?

It used be a ritual. Out of the car, don flat cap, square it up, 'hello Sir, do we know what speed the speed limit is Sir?'

Now you see them, no cap, stab vests almost down to their bellies, shirt hanging out etc etc?

So many people now wear uniforms in a casual manner that it is easy for the military to follow suit. Used to be a time that you would go out in best blues rather than working dress. But as mentioned earlier, we often could not afford to go out.

If you needed money you could cash a small cheque over the bar. Going to a bank was impossible as they were strictly 10-3 M-F and no ATMs.

Things have changed.

Tankertrashnav
18th Jul 2009, 21:54
Tourist


I would just like to say that I will wear it how I damn please, and whether or not I can be arsed to get changed will not be influenced one jot by a bunch of ex cold-warriors who had and have nothing to worry about other than clothing etiquette


Interesting concept, hadn't realised that service personnel could now obey whichever regulations they damn well pleased. Must have missed that change.

Actually looking through the thread I dont think this is a generation thing, a lot of younger serving members seem to agree that standards should be maintained. I think its one of attitude. We had arrogant prats back in the Cold War days as well Tourist, they gave us something to worry about, because obviously, as you say, other than bulling our shoes and pressing our uniforms there was nothing else to do.;)

ian16th
19th Jul 2009, 12:28
cold-warriors who had and have nothing to worry aboutNothing to worry about other than, The war in Korea, EOKA in Cyprus, the Suez Crises, the Mau Mau in Kenya, the 'Communist Uprising' in Malaya, the 'Confrontation' with Indonesia over Borneo and various problems in the sandy places like Aden, Radfan and Oman. I'm sorry if my memory missed out anywhere where someone earned a clasp for their GSM.

This was on top of the pleasant home postings when Mutally Assured Destruction was the nomal way of life. Aircrew wondered if, when the balloon went up, they would have any bases and families to return to and the standard annual GDT training for squadron ground crew was; if the said ballon does go up, you 'see off' the A/C, put your head between your knees and kiss your *rse goodbye!

BEagle
19th Jul 2009, 12:42
...ex cold-warriors who had and have nothing to worry about

Whilst tourist and his jolly jack tar boyfriends were bobbing up and down on the briny between crucial Caribbean flag-waving cockersP missions in their little grey war canoes, those who were ready to f**k off to the East with Aunty Bettie's buckets of sun certainly did take things seriously.

Seeing your first war target folder for the first time was somewhat thought-concentrating. As was learning whether or not you were going to have anywhere to land after vapourising a few thousand of the enemy with Mr Hunting's finest 950lb HEMC weapon.

plasticAF
19th Jul 2009, 14:25
"I think public attitude to wearing civvies in public will vary greatly from town to town. The poor old British serviceman can be greeted as a hero in the South West but find himself on the internet dressed in an orange boiler suit if he so much as polishes his shoes in somewhere like...say....ummmm.....Birmingham maybe??!! The security issues surrounding the 70's and 80's when the IRA couldnt wait to throw us all in bath's of acid may have gone (fingers crossed) but the threat remains VERY real and from an arguably more fanatical enemy"
As can be decoded from my name I'm attached to an ATC unit, in a city also beginning in B..... and the unit is very close to the local mosque! I wear the uniform, even when the wife has phoned me to ask I get more bread or milk from the supermarket. Usually on the way home. Wearing the hat? depends on the uniform. If No2's no I won't CS95 I will. Only had a problem once when lad on till (not anglo saxon) refused to serve me. I asked for duty manager who came advised lad to serve me and behave! Best was SHE wasn't anglo saxon either. Still shop there. I'm polite to people and haven't had a problem yet. Politeness not learnt at Cranwell but ex-pongo father and old fashioned teachers. Daughters learning the same attitude or else.

plasticaf

Lightning Mate
19th Jul 2009, 16:09
BEagle,

Whilst tourist and his jolly jack tar boyfriends were bobbing up and down on the briny between crucial Caribbean flag-waving cockersP missions in their little grey war canoes, those who were ready to f**k off to the East with Aunty Bettie's buckets of sun certainly did take things seriously.

Seeing your first war target folder for the first time was somewhat thought-concentrating. As was learning whether or not you were going to have anywhere to land after vapourising a few thousand of the enemy with Mr Hunting's finest 950lb HEMC weapon.

Concur.

Centreline store on my jet.....

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/we177.jpg

Union Jack
19th Jul 2009, 22:56
As was learning whether or not you were going to have anywhere to land after vapourising a few thousand of the enemy with Mr Hunting's finest 950lb HEMC weapon.

Oh dear! I never realised that BEagle had such a small weapon compared with some of us .... but am quite impressed that he managed to turn a thread on wearing uniform in public into an inter-service willie waving contest!:ok:

Jack

Pontius Navigator
20th Jul 2009, 06:45
I like Lightning Mate's little red hat too. :)

BlackadderIA
20th Jul 2009, 08:14
S/L pilot from secret Wilts transport base,
shopping in Swindon Sainsburys in flying suit , no hat !!

:ugh:

Let's just get this hat matter cleared up once and for all:

1. The RAF do not wear hats when indoors.

2. Supermarkets (and other shops) are buildings and have Roofs.

3. When inside a building with a roof you are indoors.

4. See point 1.

I occasionally stop at the Supermarket in uniform on the way home and I remove my hat as soon as I get inside (I wear it in the car park as that is outside). If any of you National Service types see me sans hat please feel free to tell me and I will politely remind you of point 1 :ok:

Pontius Navigator
20th Jul 2009, 08:23
BlackadderIA, I disagree. At a very secret air base in Lincolnshire, OC AW decreed that hats were to be worn by visitors to SHQ. So, in comliance with his orders, as a visitor, I sat at one meeting with my SD hat perched atop my head until OC PMS, running the meeting, asked why, then, with a wry grin told me I could doff caps.

BEagle
20th Jul 2009, 08:58
PN, refer OC Blunt Wing to BlackadderIA's point 1!

And Union Jack, I didn't feel that the Tou-wrister's snide comments about Cold Warriors should go unremarked. Apologies if that caused you some ansgt.

Tankertrashnav
20th Jul 2009, 09:39
Let's just get this hat matter cleared up once and for all:

1. The RAF do not wear hats when indoors.




Actually this doesn't clear it up for once and for all Blackadder. AP1358 (Dress Regulations for the RAF ...), para 0125 (d) states "Hats are not to be worn when indoors at place of work" (my italics). Now unless servicemen are moonlighting as shelfstackers, Tescos, Sainsburys etc are evidently not places of work as defined in the AP, therefore that rule is not relevant. Just occurred to me, just to penetrate further into the realms of fantasy, did the servicemen and women on the centre court at Wimbledon remove their headdress when the roof slid across?:)

Para 0122 states "all personnel at home units should normally wear plain clothes when they are not required for duty". As that rule appears to be being relaxed, I think it is about time their airships (and lordships and pongoships) issued a directive as to what is or is not permissible in the current climate. Is there anyone on here with a direct line to someone with a few stars who may want to take it up?

Union Jack
20th Jul 2009, 10:51
Apologies if that caused you some angst

BEagle - No worries and certainly no angst, just a gentle tweak to remind you about the "big black war canoes" whose programmes don't allow for too many CTPs!:D

Jack

Schiller
20th Jul 2009, 11:13
Beagle

Can I gently remind you that aviators on Her Majesties grey war canoes in the 60's and 70's also practised flinging Very High Explosive bombs around - when we weren't at a CTP, of course. Agree about the first target folder, though.

moosemaster
20th Jul 2009, 12:47
I seem to remember removing my hat in Church...

Seeing as I didn't work in Church, was I wrong Tankertrashnav?

I did wear uniform travelling to and from work, and occasionally stopped by a town centre shopping district. As I had not gotten home at that point, I remained in uniform, WITH hat. Only upon entering a building would the hat be removed, and replaced directly before leaving the building.

PlasticAF, why do you make a distinction between No2 and DP?

Uniform is uniform, and when in uniform outside, headress is to be worn. Or is it you don't think you look "cool" enough in blues with a beret?

Tankertrashnav
20th Jul 2009, 13:18
Moosemaster - I could have continued on to para 0125 (j) of AP1358 "(Hats are not to worn) .. when attending a church service (female personnel excepted)". So you weren't wrong!

PlasticAF, why do you make a distinction between No2 and DP?


I wondered about that too :confused:

BlackadderIA
20th Jul 2009, 14:15
Tales of hats on in SHQ at Cranditz (which I seem to recall giving a good ignoring on my last visit) have reminded me of a similar tale of woe at a Secret Norfolk Airbase, however, this included hats not just in SHQ but any other place of work except your own.

To those of us posted to other, happier, places this seemed to point strongly to the Staish being a total :mad: (as proved to be the case).

As a highly trained member of the Royal Air Force I consider myself at work 24/7, ready to defend the nation's skies at a moments notice. Therefore, Sainsburys, Tescos etc. are indeed my place of work and should a pair of Backfires pop up from behind the freezer section I'll be right on it.

BEagle
20th Jul 2009, 17:34
I seem to recall an RAFG Jag driver nearly made the Reichsbank Niederkruchten or somewhere his place of work by depositing his Anglo-French supersonic lawn dart in their car park, then phoning the Sqn Ops Desk for wheels for him and his parachute!

BlackadderIA - absolutely!

Union Jack - understood. Your 'toys' were indeed bigger...... MUCH bigger!!

Rossian
20th Jul 2009, 17:58
If he really has only one post - Who let him in?
The Ancient Mariner

Tankertrashnav
20th Jul 2009, 22:17
Maxtor epson

If you are going to be abusive, have the guts to use your real name to post under, instead of pretending to be a probationer who mysteriously knows about Beagle!

By the way mods, do we allow terms such as "shirtlifter" and "poofter" on here. I'm an old git, but it all seems a bit 70's to me

PPRuNe Pop
21st Jul 2009, 17:31
Listen up guys.

I have banned two people and deleted posts of two others as not acceptable.

What is also not acceptable is abuse, but then the good guys know that, as they do about allowable banter. However, we have one or two who who deserve a playpen complete with toys. Can't do that so they are gone.

Pete268
21st Jul 2009, 17:37
Well travelling in uniform seems to have its perks.

A week or two back, whilst on a train travelling 'up north' from London, 3 young army lads, dressed in desert DPM's (whatever they are nowadays called) were sat across the cariage from me. After chatting briefly with them, it turned out they were on route back home from Afghanistan.

Being a charitable chap, I bought them a beer each when the trolley came past. Then cue the table filling up with beer cans as almost all the passengers who wandered down to the buffet carriage dropped more and more full cans off at the lads table on their way back. Even the Customer Service Manager (the guard in old money) left half a dozen cans on their table.

By the time I got off the train at York, the lads were somewhat happy but nevertheless very well behaved and quiet. No doubt senior army officers would have frowned at the lads drinking in public in uniform, but the public sure appreciated the contribution and sacrifices made by personnel in HM Forces.

Peter

sitigeltfel
21st Jul 2009, 18:52
If one is required to carry a hat, the most convenient place to stick it is upon ones head.

LeggyMountbatten
21st Jul 2009, 19:22
I seem to recall an RAFG Jag driver nearly made the Reichsbank Niederkruchten or somewhere his place of work by depositing his Anglo-French supersonic lawn dart in their car park, then phoning the Sqn Ops Desk for wheels for him and his parachute!


Not forgetting the seat. The buzz in the COC was that when he first called he was told to call back later as they were a bit busy. The Sparkie manager plied him with schnapps until Ops realised where he was! :D Time may have embellished the story of course. Don't think he had his SD with him.

BEagle
21st Jul 2009, 19:56
If one is required to carry a hat, the most convenient place to stick it is upon ones head

Not always so. I once had a wonderfully bashed SD cap - it had spent all of Gulf War 1 in the bottom of my helmet bag. It was so floppy that it could easily be stuffed into a flying suit lower leg pocket...

Until the Boss spotted it. No "Get a new hat, BEagle!" - he took the simpler expedient of feeding it to a mate's labrador...

After prising it from the beast's dripping jaws, I shoved it in my helmet bag again and forgot about it - I had another 'Parades, weddings and bollockings' hat - this then became my in-use hat. Unfortunately I left it behind one day when flying to Incirlik for a few weeks as DetCo and had to use the labrador-slobbered SD cap (with a large chunk out of the peak!) during the daily dash from wherever I'd parked the turbo-Sahin to the morning O-group...:ooh:

Eventually even the in-use hat was a bit too tatty for anything other than 'normal duties' - so I bought a new 'best hat' for next to nothing from stores :8.

It was pressed into service a few months later whilst giving the AOC a somewhat sympathetic ear.....:uhoh: Mind you, it cost a ridiculously small amount of dosh - less than £20 in 2002!!

Pontius Navigator
21st Jul 2009, 20:03
.. . . a wonderfully bashed SD cap . . . so floppy that it could easily be stuffed into a flying suit lower leg pocket...

Walked into the Starchef at Geilenkirchen. In the entrance amongst lots of other NATO headgear was a solitary SD Hat.

I said to my colleague - Fl*tt*n.

We went into the restaurant and sure enough, there was Fl*tt*n. Now he had absolutely no connection with the NATO AEW Force and had simply dropped in for lunch.

Now how many can claim an SD Hat that can be distinguised from thousands of there. At least no one would steal it.

JessTheDog
21st Jul 2009, 20:56
About six or seven years ago, I remember the Flt Lt who appeared to be visiting High Wycombe for the day...he had forgotten his hat and was discussing this with the gate guard, who was advising him to borrow one from somewhere or pop into stores rather than pass through the main gate hatless.

The brave fellow pressed on sans hat. Not sure what happened to him, fair game really! :}

I also remember my colleague of the same rank walking alongside me with jacket unzipped after lunch one afternoon (got to let the belly hang out I guess)....window of some random building opened with a b0ll0cking thrown out with it, much to my amusement....the random staff officer probably drifted back off to sleep afterwards...

plasticAF
22nd Jul 2009, 02:18
Tanker and Moose

I don't wear my beret with No2's just DP. My WO would have a quiet chat with me:E

Tanker:

I should have read on from my post before answering you previously.
Sorry:O

moosemaster
22nd Jul 2009, 08:22
OK, so we've established you don't wear beret with No2.

The question still stands however....

Why do you make a distinction between No2 and DP?

What makes it OK to NOT wear headdress with No2?

orgASMic
22nd Jul 2009, 09:46
QR 202 and AP 1358 para 0127 are quite specific.

Cue 'Typical air trafficker getting the rule book out' banter.

moosemaster
22nd Jul 2009, 10:21
....and say what?

For those of us without access to QRs or APs any more.

Wader2
22nd Jul 2009, 10:46
QRJ202:

1. Remove headress in court.
2. uncover when taking the oath (there are religious exceptions.)
3. RAF also comply with AP 1358.

AP1358
0126
a. No 1 SD Hat. The No 1 SD hat is never worn with CS 95.

b. Forage Cap. The forage cap, . . . optional extra . . . forage cap is never worn with CS 95.

c. Beret. How but not when

0127. Hats need not be worn: (QR 202)

a. When indoors at designated place of work.

b. When in FOD hazard areas.

c. When serving detention.

d. When otherwise ordered.

e. When engaged on PEd instructional duties (PTIs only).

f. When attending a church service (female personnel excepted).

g. Male personnel, other than members of the Jewish faith or of other religions which require the head to be covered on solemn occasions, when in civil or Service courts and when taking oaths, are to have the head uncovered whenever they take oaths. (See AP 3265 – Guide to Legal Procedures).

h. Additionally, except when on duty under arms, Service personnel in civil courts are not to wear their headdress while the judge or magistrate is present.

deltadude
22nd Jul 2009, 13:16
I remember the day when you could smoke in Uniform in public amd inside a public building:eek:. The rule i remember was that as long as you were seated and you removed your hat then it was OK, On one occassion passing through Paddington station a small group (about 10 of us) were all sat down by the OC and told to remove head dress and smoke them if we had them.

So this goes back to being the days of being hat less in public and smoking in doors, a crime i believe is now punishable by public floging:=

BEagle
22nd Jul 2009, 13:23
'Need not be worn' is a very weak statement and contains no element of compulsion.

'Shall be worn except' would be a better statement - except that the list would need to be considerably longer, as otherwise it would then be contrary to QRs not to wear your hat whilst having a crap in uniform....or rather, when in uniform having a crap. Or indeed, unless you're a Mess Hand, when dining in Mess!

Berets? Oh dear.....:eek:

Gainesy
22nd Jul 2009, 13:23
Reminds me of that interminable wooly-pully argument in King and Country...

Or the equally tedious run of Air Power features in Air Clues.:ugh:

BEagle
22nd Jul 2009, 13:39
Combining those 2 topics, the original letter in Air Clues suggesting that 'wings' should be worn on the woolly-pully was actually intended as a joke.....

Someone took it seriously, it seems...:rolleyes:

Yes, those wretched 'Air power' articles were brought up at every flight safety course at the time - IFS would get chest poked by at least half the course telling them to $hitcan the damn things.

Only thing worse was 'Letter from the Front'....:yuk:

Gainesy
22nd Jul 2009, 15:13
Argh! I'd forgot about them.:yuk:

Fear The Reaper
22nd Jul 2009, 18:52
Spoke to the CASWO about wearing headress when filling up vehicles and pumping tyres up at a garage and he thought it would be reasonable not to wear it. However, if you park up and then go to the shop then you should wear your hat to the shop - he seemed pretty pragmatic about the whole thing :D.

I do think that something like a CBN telling what is and what isn't acceptable would be a good thing, though.

Reaper

Roland Pulfrew
22nd Jul 2009, 21:17
a. No 1 SD Hat. The No 1 SD hat is never worn with CS 95.


Oh C0ck! That will really disappoint my old IOT flt cdr. :eek: He always used to say that the beret was only for Regiment Officers and airmen; a real officer would never choose to wear one! If a No 1 SD hat was good enough for the desert air force I see no reason to change now.:suspect:

Yes, those wretched 'Air power' articles were brought up at every flight safety course

BEags Great news! In the new improved RAF FS empire Air Clues is to return as the RAF Flight Safety magazine; hopefully no air power articles to be included, but they are looking for some "I learnt about flying from that" articles. I am sure you have a few you might like to contribute;)

BEagle
22nd Jul 2009, 21:27
a. No 1 SD Hat. The No 1 SD hat is never worn with CS 95

That's OK - if you still had whatever cabbage kit was called before Clockwork Squaddie 95 appeared, then you didn't need a beret, eh Roly? Wasn't there some yokel jungle hat thing which was allegedly worn with said cabbage kit??

I survived from 1974-2003 with neither a beret (lost) nor a raincoat (stolen). As I'm sure was the same for most aircrew of that era......:\

Good to hear that Air Clues is to make a long overdue return!

Tankertrashnav
22nd Jul 2009, 22:02
Roland Pulfrew


He always used to say that the beret was only for Regiment Officers and airmen; a real officer would never choose to wear one


my italics

Funny, when I was a young Regiment officer we didn't consider aircrew as real officers - something to do with few of them ever having experience of command, at least until well into their careers. (eg I had 80 blokes in my flight at Seletar when I was 20).

Of course when I converted to aircrew I rapidly became a typical crew room cowboy and changed my views entirely!

By the way as a Rockape I had a really snazzy Gieves officer's beret - do officers now make do with stores' ones? Some of them look suspiciously like it :eek:

plasticAF
22nd Jul 2009, 22:52
Moosemaster

As i said to tankertrashnav (in a PM) I have a problem looking at the upper shelves in the supermarket with the SD. I end up leaning away from the shelves and as I'm i there at 2230 plus getting the bread or milk for the grumpy 2yr olds breakfast after being up at 0530 to go to work I just can't be bothered to brain myself on a trolly full of shelf stackers trash.

In future I'll wear a civvy jacket over the uniform and blend in.

Plasticaf

Seldomfitforpurpose
23rd Jul 2009, 00:07
Went to the Tesco mini store in Lyneham village today resplendent in my flying suit.

Once parked, on exiting the car placed beret on head walked to store entrance.

Entered and removed head gear. Shopped and purchased goods.

Prior to exiting store placed beret on head and proceeded to car.

At car, entered drivers side removed beret and drove home.

How difficult is that :ok:

Al R
23rd Jul 2009, 06:56
Tanksters said: Funny, when I was a young Regiment officer we didn't consider aircrew as real officers - something to do with few of them ever having experience of command, at least until well into their careers. (eg I had 80 blokes in my flight at Seletar when I was 20).

Ahem. You were mentored by NCOs and processed travel claims, you mean! :=

amostcivilpilot
23rd Jul 2009, 07:31
Unfortunately in todays society it has become acceptable to dress in what ever manner the celebrity of the moment deems to be in fashion regardless of where one might be seen :rolleyes:

This view seems to have also filtered into our working life and ethos as well. I find it amusing that there is almost a hostile reaction to those who want to look good in their uniform ( or civvies) from those who aren't bothered as there is there is from those who are! :ugh:

On a personal level, I would never dream of appearing in public (work, office, airport, etc) in a scruffy uniform (civilian) in the same manner as I would not have done ( or been allowed to ) in the military.

I think that half the problem is that some people find it difficult to balance their work attitudes with their social perspective.

On time off or after duty it perfectly okay to dress down but there is a time and place.

Perhaps we should go back to these examples for those in uniform!

RAF Trainee aircrew Canada WWII

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z231/Seaking111/c57801ea.jpg?t=1248333434


http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z231/Seaking111/9e21a987.jpg?t=1248333596

EdSett100
23rd Jul 2009, 07:55
Went to the Tesco mini store in Lyneham village today resplendent in my flying suit.


How difficult is that http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Not difficult, but could be illegal. This discussion has been about dress regulations and common sense so, on the point of regulations, the AP reminds us that flying suits are not to be worn routinely off station. I cannot remember if the village was considered (iaw SSOs) as part of the station. Common sense might suggest that it is. There are/were married quarters in the village.

Ed

HighHeeled-FA
23rd Jul 2009, 08:11
amostcivilpilot,

What do you mean "go back to" :ok:

We cabin crew always dress smartly! Some could work on their smile though!

BEagle
23rd Jul 2009, 08:17
Doesn't the stewardess in that photo still work for ba?

As to whether nipping in to the shops in a flying suit is 'legal', define 'routinely'......:hmm:

Watch out, the Service Police button checkers are out and about!

Pontius Navigator
23rd Jul 2009, 08:19
On time off or after duty it perfectly okay to dress down but there is a time and place.

You may remember when the 6442 and 1369 had a box for commenting on personal appearance both ON and OFF duty.

This rather begged the question as I would set off 25 miles in one direction and my SNCO 25 miles in 'tother.

Knowing that he was a scruffy b*gger how often did the RO actually write that down unless he turned up at a unit function? Given some 'modern' fashions, how could you tell even?

Tankertrashnav
23rd Jul 2009, 08:27
Ahem. You were mentored by NCOs and processed travel claims, you mean! :=


Al

Yes I'll admit having a fantastic WO and NCOs took away a lot of the work load

BUT

After a serious fire which resulted in three fatalities I was the one sitting in front of the board of enquiry answering some very searching questions about the actions of the fire crews on the day and their preparedness for such an event (all ultimately my responsibility). Certainly made me realise we werent playing games.

amostcivilpilot
23rd Jul 2009, 08:38
HighHeeled-FA

I am sure you do! My wife being ex cabin crew had a similar comment :ok:

Maybe they should try this for a cabin briefing and try to raise a smile!

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z231/Seaking111/8e01ebd5.jpg?t=1248338224

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
23rd Jul 2009, 08:41
Seldomfitforpurpose. So you weren’t arrested for wearing your escape knife in public, then. :ok:

Seldomfitforpurpose
23rd Jul 2009, 09:07
Seldomfitforpurpose. So you weren’t arrested for wearing your escape knife in public, then. :ok:

Not had one of those for years :ok:

rock34
23rd Jul 2009, 10:22
Tankertrashnav,

(when I was a young Regiment officer we didn't consider aircrew as real officers - something to do with few of them ever having experience of command, at least until well into their careers.)

Don't worry, we still consider the same for exactly the same reasons! :ok:

LeggyMountbatten
23rd Jul 2009, 11:16
the AP reminds us that flying suits are not to be worn routinely off station.

It's the old tension about is flying clothing part of the uniform or simply protective clothing (as in overalls)? A Stn Cdr at Bruggen (no longer with us) was "persuaded" not to hold an orderly room in his flying clothing, presumably with SD. Would that still be the case? Dropping standards or recognising that flying clothing is part of the legit uniform possibilities?

frodo_monkey
23rd Jul 2009, 11:27
It's the old tension about is flying clothing part of the uniform or simply protective clothing (as in overalls)?

Surely you mean No 14 Dress not flying clothing? :8

Seldomfitforpurpose
23rd Jul 2009, 11:32
Fortunately here in Wiltshire the dinosaur has been extinct for a considerable time now :ok:

LeggyMountbatten
23rd Jul 2009, 12:20
Surely you mean No 14 Dress not flying clothing?

Thanks f_m, that brings it up to date (I've been out >20 years). JT would have said now "it's OK, I'm wearing No 14 dress, a legit uniform".

Al R
23rd Jul 2009, 13:06
Al

Yes I'll admit having a fantastic WO and NCOs took away a lot of the work load

BUT

After a serious fire which resulted in three fatalities I was the one sitting in front of the board of enquiry answering some very searching questions about the actions of the fire crews on the day and their preparedness for such an event (all ultimately my responsibility). Certainly made me realise we werent playing games.

:uhoh: Nothing like a reality check for focusing the mind eh..?

I can think of some (ex QCS) WOs and NCOs who would look smarter dressed in a sandbag than many of us (me included) ever presented in uniform. It doesn't take a lot of noggin (as Seldomfitforpurpose kindly demonstrates) for someone to ever so quickly don headress walking to and from a car. The public, I think, rather likes the old fashioned quirkiness of the military.

Chugalug2
23rd Jul 2009, 14:48
Certainly this bit of the public has long been in awe of your undoubted quirkiness, Al, old fashioned or otherwise! The Armed Forces are ever more appreciated these days, albeit for tragic reasons of which we are all too sadly aware. So it is good that we see you ladies and gentlemen out and about more and more. But please remember that the very reason we recognise you as being part of the Armed Forces means that you are a representative of your unit, station, Service, etc as well. So please, please, wear your uniforms amongst us, but always of course with pride, and with a hat if possible!

threeputt
23rd Jul 2009, 15:57
Danny Gourd for a start! RIP.

3P:ok:

sitigeltfel
23rd Jul 2009, 16:06
Not sure if many of you remember the heatwave back in 76. I was at Bawtry and the AOC gave permission for everyone to remove ties and have shirts sleeves rolled up while the temperature soared. I had to make a trip over to Finningley for some matter and was approached by the SWO. The conversation went something like this.

SWO, 'scuse me sir, you're not wearing a tie.
Me, Thats right, we have temporary dispensation from the AOC not to wear them.
SWO, What AOC would that be sir?
Me, AVM Lagesen, AOC 1 Group.
SWO, Ah, that's the problem sir, this isn't 1 Group.

Mr C Hinecap
23rd Jul 2009, 16:47
The splendid pic of the young chap adjusting his uniform reminded me of a mirror in a section at Brize Norton. All it said on the sign at the top of the mirror was:

"Are you smart enough for a b0llocking?"

I have always taken that as the basic standard.

Tankertrashnav
23rd Jul 2009, 17:31
Danny Gourd for a start! RIP.



Ah, the legendary Danny. I was a PO at Catterick when he was SWO (or more correctly Depot WO) Returning his never less than immaculate salutes on passing, I was always painfully aware that his beady eye had given my appearance and bearing the once over and found me sadly wanting! No doubt Danny was grateful for the enhanced pension etc, but I always thought it was a shame when he was commissioned - the RAF had loads of Flying Officers but all too few outstanding WO's.

RIP indeed! :ok:

Al R
23rd Jul 2009, 18:10
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/feeley/photoalbum2/schick/dannygourd_sm.jpg

threeputt
23rd Jul 2009, 20:54
We were on the same OCTU course (199) at Henlow in 1967. I was recoursed more than once and when he graduated ahead of me, he passed on his parade standard drill boots. When I finally passed out 13 months after arriving (203 Cse)I floated on air as I knew for sure that I had the shiniest boots in Bedfordshire. Happy Days.

3P:ok:

Union Jack
23rd Jul 2009, 22:54
Almostcivilpilot's photographs of mirrors, combined with a list of uniform items to be checked by RAF personnel and air hostesses (sic) going on duty, reminded me of visiting Redford Barracks in Edinburgh where the mirror was mounted horizontally so that the orderly room staff could check that the Jocks were properly dressed when leaving the barracks, namely by wearing nothing under their kilt!:ooh:

Jack

Clockwork Mouse
24th Jul 2009, 07:47
wearing nothing under their kilt!
Beadwindow?

Tankertrashnav
4th May 2012, 21:33
I had this link sent to me by Ian16th, one of our members in South Africa - an old Valiant hand, and it seemed like a good opportunity to revive this thread after nearly three years. (thanks Ian).

Pink slippers land colonel in hot water | News24 (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pink-slippers-land-colonel-in-hot-water-20120504)

When you think that lady is a Lieutenant Colonel then it puts some of the moans on this thread into proportion :eek:

MG
4th May 2012, 21:48
an information officer in the army’s department for joint operations in Pretoria.
Isn't that how we do jointery as well?!:)

Riskman
4th May 2012, 22:57
The photograph was taken by a colleague and sent to the air force for comment.

Said colleague needs to stay out of reach of those forearms:eek:

SASless
4th May 2012, 23:08
Wader....if one were to take the oath at when re-enlisting...you were armed with your rifle....outdoors....and in Ranks.....would you remove your Headgear during the oath?

taxydual
5th May 2012, 05:33
The late Archie Winskill (when Captain of The Queens Flight) once greeted HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother, at the bottom of the Andover airstairs, resplendent in No 1 blue uniform and suede desert boots.

Archies' feet hurt, HM commiserated saying she 'knew the feeling'.

Al R
5th May 2012, 05:57
TTN: Returning his never less than immaculate salutes on passing, I was always painfully aware that his beady eye had given my appearance and bearing the once over and found me sadly wanting! No doubt Danny was grateful for the enhanced pension etc, but I always thought it was a shame when he was commissioned - the RAF had loads of Flying Officers but all too few outstanding WO's.

My contemporaries are now filling WO/SWO slots, so I can see the transformation from human being to Warrant Officer. Those type of characters develop seamlessly into the role, as people of that calibre/inclination always have done I suppose. It might be a generational thing, but looking back at that shot of Danny Gourd, its probably easier to look the part in bulled ammo boots and Serge battledress than the modern gear.

Having said that, I bumped into one of my old WOs the other month - dragged backwards through a hedge and then dressed in an old sandbag, he would still look smarter and have more presence than me. An ex QCS WO, he would (frequently) shame the Guards Division with his deportment. What was scary, was that he was always polite and hardly ever failed to say please and thank you when fixing you with a beady expression; "Please leave my office immediately and return in no later than 25 minutes dressed in your Number 1s. Thank you". Just reading that back, I still felt my bowels shift slightly.

Its good to see the uniform worn smartly in the public eye and the troops who wear it to the shops these days do so with a sense of self awareness and spring in their step that my 'generation' didn't generally have - and probably with good reason. I was at Odiham this week and felt like a crusty old fart when I caught myself actually feeling pleased to see so much smartness on display!

Tiger_mate
5th May 2012, 11:35
I was at Odiham this week and felt like a crusty old fart when I caught myself actually feeling pleased to see so much smartness on display!

Though I dare say not enough 'blue' and way too much green or variations of the same, despite comments published in clothing regs by CAS a few years ago.

I like to consider myself one who wears a smart blue uniform, however the trousers are formally number ones, shoes of oxford pattern purchased at own expense, and a black silk tie purchased at own expense because the issued kit these days is rubbish quality. Being an aircrew chap one has several generations of jumper including the previous Vee neck plain weave version and it would still be in use were it not for a hole that chose a prominent position to appear; its replacement is also rubbish quality. Maintaining standards does not come cheap.

ian16th
28th Nov 2012, 13:21
This has been resolved.
Pink slippers land colonel in hot water | News24 (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pink-slippers-land-colonel-in-hot-water-20120504)

See:
Lieutenant grounded for 'borrowing' plane | News24 (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Lieutenant-grounded-for-borrowing-plane-20121128)

As a Boy Entrant at Yatesbury I don't think I would have been treated quite so leniently.

I'd probably still be on jankers.

langleybaston
28th Nov 2012, 13:38
Always a pleasure to see the RAF in Stamford in uniform.

BUT the cadets of Stamford School are a heap of sh1t and never seem to wear headdress out of doors.

Need a nice friendly SWO, methinks.

How about Mr Warwick then?

Onceapilot
28th Nov 2012, 15:22
Can anyone update me on the regs for wearing headress indoors these days?
Thanks.

OAP

Heathrow Harry
28th Nov 2012, 15:24
unnecessary - modern roofs don't leak......

Climebear
28th Nov 2012, 18:04
Can anyone update me on the regs for wearing headress indoors these days?
Thanks.

OAP

Officially - in AP1358 - not required to be worn indoors at place of work. Or, for males, in church.

I agree with HH's sentiment; however, given the state of the Defence estate, I wouldn't guarantee that our roofs don't leak (even the comparatively modern ones)

Rosevidney1
28th Nov 2012, 18:35
This has been resolved.
Pink slippers land colonel in hot water | News24 (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pink-slippers-land-colonel-in-hot-water-20120504)

See:
Lieutenant grounded for 'borrowing' plane | News24 (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Lieutenant-grounded-for-borrowing-plane-20121128)

As a Boy Entrant at Yatesbury I don't think I would have been treated quite so leniently.

I'd probably still be on jankers.

And Tankertrashnav will suffer a fit of the vapours when he reads this!

Tankertrashnav
28th Nov 2012, 21:30
Pass me the smelling salts Jeeves :eek:

TurningFinals
29th Nov 2012, 23:08
If I go to Tesco in uniform, I wear my hat until I get to the door and then remove as i walk into the building. Although the AP says -

Hats need not be worn: (QR 202)
a. When indoors at designated place of work.

So I should wear it in the store because i don't work in Tesco...?