FAA to JAA questions

[Raskolnikov]

Hello everyone,

I'm a FAA CFI, CFII with about 600 total time, working on adding on the multi-engine to my commercial certificate. My wife is from Austria and we would like to move back there some time soon.

I've looked into a bunch of threads on flight training for JAA. Has anyone done this in Austria? I've been looking into this place: MOTORFLUGUNION KLOSTERNEUBURG - LEARN TO FLY HERE (http://www.mfu.at)

The distance learning ground school for the 14 written exams is 4,500 Euros, considerably more expensive than CATS. Is it possible to sit the written exams through CATS then do flight training in Austria? Or is it a better option to do all the training through one country? I don't want to ruffle the feather of the Austrian school where I'll likely be doing the flight training.

On the website for the school in Austria is says they will honor my prior experience by my times must be verified. Does anyone know what they mean by verify the time in my logbook? I just enter the time myself after each lesson. So I'm a bit confused by this.

Providing the economy eventually turns back around, what are the odds of gaining employment with a European airline with the JAA ATPL(A)? Is there anything else required? In the US you just need a commercial certificate with an instrument rating and enough hours in the logbook to be competitive for the position. Is it similar in the JAA countries?

Could someone provide a rough estimate for the cost of this FAA to JAA conversion? I know there's a bunch of stuff involved and a lot will depend on my proficiency. Just looking for an estimate to budget for.

Thanks for assisting a first-time poster to PPRUNE.

-Josh

[B2N2]

On the website for the school in Austria is says they will honor my prior experience by my times must be verified. Does anyone know what they mean by verify the time in my logbook? I just enter the time myself after each lesson. So I'm a bit confused by this.


Are you actively instructing?
If yes, let the Chief Flight Instructor sign your logbook stating all the entries are correct. Ask for a print-out of the accounting system the school uses.
Your hours are also verified by the DPE on your checkride for the ME add-on.
So plenty of evidence, don't worry about it.
You can also give AeronautX (http://www.aeronautx.at/) a try.

[Raskolnikov]

Thanks for the link B2N2. My wife has a job offer in Linz so that's perfect. I found some more schools on www.apoa.at.

I am a current instructor. I teach at a ma and pa FBO on a privately owned airport open to the public. All the instructors on the field are self employed so I am my own chief flight instructor. I suppose the FAA from 8710 will be good enough to verify flight times. I'll have to check with the school in Austria to confirm.

[BigGrecian]

To answer the question about conversions - I would say budget around $15,000 all in.

Seems to be a low average all in by the time you include landing/approach fees, exam fees etc.

[Romeo India Xray]

Is it possible to sit the written exams through CATS then do flight training in Austria? Or is it a better option to do all the training through one country?If you want to chop and change between EASA/JAR States, it has to be with the agreement of both Authorities, Ref JAR-FCL 1.065. Some are more than ready to "agree", others are not.

In the US you just need a commercial certificate with an instrument rating and enough hours in the logbook to be competitive for the position. Is it similar in the JAA countries?If you want to exercise privileges as an IRI, you will need over 800 hours under IFR (not to mention the IR on your JAR licence) - ref JAR-FCL 1.395. Instructor jobs for PPL are easier to come by. I can't say exactly how the situation in Austria is, but here you would be joining a bottom heavy job market.

Good luck with whatever you decide and good luck for the move!

RIX

[INNflight]

I am just halfway into doing the FAA > JAA conversion, also living in Austria.

Some things you may want to consider before you jump:

Austrian flight schools (and the Austrian CAA (Austrocontrol)) do NOT LIKE conversions. They prefer selling their 60k ab-initio ATPL packages and not bother with the pain of people who did their training in the US.

I spent 4 months doing e-mails, letters, phonecalls and visits at most of the FTO's in Austria, plus spent what feels like 400hrs on the phone with Austrocontrol, and the conclusion was:

Apart from one FTO in Salzburg ("flighttrack"), none even WANTED my business!! They said they know too little about the process, or said they are too busy with their integrated courses. Basically told me to go :mad: OFF! :ugh:

Second thing to consider: The cost!

A poster above said you should expect spending about 15,000, that sounds about right, but can be more if you do not pay attention to details.

IMPORTANT IS: Even though all JAA memberstates should follow JAR-FCL (the equivalent of your FAR's, as I am sure you know), every country is given a lot of leeway in making some own rules into it.

For example:

Switzerland: No retraining required
Austria: Retraining as FTO deems necessary
The UK: 15hrs instrument, 10 in a FNTP II sim (if I recall that correctly)
etc...

Make sure you get in writing what amount of retraining you have to do before you enroll with them, don't let anyone screw you with that. 10hrs multi-engine cost a small fortune in Europe, compared to the States.

Next on the list:

Staying fresh!
I can assure you you will miss the flying extremely!!! You have to pass all 14 JAA ATPL exams before you can go for the checkrides for the conversion!

The exams are some 14,000 questions in total (compared to 1,300 in the FAA ATP exam), so it will take a great deal of self-discipline and time-management to get it done in say six months).

During that period, you can not fly in Europe - at all! There may be the odd FAA registered aircraft around to rent, but from my experiences these people know exactly what they can charge for them, and most are even more expensive than their JAA equivalents. Not worth it!

If you can, enroll in a ATPL theory distance learning course, and study all the material in the States while you can still keep flying. Do not expect to know most of the materia already, as 80% of the theory there is useless for flying. Most of the stuff you will hardly ever need again - it's a challenge basically.

In the end I am sure it will be worth it though, coming back is nice! :ok:

edit: If you care for a personal hint: Have a look at "Horizon SFA" in Zurich, Switzerland! They are probably the only flight school that offers a good JAA ATPL Theory distance learning package, because they have a "special conversion offer" for people just like us. If costs about 3000 euros in total, including all textbooks (Oxford Aviation Academy theory books). I can recommend them, however realize that if you go that way you will have to take the exams in Switzerland, not in Vienna!

(I wouldn't recommend doing the practical conversion part with them though, horrendously expensive! approx. 300 euros for 1 hr in their FNTP II sim, approx. 550 euros for 1 hr in their Diamond Twin Star...!)

If you have more questions, shoot on :E

[Fitnesspilot737]

'During that period, you can not fly in Europe - at all!'


You can fly though if you have your FAA CPL but only day VFR....

[Raskolnikov]

Thanks for the details INNflight. I'm just starting out looking for some information on how to get started. I've emailed Austrocontrol with some questions but it's been about four business days now and no response from them. I sure hope it's not going to be the months long struggle you had to go through. I'll probably end up having to call them.

The school I emailed in Linz seemed nice enough but the lady who answered my email wasn't able to answer specific questions about the whole process and referred me to Austrocontrol. She was saying I would have to first get the PPL, then CPL(A), then IR(A) before I could even start with the distance learning for the ATPL(A). Seems a strange way to do it. I sure hope id don't really need the PPL(A) and can start with the CPL(A).

B2N2, I emailed the contact you sent me. Just waiting for a reply. Hopefully he can shed some light on this.

A fight instructor at a school in Vienna, Klosterneuburg, was quite helpful, but again didn't know for sure what was required for the conversion.

I'd like to get a confirmation from Austrocontrol before I start throwing Euros around.

Schools in the UK seem to have their act together a bit more since this is what they specialize in. But one reason I wanted to do this in Austria was to make some contacts/network so that I might be able to slide my foot in the door at Tyrolian. That and my wife has a job offer in Linz. would be nice to be with her.

Thanks everyone!

[INNflight]

but the lady who answered my email wasn't able to answer specific questions about the whole process and referred me to Austrocontrol. She was saying I would have to first get the PPL, then CPL(A), then IR(A) before I could even start with the distance learning for the ATPL(A).

Same experience exactly as I had. I was told to contact Autrocontrol for the specifics, and they referred me to asking at the flight schools. :ugh:

It is not true that you have to get a PPL, etc... to start with the DL!
Seems she really got no clue.

You may want to try to contact Mr. Hans Eggl, he is the head of training (or something like that :}) at FlightTrack, a FTO in Salzburg. They were the only ones helping me out a bit, even though their prices are rather on the steep side. You could at least ask for the specifics, they are quite helpful in terms of what you have to do, really. Make sure you give him your license details and TT when first e-mailing him, will make it faster.

Good luck!
INNflt

edit: BTW, as for getting into Tyrolean Airways, don't keep your hopes too high - their future is very uncertain with all the troubles Austrian Airlines (they own them) is in. Most important part will be whether Lufthansa decides to buy the Austrian Group or not. Recruitment won't probably start for a few years. :uhoh:

[marcogfaa]

Hello everybody, I am new to PPRuNe.
I was a flight instructor in the USA, and had to move back to Europe for different reasons.

I spent 6 months touring Europe visiting different schools, trying to find the best place to do my conversions.. FAA to JAA
I knew from my work experience, that in a market like the one we are facing today, the only weapon against being unemployed for a very long timehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif, was training in a school that has the right name and the right tools to help you get there.

I am posting this new thread, to help people that are in the same situation I was(not knowing which schools to do conversions with), saving the time and effort to find a solution.
I took in consideration all major schools that offer conversion program in Europe and in he US...
And after examining all factors, I picked Gestair Flying Academy (Based in Spain and Portugal, with ground school options in Italy) www.gestair.com (http://www.gestair.com).

A lot of schools out there promise and don't deliver.
A lot of them will give you a price that will inevitably grow (oh sorry, we didnt mention the exam fee, or the flight exam aircraft rate...by the way, landing fees were not included, accomodation was not included etc..:ugh:)

A lot of them PROMISE you a job..and don't deliver it at the end (oh yes, the market has changed, we are sorry...like if the market was different when I enrolled one month ago!!!:=)

At Gestair, I paid what I was quoted. Not one penny more. And I am no superhero pilot.
The FI were top notch (CRI's with experience).
The GS training is just over the top, friendly and experienced teachers.
They have a Distance Learning ATPL for who may want to study from home...
They have done a lot of conversions, and are familiar with the FAA world..just to let you know they are in a training alliance with Delta Connetion Academy. What does this mean to you? Well, they will knoow how to use the skills you aquired in the FAA and make it a smooth transition to fly in Europe...
You train on G-1000 brand new A/C, and MCC is on FULL MOTION A320 sim...
The Academy is part of a big group that operates A340, B757, Gulfstream, Citations, Falcons etc, they are TRTO's for a lot of different airplanes...So you know you are getting airline career oriented training.

There are rumors out there...they say that having a Spainsh issued licence will not look goood when you apply for a job (this is what Uk and Irish school will tell you..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/shiner.gif)... even though that is not true

you are getting a Portughese JAA licence..not a Spanish one...

Long story short, I ended up with a job which I am training for right now.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif
Any questions you may have, I will try to answer them.
You can post in Italian if that is your language..

I want it to be clear that this is not an AD..
It's just trying to help new pilots making the right choice.
What do I get out of this? Well, when you will wright me an e-mail saying..
"Dear Marco, I followed your advice, and I am so glad I did...
What you said wasn't BS.. thanks buddy!"
Like it has already happened with my friends that followed my advice on conversion.
That is my reward!

Have a nice day!