NPPL(Microlights) - Advice Wanted

[ECAM_Actions]

Hi,

I'd like to know what is required to obtain an NPPL, or whether it is worth the extra investment to go for a PPL?

My reasons are two-fold. One, it would be fun :} and two, I'd be looking at using it for trips of 350 nm (within the UK).

I understand an NPPL restricts you to day, VFR only (as would a basic PPL). Is it possible to add an instrument rating to an NPPL?

Pushing the regulatory/legal limits, if the aircraft was equipped with a GPS certified for aeronautical use, as long as the aircraft was in VFR conditions, is there any restriction on using it for navigation, or is this officially not allowed (even if it just said "fly that way -> for 50 miles")?

What's the deal regarding weather? Obviously if you embark on a 5 hour flight, the weather is not going to be the same as when you left. How do people flying cross-country over unfriendly terrain (or water for that matter) deal with this? If you turned back for everything, obviously you get nowhere.

(Before I get nailed for being blazé, taking safety lightly etc.. - I can assure you, I'm not; I ask questions to get answers/opinions, no matter how rediculous they might appear :) ).

Thanks in advance.

ECAM Actions.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi,

I'd like to know what is required to obtain an NPPL, or whether it is worth the extra investment to go for a PPL?
No difference in microlights, they're one and the same thing.

For syllabus / requirements - look on the NPPL website, or those of dozens of flying schools who explain it in their own ways, but generally accurately.

My reasons are two-fold. One, it would be fun :} and two, I'd be looking at using it for trips of 350 nm (within the UK).
Plenty of microlights (or aeroplanes on an NPPL(SEP)) that will do that - licence again is irrelevant.[/quote]

I understand an NPPL restricts you to day, VFR only (as would a basic PPL). Is it possible to add an instrument rating to an NPPL?
No.

Pushing the regulatory/legal limits, if the aircraft was equipped with a GPS certified for aeronautical use, as long as the aircraft was in VFR conditions, is there any restriction on using it for navigation, or is this officially not allowed (even if it just said "fly that way -> for 50 miles")?
You can do that with a walking GPS if you want, or a sextant, or any other bit of kit you care to carry onboard. GPS certification doesn't really exist.

What's the deal regarding weather? Obviously if you embark on a 5 hour flight, the weather is not going to be the same as when you left. How do people flying cross-country over unfriendly terrain (or water for that matter) deal with this? If you turned back for everything, obviously you get nowhere.
- Check all the forecasts and make your best judgement
- Accept the risk of diverting, and if things become unviable do so sooner rather than later. In a microlight, that diversion may well just be to a large field (ideally next to a pub).
- Re: water, etc.: the engine doesn't know you're over water, just be sensible and always ensure that there are "escape options" that ensure you'll survive, if not necessarily the aeroplane.


(Before I get nailed for being blazé, taking safety lightly etc.. - I can assure you, I'm not; I ask questions to get answers/opinions, no matter how rediculous they might appear :) ).

Thanks in advance.

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Everybody starts somewhere.

G

[cats_five]

<snip>
Pushing the regulatory/legal limits, if the aircraft was equipped with a GPS certified for aeronautical use, as long as the aircraft was in VFR conditions, is there any restriction on using it for navigation, or is this officially not allowed (even if it just said "fly that way -> for 50 miles")?


You also need to be able to navigate the old-fashioned way with a chart. My own experience is that being able to navigate (without using GPS!) on the hills, in the car and in a boat all translated to being able to navigate in an aircraft.



What's the deal regarding weather? Obviously if you embark on a 5 hour flight, the weather is not going to be the same as when you left. How do people flying cross-country over unfriendly terrain (or water for that matter) deal with this? If you turned back for everything, obviously you get nowhere.

You need to know about weather - where to get forecasts, how to interpret them and also how to see if what is happening around you matches the forecast. If the weather is worse than forecast a diversion or turning back might be prudent.

Conclusion - there is a lot to learn beyond just being able to fly the aircraft.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just adding something to Cats five's post - the PPL and NPPL syllabi include met, flight planning, diversions and emergencies, navigation - and a whole raft of other stuff. You will get taught (and examined on) all this, it's not up to you to work it out for yourself afterwards (although you will learn a lot after you've got your NPPL/PPL as you become more experienced - and the learning never really stops).

G

[cats_five]

Yes, suppose it was a little cruel to tell the OP he needs to be able to navigate and do met without mentioning that he will get some help!

Has the OP gone and downloaded the NPPL syllabus yet? It might be rather helpful to him. He needs to get the right version though - an NPPL (TMG) is different to an NPPL (M)!

[rans6andrew]

before getting too bogged down with licence types and aircraft types you might want to consider how you would do the same 350nm trip by car. Would you fill up and drive the whole way in one hit? I wouldn't, I would drive for about a couple of hours and then stop for a coffee, snack, pee break, leg stretch etc. Then I would go for another couple of hours etc. When I fly, I do the same. This gives me a chance to check the weather, again, every couple of hours and I get to visit a few airfields along the route and see what is happening at them.

Once you think like this, even quite modest microlights can be used for long journeys. Also, the NPPL(m) does not restrict you to just UK flying. There is a long standing arrangement with much of near Europe that allows you to go abroad with little, if any, permissions needing to applied for. Certainly France is no fuss. The same is unclear for NPPL(sep) at the current time as many places don't accept the self certify medical for GA aircraft.

Rans6

[ECAM_Actions]

Hi,

Yes, I've already looked at the syllabus.

I was aware that met etc.. would be part of the training, but theory can sometimes be different to practise. :)

Regarding landing in a field, how do the land owners react to this generally? Are they OK about it? I presume this is something you do only if needed.

I saw in the syllabus the part about stalls/spins. I can't determine if you actually do spin?

I'm a little apprehensive I must admit, but I'm guessing once I get into it, the only time I'll be landing is to refuel. :}

I've flown gliders in the past (I have about 40 hours total) so not totally new to the idea of flying. Going all the way to ultimately fly solo though is definitely something new.

I think I need to get down to the local flying club and have a look.

Thanks! :)

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[airborne_artist]

Regarding landing in a field, how do the land owners react to this generally? Are they OK about it? I presume this is something you do only if needed.You'd be pretty unwise to land in a field not normally used as a runway (other than a forced landing, of course) without a good walk over of the surface, and the permission of the land owner.

The biggest issue in the UK is the rapidly-changing weather. I'd be interested to know how many days a year you could fly a 350 nm route in one day in a microlight, even a high-performance one. My guess is about 33% of them.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi,

Yes, I've already looked at the syllabus.

I was aware that met etc.. would be part of the training, but theory can sometimes be different to practise. :)

Regarding landing in a field, how do the land owners react to this generally? Are they OK about it? I presume this is something you do only if needed.

If it's a safety diversion and you explain it as such, I've always found landowners extremely helpful. (Although most times, you never see or hear from them.)

I saw in the syllabus the part about stalls/spins. I can't determine if you actually do spin?
There's no requirement to do so, and most microlights aren't cleared for deliberate spinning - you'll do lots of stalling, and then a bit of spin awareness. Very occasionally a school may have a way of giving you spin experience if you ask for it - either in a specially cleared microlight, or in a light aircraft, but this is pretty rare.

I'm a little apprehensive I must admit, but I'm guessing once I get into it, the only time I'll be landing is to refuel. :}

Nope, you'll be practicing them over and over again! Then you'll discover the fun of flying to, and landing, at different places.

Also however, you'll find that until you've done a fair bit 1 hour in a day is reasonably tiring, and 2 hours per day about your limit. Flying, when new to it, is far from a natural act.

I've flown gliders in the past (I have about 40 hours total) so not totally new to the idea of flying. Going all the way to ultimately fly solo though is definitely something new.

40 hours without going solo? Usual in microlights is around 12-15 hours to solo these days I think.

I think I need to get down to the local flying club and have a look.
No better way really.

G

[ECAM_Actions]

40 hours without going solo? Usual in microlights is around 12-15 hours to solo these days I think.
Yes. I never "got into" gliding and so never really persued it. I flew gliders for the sake of flying really. I'm definitely a powered flight kinda guy. :ok:

Thanks for the advice.

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[XXPLOD]

One piece of advice I would offer on the licence issue is that if you feel that you may have any wish whatsoever, at any time in the future to either fly at night, add an IMC/Instrument rating, fly a twin perhaps, then do the full JAR PPL from the off.

You can then fly any SEP or microlight with the required differences training. I did an NPPL SEP shortly after the NPPL was launched. Last year did further training for the JAR PPL. Total administrative nightmare as the the two licences (although both issued by the CAA) are administered by separate organisations.

The CAA have taken over a month (so far) and say they are waiting on proof that I've passed my 7 ground school exams! One might imagine they would have made and documented that check prior to issuing me with the NPPL!

[pa28r driver]

just to add my two pennth worth
i had a long lay off from flying of 18 years.i requalified through the nppl route using the "as much as is required to come up to the standard for gst" training.
after getting my nppl i then fought with the caa to get my original ppl re-issued,it was a bit of a struggle but as i had enough hours and could prove it they relented and re-issued.
HOWEVER......several students at the airfield where i fly are currently undergoing nppl training and most of them are already into the required hours for a jar ppl.
i would suggest that you seriously consider the full jar ppl, its more flexible than nppl and you are likely to end up flying the same amount of training hours anyway, very few students get to the nppl gst standard in mimimum hours and the sylabus is almost identical

regards pete

[ECAM_Actions]

How does the cost compare between the two? It appears I can obtain an NPPL for a little over £1,000, whilst a PPL is £5,000+ ???

...or is my figure for the NPPL too low?

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[cats_five]

Yes. I never "got into" gliding and so never really persued it. I flew gliders for the sake of flying really. I'm definitely a powered flight kinda guy. :ok:


40 hours hardly seems the flying of someone who never "got into" gliding! That sounds like a over a hundred flights to me. Even I went solo in less than that! Presumably you didn't get any XC back-seat rides or they were all in turbos (that worked), otherwise you would have seen some glider field landings. Would have thought a lot of met would have rubbed off as well.

Cannot comment on your NPPL figure of £1,000, but given the sort of cost to solo it takes at my gliding club (which is by no means the most expensive in the UK) it sounds too low to me. However I have no idea what a more realistic figure would be, since I don't do any power flying whatsoever.

Also, going solo and getting your licence are two different things. Going solo is obviously a big and thrilling step on the way, but there is plenty more to do after that.

[BigHitDH]

ECAM,

I'm pretty sure you can do both - up to a point.

If your training is given by a JAR rated instructor, you can carry (I think) up to 20hrs over to a PPL.

The man you need to speak to is BEagle, he's extremely knowledgeable on the subject of all things NPPL.

[ECAM_Actions]

@cats_five: The 40 hours is flying maybe 10 hours/year. Not that many really when you break it down. Typical flight was maybe an hour. 90 minutes was the longest. I haven't flown the last couple of years (to give you an idea).

Regarding the weather - I can name the more common cloud formations, where to find lift, etc.. but I don't feel I know as much as I would like to. I always want to know more, no matter how much I already learned. It's actually a hinderence to my learning sometimes. :ugh:

@BigHitDH: Thanks.

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[Genghis the Engineer]

Costwise £1000 is much too low.

It's just one club, and I'm not necessarily recommending them (although you could do worse if you don't mind buying a share early), but there's quite a nice cost breakdown of getting an NPPL(M) here (http://www.microlightflyingschool.co.uk/courses_costs.html).

Realistically, I'd put the cost of getting a JAR PPL(SEP) at about double the cost of getting an NPPL(M), and flying costs are then potentially about double also once qualified, although once qualified you can really spend as much as you'd like and there are ultra-cheap options in most corners of aviation if you look hard enough.

But if you reckoned on £4k for an NPPL(M) and £7k for a JAR PPL(SEP) I don't think you'd be too wide of the mark. The big difference after that is that renting, whilst the most expensive way of flying, is much easier in light aircraft than microlights where you really need to buy an aircraft or share.

G

[Rod1]

airborne_artist

“I'd be interested to know how many days a year you could fly a 350 nm route in one day in a microlight, even a high-performance one. My guess is about 33% of them.”

If you took an MCR ULM (for example) with a VFR only pilot (most of the uk PPL’s are VFR only), and a PA28/140 (same pilot restriction) and set them both a 350nm task the MCR would be more likely to get there as it would be faster and provide a much more “fun” experience. It would also use less than 50% of the fuel. Most modern Micros have “proper” versions which are almost identical.

Rod1

[airborne_artist]

Rod1 - indeed, and but my point was wx-related, really, and aimed to show that as a means of transport (ie not a leisure activity), even a high-performance microlight is less than likely to complete a 350 nm trip on a specific day.

[Con Air]

Ecam

I have just started doing my NPPL and have also just bought into a fith share of a CTSW.

Price of instruction per hour on instructors a/c = £140

Price of instruction per hour on own a/c = £65 (to instructor) and £30 per hour wet. Potential saving of £45 per hour ??

If you buy a share early in your training, you can cut down on instructional costs, but the further cost of part owning your own a/c will obviously also mount up.

I was advised to carefully plan my flight training - to ensure enough funds available to consolidate your flight training, rather than spread it out. You learn quicker if you don't have to recap from where you left off last time.

I am also an ex glider pilot - just over 150 hrs P1. You'll find all past experience will help, though I must admit, after a three year layoff, I,m still quite rusty.

I still have stop myself from turning when I enter some lift. Seems strange.:uhoh:

I would imagine you must have done some spins in gliders. Don't think its part of the sulabus though for microlights, although the good book does cover this.:8