Perfidious Albion

[ORAC]

French horror as Joan of Arc to be 'killed' by English again (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/5819562/French-horror-as-Joan-of-Arc-to-be-killed-by-English-again.html)

One senior officer said that the prospect of the ship being "burned, martyred and dismembered" in England would be too much to stomach after the old enemy's earlier hand in the death at the stake in 1431 of France's national heroine, after whom the ship is named.

The ageing vessel, which is used by the French as a "floating embassy" in a similar role as the decommissioned Royal Yacht Britannia, is due to embark on its 45th and final world tour, after which it will be dismantled. Able UK, the British shipbreakers based on the River Tees, is reportedly in pole position to win the tender.

The Jeanne-d'Arc has come to symbolise the soul of the French navy, and has been used as a training vessel for all French sailors since 1964.
"Joan of Arc is the heart of the French nation," said Pierre-François Forissier, the French navy's chief-of-staff. The idea that it might end its life on English soil was, according to naval officials cited by the newspaper Le Monde, "sad, painful, even unimaginable".

Many officers privately expressed a preference for the 13,000-ton boat being scuttled rather than taken apart by English hands. However, this is against international regulations, particular as it is constructed with dangerous materials, including asbestos. Those prepared to speak on the record were more diplomatic.

"The English are Europeans after all, we have the same values," said Vice-Admiral Hubert Jouot, in charge of decommissioning French vessels. "But, every now and then, a certain national pride manifests itself, like in sporting competitions."....

Vice-admiral Jouot warned fellow navy officials to stop getting sentimental over the Jeanne-d'Arc's fate. "We must stop being emotional; we will follow the public markets procedures. The best placed in the competition will win," he said.......

[Wensleydale]

Actually, it was all a big misunderstanding over dinner - The Duke of Bedford asked Joan how she would like her steak and when she said "well done to ruined........". The rest, as they say, is history. This is why the French always accuse the English of over-cooking food.

[anita gofradump]

And who said nationalism was dead in Europe???!!

You, men of England, who have no right to this Kingdom of France, the King of Heaven orders and notifies you through me, Joan the Maiden, to leave your fortresses and go back to your own country; or I will produce a clash of arms to be eternally remembered. And this is the third and last time I have written to you; I shall not write anything further.

Now that doesn't appear to be the case here, does it, Joan love?

:ok:

[BEagle]

Perhaps they could just sail the thing to Mers-el-Kebir*, then refuse to leave harbour......?












*Otherwise know as Oran.

[Blacksheep]

Hartlepool. How poetic. The town that was so paranoid about the Ffrench that they hanged a monkey just for wearing a Ffrench naval uniform... ;)

[dakkg651]

Well us Brits do have hundreds of years of experience in taking French ships to pieces.

As Beags reminds us, Oran was but one example. In fact, didn't we give them the opportunity of joining the allies in the fight to free their own country?
They refused so we sank em. Seems fair enough to me.

As for that deluded Joan woman. If she had stuck to washing and cooking like her brethren instead of mouthing off, she wouldn't have got burned.

[cazatou]

dakkg651

"Oran was but one example"

Another was the 28 Surface Combat Vessels and 8 Submarines operated by the Free French Forces alongside British and American Navies during WW2.

As this is an Aviation Forum perhaps we should also acknowledge the 27 Free French Squadrons that operated under RAF control during WW2.

But then, I suppose, one must never let facts get in the way of ones Bigotry.

:rolleyes:

[dakkg651]

cazatou

I sincerely apologise to have ruffled your feathers.

I do acknowledge the contribution made, not only by the Free French forces, but also by the resistance organisations in aiding the British, Commonwealth and US forces to liberate your country.

You imply that I had got my facts wrong reference the sinking of French ships at Oran and other harbours. So perhaps you will now place your teddies gently back in the cot and enlighten us as to why the French fleet did not sail out of harbour that day and join their Free French countrymen in kicking the invaders out of their land.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

This link: Military History Online - Battle of Mers-el-Kebir (http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/articles/merselkebir.aspx) provides a good summary of the action.
Admiral Somerville was not enthusiastic about Operation Catapult saying that it was "the biggest political blunder of modern times and will rouse the whole world against us…we all feel thoroughly ashamed…"

Our burning of Joan of Arc at the stake is still remembered here today in France.

dakkg651
I don't think we emerge from either action with great credit but if you think that these events are worth a snigger then you need help.

Cue "it's only banter innit"..

[anita gofradump]

I doubt the French ever forgot the toasting of the mad-woman, and would cite the sale of Exocet to Argentina in 1982, with reasonable knowledge of its planned use.

Le grudge? Moi?

[Wensleydale]

Do not forget that the French scuttled what was left of their fleet in Oran in November 1942 rather than let it fall into the hands of the invading Anglo/American Forces during Operation Torch. You can praise the the "Free French" forces as much as you like, but the French Navy decision to take the Vichy line at such a time was downright cussedness and arrogance!

How different to the French Naval Forces in the Eastern Med who chose to demilitarise their ships at the time of Oran and therefore save them for the future......

[dakkg651]

sidevalve

To borrow a word from your adopted country.

Touche

[Jackonicko]

“As this is an Aviation Forum perhaps we should also acknowledge the 27 Free French Squadrons that operated under RAF control during WW2.”

Of course we should – France has much to be proud of.

And of course we should acknowledge the contribution of the Free French – who did not only serve in their ‘own’ units, but who were also scattered widely throughout the RAF.

But 27 Squadrons?

I can only think of 12 (No.s 326, 327, 328, 329, 340, 341, 342, 343, 344, 345, 346, 347).

And while saluting the many Frenchmen who ‘did the right thing’, why should we not also poke fun at those who did not? Since France also has much to be ashamed of, too.....

And for all the Free French airmen we should salute and honour, there were large numbers who placed their alleigance with the Vichy regime, who did the German’s work for them, even trying to shoot down RAF and other allied aircraft (and occasionally succeeding). Who were happy to fight against the forces of freedom, and to kill our people. Just as while we are saluting the heroism of the resistance, there’s nothing wrong with remembering the collaborators with contempt.

[brickhistory]

who did the German’s work for them, even trying to shoot down RAF and other allied aircraft (and occasionally succeeding). Who were happy to fight against the forces of freedom, and to kill our people.


Please, let's be fair. The Vichy government also helped out the Japanese in a large way as well.

[ian16th]

....and remember today, 14th July, is Bastile Day!

[GreenKnight121]

Do not forget that the French scuttled what was left of their fleet in Oran in November 1942 rather than let it fall into the hands of the invading Anglo/American Forces during Operation Torch. You can praise the the "Free French" forces as much as you like, but the French Navy decision to take the Vichy line at such a time was downright cussedness and arrogance!

How different to the French Naval Forces in the Eastern Med who chose to demilitarise their ships at the time of Oran and therefore save them for the future......

Really? The references I have show that the French evacuated the survivors of Oran to either Casablanca/Dakar (west coast of Africa) or Toulon (southern French coast).

A small contingent was left in the north African port of Bizerte... which was captured by German forces in November 1942... and it was the Germans who scuttled the French ships there.

The ships at Dakar & Casablanca fought to defend those ports when the Allies invaded in November 1942, but those that survived the fighting were not scuttled, but joined the FFN when their commanders surrendered the ports.

The only ships the French scuttled were the 60-some that were scuttled in Toulon on Nov 27, 1942... as German forces entered the port to seize them. In fact some were still settling in the water as the Nazi boarding parties stepped on deck!

[walter kennedy]

Jackonico
Some actions and attitudes of the French in the late '30s and through WW2 that many Brits seem to have trouble understanding were the result of a population with more widespread free thinking and courage of convictions.
By way of example, in a Bulawayo church c@ 1976 a minister was damning the terrorists to hell (sort of spiel); a respectable black member of the congregation stood up and politely but sternly spoke up: he had one son in the regular army and one son with the boys in the bush (a Terr) – he said he was equally proud of each of them as they were both following their convictions.
While many Frenchmen fought bravely on the allied side, many sat on the fence because they were confused rather than cowardly – they did not know which side was in the right; further the other way, I think France sent no less than 3 SS Divisions to fight the Bolshevics on the Eastern Front – these were no doubt the bravest of men, risking alienation at home and the worst kind of war conditions – it was their conviction that Bolshevism was a threat to nation states/ nationalism throughout Europe (as it indeed was – a view shared amongst many British prominent people, the head of MI6(5?whatever) Sir Vernon Kells, King Edward VIII, his brother the Duke of Kent, etc etc) and, after all, Germany had broken free of the great depression, having returned to prosperity (nothing to do with rearmament) by 1937, perhaps making a lot of Frenchmen think their country could recover also. If you think the last point petty, serious malnutrition diseases like ricketts (affected the bones hence “knobbly knees”) were common in what should have been the white middle class in America until 1941.
Many so called “collaborators” were against the communists within France, who were very virulent taking advantage of the chaos of war, and some of the most ruthless of the “resistance” were communists terrorists liquidating or otherwise intimidating political opposition – a very difficult time for the ordinary Frenchman.
So, it was not such a simple choice for them at the time (a lot of the justification for the war with Germany was only presented to the public afterwards).
Back to Joan of Arc – I don't understand why they make her case so prominent – was it not they who handed her over as part of a peace deal? Heroes can be viewed as inconvenient in peace deals.:E

[ORAC]

Look, this was meant as a humorous thread, nothing more.

The actions of the French fleet at Toulon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuttling_of_the_French_fleet_in_Toulon) to prevent it's falling into the hands of the Germans was both brave and creditable, as was the actions of the submarine fleet in escaping.

The actions of the British at Oran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Mers-el-Kébir) could be considered as a surprise attack, equivalent to that of the Japanese at Pearl Harbour - for the same reasons of pique, confusion and timing.

But the fact remains, we have a tradition of thrashing the French at sea, and giving the Joan of Arc into British hands is a matter of angst for the French and Schadenfreude for the us.

I think that fits all 3 main rivals in.... ;)

[anita gofradump]

Three blokes, an Englishman, a Frenchman and a Welshman are out walking along the beach together one day. They come across a lantern and a genie pops out of it. "I will give you each one wish" says the genie.

The Welshman says, "I am a farmer, my dad was a farmer, and my son will also farm. I want the land to be forever fertile in Wales."

With a blink of the genie's eye, 'FOOM' - the land in Wales was forever made fertile for farming.

The Frenchman was amazed, so he said, "I want a wall around France, so that no one can come into our precious country. Again, with a blink of the Genie's eye,'POOF' - there was a huge wall around France.

The Englishman asks, "I'm very curious. Please tell me more about this wall.

The Genie explains, "Well, it's about 150 feet high, 50 feet thick and nothing can get in or out."

The Englishman says, "Fill it up with water."

[cazatou]

Jackonocko

Your post #13

John Terraine's "The Right of the Line" Ch 37:

"By June 1944 there were 31 Allied Squadrons in the Home Commands: 12 Polish, 7 French,4 Czechosovakian,4 Norwegian,2 Belgian and 2 Dutch; a further 20 French, 3 Greek, 1 Dutch, 1 Polish and 1 Yugoslav Squadrons were serving in overseas Commands."

Of course, there were also Aircrew from those Countries serving in RAF Squadrons other than those specifically manned by Allied Aircrew.

[Blacksheep]

The Englishman says, "Fill it up with water."
Ah, tony draper I presume?

[Jackonicko]

Cazatou,

Re your post and 20 French manned squadrons overseas.

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe it.

I can find only 12, home and overseas.