aerobatic

[DoNotTurnBack]

Hey all

I am just about to get my gfpt and will soon begin my navs and later a cpl, but i have just been thinking weather it would be wise to do an aero endorsment before i begin with my navs???

so any thoughts and advise from anyone about the benefits of doing an aero and it if helps in later on getting a job as an ag pilot.


Cheers
DNTB

[Mere Mortal]

DO IT! It's the best fun you will have with your pants on.

Your handling skills will improve, making crosswind landings a piece of p***. You will have a much better understanding and appreciation of slow speed flight with high wing loads, similar to those found in Ag.

As far as jobs go, there are adventure flight companies using Yaks and Nanchangs and charter companies flying Tigermoths and Pitts Specials etc. So you can end up do aeros as a first job.

Since you are in Sydney, try Red Baron, Curtis or take the trip to Maitland and see Phil Unicomb at Air Action.

All the best,
MM

[RadioSaigon]

concur; do it.

Don't just do aero's for fun though -do a proper EMT course as offfered by Red Baron, Action Aerobatics (Phil Unicomb) and others. I did one a couple of years ago with Phil and no word of a lie, it's the best money I've spent in 30 years of aviation. I'm seriously considering doing a 'refresher' later this year. These courses should be a compulsory part of the CPL syllabus at a minimum IMO.

[Icarus53]

These courses should be a compulsory part of the CPL syllabus at a minimum IMO.

Not just your opinion - mine too RS!!!

At the GFPT stage you might want to get started on your navs and tracking towards PPL before you start aeros, but it's always an option, and I heartily concur that it should be part of the CPL syllabus. I recall being briefed on how to recover from a spin early in my PPL training - it wasn't until much later that I found out how poor my chances of survival would have been without some exposure!

I did the Red Baron basic aircraft control course straight after my CPL and wish I had done it a whole lot sooner. I'm definitely glad that I did it before my CIR and credit my success in that training to the excellent standard in aircraft handling and control I gained from just a few weeks of aeros and emergency drills. The improvement in my stall recovery technique from the course still pays dividends - during simulator checks I recover at a fraction of the allowable height loss, all from that course.

Regardless of where you see yourself going in aviation, put a decent aircraft control/aerobatics course on your list of priority training. Aside from all the fun you'll have, you will learn an incredible amount about what you can do with an aircraft and perhaps how to get out of a mess one day.:ok:

[the wizard of auz]

I concur as well. I did mine at the same stage your at and found it an immense help with aircraft handling. I also built a few hours toward my PPL by taking my mates for a joyflight in the training area. you may get bored flying about on a GFPT as it is pretty restrictive....... even more so if your training area doesn't have a lot to look at. the aero's also helped while doing emergency procedures and forced landings while doing my navs, as you really learn what the aircraft is capable of.
I would highly recommend it. :ok:

[A Comfy Chair]

I agree with everything the others say... great for your handling skills, a great appreciation of what the aircraft can do, as well as your own skill limits. Its also a hell of a lot of fun.

A few hours of aeros/unusual attitude training should be compulsory for the CPL.

It is also an opportunity to get a tailwheel endorsement done at the same time, depending what aircraft the school uses.

[Fliegenmong]

Spelling exam wouldn't hurt either......:E

[Mark1234]

Another vote for aeros, though I'd perhaps consider leaving it later than GFPT, and probably advise against picking up tailwheel at this stage. That would depend on the student, but I'd be inclined to suggest you'll get more from it with a bit more stick time.

I am rather interested however in what's so special about the EMT stuff at RB (not being cynical, genuinely curious). What might I get from it over and above general aeros?

[Like This - Do That]

Yep ... I'll sing from the same hymn sheet. I had all the 'inside' manoeuvres signed off before the first navex.

Had so much fun I put my PPL progress back by about 6 months!

[The Green Goblin]

i have just been thinking weather it would be wise

job as an ag pilot.

Something tells me you'll fit right in :}

[the wizard of auz]

Bwahahaha...... I thunk the same thing aye.:}

[DoNotTurnBack]

Guys thanx for the feedback, just what i thought to myself but needed to confirm.

Ill be investing some time to do a basic aero course and later after my ppl get into perhaps more adv stuff-to be quite honest i am really abit of an adr junki and cant wait to get into the pitts my school has. lol

just one other thing though mark why would u not recommend tailwheel??
actually iv only flown tailwheel right from the start, and will be forced into a tri to do my navs, i dont know why but i think im more comfortable flying them

i always though tailwheel where a harder breed to overcome and so decided to do my initails in it.

anyways as i said all the feedback i got was g8 thanx guys :ok:

cheers
DNTB

[ZappBrannigan]

This is something I've had in the back of my mind for a while, and this thread has sparked me to go and get it done. Every single person I've spoken to says the same things mirrored in this thread.

My question - has anybody got any recommendations on a reputable/standout place to get an aero endorsement in Melbourne or surrounds?

[Mark1234]

Don't Turn Back - my apologies; I simply assumed you were flying trike :} I heartily recommend tailwheel, there's nothing magic about them! I just know a lot of people 'sell' aeros and tailwheel together. Tailwheel (conversions) require a lot of circuits, aeros upper air work. The two don't fit together really (IMHO). That and the 'average' student varies a lot - but it sounds like you'll have a ball.

[djpil]

Hey Mark1234, a few extra thoughts:
a lot of people 'sell' aeros and tailwheel together.A lot of schools only have tailwheel aerobatic aeroplanes, a lot just have nosewheel aerobatic aeroplanes, some have a choice. You can't sell what you don't have. The customer should think about his/her longer term objectives to help them decide what to do and where to do it. Most serious aerobatic aeroplanes (and a lot of other interesting aeroplanes) have tailwheels but if you're only interested in sunday arvo common garden loops or some extreme unusual attitude work then one of the nose-wheel machines would suffice.
Tailwheel (conversions) require a lot of circuits, aeros upper air work. The two don't fit together really (IMHO).Its quite efficient to do a tailwheel endorsement along with the aerobatic endorsement - just the mandatory take-off and landing with each aerobatic flight is worth more than an hour of circuits by the time you've done your spin and aerobatic endorsements.
That and the 'average' student varies a lot - but it sounds like you'll have a ball.How true!

[Unusual-Attitude]

Or you could go to the states and do 'acrobatic's instead...:E

[knox]

"Or you could go to the states and do 'acrobatic's instead...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif"


Mmm, yes, that reminds me of all those mis-spent years in the circus.

ahhh the good ol' days.

[no one]

ZappBranigan

If he is still around would recommend Chris Burns at Tooradin.

[Mark1234]

djpil:

Good points all.. I've been having a lot more fun with my aeros since I got my mitts on a decathlon - I hadn't really considered the aircraft point of view.

Based on my personal experience, I'd still favour separating the two; In my earlier aeros days I'd be pretty beat at the end of each session. I'm not convinced I'd have had much capacity for taking in the finer points of tailwheel technique.

[fatboywings]

when you start thinking about your low level waver just come back and watch this BBC NEWS | Special Reports | German plane drops out of sky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8150639.stm)
no fatalities in this video either. Maybe the EMT that phil unicomb does could have helped.

[M14_P]

It is ashame that Aerobatic training isn't compulsory in some form. Anyway, I'd recommend you get rated in a taildragger of some description, then get some time in the back seat, it will make the transition to the Pitts a bit less frightening. We get used to having no vis with these sorts of machines because everything one flies at a point becomes the same.

The Pitts is the greatest aeroplane ever and as Budd Davison said, "There are aircraft, then there are Pitts Specials."
Slackie will agree!

I'd have said get your basic akro out of the way in something basic like a Citabria or whatever you have available, it will help you lay a stronger foundation.
If your in NZ at some point pm me we have an S2A available for dual training/adv trial flights or just that dual one off experience your after. Take it from me, once won't be enough... :)

[Runaway Gun]

Anyone who suggests aerobatics aren't required or advantageous, probably hasn't trained in it. It's one of those skills that you don't fully understand the benefits of, until you've really come to grips with. Even for normal flight, whether it's steep turns, PFLs, Real Forced Landings, Glide Approaches, Flapless Approaches, or even recovering from an Unusual Attitude whilst on that Navex - it is worth it's weight in gold. That extra experience provides a great foundation, and I too wish it were compulsory. If my kids learn to fly, they'll be doing aeros asap. Lastly, enjoy it - it is fun too.

[slackie]

Slackie will agree
Yip!:ok:

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs112.snc1/4823_117133731562_707881562_2888218_2539632_n.jpg

[Cloud Basher]

Runaway Gun,
I agree 100%. When I was in the States I went flying with a mate who owns his own Sierra. he hadn't done any aeros and I asked him the last time he did some stalls. He hadn't done any for a long time. He had a couple of thousand hours!

Anyway I said lets go do some in your aircraft. Up we went and he was literally sweating as we approached the first. Instead I got him to do some slow flight and wallow around a bit. Then a got into a stall and showed him we could fly the aircraft inside the stall, albeit with a nice rate of descent. But when he did it, habit had him picking up the wing with aileron which resulted in a wing drop. So I got just him to move the yoke forward of the Stall stick position everytime he got a wing drop and it immediately broke the stall and stopped the wing drop.

It was an interesting exercise and reminded me of how much I did not know about flight on the edge of the envelope before I had done aeros. Everyone should at least get EMT training. 5 odd hours gives you a basic aeros endo anyway. Surely we can all save up and afford five hours:sad: It will be the best money a pilot can spend on flight training.

M14_P, Yep love the Pitts, best fun with your pants on (and if you are married it also beats pants off fun! bwahahahahah).

DNTB,
Do your initial aeros training now. Doing it early will give you so much more understanding and real confidence in your ability to handle and aircraft that the rest of your flying will improve no end. You do not need to have a PPL or CPL to get the most benefit out of it. IMNSHO, the earlier the better. (Plus if you get it earlier then get lost on a Nav, turning yourself upside down to find that checkpoint underneath you is fun! :p:p:p)

Cheers
CB

[Trojan1981]

DONOTURNBACK
For proper, safe aeros instruction I would recomend

Action Aerobatics (http://www.aerobatics.com.au/index.php)

[flog]

Drop djpil a message - YLIL on a Sunday.