Daallo and IL-18s

[davidjohnson6]

I'm in the middle of planning a trip to East Africa and trying to put together a flight itinerary. One of the legs is on an Il-18 from Hargeisa (there are meant to be some fantastic neolithic cave paintings nearby) to Djibouti on Daallo Airlines. I know they operate to Gatwick, but a 757 is rather newer than an Il-18.

Yes, age of aircraft in itself need not be a concern, and like IL-18s, B-52s are also getting on a bit. While the USAF plans on flying B-52s for many more years to come I suspect the USAF have a rather larger maitenance budget and greater safety ethos than carriers flying in the dodgier parts of Africa.

Can anyone comment on:
1) Does commercial aviation in Hargeisa basically work reasonably OK ? I'm not expecting any kind of ILS
2) Maintenance of IL-18s by Daallo
3) Whether Daallo are a reasonably efficient operator in their local region

[Hartington]

I know nothing about your specific queries but I have found myself in your situation in other places. While I can be picky about both airlines and airports when I have a choice in this sort of circumstance I take the view that the flight is likely to be (a) safer and (b) quicker than any equivalent so I take a deep breath and then forget about it.

However, I will admit to an element of "can I come too please" here because I've never flown on an IL18 (but I have been on an IL14!).

[renfrew]

You are seriously thinking of visiting Somalia?
Have you read what the FCO site has to say about that country?

[Rainboe]

You enquire about a trip to East Africa then go on about B52s! What is the question? To answer specific points at the end, have you heard of many IL18s lost in East Africa? Whilst not saying they are as safe as western airlines, they do appear to have a fairly safe operation going. Your journey by car to the airport is still more dangerous.
Interestingly, on a Moon program last night, Yuri Gagarin was shown arriving back in Moscow in an IL18, which would have been 1961. They've been going 50 years! So have I (and a bit). We can both reach full power for short bursts, leave an exhaust trail, and land back without breaking anything.

[ArthurBorges]

For starters, have a look at the Wikipedia article about it. I find this Wiki article balanced, albeit a touch too short. It's at Ilyushin Il-18 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-18).

When you look at Soviet-era aircraft, military or civilian, they are designed to be as low-tech as possible for (1) reliability and (2) ease of maintenance.

Nowadays, we would call it ergonomic, sustainable development-friendly or somesuch wordmix of the ilk. This means your concern is with the airline's adherence to accepted standards of maintenance and training, rather than the aircraft itself.

However, given its date of maiden flight is 4 July 1957 and that I have suffered about 1hr30min of a Tupolev 154, it may be rumbly and noisy so that you will arrive both shaken and stirred.

That said, like most SLF, you are terribly-terribly likely to survive. And may even disembark so proud of yourself that you will be able to spin a few dinner party anecdotes from the experience.

You can also check: Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Aircraft type index > Ilyushin 18 (http://aviation-safety.net/database/type/type.php?type=312) although it is not that user-firendly if you are trying to compare an aircraft type's safety with respect to other types. This is both dodgy and fair: lots depends on maintenance and crew training/skills.

At all events, unless my data is out of date, general wisdom has it that only rail travel is safer -- in some places at least.

[WHBM]

The fact that an aircraft built in the 1960s is still in daily service tells something, surely !

There are many here who would just love to have a ride on an Il-18, and would have no concerns at all. Do take photos and post them here. As for the comment above about the Tu154, last year I made a trip, from Gatwick, to St Petersburg, Russia, one way on a 737, the return on a Tu154. Give me the 154 any time, felt a really nice, solid, comfortable, stable aircraft.

[davidjohnson6]

Have you read what the FCO site has to say

Yes, I have read what the FCO has to say, but I have also tried to consider the position in which the FCO finds itself.

What was British Somaliland merged with the rest of Somalia shortly after independence from the UK. When in the 1990s, Somalia self-destructed, 2 areas set up de facto states of their own - Somaliland and Puntland. Granted, the rump of Somalia (including Mogadishu) is highly dangerous, and only the crazy or the heavily armed would choose to go there.

Somaliland and (to a lesser extent) Puntland on the other hand seem to have a functioning Government, with the rule of law generally applying. Cars stop at functioning traffic lights, etc...

As the European colonial era in Africa came to an end, a decision was taken that borders would remain as defined by European powers, to avoid the risk of unleashing multiple civil wars from local groups demanding their own independent states.

Concurrent with various existing protocols relating to Africa, Somaliland is not formally recognised by any other country in the world. Thus, the FCO are rather constrained in treating Somaliland as distinct from Somalia - for the time being they can't recognise the Somaliland Govt without breaking these protocols, without opening a far larger can of worms elsewhere.

Yes, if you visit Somaliland and things go wrong, you're on your own and your embassy are likely to find it very difficult to help you out. However, I'd rather rely on the local rule of law being respected in the 1st place, than needing to call the embassy.

[Wycombe]

WHBM said:

There are many here who would just love to have a ride on an Il-18

Being a person who is "lucky" enough to have done so, it felt like an aircraft built from the "solid". The trip I did was at low-level, and all I can remember is a smooth/quiet ride all the way :ok:

It was in an ex-Interflug machine by the way, so had probably been well looked after.

[ArthurBorges]

You may find the first posting at this URL useful for local orientation on the ground:

How Does Somalia’s Private Sector Cope (http://anti-state.com/forum/index.php?board=23;action=display;threadid=13489)

More philosophically, I'd sooner fly a local airline than an international one within, or between, developing countries because local pilots are likelier to have more experience in any local pitfalls and quirks to avoid.

There was a medium-haul airliner that slammed into a mountain in Corsica decades ago (a Caravelle, I think). It was on charter with a Yugoslav crew with good experience of international flying, where an air traffic controller's instructions are the word of God and you simply execute his instructions without further ado. Which is what the crew did. Well, the accident boiled down to a simple misunderstanding: the captain simply complied whereas Air Inter pilots at the time that when a Corsican air traffic controller says "Descend to 3,000 feet", it meant "Look out the window first and descend to 3,000 if you can." Again, this story is oooooooold and told to me in 1980 or so.

On the Tupolev flight, it was LOT in 1976 out of CDG -- I distinctly remember vibration. Would it have been a Tu-134 then?

[WHBM]

There was a medium-haul airliner that slammed into a mountain in Corsica decades ago (a Caravelle, I think). It was on charter with a Yugoslav crew
Inex-Adria MD80 YU-ANA, on approach to Ajaccio, December 1981.

On the Tupolev flight, it was LOT in 1976 out of CDG -- I distinctly remember vibration. Would it have been a Tu-134 then?
Most likely. First LOT Tu154 came 10 years later. But any aircraft can have vibration. The most substantial I ever experienced was on a BA 747.

[Flightrider]

The IL18 is still operating on this route not because of economics but because of performance. There is no other large turboprop which can cope with the gravel runway surfaces at the field near Mogadishu which Daallo have had to use for a long time as a result of the troubles in Somalia rendering the main airport at MGQ impractical/unusable. The IL18 has therefore been operating JIB-Hargeisa-Mogadishu and onwards to Nairobi some days for quite some time.

The IL18 exterior is much better than the interior! You would be lucky to find seat-belts in working order and the prospect of a coherent safety briefing from the local cabin crew is remote. My advice would be that it's unlikely to kill you but certainly won't be the safest form of air transport that you've ever experienced.

[K.Whyjelly]

Well, the IL18 is certainly a tough and solid bit of Soviet kit. I hope your experience is like this first video...................

YouTube - Grixona Ilyushin Il-18 flights in Moldova. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPVjUDo8-7U)



..........and most definately NOT like this one!!!!!

YouTube - Ilyushin IL-18 Aborted take off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogb69OBceRI)

[WHBM]

There's a couple of actual Daallo IL18 flights in Somalia on YouTube here :

YouTube - Ilyushin Il-18 takeoff in Somaliland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiD_JYy72Nk&feature=related)

YouTube - Dallo IL18 Djibouti to Hargeysa in midflight Dec 07 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv5gvKaAoYk&feature=related)

[The SSK]

Sit at the back if you want to minimise noise nuisance.
And post your impressions when you get back.

(My IL-18 experience, LHR-WAW-LHR in 1970)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Nothing much to worry about in Somaliland - they are doing a prety good job of running the place from what I hear. HMG advice is always considerably over-stated. Hargeisa "airport" is just a long tarmac runway, not in wonderful condition when last I was there (1993) and won't have been improved, with an equally long gravel extension so the MiGs and Sukhois had room to overrun during the civil war. The apron is small, there are no facilities to speak of and certainly no approach aids. There might be someone on the ground with a hand-held VHF but I wouldn't count on it. The runway is open to the bush and is used by animals and people as a highway (including huge tortoises!). The airport and its surrounds are undoubtably stiff with mines, as is much of the countryside in Somaliland. Be real careful if you venture off well used tracks. Anyone operating in/out of Mog is going to be carrying some highly undesireable people on every flight. Daalo were flying Let 410s and the Il18 in the early '90s - the Il18 seemed to be mainly for freight - ie cigarette smugglng (in what was then almost a famine zone trying to recover from a vicious civil war) so are survivors at the very least. I'd not worry about them at all.

[davidjohnson6]

Mods - my apologies if this sounds like a trip report - and please feel free to edit it down if you think appropriate, but I was like a kid in a sweetshop at Hargeisa last week.

As people have mentioned, Hargeisa (or Egal Intl) airport is not plush. Mainly served by the likes of Daallo (on EU banned list, but far far far safer than a long trip overland in the region) and Juba (spelling ?) Airways.

Saw quite a few Ilyushin 18s moving around, a stationary Antonov 24 and something else which was similiar to an An-24. I also saw a small RJ belonging to the World Food Programme depart. There's meant to also be a better local airline - called something like 'Teddy' which flies Cessnas for a slightly higher cost

HGA airport have an interesting approach to security. Vehicles can't approach within 200 meteres of the terminal (the neighbours in Puntland and in the south are still a little too excitable). Hand check of all luggage at terminal entrance. Then *EVERYONE* can go straight to the airside cafe on the apron edge to drink a Coke or chew some qat. There is a (climbable) fence with a padlock to keep pax from wandering up to the aircraft. Maybe 2 hours before a departure, a security guard rounds everyone up to return to landside to get a boarding card. Immigration officials will show up at some point. There's a metal detector arch but it doesn't get turned on.

Daallo have a reputation for being liberal with the time. Flight might go today, or it might not. Don't be too surprised if the aircraft has to make a trip down to Mogadishu and back before taking you where you're booked.

Having seen the space that pax get inside an IL-18 (built 1965, formerly owned by LOT) I can understand why everyone wists for the olden days of flying. I'm told that sometimes there are livestock on board but I didn't see any. As Flightrider suggested, safety briefing not considered necessary by crew. Kyrgyz crew spoke Russian and basic English. They have probably been flying IL-18s for maybe 20 years and seemed highly competent at this job. Local passengers amused to hear that there's been an IL-18 on a plinth at Sheremetyevo for a number of years.

Alas no photos, but heart warming to see big rumbling old (and slightly battered) 4-engined robustly built Soviet props constructed in the mid 1960s still in daily commercial use to move pax around in a remote part of the world.