Some crews are just incredible

[ph-ndr]

I've been a lurker in here for a good few years and have kept my posting to an absolute minimum, since I do not work witin avaiation (but in systems engineering, hence discussions on here on how to handle issues often have relevant information for me).

Today I figured I'd start my first thread in here (as far as I can rememer).

I was in a lounge last night waiting for an overnight from one continent to another, and even though the lounge wasn't all htat nice it was better than the mayhem in the terminal.

At one point during the night a flight crew comes into the lounge, which is unusual enough as it is. Two expats with four stripes, one expat with three stripes. Stripes on the shoulders, pilot bags in tow, and ID hanging out, and none of the effects leaving any doubt as to who they worked for. Their employer has a much better lounge down the hall.

This in it's own is a piece of non-news. What happened half an hour later made me look twice. In front of me Ihave two four-stripers mixing gin/tonic and vodka/tonic.

As they exited the lounge half an hour later I questioned one of the quietly if they were in fact dead heading and got told that was none of my business.

Now I don't care if they are dead heading or if they are on duty, but this spectacle sure s not helping improving the image of pilots already claiming there is no need to alco tests?

Lounge staff did later identify what flight the crew belonged to.

Anyone care to comment on this being pure stupidity on their or my part?

-A

[cockney steve]

As a Pax, I'd immediately assume that they were now "off duty",having just finished........the fact that Iwas rudely snubbed when wishing to confirm this, would make me extremely annoyed.

I would have no hesitation in pointing out that in Company Uniform, they had standards to maintain and their present behaviour was bringing the Company's reputation into disrepute.

Anyone bright enough to hold a Commercial pilot's license should be able to assess the risk to their carreer and investment, PDQ.

IMHO an unthinking response that needed a swift reality-check.

[Load Toad]

If they aren't on duty I wouldn't see a problem. It's none of my business what adults that aren't on duty do in their free time.
It's none of yours either.
If you thought they were on duty, and drinking then why didn't you report it?

Edited to add - if it is against policy to drink in uniform then - that's another thing all together.

[tubby linton]

Is this a rumour or news????

[hetfield]

What did the three-striper have?

[Coppelia]

As far as I know, crews are not allowed to drink alcohol when dressed in full uniform, furthermore in front of pax, who are not supposed to guess whether they (crews) are starting or finishing a duty.

[Mercenary Pilot]

For obvious reasons, the vast majority of airlines have stipulations that crew are not to drink alcohol in uniform under any circumstances and to try to avoid being in a place where alcohol is being served. Drinking in uniform is generally treated by termination of employment.

As for pilots, we have earned a very professional and trusted image with the general public hence why when there is an alcohol related incident it makes headline news. Contrary to what idiotic Daily Mail readers think, there are no serious industry initiatives to start random breath tests to my knowledge nor should there be.

[Airbus Girl]

I don't know which airline this crew worked for but I would say that even if not illegal, it is pretty naive to be drinking in public, in uniform, and likely to be against their company's regulations.

However, we don't know the full story or the airline involved. Perhaps these guys had just been told their employer had gone bust/ made them redundant/ not going to pay them last month's wages/ whatever. Perhaps they had just had some other terrible news. Perhaps they had just saved the day by landing their aircraft on fire with one engine. We don't know.

If you were concerned, you should have made a call to the airline or contacted the police, who could have confirmed whether or not this crew were due to operate or coming off duty.

I mean, if you saw them drinking and then did not report it and something happened, you'd feel pretty bad wouldn't you?

Most pilots I know, if coming off duty, or drinking in public, would remove jacket, tie and stripes, so they are not now "in uniform". To not do so seems a bit strange.

[vonbag]

Hello all,

Have to agree that drinking strong alcoholics in a pilot's uniform AND at the Airport is plain undecent.

P.S.: just read from Coppelia that is also not allowed.

[autobrake3]

Next time I see an off duty doctor, nurse, truck driver, lawyer, bank executive, mariner, or any employable person having drink when not working I'll be sure to ask what they think they're doing. Can't imagine what replies I'd get. Time this sanctimonious hysteria with regard to pilots having a drink is put to bed. If you want irrelevant, unfounded gossip go and buy one of the many magazines sold for that purpose.

[GANNET FAN]

Autobrake3, that really is an idiotic reply.
And there is nothing sanctimonius in the original post.

[Bealzebub]

The purpose of the uniform is to make you recognisable to the general public and the world at large, the role you perform, and often the company you perform that role for. In circumstances where you are not in the public eye it is usually irrelevant. A policeman or a Nurse wouldn't normally wear their uniform off duty, however in circumstances where they might, it is normal that members of the public would identify and might seek to utilize them in that role. A truck driver, lawyer or bank manager wouldn't normally have a role or company identifying uniform so the situation wouldn't arise.

Airline crew are frequently required to position and travel in public. In such circumstances they are often actually on duty, and are usually being paid as such for being on duty. This is however distinct from being involved in a flying duty, for which different rules apply. Although there are often no statutory rules as such, airline companies will lay down in their operations manuals, the rules pertinent to crews whilst wearing company uniform. Normally crew may not drink alcohol whilst wearing identifiable company uniform in any place that is open to members of the public.

In these days when everybody has a camera in their mobile phone, it is both risky and naive to be seen doing something like this. The removal of the jacket, tie and epaulettes, with the possible addition of a pullover or similar garment will usually satisy the requirement of not being seen in company uniform. In such circumstances the rules and requirements will usually revert back to those that apply for the general populace. In many cases Airline lounge managers/ hosts will be reluctant to admit aircrew in uniform for these same reasons.

It doesn't matter what had happened to the crew previously, they shouldn't have been, or given the perception that they were drinking alcohol in recognisable uniform. It would lay them open to possible disciplinary action from their own company, it could cause further restrictions to be placed on crew by the host airline they were travelling with, and it falls well short of the levels of discretion, behaviour and maturity expected of someone excercising this role in public.

If asked, it is not unreasonable that crew do not discuss their duty or itinerary with anybody who has no absolute reason for knowing, however most people would be able to manage that with some degree of good manner and civility. Perhaps a crew who displayed such poor discretion and common sense generally might be expected to be further lacking in this regard!

[Xeque]

Have to agree with just about everyone here. Flight crew in uniform should not, in any way, be associated with alcohol. Argue 'dead-heading'? OK but who, as an ordinary pax waiting to board a flight, would know that? They see 'pilots boozing!'
'Nuff said.

[Duracellslade]

ph-ndrAs someone who is in the transport industry & wears uniform at all times while working, if I enter a place where alcohol is sold or seved while wearing it,even off duty on the way home and I'm reported to my employers I would be dismissed, no if's, no but's. that's in my contract. I would like to think that all aircrew would be treated the same as I am.I don't drive as part of my job, but I can still be tested for drugs & drink ramdomly or as post incident, so I take no chances & would report & have reported some that have.duracellslade

[Glen999]

So autobreak3, am I to understand if you were about to undergo surgery and you saw a bunch of docs getting lagered up in their place of work still wearing their scrubs your heart wouldn't skip a beat????? I suspect you are either very brave, or not too bright. I'll give you the benefit of doubt on this occasion although many i fear, will not!

[max_cont]

Anyone here know what the relevant company regulations are on this matter for the crew concerned?

Assuming that there must be a rule and that therefore the crews were breaking them, is a wonderful demonstration of jumping to conclusions. :ugh:

FWIW my last employer had no such rules about drinking alcohol in uniform, as long as the chief pilot was included in the round.;)

[bucket_and_spade]

Bealzebub,

Completely agree and I suspect the vast majority of pilots would too. IMHO it's a fairly large error of judgement to be in a public place, drinking, in full uniform.

B&S

[bucket_and_spade]

max_cont,

I'd suggest that whether there's a rule or not is largely irrelevant, it's still an unwise move. A personal opinion, yes, but one I'd say a lot of pilots would agree with, in my experience.

I enjoy a drink as much as the next guy...and can often be found in the gutter post-socialising down-route. All in civvies though. And with plenty of recovery time in hand.

B&S

[Nicholas49]

Are you not able to disclose the location and airline involved?

I think you should have either contacted the police or at the very least informed their company about the situation. There may well have been an innocent explanation, but who is to say they were not about to operate a flight? And can you imagine if the press had got hold of a photo? As has been said above, by drinking in a public lounge they were almost certainly in breach of company regulations.

You can't just walk away from a situation like that and then tell everyone about it on PPrune!

[ph-ndr]

I posted this to get the views of people, and it came out about as expected, some I see as very sensible postings and some are just the stereo types I expected to come out the wood work.

Also, I want to correct one thing I got wrong as I sat at an airport this morning typing up the original and clearly was too tired. The airline they travelled on had a lounge down the hall.

After getting the info from the receptionist in the lounge I headed to the gate in question and I could see the people seated at row 0 from there and was happy to see that it was not the men from the lounge and thus most likely a case of dead heading (also their various pieces to ID the employer did not match the company operating the flight).

The reason for posting this, and the reason I actually took notice, it is the first time I've seen flight crew in a lounge and I did get startled to see them go for strong drink in company garb.

Maybe I am being unreasonable, but in my mind, showing up dressed for flight, in an airport and going for the drink is not exactly "smart", even if "legal".

Also, I know the press surely would have loved a picture, but I'm not doing this to get the press to jump on it. I have filed off an email to the airline in question and if it had been a case of the same guys being spotted on row 0 at that gate would have spoken to someone locally at the time.

-A

[max_cont]

Bucket, my next door neighbour has the ugliest wife in the world.
I think he was extremely unwise to marry her…all my other neighbours agree. But so what, it’s his choice and since I don’t know for certain that he has broken any law or company rule, it’s his business.

If a pax was concerned, he should approach the relevant company and maybe they might have told him that as responsible, professional adults (and having finished a duty) the company feels that their crews were entitled to have a small drink the same as any other human being. OTOH he might have been told that it was indeed against company policy and that disciplinary procedures would be instigated against the crew concerned…but what we got was a post on PPrune and the usual shooting from the hip from people who don’t know the facts and aren’t interested…just as long as they can spout anonymous indignation.

[Bealzebub]

If a pax was concerned, he should approach the relevant company and maybe they might have told him that as responsible, professional adults (and having finished a duty) the company feels that their crews were entitled to have a small drink the same as any other human being.

I would like to have said that might would have been the operative word. However as we both know, the fact that a company could have even been identified in order to have been contacted at all would have been sufficient evidence to suggest that "responsible, professional adults" wouldn't likely have been their response.

Nobody is suggesting that these individuals were not entitled to have a "small drink." It doesn't matter if they were off duty pilots, policemen, surgeons or anything else. However given they were perfectly capable of divesting themselves of sufficient uniform items to both allay any concerns that might arise, and identify their company and office, it didn't take much common sense and effort to prevent this situation arising.

Calling the police is a rather pointless exercise as no offence has been committed. Inviting the perception that one has, is also pointless. It is to prevent this type of concern and potential inconvenience that companies have relevent rules in place. Those that don't (and they must be few,) either rely on the common sense of their employees not to embarrass the company or are presumably happy to deal with any negative PR. Taking your jacket, tie and epaulettes off must take all of 15 seconds. Saying to the public "Look at me I am a Captain/First officer with XYZ airlines" with an alcoholic drink in your hands (or any perception of one) is at best dim witted and liable to result in unwanted attention.

[PENKO]

Ok, hold on.
It's one thing that you see three pilots enjoying a drink and open a topic about it on PPRuNe. I share your concern. It's not the most professional thing to drink, off duty in uniform, when there are passengers around.

However it's something else when you start emailing their company. I'm not saying you shouldn't have. But they did not brake any law. They did not endanger anyone. They did not embarass you. I would shrugg, maybe even open a topic, but contacting their company? Isn't that a bit too...

Like a previous poster said, who knows what might have actually been going on.

[max_cont]

The fact is that as far as anyone is aware, no laws were being broken.
The fact is that no-one knows if the company has a rule regarding this matter, it matters not if it’s unusual; I used to work for one such company.
The fact is this crew’s identity is unknown and the role they play within the company concerned. For all anyone knows they might have just operated their last flight before redundancy.
Another curious fact is that posting an unrelated company’s rules regarding this matter is surprisingly irrelevant.

Try reaching an opinion based on facts… and the fact is that regarding this incidence, facts are in very short supply.

It would seem that the need for facts and that relationship in forming a valid opinion of an event, is an alien concept for many who post here.

[Bealzebub]

However it's something else when you start emailing their company. I'm not saying you shouldn't have. But they did not brake any law. They did not endanger anyone. They did not embarass you. I would shrugg, maybe even open a topic, but contacting their company? Isn't that a bit too...

Yes but that is the point. How would you know which company they belonged to if they had removed sufficient uniform. In fact why would you care or even notice!

If an off duty policeman was drinking at an airport bar, how would anybody know or care? On the other hand if he/she was wearing their uniform with shoulder numbers, their employer would likely be very unhappy to be notified.

[TightSlot]

I try to be tolerant of a rainbow of opinions, but this is beginning to stray into the realm of the cretinous.

No aircrew, anywhere, at any time, under any circumstance should publicly drink alcohol in identifiable uniform - whatever company regulations may mandate. This is defined by a mixture of regulation and common sense.

If an individual pilot in uniform chooses to do so, He/She may expect, at best, exactly this kind of query from the public, and the inevitable consequences, and at worst, summary dismissal. It is inconceivable that this can come as a surprise to the individual involved.

Yes we can speculate - they could all have lost their favorite Great Aunts in a tragic accident: They could have spent all day dealing with a sick puppy. It is all irrelevant.

Any true professional knows the above to be the case. If any one of you is unable to understand this core absolute of our industry then PPRuNe is absolutely not the place for you to post any further.

[Avitor]

If I were a concerned pax, about to board a flight, and presented with such a situation, I might approach the persons and politely enquire if they were going of duty or on. I would see no reason to find their employers and shop them.

Unless they admitted were going on duty.

[ph-ndr]

OK, hold your horses here. Some people are guessing a bit too much here.

I've not in this thread given away the airline in question. I said I've written a question to the airline in question, and yet again, I've not given away when/where/who in that email.

I've also stated I'm not into getting the press on to this, and I'm not out to get people into unwarranted problems. I wanted to air the issue of sitting in a lounge and seeing what should be three bright persons doing something that seems about as unnatural a cop drinking in a bar.

As many have pointed out, I do not know all the circumstances around this, I do not know what just happened. But I know what I saw and that got my attention, and for that reason I'm not about to disclose them here or to the employer in question after actually finding out from the lounge receptionist what flight was involved and verifying they were not on the flight deck.

-A

[ex-XL-in-exile]

I couldn't agree more with you there.

This is all about context - and with that in mind, a capt / FO sitting in a busy lounge, in full uniform, necking vodka in full view of anyone who happened to be around is TOTALLY unforgivable.

I happened to be drinking with a fellow 500 hour man, a good friend, last night in our local pub in my native leafy West Yorkshire. We were there, pint in hand, discussing our views on everything from AF447 to whether our pal's trip to Rome would be bumpy.

Had that happened while in full garb after a flight - and in full uniform - I would fully expect to be given the bullet irrespective of whether I was toasting the memory of my late goldfish or simply having one after work with collegues.

One's slacks and a local are only ever around the corner......

[Ten West]

Four stripes on the sleeve? Three? Not a problem.

It's the one with the Red Stripe on the cuffs that I'd be worried about! :p

[Capetonian]

I worked for an airline long ago, and I'm not saying who or where, although I will say that this airline now really only exists in name.

It was common practice for the flight deck crew, on night stops, to be in the bar at the hotel until midnight or later, prior to an early morning departure. Not in uniform, and probably not drinking a great deal, but still utterly wrong for all the reasons stated.

[One Outsider]

So, ph-ndr, you posted a 'question' and got the answers your said you expected.

So what the **** did you ask the question for in the first place?

[ph-ndr]

I've clearly stated why I posted this, and by now this has run it's course and I'm gatefull for the feedback. Time to move on, for all of us.

-A

[Griff]

Further discussion on this subject seems a little pointless to me after reading reply number 27 from the moderator.

That post sums up the matter exactly and there can surely be nothing more, from either a passenger or pilot that can usefully be added.

P.