Barriers to entry in other states

[Okavango]

Hi. If/when airlines are recruiting again, are there other barriers to entry in other states (particularly Europe though all around the world excluding the US considered), for example is it mostly necessary to have another language as well as English or do most airlines prefer to recruit their own nationals (if this is legal)? Where will be the best opportunities?

[redout]

If your Irish or British you get the short end of the stick in my opinion. Not only do we have to compete amongst ourselves for jobs but our market is also flooded by every other nationality in Europe. Now compare that to Spanish, French, Dutch, German etc were their markets they only mostly compete against themselves which obviously increases your chances considerably without doubt. I really believe British and Irish airlines should have preference for their own nationals before offering jobs to others. Before someone starts barking on about the EU or whatever aviation is a special case in my opinion as there are so few jobs available in the grand scheme of things when compared to nearly most other professions were there is ample room for other nationalities to apply.

[Donalk]

Redout - We operate in a single European market in respect of the free movement of capital and labour, thus If non Irish or UK nationals wish to apply and subsequently gain employment they are only exercising the same rights as you possess.

There is nothing preventing Irish or UK pilots gaining employment in Europe.

[Journey Man]

There is nothing preventing Irish or UK pilots gaining employment in Europe.

There is the theory, and then there is what happens in practice and in my experience of working throughout Europe the two are not the same.

[redout]

Donalk

I already said my piece on the EU. I noticed that you said "There is nothing preventing Irish or UK pilots gaining employment in Europe." This my friend is not correct. How many Brits or Paddys do you know that speak Dutch, Italian, German or Spanish for example. People from these other countries must speak our language to gain employment in aviation with an airline and in fact most have been taught English from an early age in school in their home country. Now foreign airlines do occasionally hire pilots who do not speak their mother tongue but are usually expected to learn it which is reasonable. There are also numerous foreign airlines which require you to speak their mother tongue as a mandatory requirement. The fact of the matter is that there are far more foreign pilots employed by British and Irish airlines then the other way around. How many Brits and Irish do you see attending Alitalia, Iberia, Lufthansa, Air France interviews etc ? It is apparently obvious that this swells the pool which British and Irish pilots have to compete with thus making it more difficult to find a job. Anyone who cant see that is not being reasonable.

[Longhitter]

Redout, Journeyman, Donalk:

You get the short end of the stick allright, because:

a. You never bothered to learn another language
b. Your educational system never bothered to teach you another language properly
c. Both of the above

The requirement to be fluent in the local language is quite common and not unreasonable in my view. Don't forget that every foreigner working for a UK / Irish airline had to master English to qualify for the job... If you're going to cry foul, do it over the shortcomings of your own language education and learn French/Dutch/German/Spanish if you fancy a job in one of these countries.

[redout]

Longhitter:

My own language happens to be the most important language in the world. It is the spoken language of two of the most important countries of the world with one of them being the most important. It is also language of business which practically makes it the language of the world. English is the most widely spoken second language in the world spoken by more non-natives than actual natives. I personally cannot speak for others but my countries education system did provide me the option to learn another language as I am sure does most other countries but it’s not of the same value to myself as a non-English speaker learning English now is it ? To add to that the UK has the biggest aviation sector in Europe which obviously means more jobs on offer than the other mentioned countries.

[Longhitter]

All very impressive, but it still won't land you a job in Europe outside of the UK and Ireland :}.

Judging from your bombastic and pompous ode to English you fall into category a from my previous post. If you had the option of learning a different language, why didn't you broaden your language/cultural horizon then? The fact that the "world's most important language" happens to be your mother tongue is an advantage, the time you saved on learning it from birth could have been invested in learning about other people and languages.

BTW: the UK as the second most important country of the world, had to laugh at that one...

[perceval]

I am sorry but they are actually right .It's close to impossible for a non-native speaker to land a job outside your own country in Europe , besides the british isles . There's exceptions of course but they are rare , more so because of the crisis . Scandinavian companies require fluency in at least one scandinavian language .Swissair advertisement recently called for an excellent knowledge of the german language (open to interpretation as well )....Having said that , the british manage to get their own back abroad: when one of their compatriot is in charge of a foreign company , his/her preference in terms of recruitment always leans towards their own people . We could talk about it all night and then again . That's the reality . Every country has it's requirements in terms of licencing , immigration and working rights and on top of that there's the unwritten 'preference' rules ....It's part of the game and we have to live with all of it .

[redout]

Longhitter:

One thing that is obvious from this is that your understanding of the English language is not complete. I said in my previous post "It is the spoken language of two of the most important countries of the world with one of them being the most important" How you got that makes the UK the second most important country is beyond me. All that can be deciphered from that is the United States is the most important. Also where did you read I do not have a second language? I told you my countries education system did provide the means if wanted. I do actually have a second language if you must know my friend. I suggest that you go and improve your understanding of the English language before making some more rather ridiculous statements.

[Longhitter]

You wrote that you had the option of learning another language, not that you actually did.

I fully understood your statement on the most important countries in the world, so let me rephrase: had to laugh at the idea that there might be people thinking that the UK is the second most important country in the world.

Lads: I'm not disputing the fact that it's more difficult for you to get a job outside the UK & Ireland than for 'continentals' to get one in Europe as a whole. I guess having the Alpha-language for a mother tongue is both a blessing and a curse (at least you get an automatic ELP-6...).

[Donalk]

So is it generally accepted that UK and Irish pilots are at a linguistic disadvantage in relation to their continental peers? This is only true if they choose not to learn another language. All pilots, irrespective of their nationality, must learn English so it is not unreasonable to expect a native English speaker to acquire a working knowledge of at least one other major European language. This is not mandatory by any means but would seem a prudent course of action if you wish to expand your employment prospects.

Logically the choice is an individual one but you cannot deny that the acquisition of other languages clearly makes you more marketable.

In my opinion part of the problem is the insular view that is held in the UK and Ireland where people choose not to develop their language skills. That does not however give anyone the right to discriminate against someone who has made the effort and who by choice has made themselves more attractive to employers.

In summary I would respectfully suggest that it is not in any pilots interest to moan about competition from foreign pilots, instead do something about it and level the playing field.

Incidentally Redout, I would be interested to learn what the second most important country in the world is?

[redout]

Donalk:

I think you also need to practice your English as I never named a country to be the second most important. I can’t fathom how both you and Longhitter came to that conclusion. "It is the spoken language of two of the most important countries of the world with one of them being the most important." that deciphered tells you that one country is the most important not that the other is the second most important. If I had said "It is the spoken language of the two most important countries of the world with one of them being the most important." then I could see your point but I did not say that and all it leads myself to believe is that your comprehension of the language is not complete.

As I said above I do have a second language although not fluent which is in part because I don’t get to use if often and really only if I travel to the country that speaks it and it is not of as much use to myself as a non-native having English. Also I don’t have the benefit of regularly being immersed to the language like many persons who have English as their second language as a lot of the popular TV shows, movies and songs on the radio being in English and this obviously helps most non-native speakers and gives them regular access to practice and listen to the language. How many German or Dutch TV shows, movies and songs do you think people in the UK are given regular access to? I can tell you the answer is very close to zero unless one buys a satellite or so forth.

[Okavango]

OK guys - lets not let this degenerate - the situation seems pretty much as I expected. To try and get back on track then - what about further afield - what's the situation in SE Asia, Africa and India? I know South America tend to be very protective of there own but there must be other opportunities out there.

[MartinCh]

Countries in Latin America have their own supply of fresh CPLs. Sure, there are some expat jet Captains flying there, but I think it's not your case.

From what I've read here, you would be disadvantaged or barred from having a chance without citizenship or residence.
About half (roughly) of the countries do not allow multiple citizenship and if they do, it's rather about other MERCOSUR, Spain or Portuguese nationals.

[MartinCh]

redout: I personally cannot speak for others but my countries education system did provide me the option to learn another language as I am sure does most other countries but it’s not of the same value to myself as a non-English speaker learning English now is it ?
Whoever spots more syntax and spelling mistakes wins.
Shouldn't 'natives' be the best at speaking and writing the 'best language'?

Although I can understand your view, some airlines from a 'minority language' country would be out of 'our' (=not born in the UK/ROI, ie the baddies for you) reach, too.

Don't go blaming others for the level of usefulness of learning other language or languages (in this case English versus Spanish, German, etc). You can go and live in the country where the language required by your dream airline is spoken. You could do something with it. Sure, probably not.

Talking about equal opportunities. Foreigners are discriminated against on the basis of foreign education (unknown quantity for many, hence 'dubious') even if it's of higher standard than needed/required. Ditto about work experience.

Your 'most important country' tautology is a joke. How could you actually say that these (by whichever criteria) have English as native language?

Donalk: In my opinion part of the problem is the insular view that is held in the UK and Ireland where people choose not to develop their language skills
That's one very 'PC' statement. More like not being bothered, lazy, lacking linguistic skills. Exceptions do apply.

[Donalk]

MartinCh - Yes it was a bit PC, but I find that a more liberal use of the vernacular generally elicits a broadside from those whose use (or misuse as you pointed out) of syntax and punctuation makes the response worthless and largely illegible.

Interestingly they are also more inclined to lament about 'foreigners taking our jobs'. This probably more than anything is a barrier to working in other states.

[no sponsor]

There's no doubt in my mind that a simple way to get around the hiring of non-natives is to say something like: "Level 6 language required' or "Very high standard of language x required". It used to be along the lines of National licence required, or even UK issued JAA licence to weed out applications. I even heard of national driving licence required.

I work for a UK airline, and we have quite a few non-UK nationals. Some of whose English is impeccable. However, I did fly with a contractor who could barely speak English, so much so that I did the RT in UK airspace all the PAs (at his request). He didn't last long though. He hated being in the UK! However, he was probably the finest handling pilot I have ever flown with; ex-French fast jet.

The fact that many Europeans second language is English (and the Dutch' fifth!) and it is a requirement for pilots, means that many will look to the UK for work. The only way you are going to change it is at the ballot box.

[Donalk]

Why would you even speculate on 'a simple way to get around the hiring of non-natives'.

What you are suggesting is blatant discrimination on the basis of a persons nationality. Why would you even consider something which is both offensive and obscene to anyone who enjoys the freedom to travel, and the right to live and work in any of the EU member states?

[no sponsor]

Donalk - I'm not condoning it. I was just highlighting the point that if you want to discriminate, then it is quite easy to do so under EU law, while still appearing legal and moral.

[Okavango]

All - please! I understand that there is competition from outside the UK for jobs in the UK - that's hard luck for us in the UK but it's not going to change and we have to live with it. So back to the main thread - what opportunities are there for Brits abroad - what level of foreign language is required etc and which airlines and/or countries typically allow work with only English (note this isn't me being lazy - I speak other european languages to GCSE level though these qualifications don't mean anything and I'm not going to learn Mandarin without good reason!).