Dear Taxpayer...

[d0ugi3]

Apparently every 3rd landing a Tiffie has the landing lights on it have to be replaced. The reason? A lead free solder being used in the circuitry. Link: Technograph flies on the Airbus A380 | Eurofighter / EFA/ Typhoon | RoHS - Technograph Microcircuits News (http://www.technographmicro.com/company_news.php .)
The rumored cost of replacing them is 400 pounds sterling... and there are 3 per Typhoon. Gross total is 1200 pounds sterling then.
Hmmm.... so there are 55 in service (don't quote me on that, please) and 89 are to be delivered. I'm not sure how many landings one would have to do annualy but still there is 55 x 1200 pounds being churned up from your pocket about every week. 66 000 pounds, now that would probably be every week.
Again it's just what I have been told...but from research it came apparent that it at least the use of a lead free solder is being used.
Anyway, back to the sums. 66 000 x 55... 3 and a 1/2 million pounds being spent on landing lights annualy because the MOD wants to use a lead free solder.
Now, I'm no aircraft mechanic so I wouldn't know how often they would need replaced with a lead based solder used, but the gross cost is still rather huge.
Then again you could divide up the amount of approximate taxpayers in the United Kingdom which comes to 29.3 million workers (yes it's quoted from another electronic source). 3 1/2 million / 28.9 comes to just over 12 pence per person per year.
This is not really acceptable, I would hope most of you would think so to.
If you are wondering about my source it's from someone who worked on the Eurofighter project. No names given though sorry.

Cheers.

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

"Apparently...", "rumored...", "I'm not sure...", "probably...", "I wouldn't know..."

Not exactly watertight your case is it?

"If you are wondering about my source..."

I wasn't, no.

[airborne_artist]

I know this is a rumour site, but you are stretching the concept a bit far. And anyway, so what - I expect that £400 is small change compared to the total cost per hour of the aircraft, manpower, facilities etc.

Your link is dud, by the way, which is not all that surprising - it's on par with the rest of the cr@p you've spouted.

Next time post about the lighthouse and the US aircraft carrier - at least that will make someone laugh :E

[cockney steve]

Whilst the compliant Lead free solder is crap to use and crap in service, there is an exemption for critical applications where proper lead-tin solder is the sensible option.......

The Romans built an empire with water piped in lead

Great Britain won 2 world wars and built an empire, whilst they and their forebears drank water piped through lead (and cast-iron).....

then their descendants lost the plot and decided that lead-containing solder was not safe to use joining copper piping together.

Perhaps the retard portion of the lead-affected descendants are all in Government and spend their time away from window-licking, thinking up stupid, irrational legislation.

[Gainesy]

Anyway Coningsby don't night fly, fool.:)

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Are we calling them "Tiffies" now? Thats shoite, on a par with Chinny.

Sorry to digress, Friday afternoon and all that. Anyhoo, this solder thing then................................

[Pontius Navigator]

if you remove the %20 from the link you will get THIS:

Company News
Technograph flies on the Airbus A380:
Techograph is proud to have 18 electronic modules on each Airbus A380. We also anticipate having parts on the Boeing 7E7 Dreamliner.

Eurofighter / EFA/ Typhoon:
Technograph has won significant orders for Tranche II of EFA (Typhoon) production. Electronic assemblies supporting various functions are made for various companies through-out Europe.

RoHS:
Technograph plans to be RoHS compliant (lead free) but will continue to offer lead based assembly options for those customer who are exempt or not covered by the directive.

Three different items and they do not expand or explain or link together.

[Bob Viking]

Well done mate. I'd say you have a bright future in journalism.
Look forward to your next piece of work.
BV:D

[Wensleydale]

The price of lead soldiers is shocking - although there was a nice Britain's Boer War naval gun set on e-bay the other week.

[CirrusF]

Another £400? Do we care? Each Typhoon is a waste of £85m anyway..

[navibrator]

How can anyone say Typhoon is a waste of money? We needed a replacement aircraft and we have bought one. What would you replace it with? I see you are from bored - like your post!

[spheroid]

Its a waste of money because it has been in service for close to 5 years and so far it has contibuted to.......




.... an Air show.


Lets get it out to Afghanistan where it can prove that it is the best in the world.

[ECAM_Actions]

When they proposed the idea, they kinda forgot it needed air-to-air weapons. Due to some backwards bueracracy, they decided using American AMRAAMs wasn't a good idea, so they've been waiting all this time for a new medium-range air to air missile to be developed.

By the time the thing ever gets deployed, it will be superceeded. What use is it being the best at BFM (I understand this is its main selling point) when it is being shot down at 50 miles by an electronically superior system?

I was reading a while ago that its RCS is not what they hoped for, either.

Sounds like the typical screw-up.

Scrap it now, and buy the F-22.

ECAM Actions.

[Bunker Mentality]

Spheroid - if Typhoon's not holding southern QRA at the moment, what is?

Or are you suggesting that defence of the homeland is not a worthwhile and important task for the Armed Forces?

[ECAM_Actions]

When those Bears came over 2007/2008, they scrambled, but apparently didn't have anything to shoot with. :confused:

ECAM Actions.

[spheroid]

The Typhoon conducting QRA.... what planet are you on...? Before the tax payer is content that it has got VFM from the Typhoon it needs to deploy and shoot at things and bomb people. We did not purchase this thing so that it could play at being the home guard

[Gnd]

Lose the piece of p**h, get some chinnies and do us all a favour!

[Bunker Mentality]

'We did not purchase this thing so that it could play at being the home guard'

Err - yes we did - although, of course, it's not 'playing'. Air defence of the UK was always going to be a key role.

Don't try and shift the premise of your argument - you wrote that all Typhoon had done was to perform at airshows, and you were wrong. You might not value the QRA role, but it is one of the key military tasks placed on Defence and one which, I think, the 'taxpayer' is keen to see done properly.

We would all agree that Typhoon needs to deliver more, but your disingenuously abrasive style adds neither information nor amusment.

Have you considered adding an 's' to the end of your handle? That would give new readers an immediate idea of what to expect from your posts.

[spheroid]

So we did buy the Tiffie (Yuk) to be the home guard....at last someone has got the guts to admit it...... Well done BM for having the bravery to put your reputation on the line and finally admit that we spent the entire economy of a small country on an aircraft which was designed to protect us from the hoarding masses. So, the next question is how many of them are right now on QRA....

[Jackonicko]

Spheroid, you absolute twong!

How many Typhoons do you expect to be on QRA when you've funded it so slowly (and diverted so may to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia) that you still have only enough jets to equip two frontline squadrons (........just about)?

Two frontline squadrons is (and always has been) enough to maintain one station on QRA, and, guess what? Coningsby does shoulder the entire burden of Southern Q, and will be helping prop up Northern Q as well when the F3 force goes down to 12 jets in September, I'll be bound.

The Typhoon has proved its 'austere' air-to-ground capability (strafe, up to six PW/EPWII, dumb 1,000-lbers),

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2640067478_bf4017ffea.jpg

http://www.eurofighter.com/images/RAFinUSA.JPG

http://www.militaryimages.net/ims/pic/6SYYE9/109.jpg

and has done a 'Flag, a Magic Carpet, etc. but how do you maintain that capability when you have just two squadrons and a full A-A and QRA commitment? You can't. But that's not down to the aircraft, nor to the dedicated folk at Coningsby who operate it, nor those at Warton who provide it.

You could argue that we should have deployed a handful of Typhoons for a PR stunt like the French did with Rafale, and I'm sure that industry would have appreciated that. Whether that would have had much military value is another debate.

You might also ask why we haven't gone beyond the scope of the original Austere A-G requirement and properly integrated PWIV - with all of its fusing options - now that that weapon has proved to be so useful.

But with the Falklands commitment about to be shuffled from F3 to Typhoon there's even less chance of any Typhoons being available for deployed ops in Afghanistan, but the idea that the jet isn't capable, or wouldn't be useful, is risible.

If you want to see Typhoons in theatre, then don't retire the F3 so quickly, up the Typhoon production rate, and go all out for the original plan of seven frontline squadrons - which would give a reserve over the five squadrons that have always been regarded as the bare minimum to sustain UK AD and the Falklands commitment.

You might also ensure that support contracts are signed promptly enough, and that they cover all aircraft delivered, and (hell, you seem like a go-getter) you might even reconsider the farce that is incentivised availability based support contracting and return to a properly funded, all light blue first/second/third line engineering structure, rather than the current bastardised service/industry forward/depth malarkey.

ECAM,

Just plain wrong, old chap. "They kinda forgot it needed air-to-air weapons"? Utter toss. The jet was always designed for a mix of BVR and WVR A-A missiles.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/weapons.jpg

"Due to some backwards bueracracy, they decided using American AMRAAMs wasn't a good idea"? Your 'understanding' is even more limited than your spelling! Typhoon has had AMRAAM (and ASRAAM) in service since before being declared operational in the A-A role. The frontline (not just 17) had even fired them by the time those 'Bears' stooged over.

http://www.sirviper.com/news/typhoon_asraam.jpg

http://warisboring.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/typhoon1.jpg

"They've been waiting all this time for a new medium-range air to air missile to be developed." AMRAAM was viewed as an interim weapon for Typhoon, and Meteor is on the way, pretty much as planned.

Your understanding (eg: "I understand this is its main selling point") is thus seriously out of kilter with reality - Typhoon is optimised for BVR (and the absolute range of Captor M is not a problem). The jet is a flexible versatile swing role platform, with BVR very much its forte, and it is not merely "the best at BFM".

[Yeoman_dai]

Proved itself at air to ground eh?

So why has this months Air Force monthly run a story about the Typhoons computers being unable to 'talk' to Paveway's and therefore be unable to be deployed to Afghan?
Despite all those pretty picture's you've so nicely posted :ok:


Beyond that, totally agree on the air to air points.

[Jackonicko]

It's talking to Paveway IV that's the issue. An integration that no-one has actually paid for. (As I alluded to in the post).

PWII/EPWII is fine, I believe.

As to the pretty pics, I just wanted to be sure that this was the same Typhoon that "they kinda forgot needed air-to-air weapons", and "decided using American AMRAAMs wasn't a good idea."

You know, the one which "didn't have anything to shoot with when those Bears came over 2007/2008."

And the same Typhoon that has no ability to "shoot at things and bomb people."

[spheroid]

The Typhoon has proved its 'austere' air-to-ground capability (strafe, up to six PW/EPWII, dumb 1,000-lbers)

Apologies...I must have missed that. Was that in Iraq or Afghan? Its not a bad capibilty though....not many of our aircraft have the ability to drop dumb 1000lb bombs. I'm sure that all the tax payers will rest easily tonight safe in the knowledge that the typhoon can drop practice ammunition...

[Jackonicko]

Spheroid,

Selective quoting - the last refuge of a scoundrel! (and I should know....)

I did not once suggest that Typhoon had used its air-to-ground capability operationally - only that that capability had been proven.

You started this facile and pointless argument by making the empty (and rather offensive) suggestion that:

"Its a waste of money because it has been in service for close to 5 years and so far it has contibuted to....... .... an Air show."

It has been pointed out to you that its initial primary role was UK AD.

It has been pointed out to you that the force is still too small to do much else.

It has been pointed out to you that the aircraft does have a proven A-G capability, which, I suggest, goes some way towards proving that "it is the best in the world", albeit not by contributing to ongoing ops.

This capability has been brought forward, so that the jet has an A-G capability earlier than planned.

It certainly gives the lie to your infantile cracks about the 'Home Guard'.

As to 'practise ammunition' the bombs that 11 dropped at Garv' made a f*cking big bang for PBs......

And, just out of interest, when's the last time a GR4 or Harrier carried six EPWIIs, together with a full air-to-air loadout. Oh, OK then, without an air to air loadout.

[spheroid]

It has been pointed out to you that its initial primary role was UK AD. Wrong my friend.


From a government website.

Typhoon, formerly known as Eurofighter, is an agile multi-role combat aircraft. Designed for air superiority

Anyway....last post on this but you could argue all night on the fantastic capibilities of the Typhoon and how it has successfully replaced the Jaguar and Tornado BUT until the tax payer sees it on the front line killing people and bombing the taliban then its role as keeper of the home guard is becomming a bit of a joke.

[Jackonicko]

If you want to deploy some Typhoons to bomb people, then keep enough F3s to do the UK AD job, and provide enough Typhoons to deploy some of them.

Otherwise, stop whining.

[Archimedes]

Time for a game of spot the difference:

Spheroid:

From a government website.


Typhoon, formerly known as Eurofighter, is an agile multi-role combat aircraft. Designed for air superiority

Or -

A government website:

MOD Major Projects Report 2008- Project Summary Sheets, p.151 (http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc0809/hc00/0064/0064_ii.pdf)

Typhoon, formerly known as Eurofighter, is an agile multi-role combat aircraft. Originally designed primarily, but not exclusively, for air superiority the aircraft is also capable of delivering a precision ground attack capability. Typhoon has the flexibility to respond to the uncertain demands of the current strategic environment and is progressively replacing the Tornado F3 and Jaguar aircraft.

Similar wording is used in the 2007 report.

Or, if not happy with that one, in the NAO's 2006 Report (p.139) (http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc0607/hc00/0023/0023_ii.pdf) the wording is different:

Typhoon, formerly known as Eurofighter, is an agile multi-role combat aircraft. Originally designed for air superiority the aircraft will also be capable of delivering a precision ground attack capability. Typhoon will have the flexibility to respond to the uncertain demands of the current strategic environment and will enable the Royal Air Force to replace progressively the Tornado F3 and Jaguar


AIUI, the wording from '06 was altered for later reports because it was pointed out by several sources, that the aircraft could not & would not have been ordered from the outset as a Jaguar replacement if it didn't have a multi-role capability as part of the original requirement.

I'll leave ppruners to spot the difference between and the provenance of the variations above...

[Dan Winterland]

Dougie's point is not just about the cost of Typhoon landing lights but about the problems of lead free solder foisted on the electronics world by Eurocrats. Any electronic item sold in Europe must have lead free solder. Military applications are exempt, however everyone is going the lead free way due to the size of the commercial markets. So lead free solder is being used in many military applications and the high tin content and low melting point is causing failures in military equipment.

To give you an example of how problems can manifest themselves, my son's laptop LAN socket stopped working and then dropped out of the computer. Apparently, the lead free solder is more brittle and couldn't stand the stresses from the cable being moved.

Google 'Tin Whiskers' for some insight into the problem.