The Defense Budget - What would you do?

[22/7 Master]

There is no doubt that the MoD is in both short and long term financial dire straits.

Would you be willing to take one for the team in the form of a 5% pay cut now to help fill the delta? This would be subject to a once only rebalance, across the board, with future pay rises (increments and AFPRB) unaffacted - ie you get your pay rise, but it would be a rise against the 5% lower level.

I would. I think that if we, corporately could make the offer it would demonstrate to the public the importance we all attach to maintaining our capability and our belief of how damaging cuts at this particular juncture would be. It would generate debate, push defense spending to the forefront of the public's mindset and give the people with defense a justifiable ownership of our future equipment programme.

As a second question, does anybody working in the area know what the saving would be - in total for defence and for the three individual commands?

Of note an interesting point on QT last night - Every penny of income tax is spent on the welfare system. Everything else is funded from indirect taxation. Perhaps all welfare payments should be cut by 5% aswell!

[Willard Whyte]

I wonder what effect a hold on promotions for 5 years would have on the MOD's wages budget. We could afford to 'lose' a fairly large chunk of Wg Cdr (and upwards) bods from the RAF too.

[ZH875]

The rank structure of the RAF could be changed.

Maybe (Hahaha) a Flight Commander could be a Flt Lt instead of a Sqn Ldr
or a Squadron Commander could be a Sqn Ldr instead of a Wg Cdr
There could be Group Captains in charge of Groups instead of Air Commodores.:p

Close bases in the south of the UK where the real workers of the RAF cannot afford a house, and rebuild/reopen bases in the North, and then apply a windfall tax on Annington Homes for the southern MQs.

And Finally to save the biggest amount of money:

The nearest Service establishment to the Houses of Parliament should have a large Premier Inn style block built with 635 rooms. (better still let the MPs live in NORMAL barrack accomodation - then they can live the same way as living-in Service Personnel) All MPs can stay there, and all second homes allowances can be scrapped. No need to pay them extra £400/month for food, as they will be able to get 'home' for food.

[Arty Fufkin]

Would I be willing? No, not really. Pay cuts and freezes only work in the private sector when a companies future is potentialy at stake. This is because ultimatimtely all private sector companies are profit making organisations. Loosing 5% of your pay is better than loosing your job.

Here in the public sector, we are paid from the defence budget. The best you could hope for is that the money you donate back would be spent on something useful. I can't say I approve of this though, as it would be tantamount to making guys buy their own ammunition on ops, or fuel, or food, or body armour.

More likely however is that the cash would ultimately end up being wasted away trying to make DIIII work, or auditing travel claims. I get paid less than my civilian counterpart already, I can't see that widening that gap would aid retention much.

So essentialy........No. But maybe I'm just jack:cool:

[GPMG]

Do you propose this for ranks in the higher earning bracket? Or for all ranks? I can't see it going down very well with a Cpl with 2 children in married quarters, yet alone one with a mortgage.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Maybe (Hahaha) a Flight Commander could be a Flt Lt instead of a Sqn Ldr
or a Squadron Commander could be a Sqn Ldr instead of a Wg Cdr

What - you mean......the flying world is out of kilter with the blunties who have flt lts, sqn ldrs and wg cdrs commanding flts, sqns and wgs? Quick - someone tell the senior management - they will change things!

:rolleyes:

[Wyler]

Have been watching Wimbledon and there seem to be an awful lot of uniforms hanging about. Coldstream Guards just signed a One Million pound recording contract. Hundreds of service personnel on Public Duties.
Maybe a reassessment of the priorities would not go amiss. Bit hard to convince the public we are hurting when stuff like the above goes on and men and women are losing their jobs and homes every day.
The 'Publicity' argument no longer washes I am afraid. With the recession, the CIOs are bulging at the seams.
I know I will get shot down in flames but it is about time we thought long and hard about the bells and whistles activities.

If not, we are ripe for plucking and 'totally plucked' we will be!

[Wyler]

Mr Hinecap.

I think the Blunty jibes should be left back in the Cold War, don't you? There are far more people out on the ground in The Stan putting their lives on the line at the moment, so your purile sense of self worth is a little out of place.:mad:

[Arty Fufkin]

I like Bluntie jibes.

[Madbob]

I am ex RAF and joined up in 1979 during Maggie's tenure as PM. Then the RAF was c. 117,000 (not sure of the exact no but its close enough). I left in the post Cold War options for change in 1989 and have few regrets...:ok:

Even back then there were Defence Cuts. Remember John Nott? Then came the Falklands War. Suddenly the Forces were needed and to be fair, losses and attrition in that war were made good, something that can't be said today :=.

Then came the end of the Cold War and the toppling of the Berlin Wall and this was an excuse for further cuts in the so-called "options for change" review. I recall this being sold to us on the basis of "more teeth and less tail". Then came Croatia, Bosnia, Balkans Ops and the first war that NATO got involved with in Europe. The world suddenly seemed a less stable place to be.

This then is followed by GW1, GW2 and now Afganistan. Where next? Korea, Iran, Pakistan? There's still a lot of "un-finished business" and the withdrawal from Iraq and the peace in Northern Ireland doesn't take away the need for substantial armed forces in the future if we as a country wish to exert ANY influence on the world stage. We need to be credable in forums such as the UN (esp as a permanent member of the security council), NATO, the G8 etc. etc.

The bottom line is we in the armed forces don't set the agenda. Our political masters decide where they want (need) us but don't ever give us either the right tools or sufficient quantity to get the job done properly. It is a case of "more butter or less bread" and I suspect again it will be neither.:ugh:

Politically it would be suicidal for us to pull out of AFG and allow Al Quaida to re-group and then mount attacks against Western interests on our "home" soil - what would happen to Pak and how would that threaten India? India is important economically (almost as much as China) to the world and what would that do to future world trade?

We are now spending c. 2.5% of GDP on the defence and protection of this country at a time when the external threats we face are real and unlikely to go away. I'm not necessarily meaning a State-on-State conflict but more of the kind we faced in Malaya in the 1950's when counter-insurgency was first encountered. The big problem is a weak political leadership, unwilling to heed the advice of its military advisors, and a Treasury which interferes with "bean counters" dictating policies not just within the MOD but also within the NHS, Education etc. etc.

The £1BN extra cost for the "future carrier" project is largely due to delays to the original procurement schedule and not due to the contractor.

The real question is that 2.5% of GDP is not a realistic figure to fund the armed forces if we are to have Trident, be able to mount "expeditionary" warefare ops, and conduct a war in AFG 3,000 miles from home. Either we, as a country accept a "border protection force" as being the limits of our global presence (or should I say pretence?) OR we agree to fund the armed forces with say 4-5% of GDP and do so on a long-term basis.

4-5% I would argue is both sustainable and appropriate. We waste too much money on things like the Millennium Dome, 2012 Olympics and MP's expenses! That said, MOD procurement needs to sharpen up to cut the waste on Nimrod, A400M etc. But these cost over-runs are perhaps inevitable if the original design criteria is cost and not based on a performance spec. Also, we lose all ecoomies of scale if we don't stick to the original numbers. 6 T45's instead of 12. 12 MR4's instead of 18 etc. We were able to fund the armed forces at this level even in the "austere" post-war period in the 1950's (remember Suez?) what's so different today?

What really irks me now is that even combat losses are not being made up with attrition orders for aircraft that have been lost on ops coupled with the removal (prematurely) of other much-valued assets which had been bought and paid for and still useful in the ORBAT. (Jaguar, Sea Harrier).

Part of the blame though does however rest with out own Service "top brass". A collective protest or notice to offer their resignations, unless resources match the "ask", would get a lot of attention and gain serious respect from their troops. Bring back military hospitals, stop base closures (Lyneham, Coltishall, Scampton, St. Mawgan.......)

Rant over.....MB out!

[Brewers Droop]

Its very easy to argue amongst ourselves about what we should cut but if you put us alongside other Government departments I think there is a case that the pain should lie elsewhere.

At the risk of sounding like a Daily Mail reader, if you really want to save serious cash here are my big five:

1. Get a grip of Social Security. I have every sympathy for those who want to work or have recently lost their jobs. However, there are many who have been brought up with the belief that you get something for nothing. Also, look at the sacred cows - should everyone get universal Child Benefit? In short, the Social Security system should be a safety net only because whether we like it or not, we cannot afford it.

2. Get a grip of the compensation culture and rebalance risk adversion. At the very least, put a cap on compensation and stop the ludicrous payouts in all but very specific circumstances. Am I the only one who thinks that it is the Lawyers who need to take a good look at themselves?

3. Admit the pension timebomb. Raise the state pension age and let people work longer if they want. Undo the pension tax on dividend payments that has destroyed what was an excellent private pension system. Make saving for retirement compulsory and a proportion of income.

4. As for the armed forces. Decide whether we are a global player, a contributor to coalition efforts or a simple home defence force and resource appropriately. If they want us to carry on as a global player then we need more money. In which case, stop arguing amongst ourselves and start fighting our corner.

5. Get rid of JPA. If only for the reason that noone else has said it as yet and I wanted to be the first.

Overall, I understand the sentiment behind taking a pay cut but I despair where that money would subsequently go.

Oh damn, I did sound like a Daily Mail reader didn't I?

[Willard Whyte]

Could be worse, you could sound like a grauniad reader.

[philrigger]

;)

Have been watching Wimbledon and there seem to be an awful lot of uniforms hanging about. Coldstream Guards just signed a One Million pound recording contract. Hundreds of service personnel on Public Duties.

They are all on leave. The perk is to watch tennis.

[airborne_artist]

The perk is to watch tennis.

Er, no. The perk is to meet attractive young ladies and get to know them "better"...:}

[Re-Heat]

Bin Trident.

Too much money to replace a system we're never going to use. With more effective MOABs / cruise missiles, there is no justifictation for an un-targetted weapon that produces fallout over civilian poputations, both friendly and enemy.

I bet Bin Laden is quaking with fear that we would consider renewing Trident...

Also - chop DPA in its entirety, and restart procurement on the basis not of buying small amounts of do-it-all kit, but greater volumes of specialised, more cost effective kit (A330M should have been split as a dedicated tanker fleet and a dedicated transport fleet to minimise the costs involved):

- Eliminate most upper ranks in the RAF such that the size and structure is supportive of the assets operated
- Civilianise and outsource non-base admin functions
- Cancel A400M and buy 30 C17s now
- Buy transport-only aircraft off the shelf (A350s / 777s), maintained by BA/Virgin
- Buy more UAVs and integrate with JSF/Typhoon
- Re-establish NCO flight crew
- Cancel Nimrod and buy Poseidon...(bit late really now though)
- Ensure bases remain - it may be cheaper to "consolidate", but the flexibility is paramount
- Sort out the waste that is Annington Homes

[Mr C Hinecap]

Mr Hinecap.

I think the Blunty jibes should be left back in the Cold War, don't you? There are far more people out on the ground in The Stan putting their lives on the line at the moment, so your purile sense of self worth is a little out of place.

I am of the non-flying bretheren. I am on the ground. Flying is something the handsome wee boys in their romper suits do. I am a Loggie. I am 'blunt'.

I was making a slightly tongue-in-cheek point that the non-flying world does things differently to the two-winged master race. I am sorry that my irony was, to you, just another metal, like coppery.

[Arty Fufkin]

Self jibeing blunties!! Whatever next?

[Widger]

22/7,

Whilst your profile claims to be 2 miles away from Wreford's, are you actually in the UK military because Defence is spelt that way, not Defense.

Are you a Troll?? Explain yourself YANK!
:=

[anita gofradump]

Bin Trident

Who the f*&k is Bin Trident? I thought the bloke was called Bin Laden!???

I can't keep up here, more Bins than a council estate.

[Pontius Navigator]

Look through the other end of the telescope.

Joe Bloggs is a university student or unemployed and is a debt on the nation.
Tommy Atkins OTOH is not on the dole and although also a debt on the nation you may deduct his notional dole money, income tax and national insurance, and his other indirect taxes. The balance is therefore either neutral or a credit.

At the other end of the scale, your wg cdr would either be working and contributing the same as Tommy Atkins or retired with a big bucket of money and a substantial pension. One is a credit and the other a straight debit albeit with some taxes paid.

Either way, in the overall scheme of things, an employed serviceman is cheaper for the economy than a redundant one who still costs big bucks but is no longer productive.

[Re-Heat]

But a capitalist society works by recycling the unemployed Wg Cmdr in a new role, either as an entrepreneur or new employee.

As a year 1 economics student would tell you, the size of the cake is not fixed!

[Wander00]

Pedant I may be, but I prefer "Defence" with a "c"!

[Pontius Navigator]

But a capitalist society works by recycling the unemployed Wg Cmdr in a new role, either as an entrepreneur or new employee.

As a year 1 economics student would tell you, the size of the cake is not fixed!

That's as maybe, unless the wg cdr upsticks to Spain or Oz or whereever or decides his pension is big enough. Sometimes it is a double hit as Mrs Wg Cdr retires when he does too.

PS,

and I wouldn't trust any first year student to even buy a postage stamp on time.

[skaterboi]

If UK PLC was at war and the nation's survival depended on it then yes. Since it's not, the answer is no I would not accept a 5% pay cut.

On a personal level with kids and a mortgage it would hit me quite hard. But the main reason is that whilst 22/7M's intentions are admirable, the basic plan is crap.

I doubt it would save that much money in the grand scheme of things and it would just enhance the push factor when the economy eventually, but inevitably picks up. Furthermore, moral would go even further south than it is now.

Notwithstanding the problems with the UK's Social Security policy, the crux of the problem (as has been eluded to already) is the mismatch between the government's desire for us to be a world military power and the amount they're willing to spend.

[ProfessionalStudent]

Leave Afghanistan to the Americans.

[minigundiplomat]

Mr Hinecap.

I think the Blunty jibes should be left back in the Cold War, don't you? There are far more people out on the ground in The Stan putting their lives on the line at the moment, so your purile sense of self worth is a little out of place.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif


Some of those staples sharp are they?

What are these death defying acts you deliver on det then?

Stump up or shut up!

[charliegolf]

PN said some good stuff ending with:

Either way, in the overall scheme of things, an employed serviceman is cheaper for the economy than a redundant one who still costs big bucks but is no longer productive.

National service? Probably not.

Pay cut? Emphatically no! What value judgement does that imply when people are in harm's way, fighting and dying?

Cancel Trident.

CG

[SirPercyWare-Armitag]

"Defense" budget?
"Help fill the delta"?????

I would sack any senior officer who fails to use the English language proper-like :E

[Al R]

If Frank Field and Greg Pope manage to get Broon's decision to scrap the 10p bottom rate of income tax revisited next week, even more cuts are going to have to be made.

PS: Brewers, saving for retirement is going to become compulsary in 3 years or so. And if public service final salary schemes are still around in 5, I'll be gobsmacked.

[andyy]

Cut massive swathes of admin & bureacracy out of the MoD in all areas
Contractorise even more functions but streamline the bidding process
Reduce the number of Senior Officers in all 3 Services massively - the "pyramid" needs to be flatter & the reporting/ admin structure really needs to be examined to see where it is adding value & where it is adding "nausea"
Combine Commands/ Functions (eg CAS & CinCStrike, 1SL & CinCFleet etc)
Bring the Army back from Germany so that they can spend their money in the UK
Must be some more Airbases that can close (unless they are needed to house the Army returning from Germany)
Close BRNC Dartmouth & conduct initial Naval Officer training either at HMS Raleigh or in a joint service estlishment with professional training at HMS Collingwood (eventually Collingwood would have to close, too, & move its functions to Raleigh)
Close Portsmouth Naval Base & shift all RN ships to Devonport (pity they have just announced the opposite move for FF/DDs)


& that's just off the top off my head & there's plenty that will disagree with me, I'm sure. Trouble is that there would be even more in-fighting between the Services & within each Service than hitherto and, most importantly, the changes would all COST money & require investment to bring to fruition. Even if they were considered to be good ideas the Politicians would just think in the short term.

[jim2673]

Chop CEA.
Reduce specialist pay by 50%

[Beatriz Fontana]

As we were saying at lunch (a little liquid)...

Let's just bin the whole bally lot. Scrub the single services completely and have a single defence force. Centralise all the support functions, think of all that money saved. And no more single service chiefs bickering. All one uniform, so we can keep the costs of kit down, joint training regimes wherever possible then specialise on sea, land or air. Build super-bases across the country (it's happening anyway with Devonport becoming a ghost town (if FOST moves it'll be goodnight Guz)). Give SAR to the Coastguard, too.

Like I say, it was a bit liquid and we did work this up on the back of a fag packet. A bit like the last budget, really :}

[Widger]

Andyy, Andyy, Andyy, Beatriz, Beatriz, Beatriz,

I really do not mean to be rude but, I have had two pints of Bulmers. You really should think a bit more carefully before posting such uninformed and naive drivel. I think you should both stick to Rum Ration.

Sorry, don't mean to be rude but do you expect those posts to be taken seriously?

[Beatriz Fontana]

Ah Widger, you have spotted the irony in my posting. And no, I don't expect anyone to take it seriously. That was why it was written in the style that it was.

Have another apple juice and lighten up.

[Widger]

Glug Glug, light is on, what's the weather like in Lee tonight?:ok::ok::ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Without Trident you get 15 billion quid to spend between the forces.

5bn each (apologies to Royal Marines).

You have to stretch it out over 20 years - but what would you buy? And if he RAF doesn't say helicopters and transport aircraft or mentions fighters then ban them from the thread..

A shed load of Mastiff/Panther/Husky/.50cal/Boots/Aircon/viable comms kit would be my vote but I know nothing and have no vote.


WWW

[Riskman]

Cut massive swathes of admin & bureacracy out of the MoD in all areas
Contractorise even more functions but streamline the bidding process

It's been done; The project managers who get vilified in the press and elsewhere for equipment delays do their own recruiting, promoting of staff, special leave and training authorisation and welfare follow-up thereby saving the taxpayer the cost of, mostly, junior grade staff. The pay admin element is contracted out to PPPA. Streamlining of commercial functions is only possible when Treasury and EU say so.

Must be some more Airbases that can close

Kinloss? Plenty of real estate at Waddington to accomodate just 9 MRA4s.

Leuchars/Lossie? Shut one or the other, scrap the GR4 (F3s are gone soon anyway) and embrace the future that is Typhoon. Walk away from JCA/JSF (which is it?) and have a maritime version of Typhoon instead. Close both stations and have carriers instead. One can moor in the Moray Firth while the other goes on a world cruise, then they swap over.:E

If technical training is to be centralised do it at an existing site rather than move it to somewhere the current instructor cadre don't want to go, that is miles from the motorway and isn't in a central location.

That's my two penn'orth. SWs to you all.

R

[mr fish]

RAF should buy gripen,

no reason really, i just think she looks sweet.:ok:

[elderlypart-timer]

Now is the time to announce future asset sales - don't sell them now but give a notional date when we think the recession will be over when we intend to flog them.

The biggest asset sale currently planned is Ofcom's statement in Jan 08 that they intend to flog off a big chunk of Govt-controlled radio spectrum, 75% of which is allocated to MoD. Back then they said this could raise between £3bn and £20bn. All you need to do is cite the precedent of the sale of Chelsea Barracks (when all £950m of the proceeds went back to MoD) and Bob's your uncle.

Next on the list is Wellington and Hyde Park Barracks. Lovely central London locations and as far as I can see of no value in the defence of the realm.

Then as someone else mentioned moving bases to the North would save money - there's an entire episode of Yes Minister devoted to this proposal. Of course if there is evidence that these moves would significantly worsen retention rates in key trades then perhaps not.

Sadly my understanding re the bases in Germany is that we requisitioned all of the sites in 1945 and therefore if and when we hand them back we won't get a penny.

[Navy_Adversary]

In PMQs today the PM was asked by a Scottish MP if the 3rd Aircraft carrier would be built, he confirmed that it would be.:rolleyes:

Will the UK be able to afford to put any aircraft on these carriers?:confused:

[Willard Whyte]

Self jibeing blunties!! Whatever next?

Self mockery is a step towards enlightenment, and if one can't mock oneself, one should never mock others.

There are a fair few (fellow aviators) I've worked with who'd do well to remember that, their arrogance was, and is, ultimately backed by insecurity and self-doubt.

[andyy]

Widger

I amit that I am now "outside" and that my post was trite but the point was that re-organisations in the name of saving money or re-allocating money usually cost in the short term. Nevertheless, many people have criticised the top heavy and admin intensive nature of our MoD & individual Forces over the years. You can be as rude as you like but how about hearing your well considered (and sober) suggestions as to what to with the Defence budget.

[Prangster]

The sound of grinding axes doth filleth the air! Every last man jack paddling his own canoe and not many of us looking at the broader picture. We fought 2 world wars with a tenth of the number of bodies in the MOD cum civil service side of the operation. Time to stop drawing teeth and start by slicing the surplus civil service tail that for too long now has wagged the military dog. I wouldn't mind if the blighters got it right but jeez the waste has been little short of spectacular. If savings aren't made I can see but one outcome. The eventual Canadianisation of all three services. What price independent thought then?

[Widger]

Cut massive swathes of admin & bureacracy out of the MoD in all areas
A very sweeping statement. Give us an example.
Contractorise even more functions but streamline the bidding process What do you think smart acquisition is trying to do. What do you think has happened over the last 10 years with the amalgamation of two organisations, DPA and DLO into what is now DE&S.
Reduce the number of Senior Officers in all 3 Services massively - the "pyramid" needs to be flatter & the reporting/ admin structure really needs to be examined to see where it is adding value & where it is adding "nausea"
Notwithstanding the fact that what you actually are alluding to is to make the pyramid sharper, not flatter, it is always a good soundbite for many to use this argument. Give us some examples then.
Combine Commands/ Functions (eg CAS & CinCStrike, 1SL & CinCFleet etc) Already happened. 2SL and CincFleet into Navy Command, Strike and PTC into Air.
Bring the Army back from Germany so that they can spend their money in the UK They are already coming back.
Must be some more Airbases that can close (unless they are needed to house the Army returning from Germany)Already happening, Lyneham and Scampton, Gutersloh....But be very careful, once you lose a runway or a wharf, you will never get it back. far better for our airfields to be used for other Defence use.
Close BRNC Dartmouth & conduct initial Naval Officer training either at HMS Raleigh or in a joint service estlishment with professional training at HMS Collingwood (eventually Collingwood would have to close, too, & move its functions to Raleigh)Now you are just showing your Senior Rate engineer bias. Move everything to Raleigh and Collingrad. Dartmouth generates income and I am not sure that the land is MODs to sell anyway. (please correct me if I am wrong) and what do you think the Defence Training Review is doing at St Athan?
Close Portsmouth Naval Base & shift all RN ships to Devonport (pity they have just announced the opposite move for FF/DDs) Oh please..so you are an ex Guzz based WE rating with a chip about Pompey. These issues have been examined already and presented to Government. the decision was and is to move several ships to Portsmouth, Submarines to Scotland and keep FOST and the amphibious ships in Guzz, where.....surprise, surprise...they will be next to their main customer...the Royal Marines, in Devonport, Stonehouse and Chivenor. Sounds like common sense to me.

In summary, my point is, that it is very easy for uninformed, armchair politicians to spout utter drivel (yes I am being rude) on here, which has clearly not been researched and does absolutely no favours to those people who are trying to juggle the realities of a lack of money and are looking at having to take some very real and unpalatable decisions..IN ALL THREE SERVICES. Now..Get back to Rum Ration and have a nice evening:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Jimlad1]

"£We fought 2 world wars with a tenth of the number of bodies in the MOD cum civil service side of the operation."

So you think the MOD in the war was 5000 strong? The whole MOD CS, which includes everything from armed guards to rocket scientists is 85000 strong. By all means cut it, but what is it that you want to stop doing?

[Mr-AEO]

By all means cut it, but what is it that you want to stop doing

Ok, for starters, why don't we get rid of the jobsworths who think they are helping me deliver front line support by conducting a 'Desk Risk Assessment' every flipping second and making my life difficult. I had more freedom as a child, yet now I have these oxygen thieves patrolling the floorplate for 'elf and safety purposes, which seem to come at the expense of doing real things.:ugh:

[VinRouge]

Gotta say, when I worked at Binnsworth, there were a LOT of jobsworths! Lots of people rushing round, trying to conv0ince everyone else they were busy, most doing jobs that service personnel do as a secondary duty in about 5 minutes.

How many full time staff does it take to work a photocopier? How many Admin staff do you need to administrate the administrators? How many PAs, secretaries, tea girls?

How many "informative" leaflets need to be printed on expensive glossy paper before we realise we have a wonderment called email and the intranet to send out such guff as "u need 2 no?"

Whether we like it or not, ALL budgets across public expenditure are about to go through the Canadian model.

B.C.'s plan to cut public service by up to 57% | National Union of Public and General Employees (http://www.nupge.ca/node/2292)

HALVING their civil service!

To be honest, did anyone notice the last time the entire civil service went on strike?

[NURSE]

If It was me in the MOD as Sec State for defence.

1. Cut down the civil service support for the armed forces and strengthen areas like procurment with people qualified (professionally qualified to do day to day purchasing). Remove the political appointees ie special advisors and curtail the use of management consultants.
2. review the employment of undeployable personel and modify the pay structure to reflect this. using the same formula as is used with reservists on FTRS.
3. Use long term secondment of service officers to procurement projects. Increase the power of user opinion in the procurment process. Purchase more of the shelf.
4. Change the relationship of the Service chiefs to the government by re writing the job descriptions to try and remove the political yes men mentality.
5. Try to get a balanced, long term and integrated approach to defence. with balanced and flexible forces.
6. End PFI procurment of items like Arcraft and Ships.

[500days2do]

Having been one of those blunties for 11 of my 23 years I totally agree with the argument that there are too many blunts in the air force. There is some top level war dodging that goes on...the usual amount of bad backs,knees etc but its not limited to the ground trades. As a truckie mate I happen to be plucked from the cast of 1 when my A Cat leader developed "headaches" just before GW2. He went on to become the standards man and so ensured another 3 years of war dodging.

I believe in Karma, so I hope the headaches were real.

5d2d

[NURSE]

in the run up to the invasion of Iraq some of my regular counterparts were criticising the number of reservists who were going to chilwell to be mobilised and being turned down as not being medically or dentally fit to deploy. And how this was disgraceful. I pointed them in the direction of the garrison med centre to see the numbers of Regulars trying to get their medical downgradings adjusted so they couldn't go. I know that alot of the reservists were gutted at being turned down.

[andyy]

Widger, You really are very rude and aggressive, aren't you? I admitted that my original post was trite but personal insults are not required and don't give a very good impression of yourself. Attack the post, by all means, but not the poster. How does being rude add anything? Its very easy to snipe in a forum but we still have not heard YOUR ideas.

And seeing as you were getting personal, for info I am not an ex WE rating & have served very happily at Dartmouth, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Culdrose, Yeovilton, the usual Sea Appointments and several Joint Appointments. I have also worked in the Defence industry for a number of years and experienced the delay, expense and inefficiency of the contracting/ procurement system. I don't consider I have a chip on my shoulder about any of the Naval Bases. However, the fleet is getting smaller and 3 Naval bases are not required for the number of vessels in service now or in the future. The Naval Base study as long ago as 1999/2000 did recognise that & actually recommended the closure of Portsmouth but other (political) factors came in to play. The fleet is now smaller than it was then, and forecast to get smaller. Whether Portsmouth or Devonport stays open is immaterial really, but one should have closed and I suggested that should be Portsmouth simply because Devonport already has the FOST areas and the refit/ support capabilities for all RN vessels that Portsmouth does not.

As for Dartmouth, the income gained does not cover its costs. That income is likely to continue if the training carried out was also transferred.

Smart Acquisition has been criticised on several occasions by some very experienced people in the NAO and on the Commons Defence Select Committee. I don't think its a great example of how to run things. In particular bidding for contracts is hugely expensive and bureaucratic & those bid costs just go back on the MoD's bill. A typical PFI will cost over £1M to the contractor to bid & the costs to the MoD are equally massive. In many cases the transfer of risk to the Contractor has also not actually been achieved.

I do realize that several Air bases are about to close, what I am suggesting is that more needs to be done. No, its not ideal & I appreciate that real estate is important but the Defence budget is under pressure to achieve more with less (or the same), so how do we do that? Unpalatable decisions have been made in the past (axing of the RNs Diesel Boats and SHAR, amalgamation of several Regiments, loss of the Jaguar etc etc) but it may be time for some more unpalatable decisions to be made and for some capabilities to be axed.

No one expects a full blown defence review here but what are your ideas for juggling the lack of money with the commitments. What unpalatable decisions do you recommend as being least bad? Headlines will do but no rude answers please. As for Rum Ration, I don’t post on there; in some respects I would suggest that it’s a forum that is more suitable to the rude and aggressive…..like yourself.

[blandy1]

Close RAF Cranwell and move RAF officer training to Dartmouth. (The Navy still need access to the sea, this is not a bias either way).

Some genuine Joint services identy and co-operation might even emerge - not the p****ing session we have today.

Grenade duly chucked under table.... standing well back!!:cool:

[Maxtor epson]

Grenade duly chucked under table.... standing well back!!

Why? Nothing appears to have happened.:rolleyes:

[Widger]

http://www.angelfire.com/home/lake/images/manboat.gif

[jim2673]

1.Go back to having Sqdn Ldrs/Lt cdrs as CO's of Squadrons.....Why do we need Wing Cdrs/Cdrs as Sqdn Commanding Officers.
2. Chop CEA....if you have not been moved out of area in the last 4 years
3. Chop specialist pay by 50% or move onto task payment basis.
4. Close either Plymouth or Portsmouth Naval Base.
5. Chop SWO/EWO/BWO jobs
6.Do we need more AEO's than Helos?
7. Get shot of JPA Ministers bury £32bn tax crisis as recess starts - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6721120.ece)
8. Revert to pay rates as was Pre pay 2000...re introduce Tiff / ET pay.
9.

[Flyt3est]

I have to say, I find all the "Scrap A400M" (buy American?) and "More UAV's" (American?) and other such remarks amusing..

You see chaps, Westland may well be useless, Airbus / EADS could be seen as the biggest cash drain in history, and BAe systems may just make your blood boil, however..

One day, as I did, you will leave Her Majesty's Service and seek gainful employment in civvy industry, then you may realise the importance of our primes, and the value they create for the millions of businesses in the supply chain. Your military pensions and green tinted view of the world will change, I assure you.

Now lets have no more of this "Scrap everything and buy yank kit off the shelf" claptrap. Instead of whining like big cissies, I think we ought to be thankful that finally the brass have backed old Gordon the Gopher into a corner from which there is no escape, and hopefully the momentum we have will see decent levels of resource, not just helicopters, where it ought to be.. with the boys!

Call me racist or whatever else, but the first politician who stops immigration , slashes welfare for the great unwashed and unwilling, and channels funds towards equipping the boys in a decent fashion will have my vote in an instant.

MP Expenses, Car industry bailouts, Bank bailouts, welfare state, immigration and an excessive civil service are all a shameful reflection of President Tony and Gordon the Goofer.:mad:

[Had Enough 77]

Personnally I would go on a 60year tour of the globe but that is just me being selfish!:)

Seriously though, should we not look at areas where we can buy off the shelf and build under licence in the UK adding value where we can like the israeli's do?

I think (my 2 pence worth) scrap the Nimrod force and replace with a couple of P-8's and BAMS global Hawks. Use the MRA4 test aircraft to replace the one's at Waddo.

Buy a few more reapers with cost savings from the above if any?

Scrap the flt ops branch and some admin functions that could be and use aircrew to do the ops role like it used to be. Also outsource the procurement function to private consultancy with selcted MOD input instead of the huge amount of people working in DPA/DPO or whatever it is called now.

At the same time have a independant review of the rank structure and have the recommendations implemented outside the MOD (prob never going to happen, they like their gold braid too much!) This could then lead to sensible redundancies and thinning at the top,.

I would also suggest a review of the medical and dental arrangements to try and get a cheaper outsourced service in places such as London where it must cost a fortune.

A complete review of the bases and also support areas with the idea of more closures than are currently on the cards. ( I don't like the idea of putting all the eggs in one basket but the cash situation dictates this)

We might also want to scap the puma fleet and use some money from other savings to acquire and train a new force on blackhawks built under licence in the UK. This would maybe lead to long term cost savings than running with an old aircraft.

I think a review of all weapon procuremnts over the next five years would be a good idea as well as in the short term I don't think meteor and similar items are a priority?

Anyway, that is my ideas please feel free to rip apart! (Putting helmet on for incoming)

P.S I do think that is it very sad that we have come to this point :(

[Flyt3est]

Well you get my vote HE 77 old boy!:ok: Value added for the UK, thats what we like.

[dctyke]

A small saving: Why don't we combine our 3 Airman Recruit training set-ups into one. We currently have recruit training for Airman Aircrew, RAF Regt and the 'the rest' at separate locations. When I was involved 10yrs ago it always irked me that they used an identical syllabus of training.

A bit of history: Up till the demise of the SLR rifle the RAF Regt were put through recruit training with other ground trades. As the RAF Regt got the new L85 rifle up to two years before everyone else it was rightly deemed necessary to not go through recruit training with the SLR then switch to the L85 for trade training so they subsequently switched their recruit training to the Regt depot. However when everyone else got the L85 they never switched back.

[Had Enough 77]

Deliverance

In response to your response, how about this?

Current amraam is good enough, i did not say scrap bvraam it but revert back to the program when more appropriate as we need the money for other operational needs.

As for the MR2, speaking from experience, the global hawk/reaper combination would be more useful and have a longer time on station due to the lack of aar (even with AAR they can stay longerthan the Rod). The MR2 is falling to bits and has a poor serviceabiltiy compared to the serviceabiltiy of UAV's. The global hawk is also a very good platform for the BAMS role backed up by a small force of P-8 bought off the shelf from the US. The MRA4 has no export abilty (profit) and has some major problems that are sucking an exceptional amount of cash into a large black hole, even at this late stage.

Don't think I mentioned the type 45 but as you ask I feel the current numbers should be kept especially if the carriers are completed or else they would be at risk every time they put to see without proper AD cover!

I dont think I mentioned navy merlins either but again as you ask they should be kept in the role they are doing (in case the russkies bring those pesky subs down again!) and as I suggested the PUMA fleet scrapped and replaced with blackhawks/chinooks or the like.

As for the E3 I think you will find that that has been used quite a bit in the past few years around the UK and I am quite happy to keep them as they are a force multiplier and tend to be good to have around when the ruskies come bounding down from the frozen wastelands of the north (again poosible future war.)

One point I forgot to add was around certain types of training where it seems to be expected/high % to fail first time e.g FC, RAF reg etc. I think these courses should be redesigned to achieve a higher first time pass rate as repeating the whole course would be more costly.

I hope this helps your confusion.:ok: I would certainly apprecaite others views on this as well.....

[Finnpog]

Scary option - seems decidedly 'purple' & Defence Force based
but...

...the major savings from personnel (other than cuts in numbers or pay cuts) can only come from homogenising the 3 Services into one and then have core military basic training being completed at 1 major location rather than the 4 (or is that 6 with RAF additionality) currently used - and then have trade training also include branch of service training.

The same could be done with Officer training.

'Royal' has had it right in having Lympstone for the last 30+ years training all ranks in one location (and Deal before that IIRC). Particularly forward looking IMO.

Don't get me wrong - it is an absolute disgrace that the economic state and the wilful incompetence and neglect of the 'political class' has brought this to a head.

Politicians should have previous experience outside of politics before thay are ever allowed to stand for election - and I don't mean working for a party, being a researcher, or some token Civil Serpent job to fluff out their CVs.

[andyy]

The Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Philip Hammond, was on the Radio last night and stated that:

a. There would have to be cut backs in all public sector spending

b. The UK military in Afghanistan should get the additional equipment they needed to carry out the war

c. a & b mean that there would be other sectors of the defence budget that would have to be cut to pay for the Afghanistan campaign and the "defence share" of the overall public sector pain & grief.

OK, so what non Afghanistan related areas of the Defence Budget do we think will be cut?

[Not_a_boffin]

Ideally all the equality, diversity and other such b0ll0cks post, but not holding my breath........

[VinRouge]

Ped Flight.

[Gainesy]

Probably not a big saving but why do the pongos need a different uniform/ funny hat/badge/buttons for each Regiment?

[Widger]

Oh my god...please let it stop:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: Andyy I apologise for my earlier rudeness but for crying out loud, just look at your original post and all those since, that is the context of my comments. Utter un-informed drivel. Lots of armchair staffies giving us all the benefit of their experience and wisdom. I thought Jackonory was bad enough but at least his arguments, are backed up with some form of research and logic!

I know that this is a "public" forum and people can post pretty much what they like but, please, have a word with yourselves!

[NURSE]

Some savings. Why not put RAF regt training to the infantry training centre at catterick? With an airfield defence wing for their specialised training.

The argument to replace Nimrod with P8 would cost more money than fielding Nimrod.
Does Tac transport wing need to be RAF or could the RLC not provide it with suitable training?

[Data-Lynx]

HQAC, or whatever, has produced a little handbook calledAm I a Good Engineer Officer: A Guide for Self-Assessment at Frequent Intervals.
This is a second edition. The first docket was produced by the Air Ministry in 1947 (http://www.minerva-society.org.uk/frontpage/newsletters/news2009_files/AM_Pamphlet_1947.pdf). Chapter 1 - Military Commander, asks: Do I appreciate that my job essentially is to deliver hard military output?
Para 2 and 2c are gems: 2. The spirit and intention of all engineering rules and regulations is to support the delivery of military output, not to create or maintain a technicians' 'empire'. To achieve this, the Engineer Officer must: ...

2c. Generate that capability with the greatest possible economy in resource, whilst understanding the operational imperative has precedence. Cheap effect that cannot meet its military task is no effect at all.

As a Colonel, Erwin Rommel considered that The British write some of the best doctrine in the world. It is fortunate that their officers do not read it!
Seems that might be true today. Do the RN and the Army offer similar advice?

[Grimweasel]

Looks like even the USAF is now looking for similar cost efficiencies - seems the F-22 may be a bit of a white elephant for the current War too (a la Typhoon)

New Low Cost Fighter Aircraft for USAF: Armed Forces News (http://www.armedforces-int.com/news/2009/08/12/new-fighter-aircraft-for-usaf.asp)

[Modern Elmo]

Weasel, I think that magazine piece must have armed turboprop trainers for COIN operations in mind, not actual f-something airplanes, lightweight or otherwise.

[Yeoman_dai]

I'm not qualified or in posession of enough facts to make any kind of informed decision about this... and unless we have a few current serving Brigadiers/Commodores knocking about nobody else is, really....

However, I noticed above someone suggesting moving IOT to Raleigh? Frankly, that is a ridiculous idea, and is completely wrong. All initial officer training is not like initial recruit training, for any service simply because YO's need a bigger knowledge base. What ratings need to include strategic studies and defense writing in their militarisation phases? hmm? Do they need to get their European Driving License? Know Rule of the Road?

Same goes for any of the services, it just isn't possible or right.


Therefore, you need to differentiate between them, and Britannia has a history going back hundreds of years, and in the general scheme of things costs penuts to run. Looking in the wrong direction entirely old chap.


(Why all three services couldn't amalgamate the selection procedure - (AOSB/AIB/OASC) I don't know.

[knocker88]

I think we need more Fast jets, Trident, comfy chairs in MOD, massive Civil Servant pensions and compensation schemes for when they strain an ear.
Now to get this I think we should cut back on the Copter budget, stop these "unfair" payouts to young men who are wounded in Afghan!! Cut back on Defense Housing. Now come on who is with me?

I know a couple of "men" who think this is a great idea - Big Bad Bob A!! and Party leader brown.......

NB - This is a joke and would never happen....

[Yeoman_dai]

'would never happen...'


HA! We hope...:ok:


NB: UK PLC is quite capable of funding a large Army (150 000) Navy (at least 50 warships FFS) and Airforce (significant whizzy stuff, big stuff and whirly stuff), we should not even be asking this question - what we SHOULD be asking is how we can fight the trend and get funding back up to what it should be at - IMHO, somewhere around the 1960's spend.

People say we're broke, theres no more money, well no, there isn't, but that is a symptom of where we are putting the money we have (and in all fairness compared to most of the rest of the world, we have an awful lot)

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

Britannia has a history going back hundreds of years, and in the general scheme of things costs penuts to run

I take it you are a serving Naval Officer who has an intimate knowledge of the costs to run the College? If so perhaps you could share it with us.

IMHO, somewhere around the 1960's spend

????? So you want to spend an average of 2/3 billion on defence per year as opposed to 35/40 billion?

[Yeoman_dai]

About as much as it takes to run a T42 for a year, if you must know.

Ok, you got me, I wasn't specific. I apologise.

What I SHOULD have said, was around the level of % of GDP, that it was in the 1960's - so around 6% as opposed to 2.5% currently.

There you go.

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

About as much as it takes to run a T42 for a year, if you must know.

And how much is that precisely. What is your source for this information? What are your thoughts on the Healey Review? Do you think that it has a familiar tone to todays Armed Forces?

[A and C]

As interested observer I have seen outside contractors who fail to deliver value for money and seem to get away with this because the "military" staff seem to think that they have no control over these contractors.

I would think that each military base should have a business manager who is under the direct control of the local military command, these managers must have real civlian business track record (ie NOT from the civil service).

The role of this manager would be to over see the day to day working of contractors and local services to the military.

Very few people in the military have a business background (why should they) and are usualy poor businessmen so get someone in who can look after the militarys interest and let the military get on with job it is trained to do.

I hate the idea of another "blunty" draining the budget but I feel that if contractors had a "real" business person overseeing them it would save money in the long run, the only problem would be what your political masters do with the money that was saved?

[Yeoman_dai]

Ah ha, mentioning the Healy report - you disagree that the UK can afford the cost, and that we really are broke? Well, I guess you have a fair point in the current situation, but that's your belief. I'd view that the most distressing aspect of the whole situation is that even in a period of sustained growth, the defense budget was still skimmed time after time.

Reference BRNC costs, well Andym has messaged me and we've had a bit of a discussion and I can see good reasons for moving it to Raleigh that I havn't been aware of - a Lympstone for the RN. I would still resist such a change but more because i'm a sucker for tradition and, as i've mentioned we can afford the extra £20 million a year - 1/3rd of a Typhoon, the same we give in aid to Ethiopia, the same the Welsh assembly spends to re-invigorate its south western coastal belt, and £8 million less than it takes to run Sandhurst. Not to mention how much more than £20m is wasted on defense procurement decisions. I'd argue still that if you want to find savings (not that we need to) then there are better ways to find it than moving BRNC's duties lock stock to Raleigh. The UK made $2.13 trillion last year. Within that I really believe that we can find the £20m to run a seperate Naval Academy.

[Squirrel 41]

More thought-provoking stuff from The Economist (aka house journal of HM Treasury).

The politics of defence | The thinning red line | Economist.com (http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=14228637)

[Yeoman_dai]

Interesting article. I wonder who came up with the idea of paying soldiers even less than planned - do they WANT to decrease retention rates, even in a recession?

[knocker88]

You watch - Flying pay is next on the chopping board!!!!!

[gayn kakken ofn yam]

i'm a sucker for tradition

I am sure you are at 22.

Ah ha, mentioning the Healy report


You have no idea what I am on about do you?

well Andym has messaged me


Who is andym? Am I supposed to know him?

[Yeoman_dai]

Well yes I am, no it seems I don't know the specific report you're alluding to, and you should he was who I replied to in the first place?

Check PM's, this has nothing to do with the thread anymore?

[Squirrel 41]

Not sure about flying pay - but how much is boarding school allowance costing? At a time when we can't find £100m to refurb the 3 MRA4 prototypes to the active fleet, then it looks like a luxury....

S41