CPL Test Examiner

[CharlieSierra]

An observation; my CPL examiner wouldn't test his brakes and had to be asked twice to confirm his door and seatbelt were secure.

Having read other peoples comments, irrespective of what is and is not part of the test and who is responsible for what, I remain of the view that the sensible thing to do is to check both sets of brakes, seatbelts & doors, purely from a safety point of view if nothing else.

[redout]

Sounds as though his headset was faulty perhaps.

A few loose wires maybe :)

[Vulcan607]

Interesting regarding asking the examiner to check brakes.....

I did my IR first in a seneca before the CPL, and the instructor I had initially always wanted to check her side for the brake function before we taxiied further.

I then changed instructors half way thru my IR and then I asked the new instructor on the 1st flight if he wished to check his brakes and he looked at me as if I was mad......

So I spoke with an examiner about this just to find out what he prefers, and his response was what you do your CPL or your I.R/MEP in is a single pilot ops aeroplane.........on a typical commercial flight in a PA-28 or PA-34 say.....are you really going to turn round and offer your passengers control and ask them to check their brakes???

.......Point taken I thought.

Everyone has their preferences I suppose :ok:

[BigGrecian]

Are you also going to trust your passenger to shut the door or wear his seatbelt? I wouldn't.


I wouldn't call it unprofessional - hopefully it made you realise it's your responsibility as the PIC, no one elses!


Also maybe he just wanted to make sure you were cleared no one wants that gut wrenching feeling and a possible runway incursion.

[Mordacai]

So...did you pass?

If not, did the debrief clear it up?

Was it a poorly conducted test?

If so you have the right to appeal against the conduct of the test.

Maybe do somthing more positive about it than moan about it on Pprune...??

[redout]

Vulcan607

All I can say is that the examiner whom you spoke was being very irresponsible giving you such an answer. If it had been myself then I would have promptly reminded him that this was an exam and not a fare paying flight even though it is simulating one and I would very much like to make sure that his brakes are in proper working order should the need arise. Sounds very irresponsible not to check. My examiner on the IR checked his when asked no look of shock or qualms.

[Piltdown Man]

Brakes? What are they for? And I'd be inclined to pay no more than lip service to the "Is your door locked?" and "Is your harness fastened?" Ask by all means and expect a reply. But if one was not forthcoming, I wouldn't push it. Am I gash? Probably, but I didn't annoy the guy before I got onto the runway on my test.

PM

[BigGrecian]

Piltdown Man - that's a guaranteed way of failing your test.

You are the Pilot in Command and are responsible for ensuring your passenger is strapped in and the door is shut!

Failure to do so shows a clear misunderstanding of the whole concept of being a Professional pilot bearing in mind it is simulating the single pilot operation in such an aircraft.

With regards to brakes - I don't see why the examiner would check them - you are legally allowed to operate it as pilot in command and act as so during the test - they are there as supernumerary - so it's pretty common for them to not check their brakes.

[clanger32]

hummm.
Big Grecian,
I kinda agree with you, that the examiner is there to be treated as a "knowledgable passenger" - as my examiners put it.

But they're not *just* that though, are they? By the very nature of the fact you're raking a flight test, one can call into question (before the onset of the flight) your capability or otherwise to control the aircraft in a safe and efficient manner - and therefore the examiner is also there to act as a safety pilot; to take control of the aircraft and ensure it returns safely if the student is incapable of doing so.

On that basis, I would say it's bloody irresponsible of the examiner to not test their own ability to bring the a/c to a rest?

However, do agree that the flight(s - if we include IR and CPL) should be conducted as SPA.

One more thought though....if I were genuinely flying someone SPA in a Seneca, I wouldn't be offering them the front seat, unless they could be trusted to do things like "shut the door", "test your brakes"....

[Brian304]

Well conducting a CPL test is about safety and being within the limits set out. Closing the door and ensuring belts are fastened is a dilema of safety, but considering that it is a COMMERCIAL pilots license, do you think when were all sitting on our boeings or airbus aircrafts that were going to go out and check each passenger and door before we go flying?, well if we did we would probably be about 2 hours late for departure. Though we do get a call from the cabin, advising "captain, cabin is secure", same thing goes while doing a flight test, ok ask the examiner if he is secure and door is closed, but also "LOOK" use your eyes, thats what there for, if he's sat tight and door looks closed, just expect a call from them, but make sure that it is closed and locked, afterall you are PIC.

Hope this helps:ok:

[Mordacai]

For anyone that is reading this and about to take their CPL skills test, the best time to clear this up is during the initial briefing.

Mr Examiner, will you require a brake check?

In my experience most say no because your 'passenger' does not know how.

Charger32, I would agree with you if it were a PPL test we were talking about, but at the CPL test level the 'student' is not really a student, but a properly qualified and licenced pilot. Therefore if he/she can't operate the a/c as you suggest, they should not only fail the CPL test, but have their PPL revoked as well!!

For the record, I do test brakes when giving CPL instruction, but if it's a 'mock test profile' a la 170a, I don't.

[clanger32]

Mordacai,
As stated, I kind of agree - but not wholly. For example, anyone on an integrated course is NOT necessarily licenced, at all, in any way, by the time they take their CPL...although you would admittedly hope their school would't put them forward for a test if they were that bad!

It's a bit of a weird one...because I definitely see - and back - the logic that the student is in charge and should run it as though the examiner knows nothing...but then, being slightly less contentious - after all the student is under immense pressure, what happens if there's a serious pilot incapacitation issue? What happens if there's an aircraft failure that's beyond the expected capacity of a student at that level (and admittedly, I can't think of a good example!)....but the point is there's definitely scope for the examiner HAVING to take control to safely conclude the flight.

Seems just daft to me to not do a brake check, but then - I'm not an examiner. It just doesn't seem to me that it reflects in any way on the pilots capablitity whether or not the examiner checks brakes or not!

I do fully agree however, that the time to check is in the pre flight briefing!
Perhaps overall it's one that the national aviation authorities should remove any doubt about, by stating what the expectation is in the test description and notes for students/examiners....

[BigGrecian]

What happens if there's an aircraft failure that's beyond the expected capacity of a student at that level

In theory there shouldn't be such a thing. They're are or are about to me licensed on said class, and hold a document which states they are ready for this (170). So they should be able to handle any situation safely (notice I never set correctly)

Real emergencies are meant to be handled by the applicant in the test.
In fact one applicant I know had a partial engine failure and had to do a precautionary landing at the nearest airfield.

If the applicant does not handle the emergency appropriately - they will have failed that section of the test. Cue the projection well I would have passed the test if the emergency hadn't occured - but it comes down to you have to be able to prove you can handle these situations - and you couldn't.

[clanger32]

BG, As said - I do agree that the student should be capable of handling any emergency by the point they're taking a CPL or IR skills test.

I just can't get past the fact though that there may well be a need - let's talk about student incapacitation - for the examiner to take control. We're taught through theory that accidents and incidents rarely occur due to a single factor.....is this not a prime example where the swiss cheese holes could line up? Moreover, realistically what does the examiner NOT checking their brakes prove that's of benefit to the test?

It just seems to me that there's potential downside if it all goes Pete Tong but it proves no greater capability on behalf of the student if they're not checked.

All of which is of course caveated that I speak from perspective of having taken and passed the tests, but never having moderated one.

[Keygrip]

Clanger - imagine a test candidate who has been waiting for a test for over a week due bad weather, has the I/R course booked to start next Monday, is rapidly running out of money as they pay an extra however many pounds or dollars on hotels/rental cars/food away.

Imagine a candidate who has managed to get three weeks off work and not a day longer or they will be dismissed.

Imagine a candidate who has a last chance airline ticket from wherever the flight school is back to home/family/work...whatever.

If the good cheese holes all line up and allow them to do the flight test. Not a breath of wind. CAVOK day. Aircraft booked in for maintenance later in the afternoon - will ground it for the next three days.

Candidate checks brakes and they work. Perfect for single crew operations.

Examiner checks brakes and they don't work.........go or don't go?

As for integrated courses - the "progress test" is done by an in-house examiner who knows that the student will have further training before the course ends, the school has areputation to keep, and nobody really monitors anyway - so some will be allowed to go through on the understanding that they will be OK by the time they go to the CAA.

The CAA also say that the progress test is not a licensing skill test as the candidate receives no licence upon successful completion of that particular test...........which is, of course, a load of horse poo - but that's how the CAA work.

[Bealzebub]

The examiner is there to examine your ability and performance and to either pass, partially pass, or fail you based on his determination of your demonstrated ability and performance. They do not have to check anything that isn't otherwise a statutory requirement. It is up to you to test the brakes. It is up to you to ensure all the exits are secure and it is up to you to ensure the seatbelts are fastened. There is of course nothing wrong with asking him for confirmation and particularly where he may be obstructing your ability to make that determination yourself.

When training it would be perfectly normal for both you and your instructor to test your brakes. He or she would want to make sure they are working normally and would need to impress on you the same requirement. On an airliner the pilot taxiing (often the captain as steering is sometimes restricted to that side,) will check the brakes, but there is rarely a requirement for both pilots to do so. In any event the examiner doesn't need to. If you have any doubt in this regard, ask at the pre-flight briefing.

For £762 I thought maybe the CAA would provide an aviation professional for the examinations, maybe not.

Clearly they did! In fact it is worth remembering that given the nature of the test, he was the only "aviation professional" there. You are aspiring to be one, and notwithstanding the pressure you would be experiencing your focus should be on your performance rather than his. As somebody has already mentioned if you feel the test was improperly conducted then you can lodge an appeal or complaint with the authority. However anybody considering doing so should clarify the regulatory and statutory requirements that the examiner is charged with, before submitting such a complaint.