Am I too old - Aussie focus

[The_Pharoah]

hi all

before you ask/point out - yes I've read the perpetual 'am I too old' thread thats in another forum, but I find that this is focused on the UK which doesn't help me, hence I'm doing one here based on where we are (June 2009, not a thread 10 years old). Ok, putting aside the global financial crisis (or "GFC" as people like to refer to it) which is key, I'm pretty much at a point where I need to decide NOW if I want to change careers to learn to fly. All going well, I should have a CPL + ME/CIR next Dec which, I'm hoping, will allow sufficient time for the global economy (and esp the Aussie economy) to improve.

Anyway, my question is - is there any hope for me to make it to the RHS of a jet? I'm looking for feedback from aussie based pilots who have done something similar and esp the attitudes of local airlines. I've read enough on these forums to know its a hard road (for even a 21 y/o) to get up enough hours, etc but I'm definitely committed and my goal is ultimately the LHS of a jet (its a goal).

Please be direct with your responses be it +ve or -ve.

Thanks

[The Green Goblin]

You're never too old mate, although you may have to be content with the left seat of a regional rather than a Jet or a regional Jet.

Like anything, if you persist long enough and sacrifice enough you'll get there. Just be prepared to live a miserable existence for at least the first 3 years :ok:

[Darkrampage]

Mate your never too old. I'm currently learning along side a guy who is in his early fifties and is aiming to get CPL/CIR etc. Just put in the effort and you will get there without an issue :ok:

[The_Pharoah]

Green Goblin

Its comments like yours that I'm keen to find out more on. :)

[BubbaMc]

33 isn't too old.

Why not have a crack at the Cathay cadetship? Older people than you have got in :ok:

[neville_nobody]

Yes you are never to old however your ability to learn does decrease with age. You are certainly young enough to make it into a jet.

Are you prepared to sacrifice everything just to get into a jet? If you have wife and kids I would suggest the whole GA scene would be somewhat difficult unless you are independently wealthy already.

[purplemonkydishwashr]

Hi Pharoah.

If you've got the patience and fortitude to survive quite a few years in GA and in the lower eschelons of the airline world, then there is nothing to say that you cant get a jet job.
Personally, I got my CPL at 30, did some time in GA, moved to a 19seat turboprop job, then to ATR's for 2 years and then a job flying heavies (2nd officer) for Air NZ at age 37.
Some airlines are finding a problem of having hired similarly aged recruits (ie 25 -30) way in the past, and are now beginning to encounter a problem with all these guys approaching retirement at the same time, therefore causing recruitment stresses (when all this current economic s@#t settles). One method to avoid this in future is to recruit guys and girls of all ages, with an understanding that some may never achieve a widebody command, but can still have a rewarding career with the airline. My employer in the last couple of years has hired in the age range of 23 - 50.
I believe that you're training at a great time. All this rubbish will settle in a year or two, and you'll be well poised.

[The Green Goblin]

Green Goblin

Its comments like yours that I'm keen to find out more on.

Lets have a look at the financial side you can expect:

Year 1

You'll be flying singles charter or flight instructing. Charter expect about 33k driving a 210 if they pay award, or casual hourly rates as a grade 3 flight instructor.

Year 2/3

If you went the charter route you'll have 1000 hours now and be looking for multi engine work and a pay check of 42K if they require you to fly with a MECIR. If you went the instructing route you will be a grade 2 doing your 1 year before being able to upgrade to a grade 1. Multi engine work will be a while off yet, but you're enjoying wearing 2/3 stripes and feeling important in the flying school. A year as a Grade 1 and you be on over 50k looking for a META and clocking some ME time.

Year 3/4

The charter guys will now be looking at turboprop FO slots and the Flight instructor will be happy logging time in a light twin doing advanced training, or possibly a charter IFR job themselves. Expect around 55k as a FO on a Braz/Metro/Dash etc and perhaps a little more if your a Grade 1 with META, although you don't really want piston multi engine time anymore.

Year 4/5

The FO's are now getting commands, they have ATPL requirements and the instructor finally took a paycut to get into a regional as an FO or got lucky and went to an airline. Expect 75-80k as a skipper on a regional or upwards of this on a jet.

Year 5+

You could live quite comfortably on 75-80k as a regional Skipper, you will never drive a Porshe or an M3 if you have a wife and Kids, but you'll have a good lifestyle and be home every night and have a happy Mrs. Or you could get into Airline flying, be away from home for long periods, cheat on your Mrs, suffer Aviation Induced Divorce a couple of times, your airline goes broke, you become redundant and end up living in a ****ehole in the middle east contract flying because a regional turboprop operator won't hire you as they think you'll piss off at the first glimpse of a jet job. You'll retire with lots of money have a Porshe and an M3 and many other expensive toys in the garage that you bought to fill the empty void. Your daughter will have daddy issues working the pole at the local strip joint. Your son knocked his Mrs up when they were 18 and thinks you're the devil and you want to punch your ex wifes new husband who looks like Kevin Rudd. Your Phillipino mail order bride is good in the sack but you get annoyed at the funny looks at the supermarket and deep down you know she'll piss off as soon as you've been married for 3 years.

However you still love flying and are having the time of you life :}

That enough for you?? :ok:

[Top_Cat]

So what's the bad news?

[The_Pharoah]

lol thanks Goblin...exactly what I wanted! :ok:

[Mr. Hat]

The_Pharoah - all of the above plus :

Add a few more years on to it. Things might not always go a planned. Eg you might only get 500 hrs in the first 18 months ect.

Hey you might get lucky like some I know that did a grand total of 18 months in ga to RHS of a 737. Or it could take the best part of ten years. Right time right place, contacts and a good work ethic are all the ingredients to a quick route to a jet job. For me I had all except right place at right time on quite a few occasions and thus it took me longer. But in the end i got there. Wouldn't worry about the age thing.

[206greaser]

Hey Green Goblin nice post! I like the way that career looks, err except for the last few years! It takes time to write a post like that, and i appreciated reading it.

As to the "are you to old bit?" Aviation is one of those weird industries where there seems to be no hard and fast rules to progression. It seems to be a combination of who you know, and right place, right time.

Cheers,
Greaser

[Jazzy78910]

Out of curiousity, what is the OPTIMAL age to be entering a job on the heavy metal? Is there really such a thing? All I keep hearing is that pilot's backgrounds and ages are as varied and random as you could imagine. The key word I keep hearing is perseverance.

For the record Pharoah, I am 27 and just completing my GFPT, so not that much younger than yourself. Go for it!

[Gearupandorrf]

G'day Pharoah!

I'm in exacltly the same position as you- except that I'm 35 and a few weeks off the end of my CPL (so you'll be at the same age by the time you're finishing up too).

I've been given the same advice from people that I know working in the Industry- don't sweat it. For guys like us, the LHS of a QF B747-400 or A380 may not be on the cards......but that's OK. As for me- I simply want to get to the point where I can tell myself that I'm going to work to do something that I really enjoy, and that this is what I chose to do. I feel sorry for those who just "fall" into a job or career and hate what they do. So whether I wind up at the end of my career in the LHS of a 747 or a Dash 8, is not something that concerns me too greatly. That's not to say though that opportunities should be seized upon if it will help you progress. At the end of the day, if I can provide my future Family with a decent existence whilst doing something that I WANT to do- then I'll be a more than happy bloke.

When approaching the likes of Qantas in an interview, you may have to get over the hurdle of a Pshych/ HR person grilling you as to why it took you so long to get to that point with your Flying career. Make sure that:
1. You can demonstrate some decent acheivements personally and professionally that can explain away the extra years compared to some other applicants and;
2. Have a very clear and concise answer prepared as to what your motivations are for wanting to fly for a living, and for flying for QF/ VB or whoever the case may be. It's possible that the perception will be that you're not dedicated to further your career.

For me personally, I've spent those extra years getting my Home paid off (demonstrating a sense of responsibility and common sense), plus setting up and running my own business. I definitely don't see those things as a waste of time, and has allowed me the financial freedom to train most of the week without worrying about money. Also- very importantly- it gives me the ability to be able to earn $33K a year during that first year or two without any problems- plus I'll still have my business ticking over as well. Because we own our Home, we can rent it out if I need to move to where the work is for a while.

Feedback that I've received seems to indicate that some years and possibly a few grey hairs around the Temples may actually HELP you in getting that first job (whether it be Charter or Instructing). The perceived wisdom is that operators like to take on more mature guys for various reasons. This may include life experience/ common sense/ work ethic/ stability/ reliability etc etc.

Also, once this GFC/ recession blows over, operators here in Australia are going to find themselves short of Pilots once again (to all readers: NO- I don't have any affiliations with any Flying Schools!). The current economic situation has only served to place a temporary Band Aid on the lack of Australians who are training to fly for a living. I don't have the stats on hand, but the number of professional Flying qualifications being issued by CASA have been dropping year- on- year for most of this decade. Just take a look around Moorabbin/ Bankstown or the Exam Room when you're sitting some ATPL's, and you'll see what I mean. For example, the number of current Grade 3 Instructors has shrunk dramatically in the last 5 years by more than half.

So here's the plan that I'm following:
1. Get the CPL, ATPL subjects and MECIR or Instructors Rating (me) done now.
2. Get your life/ finances set up so that living on low wages for a year or two won't break you.
3. Be agressive in chasing that twin or IR work when it looks like things are starting to pick up.
4. Be riding the wave when everyone starts recruiting again.
BECAUSE- if you miss the next wave- then age really MIGHT start to become a real barrier.

I wish you the absolute best of luck with it all- it's never easy even in the good times (so I've heard)!

Regards,
Gearup.

[The_Pharoah]

thanks Gearup

thats gotta be one of the best damn posts I've read in a long time (along with Green Goblin's 'snapshot of a pilots life' :}).

:ok:

Pharoah

[tinpis]

Get them subjects (ATPL) out the way BEFORE you start.
Plus any other bit of paper you may have to wave in someones face
Hows the health? Medium height? wiry fit? non smoking? non piss-head?

[GUARD]

Hi Pharoah,

I'm 44 and started flying at 28 after another career and stayed in that career whilst training part-time.

The Green Goblin has it all figured almost exactly and whilst funny, you have to be careful that you don't keep driving yourself towards the jet job at any cost.

I personally started out doing some multi-engine charter with my own business but it cost me a lot and didn't really take off so then got an instructor rating and ended up doing s/e charter which lead to theory instruction and eventually flying. I ended up getting my multi-engine and instrument training approval as a grade 2 which made a huge difference as every hour over 1000 was multi.

Thereafter did some multi charter. regional airline for 5-6 years and now s/o for a major carrier. In one sense I got to where I wanted to go and real proud of what I've accomplished but you will get asked in an interview about how you feel flying alongside a captain who is 10 years younger than you and whilst I always ( and still do feel ) felt that if they're more qualified than I am they'll always have my respect. Thats true but sometimes you can't help feeling that you'll be doing that training when you're 50 but thats what it is.

What I'm saying is that I worked my way up from a junior in one profession and it just feels a bit challenging as you get older because in some respects it would be nice to be at the top of your tree in your mid forties rather than looking down the barrel of another several years before you get the chance ( if ever ). With the benefit of hindsight I'd probably stay as a regional captain and enjoy that life but I wouldn't change from what I'm doing as I still get a thrill to be doing long-haul and be living that lifestyle and its enabled me to live a very different lifestyle than I would as a regional captain.

Look very carefully at every stage and if you like it maybe thats where you want to stay.

I didn't hit the majors til 42 so never give up on the dream. Every moment was a blast for me and still is.

Good luck with it all. There is some good advice in these posts especially from Green Goblin and Gear up.

GUARD:ok:

[RWD5]

good to hear this stuff thanks guys :ok:

[The_Pharoah]

yep, same. I appreciate all the comments.

btw, Tinpis I got my Class 1 medical last Dec with no problems. That was the first thing I did.

[RR RB211]

I also had a late start into this but it's been the best thing I ever did.

Gear up and Green Goblin know what they're talking about - great advice there and well done on getting the medical done first, whoever told you that did you a favour (yeah common sense isn't all that common I have found).

There will be great times, and lonely times and rewarding times and not so rewarding times. Best advice I got was to network and try to stay in touch with as many of those you meet along the way as you can. That is the only reason I am where I am. A mate rang up and said - you should apply for this scheme, so I did, got in, and here I am. Had I lost touch with him, probably would never have happened.

I started back in 2002 where the times in aviation were about as bad as they are now or maybe a smidgen better. All I wanted was the RHS in a regional turbo prop. At the time that was what was realistic.

I did benefit from the crazy times of last year so I am now in the RHS of that turbo prop and loving every minute of it. Anything else from here on in is a bonus.

Good idea to get those ATPLs done before going remote. Lots of mates had the hours but no ATPLs so missed the opportunities when they arose, but they are well placed now for an upturn.:ok:

About the "flying with a younger captain" question you may get asked. I flew with one the other day - 9 years younger than me :eek: - and it was one of the best trips yet. Learnt heaps. Heck, most of the captains are younger than me - even the checkies, but their aviation experience is extensive and I always get a flying lesson of some sort when I am with them and the line captains.

Enjoy the journey Pharaoh, it's a great one overall, you'll make some great friends and have some unique experiences. It's all about the brush strokes on the great masterpiece of life. PM me if you think I can add more.

[Krazy]

As someone else who is quickly approaching 30 and only just having a CPL - it's great to read these posts. Thanks guys for being so forthcoming with your stories - it's really encouraging!

[Di_Vosh]

G'day TP,

Green Goblin gave a great summary of a pilots working life. But as MrHat said, it may take a few years longer.

For anyone, esp. older people you have to WANT the career to make a go of it. You also have to have your partner/family on board if you want it to work.

My Opinion, it is generally harder for older people to start and have a successful flying career.

This is NOT because it's more difficult to learn when you're older. But you've got to take a very hard look at your lifestyle/family/etc. to see whether it can take the stress of relocation, lower pay, etc, for the next several years. (not to mention the up to $80k or so it may cost). As a pilot, you may NEVER make the money that you earned in your previous career!

In my case, I decided (at 38) to leave I.T. and start another career in aviation. I.T. was great money, but I was sick and tired of the hours and conditions of work, and didn't want to do it for another 25 odd years.

From my first flying lesson to the time I got a job in Qlink was around 6 1/2 years. In that time, my partner and I have had to make many sacrifices, and I'm still not quite at my ultimate goal in aviation (pilot based in Melbourne) but that shouldn't be too far off, inshallah. :ok:

I wouldn't have been able to be where I am without the support of my partner, and I don't think I'd have been able to do it if we had children.

I DEFINITELY wouldn't be where I am if I'd listened to all the naysayers along the way! I was constantly advised by so-called aviation professionals that I was "too old" and that no airline would touch me, and that I had no future in aviation.

If I had taken their advice; they'd have been right! :suspect:

I love my current job. :ok::ok: The pay isn't what I had before, but money isn't everything. The lifestyle is fantastic! (I work on average 28 hours per week). And I'm close to my aviation career goal!

DIVOSH!

[Mr. Hat]

before you ask/point out - yes I've read the perpetual 'am I too old' thread thats in another forum

Hi Ph - have you read the other threads in thisforum on the topic. There have been some good ones (2 from memory). Just another resource for you.

[The_Pharoah]

hi all

thanks again for the responses. I've been in two minds for a while, hence my post here. Unfortunately there really aren't too many people I can talk to this about if you get my meaning, and I know there would be guys in a similar boat as me. I just cracked the $160k mark at work (isn't that like B763 Capt pay?) at 32 so I'm definitely destined for financial greatness but there's nothing worse than getting up every morning to a job you hate (even if you're good at it). So thats the toss up:

1. hate job + lotsa money

or

2. love job + no money! :}

hell, I would give anything to fly Dash8s for Qlink. Sure its not quite a shiny new Airbus or Boeing but I guess I'd rather retire/die knowing I enjoyed my working life than to get to 65 wishing I had done something else.

I do have 2 kids and the FULL support of the Mrs (which I'm eternally thankful for) but yes I understand the risks and the hardship involved, esp in the beginning. *sigh* I'll probably look back at this point in maybe 10 years time and think A. I made the right decision or B. I made the wrong decision. :sad:

[Howard Hughes]

YES!

But don't let that stop you, I got my first job at 36 and haven't looked back since! Now earning around 100k per annum and not flying heavy metal...:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

hi all

thanks again for the responses. I've been in two minds for a while, hence my post here. Unfortunately there really aren't too many people I can talk to this about if you get my meaning, and I know there would be guys in a similar boat as me. I just cracked the $160k mark at work (isn't that like B763 Capt pay?) at 32 so I'm definitely destined for financial greatness but there's nothing worse than getting up every morning to a job you hate (even if you're good at it). So thats the toss up:

1. hate job + lotsa money

or

2. love job + no money!

hell, I would give anything to fly Dash8s for Qlink. Sure its not quite a shiny new Airbus or Boeing but I guess I'd rather retire/die knowing I enjoyed my working life than to get to 65 wishing I had done something else.

I do have 2 kids and the FULL support of the Mrs (which I'm eternally thankful for) but yes I understand the risks and the hardship involved, esp in the beginning. *sigh* I'll probably look back at this point in maybe 10 years time and think A. I made the right decision or B. I made the wrong decision.

If I were you I would do my CPL and a Grade 3 instructor rating. The instructor rating you will have to do full time but I'm sure you can get annual leave to do it. I would then instruct part time weekends, in the summer after work meat bomb on weekends etc until you reach the 500 total time while keeping your 6 figure income.

If you're earning 160k it sounds like you are a trained professional with Year 12 and a degree, (unless you're a bogan digging holes on a mine, in that case Jetstar will have ya :)) exactly what the big Q is after. Their minima is 500TT with a MECIR and ATPL subjects. I'd be doing that and keeping the salary until you can slot into an SO slot.

Or apply for a cadetship when it is up and running again. I'm sure you will be competitive!

keep in touch via PM when you're qualified, I have a few guy's do this and I'm sure I'll be able to or know someone who will be able to help you out when the time comes.

GG

[JCJ]

Pharoah,

Mate, I am/was in the same position except I am now 38. Late last year left a job I hated (loathed actually) paying quite well, traveling extensively around Asia, and working fairly autonomously. Spent the last two years of employment wanting out, and finally it came with the decision that it was now or never, and I have NEVER looked back, not even once!

Started training full time Dec08, and should have my ATPL theory and MECIR by years end. After my next few "apprenticeship years" in the industry, I don't have to fly the biggest an the best (although I wouldn't knock it back!!), whatever comes my way, freight, airlines, corporate whatever, that is the compromise I must have to make a career from this at this time in my life.

A jet is a definite possibility, the question is when. I believe I could be reasonably well positioned if the industry improves over the next 3-5 years, only time will tell.

Don't ever look back and wonder as it really serves no purpose, make the decision that will make you happy, and go for it with everything you can...just my 2 bits worth.

Good luck with it all

[Mr. Hat]

The_Pharoah,

I think you need to find those old threads I talked about as the people involved have a lot in common with yourself.

I also think that you don't need to make any rash decisions. Sit on your hands for a while. The industry isn't going anywhere and I can tell you that your age isn't going to be a factor in gaining employment.

I note that you talk about making a decision "NOW" and after reading your last post I have to say that I disagree with the notion of doing it now. You have a good salary and this will assist you in funding your career when (not if) it starts. I'm not aware of your personal situation but I can't see why you can't begin your licence on the weekend or during annual leave breaks. Its time to take a step back and look at things objectively. An awful lot of people don't like their jobs and a good majority of them are making 35k per annum!

As we are dealing with a very big unknown (GFC) I think it could be a massive mistake to turn your back on a good paying job at this point in time. At the moment we don't knowif VB JQ or QF are going to hire any pilots in the next 10 years. More than likely they will. However these companies are fighting for survival right now so I think that there are simply too many unknowns to be trying to time things with regard to gaining entrance to airlines.

Much like the stock market/economy the aviation industry will rebound to what it was before if not better in some areas. Before the GFC people like yourself were getting jobs with regionals such as Qantaslink as their starting point (not bad in my opinion!). This was occurring not only due to growth but due also to the fact that less and less people were/are willing to enter an industry with consistently declining conditions (the reality). So in essence a similar situation will return when the storm has passed.

In the meantime there is nothing stopping you building on you knowlege, getting your licence, building a contact base and who knows maybe getting a bit of skydive work on the weekend. Get your foundations built to make some educated decisions when the sky is clearer. A bit like doing a holding pattern while a heavy shower is over the field. The difference in the end might be 6-12 months and thats not going to be a problem.

Drop me a line if you have any questions.

Thats my take on it. Good luck.

[Aviator500]

Well said Mr Hat!
I completed my CPL over a year ago when the industry was going great guns. It actually took me 3 years to complete the CPL, just flying weekends and during annual leave. During this time I had also been pursuing my professional career outside of aviation and also hit the 6 figure salary. I think you really have to think long and hard (depending on your personal situation) as to whether you should go with the flying in the current climate. The aviation industry obviously is one industry that gets hit first in a downturn and the risks with jumping in with two feet at the moment are high. I have a child on the way and decided to 'sit on my hands', complete the ATPLs and fly weekends to keep current....and during this time continue to also grow with my existing career....so WHEN the climate improves and it WILL I can fully evaluate whether to go with the flying career or not as I will have all the prereqs apart from the experience to jump in with. If you continue with your existing career in the mean time then at least you have that as security....which for me, with a family is the most important thing....

[The_Pharoah]

Thanks Mr Hat. I did try searching and got no luck...but I realised I was searching using the wrong function ie. posts rather than threads. :}

I'll go make some coffee and start reading!

[Fantome]

Howard Hughes too old? Hardly! Many happy returns, Cock.

[Howard Hughes]

Thanks Fantome!http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/old.gif

If you need to do a search with words of three letters or less (eg: Old, Rex, etc..), use Google and add pprune.org to your search parameters!:ok:

[ollie182]

Thought i would give a story that might give anyone out there a little hope, who may think they are too old.

I'm currently doing my cpl training and have an instructor with an interesting story. He like many people was doing a **** boring job for many years, and then at the ripe age of 37, gave it all up and started his flight training. He got his first job at 39, flying charter in 206's and then went way up north to papua new guinea and flew twin otters around up there, and built heaps of hours (sounded a little crazy, but most definatly worth it).

From there he went where the work was, the uk, central europe and asia, flying some amazing aircraft and getting what I think was pretty good pay. Only about 5 years after starting he cracked his first airline job, flying jets out of sinagapore.

Basically to cut a long story short, he then got a job with Cathy and flew the 747-400 for 16 years, in the LHS for about 10 of them. He was 45 when he started at cathy!!!

So honestly, its never too late. As long as you are prepared to go where the work is, and take that step outside your comfort zone.

If you really want to be in LHS of a jet for a major airline, there is nothing stopping you, no matter how old you are.

Cheers and safe flying

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

Who is this 'Cathy'? She must be loaded if she's got a 747-400.

[norwester33]

gidday mate,I started my cpl at age 28,paid for it myself and now have my first job which is hard on my mrs and kids but Im a happy man and so are they,you only get one shot mate and I always thought you have to be young blah blah blah etc..do it now and youll get there and dont listen to any negative buggers,most of them are scared.
Best of luck on your trip.:ok::ok:

[ollie182]

haha cathy woops, obviously meant cathay, but flying for cathy might be good?

[j3pipercub]

I used to be married to a cathy, STAY AWAY, even if she does have a 747, she will steal you soooouuuulllllll :}

[Mr. Hat]

I've got a cousin called cathy - not sure if its her though. Blonde blue eyes about six foot?

[The Green Goblin]

No wonder she is a quick runner eh?

CLEARPROP :p