PDA

View Full Version : Cabair Integrated Foundation degree with CPL


ProPwannabe
24th Jun 2009, 12:17
I would like to ask you guys what suggestions or routes do you think i should do asap before the sept09 academix year starts.

I am 25 years of age, and only have 28hours of ppl study, im working full time and dont have any strong academic background. I have always thought about getting a degree. However I would also like to get a cpl and have future aspirations to become a commercial pilot. I am at a dilemma at the moment, i do not want to continue my employment and wish to start studying asap, but dont know which institutions or providers to choose from. :ugh:

the choices are:

Aviation Studies for Commercial Pilot Training - FdEng - Course Information - Undergraduate Students - Kingston University London (http://www.kingston.ac.uk/aviationstudies/) (2yrs)
This course offers a foundation degree along with a CPL.

BA (Hons) Air Transport with Pilot Training at bucks uni. (3yrs)

BSc Honours Degree in Air Transport Operations + ATPL at city university (3yrs)


FTE::Integrated course (http://www.ftejerez.com/page.php?page_name=courses_integrated)
Integrated course with FTE, this is quicker, though i would have to secure a loan over house for around £80,000, accomodation included

CTC
£69,000

Distance Learning Courses and Adult Education - The Open University (http://www.open.ac.uk)
Just continue my employment, and get a open uni degree in maths etc. and finish off the PPL (might take a while partime)

Ive been told that if i want to become a pilot, i just need to go to a good course provider like ctc, Oxford aviation or fte. others say cabair reputation sucks.. Though i have been dwelling on getting a degree.. regardless of which i choose i still get to get a loan even for the degree integrated courses, minimum of 50K+

are there anyone else in the same situation? or has taken these courses? did u enjoy it?

Hopefully i can get some good feedback, to make a well thoughtout decision asap and maybe benefit others in the same situation.

Thanks people! :ugh:

betpump5
24th Jun 2009, 12:33
Ive been told that if i want to become a pilot, i just need to go to a good course provider like ctc, Oxford aviation or fte.

Guess I'm not a pilot then :{

ProPwannabe
24th Jun 2009, 12:52
sorry what i meant was thats just one of the routes that was suggested to me :\

rriisshhii
24th Jun 2009, 13:27
ProPwannabe,

I left 6th Form last year, and applied to all of those courses you have mentioned, but withdrew my application because I chose not do to them, but thats by the by and I'll help you out by telling you what I know of the courses.

The Cabair website is misleading, and despite there being a picture of the Bucks New Uni course, subtitled with a "Cabair Integrated" logo, it is not, and neither is the course at Kingston; they're both modular. I went to the open day for both as I was seriously considering them, and if I were to choose, it would've personally been on the Kingston course, because Kingston has more of a background in engineering, so when [if] you do the top-up, you'd be learning more about the engineering side of 'flying' rather than the management side. Both unis are low down on the tables, but Kingston is relatively higher. This is my own view, and by no means reflects that of others, but I was not impressed with the Bucks New Uni course, and it's content, I even requested to attend a lecture, and was taught nothing I didn't already know about pollution. However I think you should visit both universities just to get a feel.

The City course, last year, was my first choice. But the deciding factor were the tuition fees; £9000 for the first year, and £6000 for the 3rd year (the 2nd year would be at your FTO). I did not understand the justifications in charging £15000 for tuition fees, when UK fees were £3145 last year. As a result of being charged "international fees", you are not guaranteed student loans, which put me off completely. £15000 is a massive amount of money, on top of the £60 000 which you've decided to spend on integrated.

I've decided what course to go on this year, as a result of over a year of vacillation and research, and am now just waiting on my offer. Hopefully London Met & Stapleford Flight Centre. But in retrospect, you have left it very late to be deciding this, you probably won't even be able to see the universities now as most will be coming to a close of their final term. If you want any more info on Kingston + Bucks, I've got a load of it, so just PM me.

rriisshhii

Groundloop
24th Jun 2009, 14:07
I did not understand the justifications in charging £15000 for tuition fees, when UK fees were £3145 last year.

Dear rriisshhii, City was the first university in the UK to offer a degree with an ATPL. As a result of it being so new the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE), which provides university funding, declined to make City's course "designated" which means they would not fund it. When a student pays £3145 tuition fees for a "designated" course HEFCE provides the university with another £6000 - they do not do this for the City course. Therefore students at City have to pay the full cost themselves, unfortunately.

However, when other universities starting offering courses with pilot training something in HEFCE changed and they "designated" those newer courses. However they would not change the decision on City's course.

One of the dangers of being first!

Andy_20
24th Jun 2009, 14:37
Does anyone know if it is possible to skip the first 2 year foundation degree course and just complete the top-up year at Kingston Uni if you already hold a PPL, All ATPL theory done, NVQ & BTEC L3 in Aeronautical Engineering?

Cheers :ok:

ProPwannabe
24th Jun 2009, 15:14
thanks rriisshhii for that,

I know I have left it quite late, this is because of work commitments this year and also ive been applying through cadet with airlines and have been rejected. at the selection process everyone seem to be fresh graduates with degree, and as for me well im jus a cabin crew with some industry experience.

which is why i came to the point that i must get a degree cos everyone else has got one!!! haha

i spoke to kingston university and the chances of me getting onto the course is very slim, plus i have to wait til clearing. on the other hand bucks uni, and having spoke to the course leader the chances are higher.

City university is very expensive, the cost of living in london as well as the course fees. Plus i kinda hate the london tube! :S

I know the bucks uni is quite new so it being low on the league table is not surprising, kingston on the other hand have no excuse! to kill 2 birds with 1 stone im going to opt for bucks uni, i just have to look for funding for the course to cabair and bucks uni aswell as the education.

I wish i done this 5 years ago and do have regrets but thats life!

thanks for your input

TheBeak
24th Jun 2009, 15:30
There are infinitely better ways of becoming a pilot, I get the feeling you are panicing and rushing into something. These degrees with pilot studies are possibly the WORST way of becoming a pilot in my opinion. For the last time, if you want to be a pilot train to be a pilot, if you want to get a degree then get a degree. What you would currently be getting is a useless mongrel of a thing which isn't at all respected. What are the reasons for it? Because it shows you have commitment? So that you can put BSc after your name? Pointless. Work hard in the real world, earn money, train to be a pilot modularly. Job done.

A degree is not going to be anyones saviour, not unless it is Maths, physics, medicine (not so much anymore) or something akin from a proper university. These places are nothing but businesses selling a product. They are subsidised by the government in order to make the governments education figures look better. Don't feel pressured into it.

And why does no one consider the military any more? Because they don't think they'll get in? If so re-consider spending that £95000 by the end of the loans term (and that's with the tame interest rates at the moment).

Get yourself selected rather than just paying for everything.

Pick a way and stick to it.

And don't look for a one-stop-shop fix to things, I would strongly recommend the modular route. If I were starting out again I would work for 2-3 years, meanwhile achieveing a PPL here or abroad. I would then hour build, ATPLs at Bristol GS and go to FTE for their modular package. That or join the military and the military would get the first application, Army, RN and RAF.

Andy_20
24th Jun 2009, 15:43
The Beak has hit the nail on the head there.... Im in military (ground crew) working and saving from a decent wage! PPL is done, and half way through the ATPLs and hour building.

Modular is by far the best option in my eyes! why spend more money when you dont have to? There is no point rushing atm really, im just glad im in a secure job earning and learning. I sympathize with anyone looking and struggling for work atm, especially after forking out so much on flying training. It cannot be fun!

The reason i asked a question before was ive always wanted a degree, but because of my job and flying training i want something that incorporates everything. So the Kingston Course looks likea good option!

Whatever you decide good luck with it! :ok:

also if anyone can answer my query itd be much appreciated!

ProPwannabe
24th Jun 2009, 20:09
To theBeak,


You know what?? ure absolutely right! what the hell am i thinking i dont need a degree to become a pilot, I should get the training done from a specialise fto with excellent reputation and high graduate employment rate. It is also quicker 18months rather than 36 months of integrated degree.

Hmm the only and common problem is finance, i dont think getting a loan is too much of a problem under my name and age, will it be worth it??

I have just applied with

Flight Training Europe S.L. (http://www.ftejerez.com/)

Good move you guys reckon???

2098
24th Jun 2009, 20:59
Go for it!:ok:


:E

rriisshhii
24th Jun 2009, 22:44
ProPWannabe,

I am by no means an expert on this subject, in fact I am in a similar situation to you; a wannabe. But it seems that your decision making appears to be a bit rash? I mean a few hours ago you were considering going to university, but then suddenly decided to apply to FTE? Correct me if I'm wrong, and you've done lots of homework on the subject. It might just me being a bit jealous...FTE was where I really wanted to go but simply couldn't cope with the costs. :{

My choice to go down the university route is in the hopes that I will save some money from the loans to pay for the training, albeit only a small amount or at least the accommodation, but primarily to have some fun whilst I'm doing the course; I'm only 19.

@TheBeak,

You said that if you were to do it again, you'd gain your PPL gradually, go to Bristol GS and then move onto FTE Jerez for the modular course. I'm a bit nonplussed with this subject, but do prospective airlines not look down on a seemingly lack of continuity with FTOs, or is this only/more applicable to what happens after the hour build? I'm hoping to do my training completely at Stapleford, however the course at FTE is fairly tempting but as of now, I'm set on SFC. Although who knows what will happen once I've finished my PPL and ATPLs in 2 years time?

ProPwannabe
25th Jun 2009, 00:07
hi riissshhii,

yes i am making very rash decisions, because i am desperate and having spoke to the course leader at bucks, he had to point out that i have to make the decision very soon based on the lateness of my enquiry.

However, i looked at the wider picture and thought if im going to get a loan lets say for 50k for the cabair training, i would also need to get a loan for the degree which is now £3k+a year so 3 years it be £9-10k. so that plus the £50k+ and the flight tickets u need to go to florida to do the training, and the accomodation needed for bucks campus, its around £70k.

Now i look at FTE, £89k the whole package included plus meals 3times a day, which i think is worth considering since i wont be earning money then. It probably offer better prospects with their partner airlines when done over the degree.

Remember Riisshhii, although we are in the same situation, im not young anymore! :eek: im 25, youre only 19! which is why my decision making is being really rash cos before you know it im coming very close to my 30s!!!
3 years degree or 2 years straight to the point specialise course on getting a pilot license and relevant licenses to be a competent FO. and thats the reason why. Though i thank you very much for your input, and wish you all the best, i keep ya posted on my progress!



I really hope i can get a loan for this, can anyone suggestion any funding options?


thanks :O

rriisshhii
25th Jun 2009, 00:24
I understand, that's fair enough. If you're still deciding between Cabair & Bucks, and FTE, I'd go for FTE based on those prices you quoted. However, some people (including myself) have been sent e-mails regarding FTE's price reduction in their integrated cost - now £76 000, reduced by £5000. You should definitely enquire about that.

Good luck

rriisshhii

ProPwannabe
25th Jun 2009, 00:39
oops sorry i meant £81k, and thanks again, i will definately enquire about it now that u have mentioned it =]

vlieger
25th Jun 2009, 04:07
Remember Riisshhii, although we are in the same situation, im not young anymore! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif im 25, youre only 19! which is why my decision making is being really rash cos before you know it im coming very close to my 30s!!!No offence, but I think you're way over the top if you quote your age of 25 as the reason to go 70k in debt. Don't do it. Save for a few years and when you're 28 or 29 with some money in your pocket, consider it again. There is no rush, if anything it would be wise to take it slow in this economic climate.

Groundloop
25th Jun 2009, 08:25
These degrees with pilot studies are possibly the WORST way of becoming a pilot in my opinion. For the last time, if you want to be a pilot train to be a pilot, if you want to get a degree then get a degree. What you would currently be getting is a useless mongrel of a thing which isn't at all respected.

Dear Beak, have you looked at the content of these degrees? Do you really know what you are spouting off about? A number of graduates from the City course have reported that they were asked a lot of questions about their degree course at their airline interview and they definitely got the impression it helped them get the job.

TheBeak
25th Jun 2009, 09:15
Hi Groundloop, you clearly have an interest in them. I am aware of the content, yes. They make you a jack of all trades and a master of none and in my opinion a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. I just don't see the point in them.

A number of graduates from the City course have reported that they were asked a lot of questions about their degree course at their airline interview and they definitely got the impression it helped them get the job.

I am sure they were and I am sure they did but who knows! Luck achieved them the interview and their characters and knowledge will have won them the job, NOT the degree.

ProPwannabe
25th Jun 2009, 11:34
goddamn i need a personal mentor!!!

im having second thoughts again!

................................. :ugh:

citation89
26th Jun 2009, 00:02
@ TheBeak

I have also been on one of these courses and think very highly of them. You say it makes you the jack of all trades and the master of none??? Well would that not mean that you are the jack of SOME trades, and still the master of NONE? As we have done EXACTLY the same as you have done, and a hell of a lot more!



@ ProPwannabe

To be honest, I would reccommend a course to you, and like rriisshhii, I would reccommend the Kingston course, mainly because I have been on it:)

I know these degree courses have critisisms, but so do Oxford, CTC, FTE, and any other establishment and there are many people out there who will put other companies down wether its due to competition, word of mouth, jealousy etc.

Best advice I would give is, do what feels best for you. If you have 70k to hand to chuck into an integrated course and its what you want then do it, if you want to take you time and go modular with no degree then do it, or if you want a degree and an ATPL at the time when hopefully things will be looking up then do that. Whatever you choose, dont rush into it! Think about which is best for you, even if it means delaying another year.

To finish, I have been to 3 interviews with different companies, and all 3 have questioned a fair bit on the degree course. Yes it may not be the main deciding factor, but if 2 identical candidates performed identically in an interview and were exactly the same in all ways except one had the degree, it may just come into use. Plus, it is great fun and it teaches a lot more than a normal modular or integrated course does.:ok:

TheBeak
26th Jun 2009, 06:18
but if 2 identical candidates performed identically in an interview and were exactly the same in all ways except one had the degree

An impossible situation and too weak to make your decision upon.

You say it makes you the jack of all trades and the master of none??? Well would that not mean that you are the jack of SOME trades, and still the master of NONE?

I am probably being thick but I don't know what you are talking about.

To finish, I have been to 3 interviews with different companies, and all 3 have questioned a fair bit on the degree course.

But were they with airlines to be a pilot?

There are many ways to skin a cat, the degree way is and is becoming ever more a more useless way IN MY OPINION.

ProPwannabe take command of life before you take command of an aircraft mate. Decion making is a vital tool of the trade and you need to make one and stick to it. Assimilate the information you have and just go for it, they'll all lead you to the same point more or less but at different costs and with different stress.

citation89
26th Jun 2009, 10:23
Yes, I agree it is a weak thing to be used as a deciding factor. I am talking extreme situations but at the end of the day. The degree is a qualification and if candidate A has one and B doesn't, everything else being identical, A would have the minute advantage.


Yes, all three interviews were with airlines.


You said, the doing one of these courses makes you the jack of all trades, but master of none. The courses involve all the ATPL training and a further knowledge past that. That would mean that anyone who has done one of these degree course would have done exactly the same as anyone who hasn't, plus a lot more.

TheBeak
26th Jun 2009, 15:33
Yes, all three interviews were with airlines.


As a pilot?

the ATPL training and a further knowledge past that

Well the ATPLs are useless, you barely use anything from them in practice so another pointless reason. What else do you learn? Airline management? Text book airline economics? Very light aeronautical engineering? Starting to sound like a jack of all trades to me. I am not trying to be rude so forgive me, but to me it just seems like a degree for the sake of it.

That would mean that anyone who has done one of these degree course would have done exactly the same as anyone who hasn't, plus a lot more.

It wouldn't on both accounts I am afraid. And alot more what? Someone who has done medieval basket weaving has done 'alot more' something. To me it proves nothing and wastes a valuable year that could have been used earning - that year at the end of our careers could be worth £100K in todays money.

As always it's horses for courses.

Sky Scratcher
27th Jun 2009, 18:14
ProPwannabe I am in a similar position as yourself (however a tad younger at 18). I have researched the options relentlessly over this past year. I took an assessment at OAA and was surprised/pleased to pass first time. The reason in which I am not deciding to pursue the OAA APP route is because I got talking to a trainee on the Integrated route and he told me if he were me, he would choose CTC or FTE. The reasons were mainly of bad weather Oxford gets but he also said the school give preference to some pupils and ‘look after’ them better. Reasons I am not aware of and am in no position to comment on, but that’s what he said.

I recently attended the Bucks’ open day and got talking to the course leader. He really sold the course but described it as a ‘Managed Modular’ rather than an Integrated which is displayed on the Cabair website.

However comments from The Beak are making me reconsider the option of an aviation related degree. (I know a FO and he assured me not to listen to people on pprune because many of them are here to put people of from the profession and if he had of listened to advice he was given over pprune, he wouldn’t be flying for a living).

I’m not saying that The Beaks advice is in anyway malicious as I am aware the guy has experience I can only dream of having one day and he has previousaly gave me valuable advice on a previous thread, but it’s just a thought.

If your intention is to go Integrated, my advice would be to book an assessment for CTC or FTE and decide from there. On the other hand I am hearing good things about Cabair’s USA option. Just don’t make any rash decisions as if this is a career you are set upon and will happily serve for the rest of your time, I don’t believe I’m wrong in saying that it deserves a bit of thought.

P.S. The course leader assured me many of the graduates secured jobs soon after graduation and airlines were impressed with their degrees also.

TheBeak
27th Jun 2009, 19:26
I am not saying don't be a pilot, if it is what you want to do, I for one know that one will throw away every other opportunity to do it. If you want to be a pilot then you almost MUST do it or else live a life of regret unless you have a very strong mind. But it's the way you do it that is important. Your first way must be to try and get selected, be it military or sponsorship. Your second, unless you have very rich and generous parents, should be the modualr route - earn and learn - but plan it and work to it. The route I descrbed previously on this thread would, I believe, stand you in good sted. I just really don't agree with roping parents in on the debt. There ARE ways around it. It is your parents and your choice though and it is their money/ property/ investments to do what they like with.

As for the degrees, I know guys with Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Engineering, Accountancy and Medicine degrees (all who trained to be pilots) and none have jobs as a pilot and none have jobs that are even remotely well paid or within the respective fields. Well done Gordon Brown :D. If I was going to get a degree it would be in one of the above as I personally still find them impressive to have if from a proper uni. An aviation degree is not going to detract from your C.V. or standing but it will from your time and money. It is your life to fit whatever you want in to, and, if an aviation degree is one of those things then that's the right reason to go for it. If you want to do it because you want to be a pilot then forget it and use your time and money more effectively.

I’m not saying that The Beaks advice is in anyway malicious

It really isn't and good on you for not thinking so - being able to constructively take on board things that aren't what you want to hear is a strong quality, something alot of people in this part of PPRUNE do not have. It is given with the best of intentions because I too was beside myself trying to decide how to go about training.

citation89
5th Jul 2009, 11:05
sorry taken a week to reply, been on my hols.

All three were for cadet pilot jobs,

I agree that you are just expressing your opinion on this, not tryin to be malicious. In my opinion, I think the course is great, as do many others, but I know its not for everybody and some people will obviously have differing opinions. What a boring world if we all conformed to the same opinions and beliefs.

Best advice I could give is, go check out the course, its open days etc, and decide if the course is for you.

C89

Flyboy6788
5th Jul 2009, 23:47
hi

ive just finished my degree at Bucks on the Air transport course.

ive just turned 21 (42minutes ago actually) have the degree 200 hours my PPL, CPL, Atpl theory and am starting my instrument rating in a couple of weeks.

The degree at bucks is ok. it gives you alot of background knowledge on the aviation industry from alot of different aspects. One positive for you going to bucks this year is they are currently building brand new halls accomodation and high wycombe campus. It luks like its going to be good! basically they are making a huge effort!

I cant tell you if the degree is worth doing with the pilot licenses as i havent been able to apply for a job. all i think is it cant hurt to have the degree as an extra!

if you want any more info email me

James

eclipse91
10th Jul 2009, 14:04
Hi,

I am 18 years old just finished my A2's, im taking a gap year and want to become a pilot.

The problem is my parents cannot afford the courses at new bucks, kingston or london city unis for a degree in air transport operations + ATPL. I am planning to obtain my PPL in my gap year.

Is it worth it to get a degree in Air transport operations and management 3 year course without a an ATPL and hopefully to build up the money in the 3 years so that i can apply to organisations such as CTC FTE etc.

Im good with computer programming should i instead get a degree in computer science from a good uni which is about 4 years then just work for an ATPL.

So in a way i can have a back up career if i still can't afford for an ATPL lisence.

Does anyone know organisations that provide ATPL's the most cheapest, i looked at the cabair website for Bournmouth and it said which i couldnt believe £2995 for an ATPL course. Is that just for ground school training. What area of gaining an ATPL is most expensive is it the practical i.e. flying side of it later on.

Also does it matter if build up the hours + training in a different country and then do the ATPL exams back here in the UK. Since training and fllying hours are a lot cheaper abroad places such as the USA, middle east.

Do u beleive it will be more easy to get full sponsorship with airline academy's after i have a degree in computer science?

thanks for any advice,

eclipse91.

TheBeak
10th Jul 2009, 18:49
Hi eclipse91,

I'll start with my opinions on your comments and ideas.

The problem is my parents cannot afford the courses at new bucks, kingston or london city unis for a degree in air transport operations + ATPL.

Nor should your parents have to afford it, sorry buddy, welcome to the real world.

I am planning to obtain my PPL in my gap year.


Not a bad one but not a great one.

Is it worth it to get a degree in Air transport operations and management 3 year course without a an ATPL and hopefully to build up the money in the 3 years so that i can apply to organisations such as CTC FTE etc.


In my opinion no, that would be a waste of your time, if you want a degree get A DEGREE, if you want to be a pilot TRAIN TO BE A PILOT. I've said a thousand times.

The course cost you quoted for the ATPLs is the ground study. You'll need a PPL and 100 hours PIC I think to start it as a minimum. Flying training i.e. flying the aeroplane is the expensive bit and plan to go 20% over your minimum cost.

My advice? Go and work in industry for 3-5 years, save, save, save and then if you still want to do it - GO FOR IT.

Good luck.

eclipse91
10th Jul 2009, 20:24
TheBeak thankds for your advice,

your a pilot right?

do airlines care what degree u have in what subject, also is it possible to gain an ATPL in another country will it be valid in the UK?, i mean are there any restrictions / conversions that have to be made or once u have an ATPL liscence or once u have it, it means u can use it anywhere?

Im thinking of getting ATPL training abroad + building up the hours after i get a degree and doing the ATPL exams in the UK because its cheaper

citation89
10th Jul 2009, 23:16
For the ATPL ground study you only need a PPL to start it, and your most expensive part of the training is the Instrument Rating. If it is done in another country, not JAA, you will need to do a conversion on this. All other training can be done in a none JAA state, such as the USA, as they offer JAA approved courses. Therefore, a conversion wouldn't be needed for a PPL/CPL/ME done abroad, as long as it followed the JAA course of training.

Personally, in my opinion, you are best to do as much of your training in the UK as possible, even if it costs a bit more. The difference in cost is getting smaller now with the poorer exchange rate, and once you have factored in flights, visas etc, you don't save a great deal. The only bit of flying that I would recommend doing some of abroad is the hours building as the weather is generally better, so you will get more hours done sooner.

I agree with the Beak on getting experience in the Industry, saving and making sure it is what you want to do. It will not come cheap, and if you are spending that amount of money on training, I would reccommend saving a little bit more and going with the best training you can get for your money, not the cheapest.

Also, you mention doing your ATPL training abroad, then building hours after the degree. To start your CPL, you need 150 hours, and 200 hours including 100PIC for it to be issued. Therefore, your hour building would need to be done before your ATPL training.

What subject you have a degree in or if you have one will not play any significant part in your selection for a job. After all, you are not required to have a degree to apply and most applicants won't have one. The main advantage of having a degree, especially for young applicants, is the skills that you will gain from it.

Any more questions just ask, and best of luck with whatever you decide

C89