Starting to regret it!

[Ronand]

So I've done it, spended around 45k (of which 25k belongs to the Bank) on a peice of Paper that is worth nothing in the aviation industry! In these 1,5years I worked really hard and had to put up with a lot of crap from flight schools! :ugh:
I spended my hard earend cash plus I'm about 25k in debts! I had a lot of illusions before I started my flighttraining about aviation, to be honest I didn't even enjoy it cos of all the delays and crap I got from the Flightschools I chose. I know It was entirely my own fault that I'm standing there with empty hands and huge debts. My Advise to anyone who is considering comercial flight training is:" Don't do it unless your parents are paying for it or u have huge funds!!, a CPL ME IR with low hours is worth :mad: these days!!

[Bealzebub]

What exactly did you think was going to happen?

[haughtney1]

Ronand, yeah it sucks, but trust me, most of us have been there!
Looking for a job at the moment for someone with your level of experience is a tough ask...it tough for everyone right now.
Rest assured things will improve..and its then when you need to be johnny on the spot.
In the meantime, drive a van, dig ditches, work in a call centre, do what you need to do....because like I've said, most of us have been there.

[geordiejet]

I hear you. Feeling the same - I'm sure there are a lot of us feeling the same. I never went into it with any delusions of a shiney jet job straight after training, took me three years (was working full time) and been working on my FIC for nearly a year now due to numerous delays and there are no jobs, not even for flight instructors (which were in need when I started training originally).

Sick to death of office work, so I'm frantically trying to finish my FIC so I can get applying for all FI jobs (IR expired and no MCC) so no chance of any airline work in the near future. So for the forseeable future I've applied to be cabin crew which I'm sure I'll love doing, and at the same time get some good experience and have fun.

Think we just have to stick with it, and not dwell on the cost. I've spent about the same (none of of mummy's unfortunately) and I'm pretty broke, but I try not to get too down about it. Just keep telling yourself "it'll soon pick up".

[Fat Clemenza]

Guys,

We've all been down there. Dreams, then come back to reality. BS from flight schools, pricks you pay to teach you but who only care about building time, countless hours of studying then your license with no job in the end...

BUt believe me it's worth it. I spent nearly 10 years in that sh!t hole. I tried to convince myself to give up more than once and looked for just a job to make a living...but I just could not.

It's not a question of being patient, it's a question of being more stubborn than the bureaucrats doing the hiring.

"After difficulty comes ease".:ok:

[Ronand]

I can just say, if I could turn time back I would never have done it again! First I thought it might help to get a FI rating but I think this is just more wasted money:ugh:
I got relatives in South america and could get a citizenship so
I'm siriously thinking about just :mad: off and running from my debts!

[flyingvikings]

I feel your pains mates, I am also starting the same road you all took, the same mistakes you all made. I have just made up my mind of spending 33k$ in Canada for my PPL, CPL, IR nd Multi Eng. I know it is difficult, but in Africa there will always be paying jobs for us. Try and think or consider working in Africa at least it is best working and earning some few doe that sitting doing nothing related to what you have suffered for and paid heavily for mates. Have a re-think...wish us all luck

[victorc10]

That would be very irresponsible. Why should other people pay your debts because you have decided to run away from something you have created? It is anything but easy to break into the aviation industry. Many of us have spent many years working very hard doing jobs most people would turn their noses up at....those that run away will never make it because they don't have stamina...Having said that, I hope you persevere because it is worth it.

[Mikehotel152]

Ronand - It takes a lot of money and effort to obtain an fATPL and we all hoped to land a job straight out of flight school, so I do sympathise with you.

The mistake you appear to have made was failing to plan for the worst case scenario. Did you really spend £45K on your training without considering what might happen if you did not get a job straight out of flight school? :uhoh:

Unfortunately, far too many people start their commercial flying training without having a carefully thought out plan for getting a foot in the cockpit door. A cursory glance at Pprune, a few books like 'Job Hunting for Pilots' by Greg Brown, or a few chats with aviation professionals would reveal that only a very few pilots get a job straight away, whether by stumping up the cash because they still have cash reserves, by knowing someone, possessing extraordinary talent, or by sheer luck.

Before starting training you have to do your research and assume you won't be one of those lucky few. You should only proceed if you possess two other personal characteristics which will become absolutely essential and help your throughout your career: determination and motivation. Given enough time and a modicum of talent, those characteristics will get you a job in the medium term.

That a person would consider giving up on their potential career and running away from debts - and I'll give Ronand the benefit of the doubt and assume he only said it in jest or in order to blow off steam - is a shocking indictment on the type of person joining the industry. :eek:

[LH2]

Why should other people pay your debts because you have decided to run away from something you have created?

Mate you've got no future. Ever heard of a place called Wall Street? :}

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

I fear that this thread might run the length similar to "Growing Evidence...."

I suspect more and more may post over the coming months in a similar ilk.

It never has been easy landing that first elusive job, be it night freight, air taxi, or now as an FI. These days, crikey, it's like hens' teeth. However, when you do get there, it's a good job I can't deny it, but this thread "may" serve as a wake up call to some folk. I realise alot of guys training are savvy enough to know that the lack of jobs may grind you down and make other plans in the short term, but there are some on the forum who don't appear to recognise the dire straits the industry is in, and it really is fellas, or who don't want to because they are so eager to get the ball rolling. I know what it's like to want to escape the desk job and pursue the flying career, but at the current time it MUST be tempered with pragmatism, and not the "it won't happen to me" attitude as displayed by some on the forum.

And in no way are my comments aimed at Ronand here, more as a general point. As pointed out, the market was different when starting out. I wish Ronand good luck, would say don't give up on it, but to others, please think about it at this point in time, don't be blinkered by the "dream" or FTO spin.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

I've worked within aviation as a FE for most of my working life (I'm now 56 years of age) and I'm now considering investing a huge chunk of my savings just to gain a CPL and do some instructing for a living. My current Ops job just doesn't pay my outgoings! I DO feel for all of you youngsters who aren't gloing where you want to go; especially when you've invested so much time, effort, and money into gaining your frozen ATPL... life sucks!

Quite frankly, short term, I believe that you're better off driving a truck for a living; better income and less grief! Willy Walsh wouldn't give you tuppence for your commitment... I was once with BA; in the good years, and, thoroughly enjoyed my FE job. The good years are over; therefore, don't believe for one moment that you'll ever achieve a similar lifestyle to those who have gone before you. A sad fact of life!

The heartache and pain of gaining a 'pass' of your ATPL exams; worthy of your commitment and expenditure, isn't worth anything within this modern age. We might as well gain a degree in 'underwater basket-weaving'... which is probably worth more than the thousands of pounds of your investment into a flying career!

Good luck to you all.

[Re-Heat]

This thread is remarkably interesting due to the incredible honesty displayed.

I hope everyone here makes it eventually - nobody would wish indebtedness and lack of employment on anyone.


PPRuNe is an excellent antidote to the marketing bull of flight training schools (and Ryanair), and this long history of sensible financial and training advice (with some posters' prescient warnings) must be spread as far and wide as possible.

There is truth in the CAA's statistics, which have a wide disparity between licence issue and employment figures.

The cardinal rules of flight training have to be:
- Have a backup plan;
- Don't get into extraordinary debt;
- Treat FTO marketing with extreme scepticism; and
- Make sure you have proven, strong aptitude when self-selecting.

[BEagle]

I also question the ethics of FIC schools which continue to churn out novice FIs in the full knowledge that there are virtually no FI jobs around these days... Quite what lies they are telling their students, I cannot imagine.

There are also large numbers of people around who, whilst holding all the relevant bits of paper, will never be employable on an airline flight deck (not even Ryanair) because they lack basic interpersonal skills. The CAA has confirmed this.

There really is a case for all prospective airline pilots to be required to take a mandatory aptitude test before being permitted to start a CPL course.

[Desk-pilot]

I greatly sympathise with all of you having spent 18 months job hunting and falling back on my previous IT career during that time.

There are a couple of issues I think with this industry. The main one is that training is exclusively a private enterprise not run by Government. This leads to flying schools expanding their intake far beyond the numbers of available jobs. As a contrast my wife has recently embarked upon training to become a teacher (PGCE). Now the Government pays a training allowance of £9000 for 9 months tuition and restricts the numbers who can train so that it more closely matches the demand for teachers within the industry. Result is that hopefully everyone with the ability who passes the course should get a job. The starting salary is £21000, with a reasonable expectation of achieving a Head of dept type salary within say 5 years (£36k ish). Factor in the fact your training is paid for, a further £5000 golden hello for new science teachers and the fact that you get 12 WEEKS paid holiday a year and you can see how much better this is as a deal than being a pilot nowadays!!

Sadly this profession is becoming a joke in terms of the employment conditions, working hours, salaries, employment prospects etc and many of you would be well advised to explore some potential alternatives that pay better, even if only as a means to support yourselves and have a comfortable lifestyle while you keep current at weekends and wait for the upturn. When the upturn comes you will then have a reasonable job and you can decide if you actually want to leave it to fly.

What I'm trying to say really is you are where you are. You can't get a flying job at the moment so you might as well fill your time doing something decent rather than working in McDonalds - get yourself a second career.

Just recently we had a F/O with 3 years flying under his belt who went back to ATC because the hours and pay were far better - and he'd made it to the right seat of an airliner!! Another left to train as a train driver - all training paid and £50k a year! Another Captain I know and keen sailor is contemplating training as a liner Captain with P&O or whatever because he'd see the world and enjoy the status and tradition - fine dining etc that airline Captains are nowadays denied. Flying really isn't what it used to be, it's hard to see that when you're a wannabe, but ask any airline pilot and they'll agree. Of course we all love the flying bits of the job but if you really look at the workload, the pay, the training costs, the unsocial hours etc in an unemotional manner I'm not sure it makes that much sense as a career nowadays compared to some of the better alternatives.

[profot]

I feel sorry for the youngsters in this situation.

When i did my training there were a few guys like me who had businesses and careers to fall back on and walk straight back in to but those poor lads and lasses in their teens and early twenties must surely be getting a bit down in the dumps.

Try to keep your chin up and if you really want that elusive job you have to try that little bit harder than the next guy!

[skyhighbird]

Maybe the problem is that you spended £45K.

If you had spent £45K, things may have panned out differently.

[shaun ryder]

I do not agree Desk - Pilot. The hours you work per week in this job are less than average. The pay coupled to the amount of time you spend at work is actually quite good (depends on employer I know). However if you are flying for crap money well I can understand, because in the end it is all about the money.

[helimutt]

Desk-pilot:

You might want to talk to your friend and give him a few friendly pointers.
Another Captain I know and keen sailor is contemplating training as a liner Captain with P&O or whatever because he'd see the world and enjoy the status and tradition - fine dining etc that airline Captains are nowadays denied.

To train from scratch he'd need to go to college, pass the necessary exams, get the minimum qualifications and start at the bottom. His 'Captain' qualification from flying would do nothing for him at sea. He'd be joining many other guys working their way up the ladder. Unfortunately, money can't buy a Master Mariners ticket. Years at sea and experience are required and the chance of ending up as a P&O Liner Master, well, pretty much the same odds as becoming a premiership footballer.

[Desk-pilot]

Helimut, I think he has decided to stay put for the time being anyway but thanks for the pointers.

Regarding Shaun's post I think the hours worked and pay vary so widely in this game that it's difficult to debate. Obviously if you're working in the charter area you're actually paid rather well and seemingly at least in Winter don't work that much. If on the other hand you're talking about a junior FO in the low cost sector which is realistically where most get their first airline job then you will probably be working some sort of 5 on 2 or 3 off type pattern and as the days can be as long as 10 hours duty I'd say that you could be working 45-50 hours a week at unsocial times for a fairly modest wage - say £20k-£30k if you're lucky in year 1?

I'm not trying to dissuade people from flying, it's a genuinely enjoyable job and I consider myself very fortunate to actually enjoy the job I have (which is rare amongst my neighbours and friends.) I was really just trying to offer wannabes who currently can't join the party a realistic view of the job and also encouraging them to find something else for a couple of years till things pick up.

Clear skies to all of you.

[Groundloop]

the chance of ending up as a P&O Liner Master, well, pretty much the same odds as becoming a premiership footballer.

I'll second that. To reach that level in P&O you would need to have joined as a cadet straight out of school. If your friend, the Captain, really thinks this is a possible alternative career path for him I would seriously question his judgement and, hence, if he should even be an airline Captain at all.

[Ronand]

@Skyhighbird My first language is not english, I would like to see you writing in spanish! To be honest I don't think it's my english, that is holding me back from getting a job!
@Flyingvikings You have illusions mate, the job market in Africa is as dead as it gets and if u don't have any contacts and no citizenship you got zero chance of scoring a job there! Sorry to say but that's a fact! And by the way it will cost u more than 36$!

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

From the original poster, I would be interested to know what you actually expected?

Why should you only pursue your ambitions if your folks are going to fund it for you, or you have huge funds as you put it? What is wrong with working hard yourself to earn the money, to fund yourself to achieve your dreams?

I appreciate everyone has their own set of personal circumstances, however, if you are persistent and it is in your heart, believe me you will achieve your goals.

In terms of your advice to other people, I would disagree. One thing people fail to do is think about a back up plan, and thoroughly research what they are getting themselves into. Ever since I can remember, if you are not sponsored by an airline, getting your first job is going to be difficult. As most people have mentioned here, and I include myself here, we have all been there. Don't get me wrong, some people are lucky, I work with a few, they got their first job flying a jet shortly after completing training, but, they are few and far between. You must think about your plan of action post flying training. There is no point have this huge commitment and investment in your future and then sitting back once you have finished and whining because you are not sitting in the sharp end of an airliner.

I wouldn't give up, there is always a way.

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Ronand

Hey! It could be worse!

A pal of mine spended £100,000, got his fATPL but he'll never get a job in aviation as he spent his entire time at the various schools arguing with his instructors.

At least you're 'only' out £45k.

I had to go back to my old job flogging cars when I qualified as there wasn't much hiring then. Guess what? In the showroom one day I met a pilot and he was instrumental in me getting a start.

Keep your chin up and wait for things to improve.

Don't give up.:ok:

[TurboJ]

........... if you really look at the workload, the pay, the training costs, the unsocial hours etc in an unemotional manner I'm not sure it makes that much sense as a career nowadays compared to some of the better alternatives.

I couldn't disagree with you more. My previous career in the emergency services I had to endure 18hr days, no breaks, non stop grief from both the public and supervisors, 8hrs in between shifts, stuck out in bad weather and politics that was beyond belief.

Whilst a flying career has its own hassles, I work far less for a lot more money and I'm only in the RHS. To say I'm at work sat at home on standby is incomprehensible to former colleagues.

What are the better alternatives? I'd be interested to know.

Going back to the original post - I've very little sympathy. What did you expect when you started your training? Now you have a licence you have to go and build your experience, along with the hundreds of other people who also have graduated from flight school. Try doing that whilst holding down a full time job, working shifts, with a wife, mortgage, three kids etc etc...

Unless you went to one of the major schools who will get you the interview, nobody is going to hand you a job on a plate. You have to go and work for it.

Network - Get to know people too - They will also network for you; Several jobs I got were through people who knew people.

Good luck.

[Brian Fantana]

I didn't even enjoy it cos of all the delays and crap I got from the Flightschools

welcome to the world of aviation how do you think you are going to be treated by an airlines ops,crewing department are you going to throw your toys out of the pram everytime you have a delayed air traffic slot or delay due to baggage loaders, late passengers etc etc?
There is so much more to being an airline pilot than just climbing into a shiny jet flying somewhere sunning and lounging by the pool drinking cold beers and checking out the girlies.
Everybody has had to go through hard times to get where they are now some people (the not so keen ones) throw in the towel, others (the really keen ones) make it to the pool - which are you?

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

There is so much more to being an airline pilot than just climbing into a shiny jet flying somewhere sunning and lounging by the pool drinking cold beers and checking out the girlies.

Oh bloody hell, no-one told me that when I started! :)

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

There is so much more to being an airline pilot than just climbing into a shiny jet flying somewhere sunning and lounging by the pool drinking cold beers and checking out the girlies.


Is there? ;)

[Dr Eckener]

You know there is CAT3C. You also have to spend a lot of time sat next to a gaylord like yourself talking about motorbikes and 80's music. :{

[Ronand]

@Brian Fantana Well the big diffrence is if u work for an airline u earn money and u are not paying for any delays... So I wouldn't really care..
Its incredible with how much BS I had to put up with while training, after all I was a paying costumer! There is no other business, where a customer pays that amount of money and gets treated like that! Maybe I was just really unlucky and chose the wrong schools, but from what I read here it seems to be quite common that other students are making similar experiences with other schools....

[TheBeak]

Its incredible with how much BS I had to put up with while training, after all I was a paying costumer! There is no other business, where a customer pays that amount of money and gets treated like that!

Exactly, and when you complain that they are never flying you because they couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery you get:

A pal of mine spended £100,000, got his fATPL but he'll never get a job in aviation as he spent his entire time at the various schools arguing with his instructors.


So if you don't bend over and take their laziness and black mail, you have them bad mouth you to any potential airline employer. It's not a nice industry.

welcome to the world of aviation how do you think you are going to be treated by an airlines ops,crewing department are you going to throw your toys out of the pram everytime you have a delayed air traffic slot or delay due to baggage loaders, late passengers etc etc?


No and this is what every captain/FTO says. It is completely different. You are being PAID, we are PAYING. You are sitting in an aircraft doing what you trained to do. The whole problem is the NOT flying. So it is not even in the slightest bit similar.

[Mikehotel152]

BEagle has a point:

There are also large numbers of people around who, whilst holding all the relevant bits of paper, will never be employable on an airline flight deck (not even Ryanair) because they lack basic interpersonal skills.

I would go one step further. The number of people posting on Pprune in barely intelligible English is appalling. I was lucky to be taught English abroad in a fairly traditional way. We learnt grammar and spelling, punctuation and syntax. I suppose you can't expect much from the products of the painfully politically-correct modern English state school system.

Why is any of this important? It's simple: A person who concentrates on writing correctly and clearly will probably think in a similarly careful way. If you do not take care in the way you express yourself, will you take care in the way you fly? Will you be able to interact properly with another crewmember, the public, the cabin crew? Or is your attitude generally 'slapdash'? What sort of person do you think the Airlines want to employ?

Just another aspect of this issue of aptitude for the job, but worth mentioning, innit. :E

[TheBeak]

I couldn't agree more Mikehotel152.

[Re-Heat]

Desk-pilot

I'm not sure that government-run training would be any better. You only have to look at the serious failings they have made in calculating requirements for RAF pilots, doctors and the like to see that they would make no better fist of it than the private sector!

[destinationsky]

I agree with that point too! I meet people everyday who have more of an "education" than i do. Most of them either have no common sense or cannot spell for toffee.
This world is full of opportunities that will only present themselves if you go looking for them. I am about to start my training with the intention to become a commercial pilot. I have networked and got to know pilots through various airlines by introducing myself. In turn, they introduce you to others and before you know it, emails are flying around and hey presto, you have links. I have even got a contact in DBX who owns a cargo airline.
Its all well and good moaning that your experience has been bad but your life is in your hands. If you truly want to fly for a living, get out there and make yourself known. Dont moan that you stand no chance of getting anywhere. With an attitude like that, how the hell will you get anywhere?!
I understand that the industry is bad and there are no jobs. Get a job doing anything! If you were worried about the money you could have stopped training at any point. It cant of been as bad as you say otherwise you would have stopped along time ago!
I hate my job at the moment but it pays well. Its not my ideal job but it pays money and it pays for my passion. Flying.

[quant]

ronand ignore the silly pprune spelling police..

[Mikehotel152]

Sorry, quant, but I do not understand your post.

Are you saying Ronand has ignored the silly Pprune spelling police or are you telling him to ignore the silly Pprune spelling police?

Case in point.

And I ought to clarify that my comments about the correct use of the English language were not aimed at Ronand, but at native speakers.

[2098]

MikeHotel get a life. I'll tell you what the airlines don’t want; people with no social skills. Who wants to site next to a pilot for 8 hours and talk about the current UK education system??! No Thanks!

I'll stick to football and women :p

[student88]

MikeHotel sounds like the last person I'd want to share a flight deck with.

A career FO in the making.

[Kelly Hopper]

Mikehotel you are so right.
Those whose native language is not English can be forgiven but I spend so much time "trying" to read posts that have appalling grammer, spelling mistake after spelling mistake, their/there/the're errors etc. it is simply embarrassing.
Aren't we supposed to be of above average intelligence?
It is very true indeed that presentation at this level can be representative of the way a person conducts themselves in all they do. It is not just spelling police, it is a very clear indication of how much effort someone put into something. I even see CV's with half a dozen spelling mistakes! WOT?
At the very least read through what you have written before clicking "submit reply."

[student88]

I even see CV's with half a dozen spelling mistakes! WOT?

..hypocrite?

Intelligence has no correlation with ones ability to spell or punctuate.

[MaxReheat]

WOT..........I think he's trying to make a point which obviously flew way above your head at mach 2.

You are right; intelligence does not correlate to spelling or punctuation ability. However, it does reflect overall education and 'ones' attention to detail and presentation. The more reputable airlines do look considerably further than raw flying ability. I have processed many hundreds of CVs and the first place a poorly presented, incoherent ramble that is laden with grammatical and spelling errors is consigned is 'file 13' aka the bin.

2098; I strongly suggest you broaden your interests beyond the realms of women and football. No matter how sociable you may be you will not get past the first interview.

[Kelly Hopper]

Intelligence has no correlation with ones ability to spell or punctuate.

Unfortunately for you I somehow can just see the look on the faces of the interview board when you throw that one at them!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I'll tell you what the airlines don’t want; people with no social skills. Who wants to site next to a pilot for 8 hours and talk about the current UK education system??! No Thanks!


Thats great, but what if the other pilot sitting next to you for 8 hours does want to talk about education, politics, how much tax he/she has to pay? It happens all the time. You don't always get to fly with similar people who share your love of beer and football. I spent 10 hours yesterday in the cockpit listening to my colleague bitch about his ex-wife. :zzz:

I think a few people posting on this thread have demonstrated they have no idea about how the airline industry works, and those attacking Mikehotel152 clearly have no concept of what it is like working in a multi-crew flight deck. Social and communication skills include being able to grin and bear the fact you have to spend a whole day operating an a/c with someone you don't particularly like at all.

MikeHotel sounds like the last person I'd want to share a flight deck with.

A career FO in the making.

What makes you qualified to judge?

[Flintstone]

Someone just broke my irony-o-meter. Those moaning about speeling and grammafication (two of my pet subjects by the way) might want to re-read their posts and yes, I got the 'wot' gag.

Meanwhile, back on Planet Topic. Destinationsky, while making contacts is undoubtedly important the majority of them will mean a big, fat nothing when you contact them clutching a newly issued licence with 200 hours in your coffee-stain free logbook. One of the major factors dictating experience minimums is insurance and no amount of 'networking' :rolleyes: will hide insufficient experience. I wish you well but have a feeling that when/if you finish your training you'll be experiencing the same emotions as those here, already ahead of you in the game, who you seek to advise.

Good luck with it.

[Kelly Hopper]

Damn it Flinty. I was interested to see just how long it would take but you spoilt the fun! You are not supposed to be here. Less than one hour? Rubbish!

[Flintstone]

The voices made me do it.

[2098]

At the very least read through what you have written before clicking "submit reply."

Last edited by Kelly Hopper : Today at 19:06.

Missed something did we? :E

Thats great, but what if the other pilot sitting next to you for 8 hours does want to talk about education, politics, how much tax he/she has to pay? It happens all the time. You don't always get to fly with similar people who share your love of beer and football. I spent 10 hours yesterday in the cockpit listening to my colleague bitch about his ex-wife. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sleep.gif


Good point, but my point was that self appointed spelling police are extremely dull and boring and difficult and annoying. I'll happily listen captain go on about his ex wife as long as he doens't start whining on to me about a spelling mistake I might have made.

Why attack someone for dodgy spelling, grammer blah blah blah its just pointless.

Maxreheat; Already jumped that hurdle thanks ;)

[Kelly Hopper]

Oh 2098, please try to keep up!

[quant]

Sorry, quant, but I do not understand your post.

Are you saying Ronand has ignored the silly Pprune spelling police or are you telling him to ignore the silly Pprune spelling police?

Case in point.

And I ought to clarify that my comments about the correct use of the English language were not aimed at Ronand, but at native speakers.To us native speakers my comments are easily understood perhaps your command of our great language isn't what you think it is :confused: I'm sorry but you have no case and point and i don't want to be drawn into an argument with a 12 year old.

;)

[Flintstone]

Why attack someone for dodgy spelling, grammer blah blah blah its just pointless.

Why bother replying?

Damn! I just did it too.


Believe it or not attention to detail is kind of important in our job. Yes, some pilots are picky, anal, pedantic or whatever you want to call it but I'd rather fly with one of them than someone for whom near enough is good enough. I know, I know. It's 'only' the internet but most of us wouldn't tolerate it at work so why put up with it on this professional pilot's forum? Try posting in textspeak and you'd be moderated, yes? Merely differing degrees of the same thing.

As for conversation on the flight deck I'd get up and go for a walk if anyone mentioned football or their latest squeeze. Might as well swop knitting patterns. :zzz:

[Mikehotel152]

MikeHotel get a life. I'll tell you what the airlines don’t want; people with no social skills. Who wants to site next to a pilot for 8 hours and talk about the current UK education system??! No Thanks!

I'll stick to football and women http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif


I ought not lower myself to the level of replying to this, but...ha ha ha...you know what, I'd much rather talk about football and women! Unfortunately, that won't get you a job. :} I take issue with the suggestion that I have no social skills because I see value in using the English language properly! :ugh:

MikeHotel sounds like the last person I'd want to share a flight deck with.

A career FO in the making

That's a bit harsh considering you have never met me. The anonymity of this forum means that one day we might meet on the flightdeck and you will never guess that the smiling, funny, considerate, and helpful guy next to you has an alter-ego called Mikehotel152. :)

Why attack someone for dodgy spelling, grammer blah blah blah its just pointless

It isn't pointless. A lack of punctuation can completely change the intended meaning of a sentence! If you don't see that as a problem in any profession, there is little point talking to you about it. Poor spelling makes you look careless. Poor syntax makes you look thick. Of course it's possibly to get a job while possessing the language skills of a 12 year old. It's just less likely.

To us native speakers my comments are easily understood perhaps your command of our great language isn't what you think it is http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif I'm sorry but you have no case and point and i don't want to be drawn into an argument with a 12 year old.

Oh, I have no doubt that we all know what you meant; we native speakers just chuckle at your inability to articulate yourself properly in your own language.

[FANS]

And yet again we have what started out as a sensible thread degenerate into absolute nonsense.

It does highlight, however, that careful consideration is needed before rushing into this career, as too often people seem to have no understanding as to the reality of the industry at present and that £40K+ is a lot of money - especially if it's borrowed.

[Bealzebub]

Why attack someone for dodgy spelling, grammer blah blah blah its just pointless.
Perhaps it is because it is a professional pilots website and not something like MSN messenger. Given the international dimension of a site like this, it is natural that for many posters English isn't a first language, and equally it shouldn't be necessary for anybody to have to proof read every submission in order to avoid the odd mistake. However given the target audience and the general level of perception, it is not unreasonable to expect that somebody posts (where they can) without every other word being erroneous, or employing some form of abbreviated telephone text vocabulary.

In an industry where communication is one of the key requirements, it is reasonable to expect that those who seek answers, and those that give them, can employ many of the key elements of those communication skills, to at least an average reflection of their ability.

Anyway going back to my original reponse to the posters question, which itself was a question, what were you expecting?

[Kelly Hopper]

It's not absolute nonsense, (yet), it's just evolving.
What is somewhat at odds is 2098's reluctance to accept, at least some error of his ways. Taking a look at all your postings, they ALL contain spelling mistakes. As you are trying to find employment I wonder if all your applications also do?
Can you not appreciate that if your application has no spelling mistakes or gramatical errors you may be one step ahead of the next guy already? With them you are one step behind! It may not be important to you, but it may be to your employer.

[2098]

I'm off to the library to read up on modern art, I don't want that splendid old chap the captain to think I'm a commoner :p

I Spent 10 years working in industry, the most commonly talked about subject was women, the 2nd was usually sport.

I Spent 18 months training as a pilot, the most talked about topic was women, the 2nd was flying and 3rd was usually sport.

Back on topic;

Stop crying and get on with it. Things could be worse alot worse. You wont get much sympathy out in the real world after blowing 45k on flying around in 20year old washing machines. :yuk:

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

And this had the potential to be a rather good, interesting thread. It now resembles something of a playground.

What a shame. :zzz::ugh:

[2098]

Kelly maybe you should check your cv for spelling mistakes too? Perhaps there isn't a demand for a capable and motivated pilot who can't spell???

Shankly, make a decent contribution then?

:zzz:

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

2098

I did. Page one. Your tone indicates you have taken issue with my last comment? Why?

My comment happened to follow yours, and in no way did I infer you, or any other inividual. So I fail to see the logic of your semi-hostility in your "...then" post. Unfortunately it seems to be a growing trait on Pprune, taking umbridge with someone where a) there is no need and b) you wouldn't in a non-virtual debate......

And by that, do you wish me to contribute to this gripping debate whether spelling is important or not on a forum? I have an opinion on it but quite frankly, it's neither here nor there to the original poster, or in fact anybody else.

[2098]

Easy tiger :p

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

:} Indeed. Oh well, the wooden hills beckon. I hate earlies. :}

[mona lot]

the wooden hills beckon

Doncha mean "the wooden hill beckons"?:eek:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/effect_an_effect.png

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

:) Doncha mean "don't you.."? Doh!

Oh this is just getting out of hand now......:}

Like the cartoon by the way.

[student88]

I WANT TO GO HOME :uhoh:

[Artie Fufkin]

I even see CV's with half a dozen spelling mistakes!

What is wrong with mistake's?

:E

[Flintstone]

Mr Shankly, I have to disagree with your assertion that this thread had potential. It's (sadly) a replica of many that have gone before it in that it was started by someone (who I have some sympathy for but not for the obvious reasons) who didn't think it through and is now facing pay-back of the loan day without the job the flying school promised them. It won't be the last either and in the current climate I think we can expect more than usual.

It had nowhere to go because there are really only three responses to the OP's question which PPRuNe history shows are a) 'Serves you right', b) 'I sympathise' and c) 'You carn't spel mate innit?'. Doomed from the off and we could just as easily have searched out an old thread and read that.

[flyingvikings]

In this case considering the fact that Canada would cost me upto $36,000 I would just prefer to stick to a flying school in South Africa as they informed me that it will cost me $25,000 (PPL,CPL,Multi, IR). There is no really no need spending much for it in Canada cos u really cannot tell of getting a job immediately you graduate. I have to save at least $11,000 which will do for my FI course and type rating as well on the boeing. What do you suggest Ronand? I am in a critical confused state of mind. Canada or South Africa where do you advise me mates?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Verbal reasoning and size of vocabulary are amongst the more powerful predictors of pilot aptitude.

I have a degree in Psychometric testing, did this as my dissertation study and point to the fact that most pilot selection tests use the measures.

Interpreting the MEL is often a much more demanding part of my day than the 38kt crosswind landing.. But its not that. Its a correlation with something else that verbal reasoning and vocabulary measures relate to.


Text speak is acceptable on forum like this. But you're dumb to use it and sophisticated to avoid it.

[Whirlygig]

Text speak is acceptable on forum like this.It's not if we don't understand it. :}

[powerstall]

one thing is for sure..... it ain't the prestigious career anymore. :(

[dzumandzi]

Well I think that the situation that with fATPL you sit without the job is nothing extraordinary. Let take a look at any profession - economist (accrding to a data of statistics, they form most part of unemployment in their own profession), financists, MBA, etc, etc... All of them heve to spend up to 10 years before they get a good job in they profession. I don't think pilots are exception. Only difference is that the training is very costly. I am going to start integrated in FTE this year and I believe that this will be most exicting part in the very hard way to the jet pilot career. Do not know is it worth it but dont want to regret that I have'nt even tried. Talking about the expences - I think that cost of training forms only 70% from ability to take a F/O seat in a jet.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Flinty I think you could be right. I thought the thread may provide some useful counterbalance from those at the training/graduated coalface, to those who are determined to start training and "pursue the dream" etc...

And not really from the point that "my flight school messed me around", hell that can be life generally sometimes unfortunately, but more from guys who have invested in their training and are now coping as best they can. With a range of lads out there, some of whom are amazed at the lack of aviation jobs, to the guys who have wisely made a plan B for themselves, I thought the discussion might have opened up a bit.

Alas, it went down the option C road.

[fiveo]

one thing is for sure..... it ain't the prestigious career anymore. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

:yuk:

Basing your perception of your colleagues on a load of tripe posted on an anonymous internet forum? :confused:

Never mind the fact that you're spelling is atrocious. :p

[TheBeak]

that you're spelling

Keep doing things like that, joke or otherwise, and it'll stick.

Back on topic, can anyone really say they can see the airline industry expanding within the next 10 years? I just can't. How can anyone afford to maintain their loan and maintain their licence and ratings at the same time whilst things recover? The loan costs £1200 a month after tax, the maintainance of the licence and ratings, averaging the cost of IR renewal across the year and doing an hour a month, is costing £250 a month and for how long? I feel like I am throwing my life away for the sake of this bloody job. It has dumped on me at every chance and I have tried my ar*e off with it - 400 hours on a 737 gets you nothing even though it has been earned and not paid for. I appreciate it is dreadful everywhere but this looks set to stay this way (within the airline industry) for a long, long time. This is very different to before, there are relatively more aircraft and airliners per head in the UK than ever before, the country is spiralling towards much, much more debt, relatively speaking, than ever before. Even phoning flying clubs and enquiring about FI jobs one receives a sullen and curt 'NO' and then silence. It is such a worry. It's going to take a huge success else where to get myself, and anyone else in the same position as me, out of this one.

Can any long standing airline pilot out there really say they have seen this before and it will improve - I just can't see it happening within a damage limiting, affordable timescale. Is it really worth maintaining this bloody thankless licence?

And before anyone questions my love of flying, I genuinely love it more than I can possibly describe. Maybe I lust after it rather than love it and we all know what happens when you do that with a girl that's not interested - they cheat on you, financially rape you and then dump you - much like it seems flying is doing right now.

I guess I am just having one of those bad days where you feel bored, frustrated and worried. So many knock backs......I have to keep reminding myself that kites fly highest in the wind.

[Bealzebub]

Beak, to answer your questions. Yes we have seen the upside and downside of economic cycles over the years. I have seen a few in the three decades that I have been working in this role and in this industry. The use of the term "cycle" would tend to imply a measurable quantity, but in fact there are so many variables in the dynamic that it is impossible to predict the duration of these events with any degree of accuracy, or even to predict the spot location in the cycle.

There are however a number of other contributory factors, that I haven't seen in the last 30 years that are very relevant to todays market, and to some extent you have touched on them yourself! I have brought these factors to the attention of my replies in a few other threads, but nobody seems to want to take much notice.

Firstly, it is only in the relatively recent past that there was any real perception that pilots with barely a week full of hours, would stand any realistic prospect of an airline job. There was always an element of specific tailored training that provided a small number of candidates entry into small schemes within the largest operators. However this has now mutated and burgeoned into an industry whereby the "job" isn't a job any more, it is part of the training process. This has had the effect of distorting the pilot job market, such that opportunities for experienced career changers or advancers ( ex-instructors/ Air taxi / third level operators and military pilots,) have been curtailed by the fact that these F/O positions, are no longer jobs. They are part of a pay to fly process.

In theory at least, and all other things being equal, that turnover of pay to fly "wannabes" should eventual churn into a stream of paid employees, to occupy the right hand seat positions left vacant by promotions to Captain. However that has been distorted by the next observation.

Secondly, over the last few years there has been a significant change in the mandatory retirement age for pilots (notably in the left seat) to age 65! In some cases this has allowed pilots to extend their working lives by a further 10 years. When you realize that these 55 year olds are at the top of their careers, usually on (and even drawing) healthy final salary pensions, as well as enjoying the best surviving conditions in the industry, you will understand why so many no longer wish to retire. Coupled with present recession, many will also feel they can no longer afford to. Notwithstanding the higher proportional attrition rate within this 55-65 age group, it has in reality given the industry a 10 year breathing space. This had undoubtably had a significant downward pressure on pilot demand and all but killed it in the lower stratus. A large number of airlines have taken advantage of this situation to completely re-write their terms and conditions for new entrants. If you don't think so, then just take a look at what is happening in those companies that you would aspire to work for.

Thirdly, what pink floyd referred to as High fidelity First Class Travelling, is shrinking at an exponential rate. No more credit for top price brand labels. Discretionary First class/Club class travel is being replaced by the more trendy if less comfortable lo-cost chic. Many top tier carriers relied on this market for their profits. Having seen their futures threatened by its demise ( and the demise of all the specialist premium class operators,) they are now looking to the back end of the aircraft, and to the bread and butter, bucket and spade markets enjoyed by the previously flourishing Lo-Co airlines, and charter airlines, that they were previously happy to ignore. All these big fish are getting hungry and the resources are getting scarcer.

Put all these things together and you have a situation that I haven't ever seen before. A 10 year moratorium on normal demand for captains, a market distortion at the entry level caused by the sale of the First Officers seat to a plentiful and willing supply, and then a severe recession in the global economy.

I don't know any more than anybody else does, how these things will eventually translate themselves into the real world or wider economy, but they are things I haven't witnessed before and the end result will certainly be at best interesting!

[TheBeak]

Bealzebub, thanks very much for your time taken for the response. It's a chain of events that leads to a crash and I am starting to feel like the holes in the Swiss cheese model are lining up! As you say Lo Cos, retirement ages, pay to flys and the recession (depression) are leading to a very difficult and brand new situation for alot of us. Hopefully a bit of situational awareness will save the day i.e. don't bury your head in the sand and believe that this will all blow over in a few years.

[dzumandzi]

Do I understand wright that F/O seat is (or will be in near future, or has a tendency to become) not paid by employer, but by employee?

[Kelly Hopper]

Yeas, U shure do unstudant wright!

[dzumandzi]

what is the interval of possible hour (or measured in any other way) cost?

[Leezyjet]

Guy's can we quit all this spelling bolleaux. Ever thought that people might be able to spell, but are not too good a typing ?. I chose to be a pilot, not a secretary so my typing skills are not that good (although looking at what some p/a's get paid, they earn more than a lot of pilots !!), but I can spell pretty well and not too bad at flying either. Combined with using a netbook with only a 75% size keyboard means that sometimes my fingers hit the wrong buttons - ever thought some people might even be posting from mobile phones with even smaller keyboards, or might not have English as a first language ?.

Most people also come on here for a bit of R&R, to get away from all the b/s rules and regs we deal with on a daily basis, and shouldn't then have to deal with the spelling police who have nothing better to do with their time.

My CV's and job applications are all checked and double checked, as they are important documents, writing on here isn't.

GET OVER IT !!.


:mad:

[TheBeak]

what is the interval of possible hour (or measured in any other way) cost?


What exactly do you mean?

If you mean how much is someone effectively paying an hour, take the Ryanair Scheme.

33000 Euros for the TR.

500 Hours of intensive line training. 35 Euros an hour. 500 x 35 = 17500 Euros. Let's say you attain 700 hours for the year. 200 x 55 = 11000 Euros. So that's 28500 Euros for the first year earned before tax after spending 33000 Euros. At another airline you may earn 35000 Euros a year and pay for no TR (but you'd be one in a million to get in at the moment). Ryanair MAKES 4500 Euros out of you for the year - That's possibly a 39500 Euro saving on a pilot for the year (not to mention interest).

That's a 39500 Euro difference (35000 + 4500) not taking into account interest. So for the 700 hours it has cost you 39500/700 = 56 Euros an hour. These are ball park, simplistic figures but it's worth thinking about to give a guide. They may be off here or there before someone starts slating it but they are around about there and in fact fair to the Ryanair scheme.

And before Ryanair pilots get all hurt, I am aware that it is about the only way into the industry at the moment so fair play to you guys and girls, you're the ones flying aircraft for a living.

[AlpineSkier]

WWW

I am dumbfounded that you say you did a degree in this - where for goodness sake ?

Could you confirm that this was only a fill-in on the golf-green-keeping course ?

[INNflight]

As said before.... It's (not "its"! :E) no wonder some trainees will never make it all the way into a commercial multi-crew flight deck.

I think some people around here underestimate the importance of social skills in this industry.

You can be the picture-perfect pilot good enough to fly a single-engine ILS to minimums upside down in a 300 pax airliner which is on fire and has no elevators (do you want fries with that during the next prof check? :}), yet if you are an a** nobody will want you.

Being good in socializing will make the difference between getting asked over a beer if you would be interested in that job (of course plus type rating) or mailing a check to some Irish airline (no offense!)

...now where's that "dead horse" smiley again..? :suspect:

[EIPCW]

INNflight,

Maybe you should take your own advice and gain some "social skills" by getting out more instead of searching these forums for spelling mistakes

Get over it and leave the threads for what they were set up for in the first place

[INNflight]

258 (edit: 259 :eek:) posts since April 2007 indicate I am present in here permanently indeed. My bad.

I'll go and find some friends now, I heard there's websites where you can "talk" to people in your area. :ooh:

[Flintstone]

EIPCW

I think INNflight's last two posts alone show that he 'gets' it and would be someone most people could spend a day with on the flightdeck, a quality too often overlooked in the selection process. You might want to read between the (his) lines.

[ba038]

INNflight - stop wasting other peoples time on posting stupid replys about spelling mistakes ,please i see it all the time.

[Flintstone]

Really? You do surprise me ;)

[clear prop!!!]

WWW

I am dumbfounded that you say you did a degree in this - where for goodness sake ?


'Buy one get one free' with every degree in over exaggerated house or oil price predictions, or, BA Hons in bad and condescending towards others on their way to your position in life, or,... HND in 'I'm all right Jack and you're all in the :mad:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

WWW

I am dumbfounded that you say you did a degree in this - where for goodness sake ?

Keele in the mid 1990's, Joint Hons Psychology degree with Human Resource Management degree. On the advice of OASC following RAF pilot sponsorship at A-level. The course allowed a high degree of adaption and specialization by the undergraduate. I skewed all of mine to psychometric testing, aptitude measurement, ability profiling, recruitment and industrial relations in professional work groups.

For my final year dissertation I completed a study whereby I designed a battery of pilot aptitude tests and then applied them to Air Cadets undergoing basic glider training courses. I was able to find both weak and strong correlations between various tests and success in flying training. Verbal Reasoning and Vocabulary were two of the most highly correlated test scores with success on the course.

It was a hell of a lot more useful to my future career (and sponsorship/job applications) than one of those tedious Aero Eng courses full of very heavy books, no pictures and definitely no female coursemates...

Thanks for asking.


Clear Prop!!! I indulge your little brick egg pelts on this forum but you're running out of wit old chap. Sort yourself out or be removed.


ps TXT speak is the work of Satan and poor spelling and grammar a sad reflection of the modern world. We have no option but to tolerate it all I'm afraid. Posters should be warned though that in the eyes of a good many readers their postings look weak and odious if they are full of txt speak. You'll get fewer responses and less advice. Learn to right well and correctly as a matter of course (and to type well) and it will pay great dividends throughout your life.

[Kelly Hopper]

Why are they having a go at you Weasley? I have always found your posts to be intelligent, informative, honest and useful. Is it 'cos you is Welsh? :eek:

I suspect however it is because you are displaying a black and white view of the state of the industry and that is not what many want to hear? The FACT is this industry has been sliding into a crevace for a decade or more and it is now on its knees! Burying your head in the sand will not change that.

There are now, and will be for the foreseeable future, many more licence holders than jobs. That means many will never work in the industry. That is a very sad state of affairs. And the numbers are increasing daily! Choosing to ignore it doesn't change it however.

Having good personal skills may put you one step ahead of the next guy. Not having them never will. So while there are many who seem to relish the idea that lack of spelling and grammer skills is something to be proud of and is simply not important I support you. It means I am already in front.

[Mikehotel152]

Verbal Reasoning and Vocabulary were two of the most highly correlated test scores with success on the course.

which is precisely why BA and, I expect, the other major airlines, include verbal reasoning tests and HR interviews in their recruitment, whether for cadets, FOs or Captains.

[2098]

ps TXT speak is the work of Satan and poor spelling and grammar a sad reflection of the modern world. We have no option but to tolerate it all I'm afraid. Posters should be warned though that in the eyes of a good many readers their postings look weak and odious if they are full of txt speak. You'll get fewer responses and less advice. Learn to right well and correctly as a matter of course (and to type well) and it will pay great dividends throughout your life.


No ones perfect ey old boy? ;)

[Desk-pilot]

Earlier in this thread people challenged my view that the working hours in this job are becoming a joke.

Well, just to give you some insight I am on home standby today but this has been shortened from 7 hours to 4 and a half due to the fact that my duty hours were projected to exceed legal max by end next week (92.5 hours in a fortnight duty!!) against a legal max of 90. SO far this week I have spent the whole week on lates finishing around 10.30pm and starting around 2pm. This means I have not spent a single evening with my family, having a BBQ with a beer in my hand in 5-6 days - you know the kind of stuff that ordinary workers in banks, shops, offices etc take for granted as something they can do everynight!

I'm just pointing out that flying is of course more fun than being in an office all day BUT IT ISN'T MORE FUN THAN HAVING A BBQ AND A BEER WITH YOUR FAMILY!!

Just a reality check for those wannabes who only see the Raybans and the shiny jets - there's a downside to this job too and it's not one that really hits you until you've been doing it a while.

Right I'm off to cut the lawn, and take wife and Daughter out for a cycle before the standby starts!


PS WWW IS absolutely right that written and verbal communication is essential in this job - you won't command much respect with your peers on the flightdeck if you're illiterate!

[Kelly Hopper]

Desk-pilot.
Yes that is awful. But never mind. Just think of all that free time you get in this career when you are able to BBQ and Beer everyday due years of unemployment!
It's feast or famine eh?

[TurboJ]

I am on home standby today but this has been shortened from 7 hours to 4 and a half

You poor thing - a 4hr day in the office spent at home - must be tough.

SO far this week I have spent the whole week on lates finishing around 10.30pm and starting around 2pm.

Sounds like you need a lie down in a darkened room - 8.5hrs a day.

At least when you land its home time - not like getting an emergency call at 10.25pm that keeps you on duty another six hours.

....and what about the regular 4 days off - do office workers enjoy that -

Some people need a wake up call to remind themselves how fortunate they are and how the other half live.

400 hours on a 737 gets you nothing even though it has been earned and not paid for.

What do you want your 400hrs to count for? Someone else to hand you a job?

Luck favours those with an opportune mind. Stick with it. Its an adventure - if it was easy, everyone would be doing it!

[James D]

Desk-Pilot;

That’s sounds like a very cushy lifestyle; I'd take that over spending 10-12hrs chained to a desk staring at screens each day. I assume in the 3-4 days you have off after your 5-6 on you can beer and BBQ until your hearts content?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Irony 2098, irony.

Clear Prop!!! - BTW which were my over exaggerated claims on house price deflation or oil prices again? I quite like being held to my record. I dislike being held to your fantasy record. Do you not recall quite a bit of flak I coped for saying that the oil price was both a sideshow and a bubble? Do you refute my predicition in 2007 of a major house price crash in 2008/09? Do you not believe the scale of the fall or the timing was accurately predicted by me in the face of vociferous protest?


Ah, But I forget. You've popped up here every couple of months to either call me a doom monger or an arrogant tosser.



I *passionately* care about the plight of Wannabes. For not one penny of personal gain. You?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You could read my dissertation if I could be bothered to go into the attic and find it.

It just turned out that measuring 16 year olds range of vocabulary correlated very strongly (0.91 from memory) with the ease, speed and grade at which they passed a course to go First Solo on a Grob 109b motor glider. Same for verbal reasoning but very slightly less strong correlation. Ditto for spelling ability.

Obviously the language skills are not directly useful in what is a process and motor skill based program of learning. They are a merely a proxy for the undefinable 'pilot aptitude' when it comes to 16 year olds and going solo in a motor glider. Why being good at crosswords at 16 means you are good at learning to fly is a puzzle to which there is no answer.

Anyway - epic thread creep.

I can fully understand people regretting starting pilot training. Seen it many times before. Even if you can afford to keep your rating current you'll be as rusty as an old Cortina in a year and after a couple of years your CV will look like one big training risk.

Once you finish flying training you're a newly baked cake. You go stale just the same. And there are fresh cakes coming out of the oven every other week.

Not nice, is it?

[G SXTY]

Write out 100 times:

(a) Timing is everything in this game.

(b) Now is a terrible time to train.

[TurboJ]

Finishing training now is probably not the best time but starting training now to finish in 18months - 2yrs is possibly good timing.

[AlphaMale]

I hope Turbo is right on this one and G SXTY is wrong here.

Half way through my PPL and after looking at this thread (JOB SEEKERS, ADD YOUR DETAILS HERE) (http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/341381-job-seekers-add-your-details-here-other-threads-will-locked.html) I too get these days where I wonder if I'm doing the right thing in spending £40k+ on aviation training where it could be better spent on a wedding / money for the kids to go to Uni / A bigger house etc.

I could go in to contracting in IT and earn some serious cash but hate the job Mon - Fri 9-5 but really love the weekends flying my own light aircraft where I want, or I could bite the bullet and spend the £40k on training that may never lead to a job :(

The guys below have posted in the thread above have for example:

B737 EFIS/NG/BBJ Captain available.
19,000 hours. 11,000 command EFIS/NG.
Extensive International experience.
53 years old. ICAO license.
Will go anywhere at short notice.

and another ....

TT 8,000hr 7,000 multi jet
Currently G5/550 F/o (prob. not for much longer)
4,000hr B747 400
1,200hr A320/1
1,000hr B737 (incl NG)
Also Avro 146 and ATP
JAA ATPL
UK resident.


That is my competition if I finished my training today! And Ronand that's your competition now.

I'd estimate I could have my fATPL in summer 2011 if all goes to plan, I just hope to God these guys in the job seekers thread have got jobs by then or have given up trying. I'd happily go to Maun for 2 or 3 years (well I'd love it and the misis would hit the roof).

... tempted to delay starting my ATPL GS in Jan '10 for maybe 6 months or so or I take full advantage of the 18 months time available to me.

[Desk-pilot]

Well guys at my company we don't ever get 4 days off as a weekend - that's Easyjet I think!

My roster is typically 5 on 2 off or 6 on 3 off. Bear in mind too that the weekend is shortened by the fact you always finish on a late getting home after 11pm and your first day of work will always be an early starting around 6am. So your two day weekend feels more like one and a half.

I really do think judging by some of the posts on here that some of you are delusional. The reality is that airline pilots did indeed enjoy rather more time off than the average worker, however if you're in the loco scheduled sector (and the reality is that is where most of you will end up) you will work pretty darned hard for your money.

I am on a day off today (one of my two this week) and it's not so great being off when the rest of your family aren't.

I'm most definately NOT trying to put you off this career and I'm not looking for anyone to feel sorry for me. I am however trying to give you an insight into the real life of an airline pilot - something I'd have loved someone to do when I was training. I'm also hopefully offering some consolation to some of you who haven't got a job yet - there are benefits to a 9-5 desk job too - like being around for your family when they're around...

Ask yourself why so many pilots end up divorced...

And it's isn't just because our world is full of 22 year old nymphomaniac hosties with pneumatic breasts!!

[TurboJ]

I really do think judging by some of the posts on here that some of you are delusional.

Having come into flying from another profession, I can assure you that I work far less for considerably more money - and that is not taking into account my earning potential as a Captain or Trainer. Tell me what other job can have me sat on standby watching the tennis, ready to crack open the beer as soon as 4pm arrives?

I'm not sure it makes that much sense as a career nowadays compared to some of the better alternatives.


So what are the better alternatives. In 2009 Britain, most jobs incorporate some sort of unsociable hours, not just flying. So what are these great alternatives??????????????:cool:

Its easy to think that there are better jobs out there until you go off and do them and then realise that what you had was ok to start with ?? Grass and greener springs to mind.

At least your home on your days off and not working for a cowboy outfit that says you have to have your days off down route or refuses to position you home for your days off !!

You're not the only one who misses their family when working, but unfortunately unsociable hours seems to be the norm in almost most walks of life;

and another thing.............I don't see many 9-5 Dads in the playground picking their kids up from school - having days off during the week is great to have time to yourself, do your own thing, go to the gym/shops when they are quiet and do the school runs etc etc ............:D

I'm not looking for anyone to feel sorry for me.

We're not.

Ask yourself why so many pilots end up divorced...

Cos they can't keep it in their pants.

[qatarstudent]

Half way through my PPL and after looking at this thread (JOB SEEKERS, ADD YOUR DETAILS HERE) (http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/341381-job-seekers-add-your-details-here-other-threads-will-locked.html) I too get these days where I wonder if I'm doing the right thing in spending £40k+ on aviation training where it could be better spent on a wedding / money for the kids to go to Uni / A bigger house etc.

I could go in to contracting in IT and earn some serious cash but hate the job Mon - Fri 9-5 but really love the weekends flying my own light aircraft where I want, or I could bite the bullet and spend the £40k on training that may never lead to a job

don't forget than before this crisis(2007-2008), it was still very hard to find a job. There were more interviews going on I agree, but it didn' mean airlines were desperate for pilots.
now you chance to find a job are quasi nul, in 2007 you needed to have 1500htt, 500h jet time.
about flight instructor?, forget it. You dont make a living by working week end and summer.
I would keep the money for a house, a better life, and keep flying for fun during week end, and I will look at what's going on in 2-3 years, and stay cool and relax, when others are stressing to get finished and then realize this market is already filled with desperated low time pilots of pre-2009 crisis.

and 9 to 5???it's holyday everyday in your office? , it's going to be 5am to 10 pm. Duty time is 16 hours in the airlines.They ask you to wake up at 3 am to be at the airport at 5 am for the first flight at 6 am. Most of the time , you see the sunrise in your cockpit, and sunset in your cockpit too.
Forget about kids, wife, friends, house,...

maybe I am wrong, but I bet I am right. Guys starting their training now, will find themself competing with experienced pilots in 2 years.

[Desk-pilot]

TurboJ,

You are right that an uncalled standby is a thing of beauty but I'm afraid terms and conditions vary greatly across the industry. I gather you are with the big orange bird while I fly turboprops for a large UK carrier. I would argue that your company are probably a level up from mine in terms of pay and rations and this goes some way to explaining our different perceptions.

As an example Your uplift as SFO is £10k per annum, mine is £500
Your roster is 5/3 5/4 ours is 5/2 6/3
Your base salary as a SFO in say year 2 or 3 is likely to be £45k, mine is £29k
Your duty pay is paid at £15 a sector, mine is £1.91 an hour so you make £7500 a year on top of salary while I make £2000-£3000.

It's a very very big difference indeed depending upon who you work for!!

I'd be very interested to get an idea of your rosters so we can compare workload offline if you'd care to PM me!

No offence intended by the way - though we work for rival outfits it is interesting to compare notes as professional aviators.

Hope you're enjoying the tennis!

[liam548]

TurboJ

Mmm I wonder what job you had before, sounds a lot like mine now.

An interesting thread this and one that gets me thinking. I am coming to the end of my PPL now and need to decide on what course of action to take next. Currently in a secure £30k+ a year job in the police with very few travelling expenses. I find the job easy though and it would also be easy for me to sit back and stick with what I am doing but..


I long to fly for a living.

[JB007]

Desk-pilot

When I flew the turbo-prop, my life was just the same as yours, it's standard bottom of the food chain stuff! My employer knew there were lots of low-houred guys wanting your's/my seat if you don't!

I could have moved onto jets about 18 months earlier than I did (assuming i'd have been offered the job of course) but the only major recruitment based on my experience at the time was easyJet and their TRSS scheme - only one step off the bottom of the food chain!

I held out for big holiday company and big T&C's, it worked, in fact, due to a merger, 3 years down the line my T&C's improved again!

It's a very very big difference indeed depending upon who you work for!!
Yep - very basically: I don't do Standby's, I sell my days off back for extra dosh; I get 11-13 days off a month; I'm home every night with one deep night flight on average every 6 weeks (seems base dependant); I get sector pay AND flight pay; I have more leave than I know what to do with; only a year 4 FO, my P60 said I earn't in-excess of £60k; naturally my summer's are busy, my winters are in need of a serious hobby - yearly hours probably 600-700 - about what I was doing on a turbo-prop!!!!

It simply doesn't get any better, will it last? I personally doubt it! Will I have a job in 12 months? Hope so, but who knows - could lose a lot of the above to keep my job! Every man's grass and all that...

You've got a good job, it is very different depending on which market sector you're employed in but when the time comes be choosy, you'll be well placed.
As an aside, after a few years of following a 'magenta line', I guarantee you'll be missing your turbo-prop and spending your new found wealth at the flying club or on aircraft shares...!!!!!!

[Desk-pilot]

JB007,

Many thanks for your kind words, it is indeed reassuring to hear that there are still quality outfits out there who remunerate well and where you feel you have a sensible work life balance.

I didn't realise you had worked on turboprops too and it's interesting to hear that you still miss the more hands on aspects of flying them - I can see how that might be the case even from my current seat. The sectors are short and busy, the views are often nice because we fly so low and to be fair this is by far the most enjoyable job I have ever had and to be fair the company have a very nice culture. I just suspected that there are better terms and conditions and lifestyle options out there - and well, the jets look so darned sexy!

Anyway, nobody's going anywhere at the moment but really appreciated your insight all the same!

Lets hope the economy picks up and all our jobs and airlines are safe - out of interest are you finding bookings holding up pretty well? To be fair ours seem to be doing OK - still anticipating a profit this year and the flights have reasonable loads. If you didn't read the papers you'd never guess there was a recession on! I have a theory too that people will still book their Summer week in Tenerife or whatever anyway unless they have lost their job because they've come to expect one sun holiday a year and need the boost it provides so I'm imagining you guys are holding up pretty well.

[G SXTY]

The last few posts are very useful for anyone wanting an insight into airline life, and the large variations of pay and lifestyle within the profession. I work for the same outfit as Desk-pilot, flying the same turboprop, and would agree with everything he says.

Until recently I worked at a small base where everyone knew each other and got on well, where the social life was great, I had more standbys and free time than I knew what to do with, and the 'commute' was a 20 minute drive through the countryside followed by a 5 minute walk to the crewroom. Now, for my sins, I'm based at a slightly larger aerodrome just to the north of creepy Crawley. It's a huge and unfriendly place, and I have an hour's drive plus a twenty minute bus ride to the crewroom - if the road is clear. Given that my route involves the Dartford Bridge and a big slice of the M25, that effectively means adding two hours to either end of my working day. (I thought I'd left all that behind when I jacked in the office job in London). My roster is now great for building hours but not so good for looking after the garden - 5/2 and 6/3 mean exactly that, and I'll generally be getting home at midnight on the last day. That's progress for you.

This isn't meant as a whinge - sitting in traffic yesterday, wondering if I'd get to work on time, I thought "I'm really not enjoying this" followed immediately by the thought that I love my job and I know people who'd give body parts to be in my position. Once we're strapped in and taxying, I'm just as happy as I ever was. The point is that once the novelty has worn off, this job is all about quality of life - and there can be huge differences in lifestyle between bases, never mind companies.

[wilky]

well maybe bit off thread here, but I have finally decided to call it a day on beginning flying training, professionally anyway. I really did want this, it has been an ambition for many years. However watching what has happened over the years, seeing how much money people pay for TRSS and the likes, the difficulty in getting a job, and by the looks of it keeping it secure for any length of time, it looks to be far too high a risk for the investment made.

For comparison, I self sponsored myself to train in what I am doing now, working offshore. I would say I invested £3500 in total 3 years ago, Now I work 147 days a year, earn in excess of £50k for that, 2 weeks on/3 weeks off rotation and my job is pretty much secure, if oil companies were making redundancies, I would be last to go, as I'm needed on platform for insurance purposes. My company invest money into my career to advance it, by putting me on expensive courses, in turn I get paid more.

Granted, being away 2 weeks at sea is not the best, but considering I get 3 weeks off after it, it’s not too harsh!

I am now ending my dream to become an airline pilot, quite simply it does not have the appeal it once did, I'm gutted as it's all I wanted to do. But I will continue with PPL and fly for fun, hell I might even buy an older 152 and do a little tour of Europe.

So to all you guys and girls who have finished training and are looking, to the guy and girls who are going through training just now, and too the ones that start soon then I wish you all the very best and sincerely hope it picks up for you soon and conditions improve.

It’s a shame it’s come to this!

[Kelly Hopper]

Wilky.
It may not seem like it now but you have made a very intellegent, thought out decision. 2 weeks on 3 weeks off for 50k I would sell body parts for!
You have far too much to lose to chance your luck with this game.
Good choice and enjoy the private flying. So much more fun anyway.

[Deep and fast]

Wilky

Feel sorry you're missing out on the dream, but sometimes it's just a nightmare! I've spent two and a half years away from home to get a start in this industry and it has cost me a lot. Both in financial and emotional cost. At the end of the day we go to work to pay the bills and if you like the work you do it's a bonus, but the career is turning into a flying club with people throwing money at companies to provide training as has been said many times. The reality is that once people cannot afford to do this either through lack of bank funding or healthy bank balance, then the time to train has returned and look at it again.

With the current work pattern you have, an instructors ticket would be ideal and believe me it can be great fun and improves the CRM for later.

[betpump5]

Forums are known for their negativity. It is the typical case where if you had a good meal, good flight, good hotel stay you rarely make the effort to visit a forum and impart your appreciation, but if you had a bad experience then one would be quick to tell their friends and everyone about it.

If you go onto the other forums - spectators gallery, questions, tech log, night stop etc, you will see good old banter posts between pilots. You will see how content and happy they are and more importantly, how to rip the p1ss out of each other without being offensive or waking up the moderator. This is the type of talk you get in the cockpit - perhaps not so much in SH flights where a good majority of your time would be spent in a sterile cockpit environment.

The point I am trying to make is that it is not all bad! At a guess, there must be thousands of current pilots on pprune but they are not all here saying how bad the industry is. How many Ryanair pilots are there who come onto this forum slating their company and working conditions? If there are any, I have not read many posts. Whenever I read a post on the wannabe forum slating Ryanair and the like, it is usually from redundant 10'000TT+ pilots who are sick at the fact they can not get a job as Ryanair prefers £30K cadets, or those recently out of Flight Training who can not afford to pay for a Type rating - with Ryanair or otherwise.

I will not blame you guys that I have just mentioned for feeling this way or writing negative comments on the forum. I would feel the same. In fact I do feel the same sometimes. I have been a ppruner for many years under another name. However as I have been flying LH since I was 21, I was starting to get bored - really bored. I've been on the 747 since I was 21. So I became a wannabe just like the rest of you. I made myself a new name and decided to poke around the wannabe forums - just to see what is going around in this world. I need to get the flying bug back!!

Basically, I'm looking for a short haul airline who will value my 10 years of 732, 742F and 744 experience and who will pay for my TR - whilst keeping me on the salary I am on now! The simple truth is that it is not going to happen - purely because of you guys out there - Thanks! And because there is a surplus of "you guys" out there, the T&Cs are low for those type of airlines - not much of a reward after 1-3 years of hard work and circa £70K spent is it?

The negative things you are reading here on pprune really are not the norm in the wider international airline industry - the place where I assume you all want to aspire to. You may well get 10 responses here from current pilots saying I'm talking rubbish but they will just be the 10. Not the Tens of thousands who fly A340s/777s/747s everyday who are happy and content.

The sandpit is the same. You will read negative posts from EK pilots but the same few names crop up again and again. The same with Fragrant Harbour.

The point is once you get to a top notch airline, then things really are as good as JB001 says it is. You get many days off, especially if LH, money is good (not as good as it once was), destinations are good, hotels are good - without giving too much away, 2 nights ago I shared a few drinks with a certain music mogul next to a very fine hotel swimming pool. The negative flip side being that a few weeks ago, I found myself inadvertantly in the same bar as a L.G.B.T meet - not so many "L"s about :suspect: which could have been interesting.

At the moment, the industry is in bad way. But all industries are. Strikes are happening, crime is on the increase, motivation is down and all the usual crap that comes with a recession (I really should stop picking up the Daily Mail once I get to Heathrow). Negativity on pprune is no exception. I just want you all to realise that whilst it may take a long time to get "there", once you are there you really do live the dream everyday - even in a lo-co airline. I've said it before, I have a fair few friends in Ryanair who after being with the company for quite a few years are on excellent pay, lots of hands on flying, tons of T/Os and landings - in short they are loving it. Plus they don't have to wear a pollution mask once they exit the terminal at their home base.

My advice to wannabes reading this particular thread is that use a little bit of sense - especially right now. Don't rush into anything. If you have a job - keep it and go mod. Always have a back-up plan because it could be a good 5 years before airlines mop up redundant experienced pilots. But once you get here, it really is not that bad.

[AlphaMale]

Wilky, why not move on to an 'extended' hour building session to 150TT and 100PIC. If it turns out that FI's will no longer need a CPL, then that may be a good way of spending those 3 weeks at home or at least one of those weeks :ok:

£50k for 2 on / 3 off sounds damn good to me.

Stick around and I hope it all works out for you ... I've not decided yet :rolleyes:

Edit to add: Thanks for your post betpump5 - nice to see some positivity.

[Artie Fufkin]

Having come into flying from another profession, I can assure you that I work far less for considerably more money - and that is not taking into account my earning potential as a Captain or Trainer. Tell me what other job can have me sat on standby watching the tennis, ready to crack open the beer as soon as 4pm arrives?

Absolutely!

Working day today;

Woke up at 8:30, having "been at work" (phone on) for 90 minutes. Got up at 9am, went to the gym, had lunch in town with a mate, now sitting on the sofa watching the tennis with 12 minutes until beer o clock.

Its a great job (we won't mention the 4 sector day tomorrow with a 4:30am wake up).

[oceanhawk]

Well said 'x factor carpark',
It all depends who you work for. I gave up the left seat of the Embraer 145 over 3 years ago for the right seat on the 757/767 for the big hoilday company, even post merger no commands i 've never looked back. P 60 £65000.00 plus PA.At least 12 or more days off each month, sometimes 7 off in a row. No standby at all, cannot start before 6 am after a day off. Sell days off each month for lots of money. More leave than i know what to do with. large chunk of money each year off the family holiday.Twenty year plus increment scale, family health care. The list goes on.
If you are in the game for the right reasons its great.Find the company you want to work for and do n't look back. Never give up.

[craigers37]

Well, almost 11 years later, what do you guys think about becoming a pilot and the aviation industry now?

[Bealzebub]

I think I would say much the same now as I did 11 years ago and 11 years before that. 2009 was just after the “sub-prime” banking crisis and subsequent recession. At the time I didn’t think the future economy would be so fragile that interest rates would still be on the floor (and in some cases below it) over a decade later. Nobody knew what would be the trigger for the next financial crisis but certainly a global pandemic was a readily acknowledged possibility. In 2001 you could theme the financial crisis as “Terrorism, Where aviation provided the dramatic backdrop. In 2008 “Trailer park Mortgages, Lehman brothers, Icelandic banks!” Where aviation was just riding in the wake. In 2020 aviation is the primary bellwether for the crisis in the global economy. Despite the prospect of immunology coming to the near term event rescue, The true economic fallout of this current crisis is only likely to fully manifest itself over the next few years. I doubt it will be pretty?

Recovery and reinflation over the next few years is likely to prove an absolute buyers market for airline managers. Thousands and Thousands of very experienced pilots looking to pick up their careers. Terms and conditions will reflect this reality. Even over the last 11 years the degradation has been evident. If I go back through my shoebox full of payslips the best ones were pre-2008. That isn’t just adjusted for inflation (which has been mercifully weak anyway) but in absolute hard number terms. I find it hard to see any realistic reason why this will reverse anytime soon?

Going back 20 years (on these forums) there was much moaning about airlines “ bonding” people for training costs, with much discussion on walking away from these bonds and “what could the airlines do about it?” Well...... the answer was that they said “ we won’t bond you any more, because you can now pay for it yourselves before we will even consider you!” The problem was no longer theirs but yours and your loan companies.

In the foreseeable future, I don’t know know any more than anyone else does. However, airlines are businesses that survive by making a profit. They don’t care about you or your dreams or your problems or what you perceive as fair. You are an input cost. The name of the game is reducing input costs (wherever possible) to the absolute minimum. There is a lot of good experience on the market that can be had cheap. Competing with that is going to be very difficult!

George Santayana’s aphorism is probably as true now as it was over a hundred years ago.

[parkfell]

When I flew the turbo-prop,.......!!

Tragically JB007 (Richard Johnston) was killed on his motorbike v. Car
RTC a couple of years ago.
I flew with him when he first joined Loganair on the Saab 340. Sound chap & a pleasure to fly with.
He was last employed as a Captain with Titan having just transferred from the 757 to the Bus.

Such a waste of talent.

[redsnail]

Hi Parkfell, oh bloody hell, I didn't know that. Gutted. :(

[ShyTorque]

craigers37

I’m one of the lucky ones. I was first paid to fly in late 1976 (RAF). I’ve stayed in the industry ever since. Although I’ve never chased the airline route and the bigger money, I’ve never done a ground job since then, never been unemployed and I’ve never paid for a type rating. I’ll be hanging up my flying kit in the next couple of years. I have no plans to fly for recreation after that.

I’m sad to say that I think the best days of aviation have gone. None of my offspring have gone into the aviation business and I’m quite relieved that they haven’t.

If I had my own time again I wouldn’t change a thing but my advice to anyone wanting a good career is to go into engineering. There’s a worldwide shortage of engineers and a surplus of pilots.