View Full Version : CPP: open for all nationalities!


stoneage
18th Jun 2009, 02:54
Just checked the Cathay website and it seems HKID or PR is no longer a requirement for the CPP programme.



misu11
18th Jun 2009, 04:11
It is very sad to most HK Wannabes.

holdmetight
18th Jun 2009, 04:27
It is very sad to most HK Wannabes.

if you make the grade and have the potential they are looking for, you will make it in, regardless of who else applies and where they come from.

.air
18th Jun 2009, 05:22
can i become Cathay Cadet Pilot,i have 600 hours on single engines?

flynhigh
18th Jun 2009, 06:17
Quick question... I dont understand why are they hiring Cadet when they can just hire SO and save money on training. Thanks.

stoneage
18th Jun 2009, 06:36
I dont think CX will make space for you OGI.. but im guessing you have to show them youre capable and most importantly that you can stand out from the rest (which will be alot harder with tens of thousands more applicants from around the world) e.g. Etihad CPP.

Definitely interesting times..and I think a very clever strategy. As a result, I can see that the DESO could be a thing of the past for this airline.

.air
18th Jun 2009, 06:47
Fly and High i don't understand that too...There are so many out there with hundreds of hours on single engine and multi.CPL/Ir etc etc.

What are the req of converting any ICAO license to Hong Kong License?

misu11
18th Jun 2009, 07:41
quote: if you make the grade and have the potential they are looking for, you will make it in, regardless of who else applies and where they come from.

holdmetight:

Yes, I agree with you. If you have the potential, you will make it.

Why don't Qantas do the same programme? I have seen many airline only taken their locals to the cadet program like QF, MH. For others airline, like SQ, the requirement are different from local cadet and overseas cadet.

For what I mention, It is very sad to Hong Kong Wannabe because Cathay is a brand of Hong Kong's Airline, they have promoted for many years how they support the locals, but now, majority of pilot are expats and they are starting to promote this international cadetship. What's the fake image of Hong Kong's Airline? They are taking advantages from HK, but they do not do their duty. The HK government is not supporting HK labours as well. It is very hard to get a job in this environment, especially in aviation. We are 2nd priority in overseas, but We are not the 1st priorty in HK as well. It's very upset to HK wannabes.

EPASZ
18th Jun 2009, 09:56
Im sure we all see why CX made this move. Because now that it is open to everyone....CX has the excuse to put everyone of them on cheap labor (since all on local terms, no housing n all the other expat benefits, imagine how much the company could save over ur entire career in CX compare to the pity little training fee they helped u pay during ur training in Adelaide)...you think that's a good thing for the expats who has spent years of accumulating hours to try to get a job in CX? U think this is a good thing for all the HK people out there who has a dream for flying? i dont think so...

Please dont make it sound like this is a good thing...because it isn't

oopsars
18th Jun 2009, 10:58
Cathay saves alot of money by extending the number of cadets is their own business,every airline wants to save as much as the can.

As it's been said, if you're qualified,and have the potential to be their pilot, you will get in straight forward,no matter where you are from.So it does not really affect any one from HK,as you are only competing to yourself,against the airline's standard.

holdmetight
18th Jun 2009, 11:26
cathay is hong kong's flagship airline but that doesn't mean they are a charity organization.

for those of you who have no idea how an airline runs, take a long, hard look at what is happening now. in airlines all around the world, everything is about COST CUTTING. its a basic yet vital principle that decides which airline can live through the night and which shrivel up and die. all airlines do it, from LCCs to premium carriers, though their measures vary for obvious reasons. cathay is no exception. it does not matter how much marketing you do or what kind of image your carrier has amongst the locals. if you do not put cost-cutting as an important priority, you will lose money. that is a fact.

as some have pointed out earlier, cathay can save bucketloads of cash by employing more pilots on local contracts. since cathay cannot seem to find enough people in HKG who are interested (and able) to become cadets they are starting to look all over the globe.

as for cadet applications, i don't feel anyone has a priority over anyone else. as i pointed out earlier, it doesn't matter who your fellow candidates are, where they come from or how many of them there are. if you're good enough, you'll make it.

IMHO the point of the new cadet program is to train new pilots from scratch, or from very low hours onwards. the program wouldn't be aimed at recruiting experienced expatriate pilots with thousands of hours, simply because the terms and conditions on offer wouldn't be attractive. i guess cathay want to find people with limited levels of flying experience, so:
1. they wouldn't mind a lower pay check in exchange for the chance to fly a jet
2. ab-initio or low hour pilots would have a better reception of cathay SOPs and company culture acceptance

as for Qantas... australia is brimming with low-hour pilots, most of which are devoid of job-hunting opportunities due to the economic recession. even when the economy wasn't that bad, we still had a sufficient amount of pilots to fly the punters around. why would QF or any australian airline need to recruit people from overseas when there are so many local people who would love to (and are able to) have a shot at flying their jets?

EPASZ
18th Jun 2009, 12:09
Still dont see the point? Cathay didn't make this move because they wanna welcome people to join their big family...they make this move because they welcome people to come and save money for the company.

Cathay is suppose to be a symbol of Hong Kong and should be supporting local employment...but they've just taken away the only thing HK wannabe pilots dream about by bringing in outsiders. Do u know why Taiwanese and Singaporian locals dont feel too worried about not getting a job back at their home country? Its because their very own country airline support local pilot cadetship. Im not saying Cathay should convert into a 100% local pilot airline...but at least...give those locals better chance by closing the competition to only the HKers.

People say it is not a competition...in fact what job out there doesn't have competition? What interview doesn't have competition? What u trying to tell me is to believe Cathay recruitment process is not consider competition BECAUSE IT IS CATHAY? Think about it this way...you go and apply for a job in XX company...and at the same time other people applied...at the end u didn't get the job...do u think u didn't get the job because u didn't meet XX company standard? Or u think the company took a person better than u?

If u think it is because u didn't meet company standard...then maybe Cathay should just publish a personal standard checklist (they should if it is all about standards) and u just tick the box and make sure u meet the standards so Cathay could take u in without a question. And if they dont...then maybe it is really competition...

Ask those people who have received a rejection letter...im sure most of them would say they didn't get in because there are better candidates out there...

holdmetight
18th Jun 2009, 12:33
Still dont see the point? Cathay didn't make this move because they wanna welcome people to join their big family...they make this move because they welcome people to come and save money for the company.

Cathay is suppose to be a symbol of Hong Kong and should be supporting local employment...but they've just taken away the only thing HK wannabe pilots dream about by bringing in outsiders. Do u know why Taiwanese and Singaporian locals dont feel too worried about not getting a job back at their home country? Its because their very own country airline support local pilot cadetship. Im not saying Cathay should convert into a 100% local pilot airline...but at least...give those locals better chance by closing the competition to only the HKers.

cathay is indeed meant to be the symbol of hong kong. but that doesn't mean they are exempt from trying to save costs. like i said before, running an airline is all about maximizing profits by either increasing profits or reducing costs, or both. in the light of such a poor economy, i'd say cost cutting is much more feasible towards helping the airline survive. this is a fact, whether you like it or not. you may still be in dreamland about how cathay serves hong kong, how they work for the benefits of the hong kong youths who wants to be pilots, etc... but at the end of the day, you have to look at the reality. if they don't look at cost-cutting measures, how will they survive?

you mentioned how singapore and taiwan can afford to close people out from other nationalities. i don't think you can compare singapore/taiwan to the situation in hong kong. for a myriad of reasons, a lot less people in hong kong are interested in aviation than in singapore and taiwan. if cathay only recruits out of hong kong, how are they going to get a substantial amount of cadets in to start saving up the bucks? for this reason it is sensible for cathay to open up their money-saving cadetship to candidates around the world, because the more cadets they recruit, the more money they save in aircrew renumeration in the long run.

People say it is not a competition...in fact what job out there doesn't have competition? What interview doesn't have competition? What u trying to tell me is to believe Cathay recruitment process is not consider competition BECAUSE IT IS CATHAY? Think about it this way...you go and apply for a job in XX company...and at the same time other people applied...at the end u didn't get the job...do u think u didn't get the job because u didn't meet XX company standard? Or u think the company took a person better than u?

If u think it is because u didn't meet company standard...then maybe Cathay should just publish a personal standard checklist (they should if it is all about standards) and u just tick the box and make sure u meet the standards so Cathay could take u in without a question. And if they dont...then maybe it is really competition...

let's put it this way.

cadet pilots save money because they are given local contracts that exempt the company from paying large sums of money for housing/educational/medical allowances. therefore cadet pilots have a higher priority in recruitment over a DESO/DEFO. this is evident as you can see, the Direct Entry pilot recruitment has closed while cadets are still being recruited.

whether you believe it or not, cathay will actually want more cadet pilots. if you meet the criteria, you can get trained. as long as you are good enough to fly their planes, why would they kick you? this is a cost-cutting exercise that benefits the company in the long run. there will be new aircraft coming into the cathay fleet, all of which need pilots. aircrew ranks will still have its normal cycle of attrition, with old pilots retiring or resigning or whatever. new pilots will still be needed. if these new pilots were all put on local contracts (i.e. these pilots were ex-cadets), do you think the company would save a lot of money on the long run?

comprende?

you are right when you said that rejected applicants would think the company selected someone better than themselves. this was the case for me. but had my competitor and i made the grade together, we would have both become cathay pilots at the same date.

.air
18th Jun 2009, 14:45
When a cadet pilot graduates and joins Cathay ,is the Salary very different from a DESO?A cadet pilot after graduation is also serving as a So so why salary is diff.

I am not a hong kong resident then why will i not be given a housing allowance if i start serving Cathay after graduating as a cadet pilot?

DMN
18th Jun 2009, 16:56
You get no expat benefits. When and if you make pic then you get a reduced housing allowance. Good luck!

.air
18th Jun 2009, 17:30
How much is the difference in Salary .In USD please.;)

holdmetight
18th Jun 2009, 17:39
i think the local salary is about half the amount of the expat package. i stand for correction though.

wskwong
18th Jun 2009, 18:46
How does allowing foreign candidates save the company money? I thought if you hire locally then you save money on housing allowance. Has the policy changed that if the cadet is from overseas then there won't be any housing allowance at all? What would be the difference between an oversea cadet and a local one?

To be honest, jobs like this people would almost do it for free :} Unless you get into SO or FO, and if the wage is still uncompetitive, then pilots would start thinking about leaving.

And is the contact/term really harsh? Sounds like most of you are n't happy about this change? (or if there's a change at all. All they did was remove the term "HK residents" on the homepage. It might still be a required field on the online application?)

wskwong
18th Jun 2009, 18:57
btw, my standpoint is that it's not a competition either. As a cathay passenger myself, I would want qualifying pilots in the cockpit rather than people who barely qualify because cathay cannot find better ones. :) If i go for the interview and fail, then I am happy knowing that I am not suitable for the job.

7500_7700
18th Jun 2009, 20:09
I believe Cathay Pacific doesn't symbolize Hong Kong Airline at all. It's found by an Australian and an American who started an airline based in Hong Kong.
Even now, most upper level managers are not even Chinese... So what makes it a Hong Kong Airline? I believe CX wanted to hire cadets from foreign country for the longest time.
"ps, lots of cadets are Eurasian, or ABC (American born chinese),or CBC (Canadian born chinese) anyways...'

ftp
18th Jun 2009, 21:26
Just Curious. Have any expat cadets been called for an interview yet?

Dan Buster
19th Jun 2009, 02:22
How does allowing foreign candidates save the company money? I thought if you hire locally then you save money on housing allowance. Has the policy changed that if the cadet is from overseas then there won't be any housing allowance at all? What would be the difference between an oversea cadet and a local one?

ALL cadets will be hired on a local contract so no housing benefits for your enitire career (until you make command and then at reduced levels).

The race to the bottom continues.

misu11
19th Jun 2009, 04:03
Firstly, there are lot of people interested in aviation in hong kong. there are lot of people self sponsered to get the license. but what is the result? most of the people are flying in GA or airline in overseas. don't they want to get in CX? they have tried but kicked out by CX with unknown reason. if you guys say if you met the standard, you would get in. so how come there are lot of people kicked out by CX? don't they know how to fly the aircraft? what is the most important duty of pilot? It is safe to fly to the destination. I think they have shown, otherwise they don't even get a job in overseas.


I believe Cathay Pacific doesn't symbolize Hong Kong Airline at all. It's found by an Australian and an American who started an airline based in Hong Kong.
Even now, most upper level managers are not even Chinese... So what makes it a Hong Kong Airline? I believe CX wanted to hire cadets from foreign country for the longest time.
"ps, lots of cadets are Eurasian, or ABC (American born chinese),or CBC (Canadian born chinese) anyways...'


Please read their website, read how CX do the promotion. If you go to ask anyone in Hong kong" what is the symbol airline in Hong Kong", Majority of people will say CX in 1st mind. same as you are asking same question to australian. they would answer you QF. would you think people will answer virgin blue or jet star in their 1st mind. CX is the symobol of Hong Kong Airline defineity.

As your mentioned, lot of cadets are ABC or CBC. but the point is, they have HK PR ID card. At least they or their family had contribution in Hong Kong. But now, what is the contribution with these international cadet? I can say, have you ever been in hong kong?

If CX want to save money, why don't CX follow QF or other airline? pay part of their own training fee. even though people pay their training fee, I would say lot of hong kong wannabe will still go.


as for Qantas... australia is brimming with low-hour pilots, most of which are devoid of job-hunting opportunities due to the economic recession. even when the economy wasn't that bad, we still had a sufficient amount of pilots to fly the punters around. why would QF or any australian airline need to recruit people from overseas when there are so many local people who would love to (and are able to) have a shot at flying their jets?


In austraila, you guys have other step to fly in GA, but what's about in hong kong? We don't have such opporunity to fly GA in Hong Kong. We have to find the job in overseas. Would we have same equal opporunity with the local to get a job in overseas?

The fact that it is open to everyone now won't hurt your chances.
There is no competition in the selection process between candidates. Cathay has a real hard time finding suitable candidates for the CPP, and has no quotas. It's wrong to see it as competition.


If there are more and more interviewees, they are all met the standard. would you think they don't do any selection? the cake has limited in size, but more people to eat, the chance to eat will be smaller.

I wouldn't think to this way, but CX expats pilot want their kids to get in CX, but actually they are not HK PR, so they may change the policy to accept anyone in whole world to put their kids in.


international cadet is trying taken our opporunity and our dream.

holdmetight
19th Jun 2009, 04:41
Firstly, there are lot of people interested in aviation in hong kong. there are lot of people self sponsered to get the license. but what is the result? most of the people are flying in GA or airline in overseas. don't they want to get in CX? they have tried but kicked out by CX with unknown reason. if you guys say if you met the standard, you would get in. so how come there are lot of people kicked out by CX? don't they know how to fly the aircraft? what is the most important duty of pilot? It is safe to fly to the destination. I think they have shown, otherwise they don't even get a job in overseas.

there are two things you must understand.

1. you may be suitable to be a pilot but it does NOT mean you are suitable to become a cadet. being a cadet pilot for an airline like cathay or singapore means you are being fast-tracked into operating a jet aircraft, which is something that anyone else would only achieve after thousands of hours of experience in GA or turboprop RPT. this also means that you must be able to learn at a quicker rate and be able to produce the exact result and show the same maturity that your expatriate colleague may have taken thousands of hours to learn. that is why many people who were rejected by CX for their cadet program end up flying in GA and eventually join airlines elsewhere. capiche?

2. i want to apologize for speaking like the CX flight recruitment ALWAYS get things right. in fact, they do not, which is quite normal because nothing is perfect. they have, at times, recruited unsuitable people who in the end, just waste company resources because they were unable to achieve the required standard. because of this possible error in recruitment, i am sure they would rather be more cautious in their approach. obviously if they are sure you can get in, then you do. but if there is any shred of doubt, my guess is that they would rather leave you out than take you. for that reason, perhaps you feel you may have made the grade, but then again... you could have failed for a myriad of reasons. that's just how the game is played.

I believe Cathay Pacific doesn't symbolize Hong Kong Airline at all. It's found by an Australian and an American who started an airline based in Hong Kong.
Even now, most upper level managers are not even Chinese... So what makes it a Hong Kong Airline? I believe CX wanted to hire cadets from foreign country for the longest time.
"ps, lots of cadets are Eurasian, or ABC (American born chinese),or CBC (Canadian born chinese) anyways...'

cathay pacific, as pointed out by misu11, definitely is the airline of Hong Kong, for the reasons he/she pointed out. however one must remember that cathay pacific is OWNED by Swire, which is a very british company. need i say more?

As your mentioned, lot of cadets are ABC or CBC. but the point is, they have HK PR ID card. At least they or their family had contribution in Hong Kong. But now, what is the contribution with these international cadet? I can say, have you ever been in hong kong?

If CX want to save money, why don't CX follow QF or other airline? pay part of their own training fee. even though people pay their training fee, I would say lot of hong kong wannabe will still go.

the contribution for these expatriate cadets is that they are willing to fly these aircraft for a minimal wage.
i am sure that if CX wanted people to pay for (part of) their own training then a lot less hong kong locals would show up. given the price of flight training (flying costs, equipment, accomodation, medicals, visas, you name it) the average hong kong family would not be able to afford such an expensive endeavour. which is why the cathay cadetship is so attractive to people in the first place.

In austraila, you guys have other step to fly in GA, but what's about in hong kong? We don't have such opporunity to fly GA in Hong Kong. We have to find the job in overseas. Would we have same equal opporunity with the local to get a job in overseas?

to be honest, if you are not a local australian, applying for a job here is close to impossible. and that goes for any decent job, not just flying ones. as for local flying jobs in hong kong, the cathay cadetship is still open to those who are able to get in. what has changed?

If there are more and more interviewees, they are all met the standard. would you think they don't do any selection? the cake has limited in size, but more people to eat, the chance to eat will be smaller.

I wouldn't think to this way, but CX expats pilot want their kids to get in CX, but actually they are not HK PR, so they may change the policy to accept anyone in whole world to put their kids in.


look at the future. the economy follows a cyclic pattern, as you may already know. while we are in recession now, with flights being grounded and pilots not needed, the economy will eventually pick up. aircraft will be delivered and these will need good pilots to fly them. as i mentioned in an earlier post, if cathay could employ them all on a local contract then it would help them save money. this is, in fact, baking more cakes for all those wannabes out there, right?

i suspect the children of expat pilots in HKG are the last thing cathay are thinking about right now.

holdmetight
19th Jun 2009, 04:49
by the way, in case any of you wondered...

i don't support either stance, and am certainly not management. i'm just another player in this game, trying to look at it from a neutral standpoint.

thanks guys, have a good one!

:ok:

7500_7700
19th Jun 2009, 06:07
misu11 (http://www.pprune.org/members/195316-misu11),
Don't get me wrong here, I support your argument.
I feel disappointed at CX for opening the cadet program for all nationalities.
That is the reason why i point out CX doesn't really support HK and do not deserve the title "Hong Kong Airlines"

But, I do believe CX is a very professional airline, and I go Hong Kong every year with CX.
All I can say is; it doesn't matter if CX opens up for all nationalities, as long as you're sutable, you'll get into the cadet route. If not, take the longer route (Instructor > regional > Airline).

misu11
19th Jun 2009, 07:41
the contribution for these expatriate cadets is that they are willing to fly these aircraft for a minimal wage.
i am sure that if CX wanted people to pay for (part of) their own training then a lot less hong kong locals would show up. given the price of flight training (flying costs, equipment, accomodation, medicals, visas, you name it) the average hong kong family would not be able to afford such an expensive endeavour. which is why the cathay cadetship is so attractive to people in the first place.

CX is a company, they can do the whatever to control their budget. even they are swire group from UK, they still have lot of share holder from HK or China, and they are doing business in Hong Kong. They should take responability to Hong Kong.

What I would point out that CX is wearing a fake mask that CX is supporting HK. As I mentioned, majority airlines are only hiring their local labour. even if airline hire the expat, they would give higher requirment to expat. but CX is not really. they start to employ expat for cadet with same qualification and same priority. Those expats is robbing local worker opporunities.

How many people apply CX cadet program each year? and How many would CX take? Do you think CX has a lot of slot for people to join CX cadet program?
They always mention they cannot get suitable person to cadet in HK, but why do other airline get? such as SQ. Do HK applicants be such fool that unable to become a cadet? However, lot of HK applicants are holding flying license, working airline or GA in overseas. They have a lot of flying experiences. Would they not meet the standard of cadet program? What would the destination of cadet program? It's a pilot. they are repeating their training again.

Now they would take this program to cut the cost, so why don't they give opporunity to those HK applicant to be special cadetship or DESO. As long as they can pass the check ride, they meet the standard, and CX can pay less training for those people. but They didn't.

CX is the a very sizeable company in hongkong, and their decision will affect the Hong Kong labour market.
I won't think there are lack of people who has passion in aviation and can affort the training. As I mentioned, there are a lot of people who pay the their training themselves, and now they are flying in somewhere else.
As you said, If you meet the standard, you can get in. So how come they still are flying in overseas? because CX has no heart to give opporunity to HK labours.

Finally, I am very disappointed to CX international cadet program. and I am very disappointed with government that they do not support HK aviation. They are only say, but they are no action at all. I would say good luck for HK wannabes.

stoneage
19th Jun 2009, 09:18
Misu11. You have some valid points in your argument.

holdmetight wrote:
a lot less people in hong kong are interested in aviation than in singapore and taiwan

what a load of nonsense!

7500_7700 wrote:
longer route (Instructor > regional > Airline).

I dont think that the traditional option is available anymore because it seems that the CPP is the only way in. (which is a bummer for those of us who take the initiative (alternative route of cadet), make the move overseas, and slug it out for the opportunity to come home and fly for our national carrier one day. e.g DESO)

holdmetight
19th Jun 2009, 11:58
what a load of nonsense!


why would this be nonsense? hong kong cannot be compared to singapore and taiwan in terms of aviation culture. if you think about it, it has only been in the recent 4-5 years that local youngsters have begun to consider the possibility of becoming an airline pilot. that's why i said that there are a lot less people in hong kong who are interested in such a career. this is all in contrast to singapore and taiwan, where there has always been a number of chances for youngsters to explore aviation and give them an aspiration towards an airline career.

i am sure that if possible, the cathay recruitment people would love to reserve the right for cadet application to those who hold the little white plastic card we call the HKID. however with the direction the company is going, this is no longer feasible. the cadetship is being open to applicants around the world because there is a shortage of locals in HKG who satisfy BOTH the following criteria:

1. they want to become a cadet pilot
2. they have the ability to become a cadet pilot

i am pretty sure that there are lots of people in HKG who have the ability to learn to fly an aircraft at a decent rate. i am also sure there are loads of people interested in becoming a pilot in hong kong. but how many people fulfill both criteria? can cathay really rely on a purely local source for cadet pilots, if they are planning to shift the balance of future aircrew ranks from the currently direct entry-dominated scenario to an ex-cadet dominated scenario?

try to look at the big picture and think about how the airline can save resources. as i mentioned earlier, profit maximization is very important and determines which airlines can live and which do not. only a significant amount of money in your pocket can allow you to do other things: expansion, fleet renewal, employ more locals, be HKG's flagship, take responsibility to youngsters, so on and so forth. for example, if cathay can save all that money that would have been paid to expat pilots, and puts it all into nurturing more cadets, do you think this would ultimately be beneficial for all the young wannabes in HKG that we constantly speak of?

misu11
19th Jun 2009, 16:15
Hi Guys,

It's not TRUE that HK ID citizens only have cx as thier ONLY way to become a pilot(Got to do your homework guys).Airlines like Singapore Airlines do open up thier cadetship to overseas applicant and HK citizens is eligible as well. How about Cadetship in Etihad? MOre and more airlines are opening up?Have they once talk about " not supporting local jobs " ? The idea is as stated many times in all the post that it really SAVE a lot of money for the company in the long run. You do away with expat benefits in return overseas cadetship work for a minimal wage. WIN WIN Situation here.

You are right, all airlines want to reduce cost, but when they reduce the cost, they do concern about society. like Singapore and Etihad, they are doing an international cadet program, but please check their requirements, those international program are different requirement to expat. They don't open for expat in whole year. and at least they have made some others rules to protect their local labour. But CX, they promote to expat with all the same with local requirement, would you think they protect locals?
as i mentioned in an earlier post, if cathay could employ them all on a local contract then it would help them save money. this is, in fact, baking more cakes for all those wannabes out there, right?

So you think CX can bake as more cake as for all those wannabes? do you think training is free or very less cost to do? 1 pilot to be trained for SO will spend company a more than million. in your concept, 100 people has met the standard, CX should take all the people and spend 100 of million, but there are cutting cost at the same time. would you think this is the conflict?


the cadetship is being open to applicants around the world because there is a shortage of locals in HKG who satisfy BOTH the following criteria:
1. they want to become a cadet pilot
2. they have the ability to become a cadet pilot


Also, as I mentioned there are lot of HK pilots in whole world, if they have no passion, they wouldn't choose to study aviation and get the flying license. The flying license is a good evidence to show they have ability to become a pilot. They even don't not mind to apply cadet pilot program, start from the beginning, but finally they have been kicked out by CX with unknown reason.
They have to implore the pilot job in overseas, keep surviving in aviation.

I would say that because you guys are possibly not a local. and you may have any flying training at all. you wouldn't know how much the training cost.You can't imagine how sad to HK wannabes.

For you guys, it is advantage because you would have chance to have a free training with earning not bad paid. after you guys get what you want to get, you will leave with freeman.

sugizo20
19th Jun 2009, 16:17
I think people who want to be a pilot in HK are miserable. There are so many obstacles on the way to become airlines' pilots. I think a number of aviation enthusiasts feel helpless to have their dream come true.

I have one wish. I want to see there are more and more cadets who were born in HK, educated in HK, and they grow up in HK. They can not only speak native Cantonese, write Chinese and read Chinese but also speak fluent English like British. They are not ABC, BBC or CBC. Their dreams first come from seeing jetliners flying over Kai Tak in Kowloon City. They are passionate about aviation.

They pay double efforts compared with others. If there is one more local cadet, we can see one more local captain in future. Keep it on mates!

misu11
19th Jun 2009, 17:02
It's not TRUE that HK ID citizens only have cx as thier ONLY way to become a pilot(Got to do your homework guys).Airlines like Singapore Airlines do open up thier cadetship to overseas applicant and HK citizens is eligible as well. How about Cadetship in Etihad? MOre and more airlines are opening up?Have they once talk about " not supporting local jobs " ? The idea is as stated many times in all the post that it really SAVE a lot of money for the company in the long run. You do away with expat benefits in return overseas cadetship work for a minimal wage. WIN WIN Situation here.

Yes, you are right. Airlines must do something to control their cost.
but please check those airline requirement, they need higher requirement for expat applicant. Also, their cadet program are not opened to expat in whole year. When they do cost control, they also have set some rules to make different with expat and local to protect their local. When you read about CX requirement, What did they do? Same requirement with local and expat and they are not 1st priority to employ local.
For this size of company, they should have social responability to protect local labour.

i am sure that if possible, the cathay recruitment people would love to reserve the right for cadet application to those who hold the little white plastic card we call the HKID. however with the direction the company is going, this is no longer feasible. the cadetship is being open to applicants around the world because there is a shortage of locals in HKG who satisfy BOTH the following criteria:

1. they want to become a cadet pilot
2. they have the ability to become a cadet pilot

As I mentioned, there are lot of HK pilot who working in overseas. They have flying license which means the have ability to become a pilot. They even do not mind to apply a cadet program, re-do the training, wouldn't they become a cadet pilot?
But finally, they are kicked out by CX with unknown reason. They have to implore a pilot job in overseas. Are they the same of equal opportunity situation with those expat when expat apply CX?

as i mentioned in an earlier post, if cathay could employ them all on a local contract then it would help them save money. this is, in fact, baking more cakes for all those wannabes out there, right?


Yes, it definitely cut cost with local contract in long term. But what i read from yours post, you said if you meet the standard, you get in CX. CX will open a slot for you. Would you think training is free or very little cost? To trained a cadet become SO, it would cost more than million. In your concept 100 people met the standard, CX will train all 100 cadet. How would it cost? 100 of million. CX is cutting cost, would you think this is the conflict? If there is no competition, why do CX do the many stages of interview with you?

I would think you guy are possibly not a local, even you haven't had any flight training at all. You won't know how much the training cost. You won't understand the expectation of HK wannabes themselves and their family when they invested in the training. You won't know much about aviation industry. For you guy, it is advantage as you can have free training with good pay. You can go back your home country with freeman after you get what you want. But for HK wannabes, how sad the story is because of some 1 taking their opportunity?

.air
19th Jun 2009, 20:44
i am 24 years old now,if i get into Cathay i can become a Captain in next 12 years...wow .I am waiting badly for Cathay to call me for the tests.I hope i get lucky ,i have worked so hard but there are so many out there who have worked hard too.The competition is going to be tough..
I want help in preparing for these tests...Specially the English test my grammar is very bad :( .I have no idea about the IQ test. Can any one help me. I can do well in the interview..

any body has an idea how long the tests would take?I am employed and it is going to be difficult for me to stay in Hong Kong for a long time..

Is there any book i must read before going for the test...Does any one know when in which month is the next test?

Is there any one who was selected as a cadet pilot with a lot of experience on single engines??

holdmetight
20th Jun 2009, 04:14
Also, as I mentioned there are lot of HK pilots in whole world, if they have no passion, they wouldn't choose to study aviation and get the flying license. The flying license is a good evidence to show they have ability to become a pilot. They even don't not mind to apply cadet pilot program, start from the beginning, but finally they have been kicked out by CX with unknown reason.
They have to implore the pilot job in overseas, keep surviving in aviation.

to which i will say again,

you may be suitable to be a pilot but it does NOT mean you are suitable to become a cadet. being a cadet pilot for an airline like cathay or singapore means you are being fast-tracked into operating a jet aircraft, which is something that anyone else would only achieve after thousands of hours of experience in GA or turboprop RPT. this also means that you must be able to learn at a quicker rate and be able to produce the exact result and show the same maturity that your expatriate colleague may have taken thousands of hours to learn. that is why many people who were rejected by CX for their cadet program end up flying in GA and eventually join airlines elsewhere.

as i mentioned, the fact that you are passionate in aviation and want to be a pilot, or even have hundreds of hours of flying experience under your belt does NOT mean that you can be a successful cadet pilot. the reasons behind this have been highlighted in my second quote. does that explain why there are so many HKG locals who can't get into the cadet program, but turn out to be successful pilots in their own right later on?

You are right, all airlines want to reduce cost, but when they reduce the cost, they do concern about society. like Singapore and Etihad, they are doing an international cadet program, but please check their requirements, those international program are different requirement to expat. They don't open for expat in whole year. and at least they have made some others rules to protect their local labour. But CX, they promote to expat with all the same with local requirement, would you think they protect locals?

you may be disappointed in CX, but the cost-cutting/profit maximisation game for every single airline around the world is the same. please don't think SQ or EY or any other airline won't come up with measures that benefits the company but "hurts" employees at the same time. like i said before, at the end of the day, it isn't about how many people you can help or charm, but the amount of cash that enters/stays in your pocket that decides which airlines survive and which do not. social responsibility is something that needs to be looked at, i agree, but i certainly don't think it is an ideal that should be followed blindly without considering the times. at the end of the day, if cost-cutting is not looked at and implemented, EVERYONE suffers - including the very locals you speak of. i don't particularly support CX or oppose CX for what they do - this is the game that is being played, and either you are in with it, or you are out.

Yes, it definitely cut cost with local contract in long term. But what i read from yours post, you said if you meet the standard, you get in CX. CX will open a slot for you. Would you think training is free or very little cost? To trained a cadet become SO, it would cost more than million. In your concept 100 people met the standard, CX will train all 100 cadet. How would it cost? 100 of million. CX is cutting cost, would you think this is the conflict? If there is no competition, why do CX do the many stages of interview with you?

in an ideal world where north korea and the US get along, where diamonds can be grown and beer rains from the sky, yes. if suddenly 100 locals turned up, and they all happened to meet the bar that CX has set for recruiting cadets, then for one i am sure CX would try to offer them all training courses. but in reality, does this rosy picture exist?

in terms of numbers, unfortunately no there aren't 100 people every year who meet the bar, certainly not from within HKG anyway. i believe this has been illustrated in the past where cadet populations have always been rather small. but in terms of them taking people they think have potential, certainly. if you meet the high standards they mete out, then you're in. why do you think they have so many stages of tests and interviews? it isn't about giving them the chance to watch applicants slug it out against each other and see who wins, it is to see who can jump the highest and cross the vault bar at the top. does that make sense? so if everyone jumps and crosses the bar, then everyone gets in. unfortunately the number of "everyone" isn't enough to cover the usual number of direct-entry pilots recruited every year, so CX have to look outside of HKG for cadet pilots.

So you think CX can bake as more cake as for all those wannabes? do you think training is free or very less cost to do? 1 pilot to be trained for SO will spend company a more than million. in your concept, 100 people has met the standard, CX should take all the people and spend 100 of million, but there are cutting cost at the same time. would you think this is the conflict?


you keep looking at the figure "100 million". i assure you this cost is a trivial when compared to what expenditures cathay uses on renumeration to all its expatriate pilots. paying "100 million" upfront is definitely a cost saving measure, given the significant difference in expat and locan renumeration in the company.

I would think you guy are possibly not a local, even you haven't had any flight training at all. You won't know how much the training cost. You won't understand the expectation of HK wannabes themselves and their family when they invested in the training. You won't know much about aviation industry. For you guy, it is advantage as you can have free training with good pay. You can go back your home country with freeman after you get what you want. But for HK wannabes, how sad the story is because of some 1 taking their opportunity?

tell you the truth, i am very much a local. i was born in HKG and did all my primary and secondary education in local schools. i can read, speak, write cantonese just as well as any average person in the street. i have had flight training, in fact i am doing some of my own in my spare time away from the university. i am very well aware of the costs of flying training towards a CPL or possibly ATPL-standard. trust me, while i cannot say know a lot about the aviation industry, i believe i know enough about it when i write all these posts on this thread.

i certainly don't agree that for expatriate cadets, this is an opportunity for "free training and good pay". well, certainly not the latter. with no other forms of renumeration outside their basic pay package, these expats are on their own in HKG. they have to pay for their own housing, tax, bills... everything out of their own pocket. in the end, they don't take home a lot of money, and that is only exacerbated when they exchange what remains of their hard-earned cash into the currency they use at home.

as a local i would very much like to see more local pilots flying the line for CX. i guess utopia in this sense might mean being able to hear the pilot make PAs in cantonese everytime we fly on a CX flight. i also guess it might mean aircrews being able to banter in Cantonese regularly during the cruise phases of flight. but given the unique circumstances of HKG, i think this will be harder/take longer to achieve than what we already see in countries like Singapore, Japan or Taiwan.

misu11
20th Jun 2009, 09:44
Firstly id like to say im a 100% behind holdmetight. What he is saying m akes complete sense yet I hear the same people saying the same things over and over and over. There is NO Competition! Wake the hell up!

HAHA!! This is what i mentioned taking advantages, for expat, they suppose to has no any chance to apply. But now, they have. I understand how tough to be a pilot in your home country. but if same thing happen in your home country, would you say the same thing?
Also, I have repeated to say. Who would know the ruler of CX? Do you know how many slot will be opened? do you know the pass mark?
this is not kind of the case that all applicant pass, CX will take all of the applicant. such as there are 100 applicant, pass is 50%, 90% of applicant over 50, slot only 10, would they still take all 90% people to be cadet?
Is there no competition?

Also, would you think there are few people to apply entire world. As I said, cake is such big, what is the chance to have 1 of it?

In my opinion they will most probably hire the same amount of locals and add to that some foreigners to fill the gaps. Therefore nothing changes for you guys.

Who knows, CX didn't mention amount of slot for local and expat.

i certainly don't agree that for expatriate cadets, this is an opportunity for "free training and good pay". well, certainly not the latter. with no other forms of renumeration outside their basic pay package, these expats are on their own in HKG. they have to pay for their own housing, tax, bills... everything out of their own pocket. in the end, they don't take home a lot of money, and that is only exacerbated when they exchange what remains of their hard-earned cash into the currency they use at home.

Please read the other topic what mizzy calculation. They would attract people what mizzy said. After they become CX pilot, What will they look for the next step? How long would it take to become a captain in CX and others airline? when they leave CX, they would have wide body and international flight experience which would be very useful for their career. They would apply to other airlines with expat pay. they may strictly be a expat captain.

After you fly around 4-5 yrs, would you just keep to say about passion? you will look about the money, living standard and family. With HK high living cost, different living style, will they stay for CX to whole life. Don't forget they may have family waiting for them in home country.

For the airline, they are looking for people to become a captain, not the cadet pilot or FO.

For the local, Hong Kong is their home. Are they willing to leave?

Let wait & see. I would predict there will be less and less HK wannabes to be a cadet program.

misu11
20th Jun 2009, 09:52
Seriously, dont eb so selfish, there are so many other opportunities for you asian guys in that region. Singapore airlines, Dragonair, CX, Air China, Xiamen, you name it. Some people dont have so many opportunities.

Also, would you think there is only 1 nation in Asia. We would be expat when we apply Air China, Xiamen, Singapore airlines. Dragonair is a branch of CX. There is a possibly recruiting by CX. So, do they treat us a local to apply? Even they take us with local terms, the requirment is higher that I have been mentioned. I don't want to attack anyone, but this is the fact that HK wannabes will be faced .

holdmetight
20th Jun 2009, 17:32
this is not kind of the case that all applicant pass, CX will take all of the applicant. such as there are 100 applicant, pass is 50%, 90% of applicant over 50, slot only 10, would they still take all 90% people to be cadet?
Is there no competition?


As I said, cake is such big, what is the chance to have 1 of it?

Who knows, CX didn't mention amount of slot for local and expat

slots?

mate, there are no slots. the selection process is all about being able to jump over a bar, that's it. if miraculously one year there are 100 people who apply for a cx cadetship and subsequently all make the grade, cathay will want to retain all of these people, local or expatriate, even if they cannot afford to give training to everyone at the same amount of time. this has happened before and will continue to happen again.

let me give you an example to illustrate this, perhaps this will help you see the light.

in late 2007 the Dragonair cadet course for that year (DA9) graduated from training in Adelaide. however due to the lack of training resources in KA they were seconded to CX to serve as S/Os for a year. the lack of training resources was due to a myriad of reasons, which are beyond the scope of importance in this thread. the important thing is, these conditions did not vastly change throughout 2008, and it was easy to see that given the new direction of Dragonair, the airline would probably not need anymore pilots or have the facilities to train new-comers. early this year, another batch of Dragonair cadets graduated (DA10), yet they have remained unemployed for over half a year now, due to the very same reasons that banished the preceding class from working in KA. however in mid-2008, KA still continued its recruitment of cadet pilots. this batch are the latest batch of Dragonair cadets training in adelaide (DA11).

why do you think KA still recruited cadet pilots, despite the fact that they obviously didn't need anymore new pilots? the reason is because despite their probable incapacity to train these cadets once they leave flight training in adelaide, the company did not want to let these men/women with potential slip from their grip and end up working for some other airline. Dragonair would rather recruit these cadets and train them, and hope that training resources will become available at the end of their training. and what happens if KA aren't able to train these newly-graduated cadets once they graduate? just take a look DA10. they have been unemployed for half a year now, and the situation for them does not look very rosy. however once things pick up, they are sure to be given phone calls and start dates.

what i am trying to say here is that airlines would rather tie you to them with a cadetship and ab-initio training, rather than let you slip away to their competitors, especially when your employment could save a bucket-load of cash for them. obviously, this is based on the condition that you satisfy the airline's requirements for a cadet pilot. with a mindset like that, do you think airlines will limit the number of people with potential they take?

wskwong
20th Jun 2009, 18:44
wow that's interesting. so they trained you and leave you unemployed afterwards? How does that work?

at least do they get any ground-crew job? They do need to keep their ratings up-to-date, right?

pd47
21st Jun 2009, 10:58
tied in with what misu11 said in #42 - i hav always thought CX limited the CPP for 2 reasons:

1- a local will stick with the company even if the contract terms r under par, simply because their roots are in hk. a BBC,CBC,ABC with id, and now, the rest of the world, i am not sure if they would stick it out here for that long once they got the hours n become very employable. hence, locals (cheap, more exploitable), expat (less 'loyal' to the airline.)

2- good publicity/ the image of giving something back.

and for the above reasons i believe CX would ALWAYS prefer a local if they meet their standard - they would not want to open it up to the rest of the world unless its absolutely necessary, programs like the CPP (all paid for) are almost unique in the world, one can imagine the extra manpower to process all the applications. in my opinion it complicates everything for CX, but just as hard, if not more difficult, to seive out the right people.

however, eventually the economy will pick up and they will need good pilots to fill those seats who will uphold CX's standards. Yes there r lots of people interested in aviation in hk - but probably just a tiny portion of them meet CX's standards - as a local myself - i think its down to the following:

1. english
2. personality
3. passion/ interest

from wt i observed, which may well prove to be wrong - there maybe lots of local candidates out there who has 2+3, or even just lots and lots of 3, but none of the others. some may have 1+2, but if they had those abilities in HK, they probably have laid their eyes on something else already. if you take away the groups mentioned above, CX really isn't left with many to choose from. therefore i think CX opened up the CPP primary to make up the numbers + short-mid term cheap workforce. local + able candidates is their holy grail. so ... for abt the zillionth time - heads up guys - particularly locals - if u r gd enough - U WILL MAKE IT!

7500_7700
22nd Jun 2009, 22:50
Well said pd47:ok:

wskwong
22nd Jun 2009, 23:43
I still don't get how hiring a non-resident will save the company money, as for some of the arguments on here?

cx252
29th Jun 2009, 10:42
what Cathay Pacific need now is chaos. fly the flag guys.
Actually it is not really a matter or not you royal to the airline, once you get paid, you work, you may settle by some other reasons. I think this is a positive direction to absorb new blood. There are lot of people around the world interested in aviation ultimately flying big jet yet worry about funding. Global cadetship somewhat may raise up the brand emphasizing its name - potentially global airline + city + airport..etc.. Not big deal to local really.

As company itself they might wish to holding great extend amount of selection candidate. enlarge the pools in stead of finding people to fill the job, different positions, different outcomes. Putting measurement in terms of time, time = money. In stead of waiting those second or third attempt, thats the way to earning resource.

SonicCatR6
3rd Jul 2009, 14:12
OscarGolfIndia wrote:
The fact that it is open to everyone now won't hurt your chances.
There is no competition in the selection process between candidates. Cathay has a real hard time finding suitable candidates for the CPP, and has no quotas. It's wrong to see it as competition.
Plus, CX is expanding the CPP with more batches per year, so that's good.

Basically, if you're good enough, you will get in. CX will make a space for you.


There IS COMPETITION among Candidates! Please READ carefully e-mail below from CX:


.......................As you will appreciate, there is considerable competition for our Cadet Pilot Program and as a result we have to disappoint many applicants. Regrettably, we have concluded that we cannot offer you a place in our stage three selection process.

I am sure this has come as a disappointment to you, but unfortunately it is a final decision. We wish you well for the future and would like to thank you for your continued interest in Cathay Pacific Airways.

Yours Sincerely,
------------
------------

misu11
4th Jul 2009, 13:02
SonicCatR6:

Sorry to hear that. But I am deeply appreciated with your post telling the truth to those people who is saying no competition in CX selection. You really tell their them what is the real world.

For those people, I hope you would understand what the real world is. There will be more and more intense competition in cadet program. Then you would understand what I mentioned

I would say to all, good luck in future.

EPASZ
4th Jul 2009, 14:17
.......................As you will appreciate, there is considerable competition for our Cadet Pilot Program and as a result we have to disappoint many applicants. Regrettably, we have concluded that we cannot offer you a place in our stage three selection process.

I am sure this has come as a disappointment to you, but unfortunately it is a final decision. We wish you well for the future and would like to thank you for your continued interest in Cathay Pacific Airways.

Yours Sincerely,
------------
------------

Thanks for clarifying, gotta realise what the reality of this world is...(no competition in the process? What a load of non-sense). What people can believe is that there are always someone better than u in this world....but what we shouldnt believe is an interview process or a selection process that could completely filter and not miss any real potential candidates out there....and if u say Cathay can do that...then thats B.S.

SMOC
4th Jul 2009, 14:57
.....there is considerable competition......

Is a polite, politically correct way to say you didn't meet the grade!

The cadet programme has been opened up internationally because not enough HKers meet....

1. english
2. personality
3. passion/ interest

And I mean ALL of them!

1. ICAO Level 4
(Yes...invited to next stage......No.....Goodbye ".there is considerable competition.." ).

2. CRM (Can you sit in the cockpit for 8 hours with someone and will they want to sit with you!)
(Yes...invited to next stage......No.....Goodbye ".there is considerable competition.." ).

3. Is it worth spending the money on you! (Will you stay with flying and CX)
(Yes...invited to next stage......No.....Goodbye ".there is considerable competition.." ).

CX is lucky to field a class of 10 cadets on each course and a majority of them are from UK, CAN, AUS. So therefore meet ICAO Level 6: Expert!

ICAO has established six levels of language proficiency:

* ICAO Level 6: Expert
* ICAO Level 5: Extended
* ICAO Level 4: Operational
* ICAO Level 3: Pre-Operational
* ICAO Level 2: Elementary
* ICAO Level 1: Pre-Elementary


The minimum language level for licensing purposes is ICAO Level 4. To be assessed at ICAO Level 4 or above, a pilot or air traffic controller must achieve Level 4 in all six of the ICAO skill areas: Pronunciation, Structure, Vocabulary, Fluency, Comprehension and Interactions.

If you want to start quoting SQ, all of them would pass the language proficiency level 4, HK does not promote English in schools as well as Singapore.

If you want the HK government to get involved with CX cadet hiring, you better start with improving English in HK schools!

And finally a pilots license does not mean you meet CX standards, CX knocks hundreds of pilots with thousands of hours back every month and those are subject to rules 2 & 3 above, just like cadet pilot applicants!

holdmetight
5th Jul 2009, 15:50
my point exactly, SMOC.

EPASZ
8th Jul 2009, 07:54
And finally a pilots license does not mean you meet CX standards, CX knocks hundreds of pilots with thousands of hours back every month and those are subject to rules 2 & 3 above, just like cadet pilot applicants!

Well, it is really great that u sound like u have a great insight into the interview standards. If are you're flying with Cathay right now...awesome...good on ya u have met the 3 all the way to stage 4. If you ain't flying with Cathay...then why are u still here? Did u not meet 1 of the 3 Criteria...or u think u did? But u just got unlucky that u got rejected? Because somehow in those 3 Criteria Cathay gave u a 'NO' therefore u couldnt move on the next stage? Hence u receive a letter quoting "there is considerable competition...sorry...cant give ya an offer." And after such event, did u ask urself 3 questions? Did i not meet the english standard? Do i have a personality problem? Did I not have a passion for flying?

And to ur exact point as well holdmetight. Did u ask urself that and came up with a 'YES' in any of the 3 questions above?

holdmetight
8th Jul 2009, 08:31
Did u ask urself that and came up with a 'YES' in any of the 3 questions above?

i admit i did a bit of soul-searching after my last unsuccessful attempt at the CXCPP. i fell short of the bar due to a combination of factors, none of which are amongst the three that you speak of. i don't believe that i was unlucky or disadvantaged in any way.

7500_7700
9th Jul 2009, 05:34
People who disagree with Cathay

Solution for you...Don't buy their stock, don't fly with them, don't apply for CPP, Learn mandarine and fly for air china

expat/locals who wants to work for Cathay

Have fun in Hong Kong and I'll meet you all in LKF(go google it if you don't know where this place is) when I get into CATHAY:ok:

coral reef
12th Jul 2009, 00:49
Hello

I have browsed through this discussion w.r.t the requirements needed to apply for the Cathay Cadet program.

As I understand it, the program is open to all nationalities now, but what I have not yet been able to confirm is whether non-residents of Hong Kong who also do not have a HK ID number, can apply.

That is, can a Canadian citizen (myself), who has never lived in or visited Hong Kong, apply to this program?

I've searched for a definite answer but couldn't find one.
Appreciate your response.

--

holdmetight
12th Jul 2009, 03:06
i don't see why you can't apply, if CX have already removed the HK residency requirement and effectively put the cadet program on the international stage.

good luck!