Money problems half way.. Now what?

[MikeeGR]

I am currently training with an FTO in the EU, i am a PPL holder and i am half way through my ATPL's at the moment with an 98% average.
Problem is that i am paying the FTO in euro which i convert from pounds, so all this sounded like a good idea before the economic downturn, but now it is all costing me too much, i have already paid out most of the money, and at this rate i wont be able to fund my self all the way, (and thats without an MCC and type rating at the end :'(
My bank or any bank wont give out a personal loan or re mortgage since i am not making enough on part time employment and no one does Professional study loans anymore.
What i am asking for is any advise in the UK on any banks that do provide loans for intergrated courses, (i have already approached all the high street banks) are there any airlines out there sponsoring someone half way down his course, or should i just deal with it, go modular, get a full time job and hope to score a loan that way? Unfortunately i believe i made a poor choice of FTO and should have tried to go through a sponsorship instead of self funding this.
Any advise is welcome, and best of luck to other people on here looking for solutions to their own problems.

[redout]

Are you Integrated or Modular ?

If modular then the simple solution would be to just finish off the ATPLs and put the flying on hold until you muster up somemore money. If Integrated then its more tricky and I would advise talking with your schools finance department and coming to some sort of a agreement as regards payment. If all goes well they might give you a moratorium on payment for several months.

[MikeeGR]

Thanks for the Reply Redout,

I am intergrated and i have spoken to them about this, they have pushed my payment deadlines a bit further, but that just delays the inevitable, with no bank offering a type of loan to fit the situation nothing changes, they suggested i contact a certain bank, but they only loan if you are sponsored by an airline.
How have other people on here managed to secure loans without any assistance from family? I own my apartment outright, but no one will remortgage without full time employment.

[helimutt]

One grey coloured, cheap, plastic folder. Enclosed within this forlorn looking, dog-eared JAR issued folder is a licence to fly helicopters commercially. I'll also include the instructors rating and the type ratings for 5 types of helicopter, and a Multi engine Instrument Rating, valid on the Sikorsky 76C, Radio Operators certificate, and LPC just recently renewed and Class One Medical certificate good for another 9 months.
Open to offers or it goes on EBAY for a 0.99p start price, no reserve auction.
When new, cost of obtaining the above was approximately £110k but now selling due to lack of interest. Might be open to offers. I wish:ok::rolleyes:

But seriously, my advice is to not waste money you don't have on flight training for a while yet.

[redout]

I see you mentioned you owned your own apartment outright. If you live on the schools campus like Oxford for example one solution could be to rent your apartment and put the money toward paying your fee's although I would guess maybe thats not enough as fee's are usually a couple of thousand per month if payed monthly. I really dont know. The credit Union are usually good at giving loans ABCUL (http://www.abcul.org/page/index.cfm)

[MikeeGR]

Hellimut i can't say you are in the wrong with your opinion, but the way i see it i have passed the PNR and i have already invested too much into this to stop now. With me being intergrated i am afraid of loosing money that way you see because the FTO holds a significant amount of credit from me.

Redout i am distance learning in the ATPL's so live at the apartment, (i actually downsized from a semi detached to be able to afford the training in the first place haha) but thanks for the lead on Credit Union, will ring them tomorrow and see what they have to say. I might consider finishing the ATPL's and going modular if all else fails.

Does anyone have any info on these sponsorships and how they work, or how you go around applying? i didnt go down that route cause prior to the econ. downturn i could afford to self fund without a loan. But if an airline could at least consider me as a future employee, then that opens up alot of doors with the banks. I am sure nowadays most sponsorships are not taking any more applications

[Sensible]

Before getting yourself into debt, consider very carefully the worst case scenario - What if you don't get a flying job after training?(lots of people don't, especially in a recession) Can you support yourself, your apartment and the loan repayments with your normal career job? If the answer is NO, then don't borrow because you will be on the very slippery slope to unbearable stress and financial ruin. Best put your training on hold and resume it once the clouds of recession and uncertainty clear and maybe you have saved some money. I know that it is a hard decision, but hard decisions have to be made sometimes!

Good luck whatever decision you make but NEVER EVER rely solely on luck.

[Keygrip]

You're on an integrated course doing distance learning?

WTF?

[TheBeak]

That is possible to be fair. An integrated CPL/IR course as opposed to an integrated ATPL course.

[Artie Fufkin]

If he's distance learning ATPLs that's surely an fATPL, not CPL/IR.

Like Keygrip, I smell Baldrick's apple crumble.

[vlieger]

I have a similar problem and my solution is to work like a maniac to raise as much money as possible. I'm lucky to be working freelance so I can work when I want and it pays relatively well. Simple, but it works, even on an integrated course -- during my ATPL exams I still had loads of time and still scored in the high 90's average. You may be able to find something similar which you can do off and on. I planned this in advance and even changed careers in order to get that flexibility and I'm really glad I did as I am spending more than expected, hence the need to step up to the plate and minimise that debt -- that is the main thing.
My FTO was also understanding so I could delay payments by a few months.
As a sidenote, this is the thing that annoys me when the resident cynics talk about McDonalds recruiting. Some of us had careers before joining an expensive integrated course so we can always go back to that. I am already assuming the worst, i.e. not to get a pilot job after one year of graduation, but in my case I would just do what I did before: work my arse off and get rid of the small debt I incurred. (yes, not everyone is so foolish to borrow over 50k, some of us actually saved hard for years)

[TheBeak]

Yes he ends out with a CPL/IR with ATPL ground exams AKA an fATPL. But he is studying on an Integrated CPL/IR course NOT an Integrated ATPL course. The difference being one provides in house ATPL tuition and the other outsources it's ground training. So the chap may not be lying. It is an entirely possible situation.

[Keygrip]

Whoaaa, Beak. I never suggested anybody was *lying*.

I just wonder what course can call itself "integrated" yet do distance learning - for *any* subject, not just aviation.

[limeen]

With all due respect, If I was you I would get a reality check and then look for a job.
It may work wonders.....

[TheBeak]

Whoooaaa Keygrip, that was what I misunderstood from Artie Fufkins post, apologies. Several Integrated courses use BGS I believe.

[Keygrip]

I'm sure they do - but surely not as distance learning!

That's NOT an integrated course. It may be dressed up as an integrated course, and called an integrated course, it's probably charged as an integrated course - but there's no way it *is* an integrated course.

[AlphaMale]

Also note MikeeGR has a PPL already. Integrated students at Oxford, CTC and FTE never get a PPL.

My guess is Mikee is looking to finish his ATPL GS and then go full time for his CPL/IR followed by an MCC i.e. fATPL.

So not integrated?

PTC in Ireland run a 'Airline Pilot Training Programme' that takes 12-14 months which is very much like the time scale for an integrated course. They also run in-house ATPL GS and advertise distance ATPL GS. I'm sure you could arrange with them to do the ATPL GS via distance learning after all PTC is not an intergrated school.

I'm sure PTC will want payment in Euros too http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

[docash1983]

Hi,

Dont know how much you need and these only cover a small amount i think around 5 k max, but look a the government Career Development Loans.

docash19831983

[Adios]

MikeeGR,

I have heard of UK based Integrated FTOs accepting transfer students. If you have completed the 14 exams, you would need the UK CAA to accept them if your school is not CAA approved, but if you are at FTE, they are CAA approved and moving to Cabair, CTC Wings iCP or Oxford should be pretty straight forward. I don't know what it would cost, so give the school's an exploratory phone call, tell them where you have got to in the course and see if they are interested. You may be able to cut the losses by finishing in Sterling. If you are at FTE and funded by BBVA, moving to Oxford or CTC Wings iCP could be doable since BBVA funds them both.

[Adios]

CTC call Wings Integrated, but it includes Bristol's Distance Learning. The difference is that if the FTO provides their own resident GS, the CAA list them as Integrated ATPL and if they out source the GS, the CAA list them as Integrated CPL/IR. The bit of paper at the end is the same, a CPL/IR, so if anything smells funny, it's Integrated ATPL don't you think? I am not arguing that Distance Learning is better than a resident course, just more flexible and usually less costly. You can't say BGS don't get good results though, so it's simply a matter of horses for courses, so give a bit of thought to whether you should blow the troll alert on MikeeGR.

[Adios]

I had forgot about PTC. Yep, he could definitely be there.

Transferring from PTC to a UK FTO would be problematic, but not impossible. The CAA might accept the theory exam passes he has even though they would have been overseen by the IAA I think. BBVA are funding UK students at PTC as well.

[Artie Fufkin]

Oh come on MikeeGR, you can't leave us hanging like this, what course are you doing?

[MikeeGR]

I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions and advice,
but to inform a a few who are losing sight of what this thread is really for,
I am in an intergrated course, one price from PPL, ATPL, CPL/MEP and then IR.
One Price, all fee's and hoursbuilding plus accommodation all included. if that's not intergrated, what is? Only difference is i chose to do ATPL's from home to save a few grand since reading is one thing i dont need guidance to do correctly.

I contacted BBVA and Credit Union, they dont do loans of the sort of amount required. I am not looking to cover the full amount since i have already paid most of it and like Vlieger said, some of us have actually saved some money, my mistake was relying on the idea the pound would carry on being strong for all eternity and choosing to train abroad.

Anyway i think i will be taking the advise of most on here and finish my ATPL's, switch to modular and resume full time work again for some time, and re assess in a few months time.

Also there is nothing wrong with flipping burgers, i had to do it as a teen to support my self and my rent, some people dont have the luxury of shoosing a job nowadays, since there arent any out there, so for those who do, good for you, but dont judge others for earning a hard days salary.


P.S. if another simular post from me pops up, for some reason my first post didnt appear so had to re-write it.

[AlphaMale]

I am in an intergrated course, one price from PPL, ATPL, CPL/MEP and then IR.
One Price, all fee's and hoursbuilding plus accommodation all included. if that's not intergrated, what is?

The only JAR Integrated FTO’s that I am aware of are Oxford Aviation Academy, CTC, Cabair and Flight Training Europe in Jerez.

What you’re doing is an ab-initio course where you carry out PPL > fATPL with one training provider. So you’re a full time one-stop modular student.

Integrated courses tend to cost £90k whereas a £45k Ab-Inito course offered by many schools throughout the UK, Europe and the USA (Needing to convert the FAA IR back in the UK of course) is in essence modular training.

You will not get a PPL if you were an integrated student. As a Modular student having gained a PPL and say ATPL GS if you then run out of money after completing your MEP you can simply take a year out of training to earn enough money to pay for the CPL/IR.

When you do put a pause on your training you’ll simply have a PPL with SEP and MEP privileges and the ATPL GS exams completed that will expire in 36 months.

If however you’re an integrated student you’ll study the ATPL GS then go on to the CPL/ME-IR, If you drop out half way though the CPL/ME-IR then you leave with nothing.

So knowing if you’re an integrated student or a one-stop modular student is quite important here.

[vlieger]

If however you’re an integrated student you’ll study the ATPL GS then go on to the CPL/ME-IR, If you drop out half way though the CPL/ME-IR then you leave with nothing.Perhaps a bit pedantic, but that's not really true, is it? If for some reason that's what happens, you still get the piece of paper saying that you completed the ATPL exams. As for flying, you keep the hours and the experience. But this is a bit academic as I don't see why you would stop in the middle of doing a CPL or IR. Fair enough if you somehow take a break after the ATPL exams or even the CPL to earn some money and come back to it all a year later but it would be unwise to stop in the middle of the most expensive part of it all.

[AlphaMale]

How would the ATPL GS be valid without a PPL? I was under the impression you needed a PPL and a Class 1 medical in order to get on the ATPL GS?

I'm sure there is nothing stopping a OAA student in dropping out halfway through an integrated course at the point where he/she has 100hrs under their belt and then sitting a PPL test at another modular flying school so long as they have:

25 hours of dual instruction
10 hours or more of solo flying
5 hours or more of solo 'cross country' time

Maybe they can walk away with the ATPL GS credit having never sat in a plane before but I've never heard of it?

For the record MikeeGR is modular so he doesn't have that problem (We worked it out via PM). :ok:

All the best with finding the money though, CDL may work but we'll have to see.

[SpreadEagle]

I ran out of money doing an Integrated course in the UK. Talk to them. My school were really good about it. I left for a total of 11 months during my course to earn more money. I returned and finished the course, and you know what? I wasn't the last person on my course to graduate. Some had taken so long to get through the course normally, I over hauled them and still finished ahead of them.

I believe there is a time limit on how long you have to get your IR after ground school, but its something insane like 5 years. I'm sure someone will give you the actual figure.

My log book looks a bit funky with two whopping gaps in training, but in an interview if asked I'll be honest. No one paid for my flying. I wasn't bankroled by a rich daddy. I worked bloody hard, and when the s**t hit the fan, I did whatever it took to finish the course. If you can overcome hurdles like this, it can sometimes work in your favour. This is just life's way of asking you how much you want it.

Good luck

[SpreadEagle]

Oh by the way, you seem very adement that you don't wan't to do your ppl all over again. To my knowledge most integrated FTO's will offer an abridgement if you already have flying hours, saving you this hassel. It won't be the full hours you have, as they always beleive they can train you better than anyone else, but it is an abridgement all the same.

CabAir certainly do abridgements and I'd bet my left walnut Oxford do something similar.