Can bush pilots carry/fly handguns?

[LambOfGod]

Yes! This is a real question..

I was quite sure I read somewhere bush pilots can carry a handgun whilst flying, with permits etc. In the case that they crash/land without any help, with the handgun as a use of deffence and hunting.

I'm expecting negative comments which are welcome, but I prefer serious and educated replies perhaps containing links to the information.

Thanks:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Can bush pilots carry/fly handguns?


Legally or illegally?

Dr :8

PS: I used to always carry a 308W - not worth the risk or the hassle these days. Thanks Johnnie for saving us from ourselves!

[DH 200']

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 143

Carriage of firearms (1) A person, including a flight crew member, must not carry a firearm in, or have a firearm in his or her possession in, an aircraft other than an aircraft engaged in charter operations or regular public transport operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.
(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .
(3) It is a defence to a prosecution under subregulation (1) if the person had the written permission of CASA to have the firearm in the aircraft.

What FTDK said.

[tio540]

This one has been discussed here before. Yes you can with certain approvals. A search should answer your question.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Good luck getting permission to carry one, especially with the carriage of ELBAs and radio. Flight notes and SARWATCH are there to cover the unfortunate possibility of forced landings anyway.

Note you shouldn't even have one on PVT or AWK without permission from CASA anyway but who's gonna ramp check a cocky??

[Worrals in the wilds]

Aviation Transport Security Act 2004 s48
Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005 4.59 4.59A
available at ComLaw - Homepage (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/)

These can get you started :} basically only air marshalls can carry loaded weapons on an aircraft, from my reading of these Acts.
Almost anything's possible with a permit (I know someone who used to shoot feral animals from an A/C for National Parks, but that was some time ago).

Nothing in the above acts specifically mentions what you're asking. Firearms can be transported in the hold of a commercial A/C with a license and operator approval, unloaded. No idea about lighties.
Additionally, hunting with a firearm is restricted by State laws. You generally need the property owner's approval.

Carriage of ammunition also falls under dangerous goods regs.

IAC, wouldn't you be better off hunting with a rifle?:confused:

edit: FTDK, absolutely. It'll be permits for kitchen knives before the decade's out.

[Flying Binghi]

This one has been discussed here before

yes, several times.

must be a slow news week...:hmm:

[VH-XXX]

3 easy steps if you want to do it legally.

I know this, because I have this excemption myself, for private flying.


1. Get yourself a gun licence for the category of handgun / longarm that you intend to carry and join a club etc etc as per the requirements

2. Purchase a handgun / longarm from your local firearms dealer or second hand through a firearms dealer (aka legally)

3. Get an excemption in writing from CASA to allow you to carry the gun in the aircraft, but only in the luggage compartment and unloaded.

That's about it, unless you're approved for actually shooting from the aircraft, there are no other options.

Some states (such as NT) allow you to use the handgun for shooting animals etc pretty much anywhere outback etc, however other states like Vic ONLY allow handguns to be used at Police Approved Pistol Ranges - aka a Pistol club.

If you are that worried about a wild pig coming and biting you after you crashed many miles from anywere, you shouldn't be flying. If you think you are going to go and shoot a pig or kangaroo for food, then good luck to you hitting a kangaroo at greater than 80 metres with a handgun.

[Peter Fanelli]

What CAO's CAR's ANO's or whatever they're called now makes a distinction between a "bush pilot" and any other pilot?

[Flying Binghi]

What CAO's CAR's ANO's or whatever they're called now makes a distinction between a "bush pilot" and any other pilot?


"a distinction"...a true bush pilot wouldnt know what a CAO, CAR, and ANO is....;)

[tinpis]

What in heavens name constitutes "Bush flying " in OZ ?

[apache]

the way I read that CAO, is that it is OK to carry a firearm on charter or RPT ops.

just to play devils advocate... does a flare pistol constitute a firearm?

[Freewheel]

Probably, but even if not, but it is certainly an incendiary device.......:E

[VH-XXX]

You CAN carry a firearm on charter or rpt, but IN your luggage and UN-loaded AND in the cargo-hold.

It's the private flying that's the curly one.

[TSIO540]

In addition to the DG concerns and the CASA permit, you might want to consider the security legislation (ATSR's I think they are) that prohibit the carriage of weapons in a secure area e.g. airside.:=

Whilst bush strips are hardly security controlled AD's, eventually you'll need fuel, and a lot of places with fuel are also security controlled!:ugh:

A defense to this is (ATSR reg 5.40 I think) if the weapon is a tool of the trade... e.g. leatherman for a pilot, gun for AFP.:ok:

[tmpffisch]

'Tools of the trade' is ATSR division 4.3, 4.61.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I reckon your best 'deffence' (sic) for survival in the Australian 'bush',
is lots and lots of WATER.

The idea is to survive until your EPIRB is located.....or whatever....

At 1kg per litre, or 10 lbs per gallon in the 'old days', I always managed to 'squeeze' a couple of 2gal containers in - plus some 'Flyin Doc Christmas Fruit Cake' in a tin......lasts for ages that stuff!

And anyway, a handgun is not much chop for 'hunting', what sort of 'game' is going to let YOU get THAT CLOSE do you reckon?

Cheers :ok:

[Flying Binghi]

anyway, a handgun is not much chop for 'hunting', what sort of 'game' is going to let YOU get THAT CLOSE do you reckon?


Aggressive game perhaps....

ah was just having a read of a book about Oz explorers. The author doing research got some help from the Oz navy taking him to a beach site up north. Under instructions from the Cap, one of the sailors in the landing boat had a rifle as an anti crocodile safety measure...:eek:



The idea is to survive until your EPIRB is located

If ya only carry one thing - IMO, an EPIRB is it.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Umm....some one going by the name of LambOfGod asking questions about guns on aircraft......:ugh::ugh:

What next....? Is it legal to send Anthrax in the mail?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day 'Binghi',

Yep. Used to carry my trusty (new) .303 Lee Enfield in the cab. when I was flying Aus/PNG on a couple of occasions in the 'good ole days'.

Those 'logs' in the rivers around Daru - Morbid were pretty impressive some times - especially when they moved 'upstream'....

T'was duly declared at Horn to Aus Customs on departure in those days.

Glad I never had to use it though....:ok:
(It would have meant I'd lost the air-conveyance...):eek:

And, no EPIRBS in those days - but flares etc were OK and encouraged.
Are they not incendiary - like guns /ammo?

Cheers :ok:

[aseanaero]

Save the money on the gun and buy a Satphone

[Worrals in the wilds]

Binghi, I heard an (unverified) story from an army bloke a while ago about a chopper that made an emergency landing deep in croc country, and the crew (while uninjured) spent a rather unpleasant night up a tree with their rifles scaring off crocodiles. Apparently they'd used most of their ammunition by morning :eek:

Apache, according to the Regs, a flare is defined as a weapon, but weapons can be carried on board if they are aircraft stores or emergency equipment and not generally accessible to passengers. (1.09) On another note, apparently the 'tools of trade' weapon exemption does not apply to firearms. (4.59a)

Where's the OP? Lots of serious replies :confused:


What next....? Is it legal to send Anthrax in the mail?

There probably is some sort of permit available :}
IIRC about the only thing that's prohibited absolutely is importing human embryo clones. Anything else there's usually a 'with the Minister's approval' type loophole in the Act.

[clear to land]

FWIW, my Aus Licence has, courtesy of CASA, the endorsement:'Firearms Carriage' with no expiry date (valid while licence is valid). Got the endorsement in mid 90's when doing a lot of North Australian flying. Endorsement does not specify longs or shorts, just firearms.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Is that on a PPL or CPL?

[Murray Cod]

Lamb of god , 308's , aircraft , sat phones handguns,
The boys at Pine Gap will be on overtime tonight
Assalaam-O-Alaikum
MC:cool:

[aseanaero]

Durka durka ...

[LambOfGod]

Hey Murry, me and one of my pilot wannabe buddies try to find Pine Gap on the Aussie map in that hell whole english class.
After some wikipedian I now where..


Oh, and I have another question in regards to whether sea-plane pilots can smoke ice whilst flying?

[Worrals in the wilds]

...gives a whole new meaning to the term 'counterintelligence' :rolleyes:.

[clear to land]

Licence ATPL(A and H), firearms endorsement applies to both.

[j3pipercub]

Lamb of God, you sure you're the full quid?

[Worrals in the wilds]

Thanks for that. I wondered if it was to get around the grey areas with private ops carrying weapons that other people had mentioned.

He's sure. We're not. :}

[Di_Vosh]

This thread

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/353625-pistol-license-pilots.html

is the thread that will give you all the answers.

Guys, go a little easy on LoG. 16 years old, and I'm guessing it's school holidays. Look at some of his other questions...

DIVOSH!

[longrass]

In the NT you just apply to CASA for a "Carriage Permit" or in the case of feral animal control from rotary aircraft a "Carriage and Discharge Permit".
Take these permits into PMC Berrimah and fill in an application for a "Shooters License", you genuine reason is "016 Pilot (Survival)". You will recieve an interim permit on the spot if you can produce;

1) Log Book
2) Safety Course Certificate
3) CASA Permits
4) Letter from employer requesting the issue
5) Photos of safe storage facility (ie pistol safe)
6) FCL or certified copy of
7) ASIC or Criminal History Check

Apply on the spot for a "Permit to Aquire", take this to a Firearm Dealer and purchase the pistol of your choice, ie...

1) Desert Eagle .44mag
2) Kimber 1911 .45acp
3) S&W 686 .357mag
4) Glock 17 9mm
5) Ruger 10/22 Charger .22
Or Whaterver you Fancy

You can now carry this pistol openly whilst in conjunction with your employment, must not be concealed on you person, so just like a security guard. Most boys just stitch some elastic in their headset bag to hold it in place. Can be carried loaded if you wish, although common sense would prevail.

And for all you w$nkers who go on to post that firearms are evil and have no place in the community or aviation.

1) Epirb 121.5mhz with a flat battery (Boss is tightass)
2) Spare Epirb 121.5mhz to throw at croc when u have crashed in swamp
3) Bible (to pray that croc leaves)
4) Alcohol (to numb pain)
5) Concrete (to harden the f&ck up and buy a gun)

[CYHeli]

Some standards would be nice, but I'm not sure if it's due to the various legal interpretations or just common sense.
When I was flying helicopters in Mildura, jets had just started to arrive and the screening was a new idea. The security would not let me carry a leatherman/gerber airside even when I argued that it was a tool of trade, but up in Alice Springs they didn't have a problem. Could be that they had new toys in Mildura and were still finding their feet.

[Flying Binghi]

Oooooh,.:ooh:... i don't know about letting pilots have leatherman's...imagine, in flight, something comes loose on the panel...pilot thinks i'll just whip out the leatherman and fix that....avionics disaster....:eek:




......;)

[Mr.Buzzy]

And for all you w$nkers who go on to post that firearms are evil and have no place in the community or aviation.

1) Epirb 121.5mhz with a flat battery (Boss is tightass)
2) Spare Epirb 121.5mhz to throw at croc when u have crashed in swamp
3) Bible (to pray that croc leaves)
4) Alcohol (to numb pain)
5) Concrete (to harden the f&ck up and buy a gun)

Who is the ******?

The genius that swaggers about with a gun. (Probably not really knowing how to use it.)

or

The person that weighs up the risk of carrying / storing a gun versus the likelihood of ever having to sit up a tree and aggravate a group of angry crocs with 6 pissy little bullets.

I'll take the Satphone thanks! Hope your kids or an angry black fella never get a hold of that chrome, long-barrel 44 Clint!........

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Lineboy4life]

angry black fella?

quick, pop-corn & beers - this is about to get interesting:}

[LambOfGod]

hehe, good on ya longgrass5) Concrete (to harden the f&ck up and buy a gun)

But oh... Mr.Buzzy, you've realy crossed the hive this time mate.

[longrass]

The genius that swaggers about with a gun. (Probably not really knowing how to use it.)


Represented QLD in the IPSC Nationals and shoot on average 5000 rounds a week when training for percentage shoots.

The person that weighs up the risk of carrying / storing a gun

Hmmmmmm, as a Law Abiding Firearm Owner i am legally obliged to securely store my firearms at all times. This means locking it in a 6mm steel safe bolted to the concrete floor by four 12x150mm chemisets. Storing the ammunition seperately in a steel container and locking the action open with a ropewire lock.....

Versus the likelihood of ever having to sit up a tree and aggravate a group of angry crocs


They won't be aggrevated, they'll be dead, copping a .45inch copper jacketed hollow point between the eyes. Running at around 2540fps. Leaving a hole about the size of a tennis ball on the underside of its throat. Worked on a 4.5m salty and 700kg buffalo, and many a pig.....

6 pissy little bullets


The 45 has a 15 round stick mag and the 9mm has a choice of 10, 17 or 33 round magazine

I'll take the Satphone thanks


Got one of those too, works great when its not smashed in a crash, or wet from the swamp.

Hope your kids or an angry black fella never get a hold of that chrome, long-barrel 44 Clint!........


I wouldnt allow them the opportunity, nor would any law abiding firearm owner, or responsible adult for that matter.

Why do the cops have guns, air marshalls, military, security guards, customs, feds, barra fisherman, safari operators... Its obviously to protect themselves and others from harm, try telling me that cops need guns. Because less than 1% of Australian Police have reported ever having to draw their firearms in defence. The reason you call the police in an emergency is because they have guns right.....

There is no reason why pilots shouldnt be able to carry a firearm for self defence. It's like you trying to tell me that i shouldnt be allowed knives at home because i could hurt someone. If you dont like it then dont get one. Some of us actually appreciate them and i very rarely leave Darwin without one, even by car.

[Freewheel]

Save the money on the gun and buy a Satphone



Without going into the finer points, both have their place, depending on your circumstances. Personally if I was able to justify both, I'd have both. (must admit to preferring a longarm, but that's beside the point)

Regardless of which you choose (or neither, or both), become familiar with and properly trained in the use of whatever equipment you have - even the dastardly leatherman. Agreed, leatherman training is sparse, but familiarity will do there.

Going through the process of getting an approval is one thing, but like any other item of your equipment, or any other skill you possess, you're going to get the most from it through training and regular practice.

Think of it like a navaid, practice regularly and you'll be thankful if you ever need it.

[werbil]

I've heard stories of some float pilots (in the US) using firearms for glassy water operations - supposedly to ruffle up the surface to be able to judge their height above the water for a glassy landing. Personally I'd be surprised if anything that you could handle in the cockpit would disturb the surface enough to make a disturbance. I have heard stories of Catalina's using their 50 caliber on auto for that trick.

On a similar vein I usually carry a sharp leatherman when I'm at work (floatplanes) - in conditions of wind across the current it can be the only way to release a mooring. I haven't had one confiscated yet - but I make sure I leave it in the aircraft if I've got to go through screening.

[increasedescent]

Doesn't ANR 119 under CAR 143 imply that you can carry a loaded firearm on CHTR or RPT without CASA permission provided you buy a dangerous animal to go with it? :}

ID

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Doesn't ANR 119 under CAR 143 imply that you can carry a loaded firearm on CHTR or RPT without CASA permission provided you buy a dangerous animal to go with it? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif


Yeah, I used to carry a gun in case I suddenly turned rabid and I had to put myself down!

Dr :8

[longrass]

Lol.................

[Phyk]

The 45 has a 15 round stick mag and the 9mm has a choice of 10, 17 or 33 round magazine


After the Monash University shooting in 2002, a federal law was introduced which limits all magazines to a maximum of 10 rounds. Congrats in proving to fellow pilots that your a gun zealot that ignores the rules and regs surrounding gun ownership.

I suggest you turn in the magazines to your nearest police station, so some idiot can't get your 9mm with 33 rounds....

[Sunfish]

Read the NT regs youngster. Nothing is actually "prohibited". What changes is the classification and conditions obtaining to ownership.

By way of example, I am aware of at least one Australian registered charter yacht that legally carries a .50 Cal machine gun.

[tinpis]

Had one once think they is illegal now

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2634/ar722rifle005.jpg



http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9510/ar722rifle002.jpg

[RadioSaigon]

This has been an interesting thread to review!

Used to be a time I regularly carried shooters/hunters and their weapons in aircraft, transporting them to remote hunting blocks. Bye-and-large, they were a very reasonable, sensible and careful group of people to do business with. There's only one exception that sticks in my mind to this day...

That guy was a member of a party of 5 or 6 I was to drop at a remote beach location for a couple of weeks hunting. All of the party (except this one individual) were happy to comply with my requirement that weapons be disabled with the bolt/firing mechanism surrendered to me for carriage under my seat, and ammunition be packed again separately from the weapon. Just the one guy got busy dancing up-and-down on the spot telling me how many years he had been shooting, all his experience and that what I was asking was bull****... he was a PPL too, it seems. He eventually complied when it was put to him quite forcefully that non-compliance meant no travel -but even that was after considerable ego-stroking by his mates.

When I think back over the years, I have met a few "gun enthusiasts" in a non-aviation related sphere that are people you wouldn't want anywhere near you with a pea-shooter in their possession! I'm sure many of you have met people like them -they buy all their clothing from army surplus stores, even though they have never served in the military, their favourite movies are Rambo's and Terminator's, their only conversation is weapons and what they would do with them... tragically, we are all able to point to the results when some of these people fall off the rails. The Port Arthur's, the Aramoana's; there's not too many days that go by without reading of similar events in the US -or even Melbourne or Sydney these days either. I reckon that's why people -on both sides of the discussion- get a little passionate when weapons and aircraft are the topic.

There's been a lot of sense spoken here. I personally would probably not choose to carry a weapon, unless likely circumstances made that choice foolish; I would probably be quite comfortable with people like longrass carrying a weapon, from what I have seen here. It's "horses for courses" I reckon; you've got to make a decision based on your personal experience, circumstances and (in some cases) judgement of others.

[Metro man]

You'd want one if you were bush flying in PNG, preferably a pump action shotgun. If attacked by raskols you could get several with one blast, accuracy wouldn't be a problem like it would with a handgun.:E

[onetrack]

RS - Right on... a good post. There are way too many "hunters" and "gun enthusiasts" who should never be issued with anything larger than a chinese toy slingshot, who unfortunately have acquired numerous weapons.
The road signs and other signage you find blasted into scrap metal, are usually the indicators that these types have been around... :rolleyes:

There's three things I'd carry into a remote area. Lots of water (who could ever forget Keith Andersons horrible death)... a nice big sharp, robustly-made boning knife... and maybe a rifle if there were crocs or water buffs in the region.
Few people understand how utterly useless handguns are, except at very short range. The TV shows are wrong, it's virtually impossible with a handgun to plug your target at 120 metres, and watch as you hit the bullseye, and the target goes down in a screaming heap. Now, a rifle is a totally different kettle of fish... :suspect:
Most Australian wildlife doesn't need a weapon to keep it at bay... unless you're unlucky enough to come across a rogue bull who's intent on protecting his cows... or a wild stallion who's looking after his mares.
Mostly, these will prefer to run, anyway, they rarely attack unless hunted and cornered.
Longrass sounds a little too macho to me... you don't need 33 round magazines for anything, unless a horde of screaming VC are over-running your sentry post, and then 33 rounds ain't anywhere near enough... :suspect:

One carefully placed shot does more damage than 100 wildly-aimed ones... unless one follows American military techniques. I've owned weapons with 50 round magazines, all they do is encourage you to waste ammo.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Re
"(who could ever forget Keith Andersons horrible death)... "

And the poor guy in the 'Chippie' who missed Forrest....and whose aircraft was subsquently found by 'accident' by a survey aircraft many years later......

Memory is fading....was it Mr W. Knight?

Left his 'diary' scratched on the rudder.

Forget the 'macho' stuff.
Just the EPIRB - plenty of H2O - and the good ole' RFDS Fruit cake in the tin!
And....stay with the 'wreck' - 'tis much easier to see.....

:ok::ok:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Alas, the emergency pages of the ERSA are not as good as the old pink section in the VFG...some smartbum has tried to translate the mil survival syllabus into civilian use and have made a hash of it.

Good thing about it...by the time you read all of it and decifer what they are trying to tell you...you will be rescued:ok:

Carry water! Make up a survival kit and forget about the handgun!

[tinpis]

How many pilots have perished in the bush because they didn't have a handgun? :hmm:

[pilot2684]

One quote comes to mind when reading this topic. Was lifted from Alien Versus Predator.

Guns are like condoms. Better to have one and not need it, than it is to need one and not have it.

[heloguy412]

Come to the Arctic regions of Canada if you want/need to carry a weapon

Cheers
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs198.snc3/20575_1359625118864_1478633044_1783238_3660512_n.jpg

[Sunfish]

RS:

When I think back over the years, I have met a few "gun enthusiasts" in a non-aviation related sphere that are people you wouldn't want anywhere near you with a pea-shooter in their possession! I'm sure many of you have met people like them -they buy all their clothing from army surplus stores, even though they have never served in the military, their favourite movies are Rambo's and Terminator's, their only conversation is weapons and what they would do with them..


..First cousins of the "warrior poets" who occasionally found their way into infantry recruit training. They usually lasted a few months until they went into the bush for the first time. I always remember a naked one, sitting on the barracks roof at S Block, Pukka, at night, rifle in hand, crying his eyes out.

I can throw a Browning 9mm more accurately than I can shoot one. My shotgun and hunting rifles always seem to be locked in the gun safe when the snake comes out from under the house or the Sambur deer appears.


Having traveled from Burketown by road to Roper bar via the coast and fished for Barra in the Nicholson avec crocs, if I was a pilot traversing that country regularly, I think a handgun would be comforting, along with a lot of water. I wouldn't like to be injured with Dingos around either.

[frigatebird]

Forget the handgun for 'protection', too much hassle - what you need is a real survival tool - a good knife. Still got your Old Timer, tin? Used to carry mine all the time before Leatherman came along. A houseboy knocked off my Puma White Hunter, and the Gurka Kukri that a sister gave me from her travels.

Do yourself and other pilots a favour by helping to control the vermin around airports with something like these -(sadly gone now), (# and no thanks to Johnny, but he'd bring back conscription to put a gun in young hands, and send them off overseas #).
The 303/25 on the M17 action with the 4 power scope accounted for a few donkeys in the N.T. in the mid '60's, and the Sako Vixen .222 with the 6 power scope would take roos with head shots to preserve the skins then too. Reloaded for both at the time to keep the costs down.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Z%20Force%20Reunion/8-16-2010_001.jpg

[Spinnerhead]

They won't be aggrevated, they'll be dead, copping a .45inch copper jacketed hollow point between the eyes. Running at around 2540fps. Leaving a hole about the size of a tennis ball on the underside of its throat. Worked on a 4.5m salty and 700kg buffalo, and many a pig.....


Exactly what .45 cal pistol runs a velocity like this. The best I clould find was the .45 Winchester Magnum at 1900fps from a long 14 inch barrel, and that is with a light 185 grain bullet.

However the .458 Winchester Magnum (a rifle cartridge) gets close with 2500fps from a 25 inch barrel pushing a relatively light 350 grain bullet. This rifle by the way is an elephant slayer when loaded with 500 grain (about 1 oz) pills at approx 2100fps.

So tell us longrass what are you really packing, because clearly your hand gun does no where near 2540fps?

PS
All data collected from the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading.

[psycho joe]

I think that the people advocating the use of a handgun against something like a Croc or a buffalo should try reading some of the stories by the croc & buffalo hunters of the 1950's like Tom Cole. They talk of poorly aimed 303 rounds glancing off a crocs back without any effect. And as for buffalo hunting. The technique back in the day was to ride a horse up alongside a buffalo at full tilt and with one outstretched arm fire a 303 round into the spine, just behind the head.

So the must have survival item to be carried in a GA aircraft for marauding buffalo is a 303 ....and a horse.

I've also worked in parts of the world whereby i've been threatened with guns & occasionally been shot at. Two of those occasions involved pax who were police officers, one a very senior PNG police officer and his off sider involving a loaded M16. And the other a white constable who went long long from shear heat and isolation in the tropics (Pacific-middle of nowhere) and gave me the honour of seeing what a Glock loaded with 9mm hollow points looks like up close and personal. On all of those occasions the macho in me would have loved to have been carrying a hip cannon, but the reality is that on all those occasions being unarmed certainly saved my life. If I'd have been carrying, then things would have escalated in a second. The loss of face would have resulted in shots fired and either me bleeding to death in some 3rd world sh!thole or still be explaining how it is that I came to kill a police officer. On all the other occasions, I simply wouldn't have been able to carry enough rounds to have escaped alive even if I could shoot it out.

Small consolation though it may be, most people who shoot at planes haven't been trained to "lead" the aircraft. And most people who set up road ambushes don't expect you to put your foot down & drive through them. :E

[longrass]

After the Monash University shooting in 2002, a federal law was introduced which limits all magazines to a maximum of 10 rounds. Congrats in proving to fellow pilots that your a gun zealot that ignores the rules and regs surrounding gun ownership.

There is NO federal law on firearms, never has been. There was a federal "agreement" to limit the ownership of certain handguns to "sports shooters". Occupational license holders have no regulation on barrel length, calibre or capacity.

I suggest you turn in the magazines to your nearest police station, so some idiot can't get your 9mm with 33 rounds....

My firearms are locked in 280kg Chubb safe in a locked room, the magazines and locked in a seperate locker, which contains the bolts for my long arms and the ammunition in a seperate locker. The criminals didnt hand in their estimated 350'000 black market handguns, the majority of which were fitted with high cap mags, which were affected by your so called "federal law".

[longrass]

I think that the people advocating the use of a handgun against something like a Croc or a buffalo should try reading some of the stories by the croc & buffalo hunters of the 1950's like Tom Cole

Ive killed crocs and buffalo with handguns mate, in fact, I have dropped a buffalo at close range with a .22 revolver. The majority, read nearly all, buffalo hunter/croc hunter, my dad and alot of his mates included, carried .357 or .44 wheel guns when traversing the top end. I have met most of the blokes in the book "The Crocodile Men".

This one shot behing the eye, in front of the ear, with a single shot out of a .45acp, dont try to tell me they are useless, they work!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4897552160_c405d88ffa.jpg

[longrass]

How many pilots have perished in the bush because they didn't have a handgun?

I know a few pilots that are alive because they took a firearm...

If you dont want to own/carry one, then please dont...

[longrass]

So tell us longrass what are you really packing, because clearly your hand gun does no where near 2540fps?

In my .45 cal lineup, i currently own the following:

Norinco 1911 - Government - 45acp
Springfield 1911 - Loaded - 45acp
Springfield 1911 - Compact Custom II - 45acp
Springfield 1911 - Desert Warrior - 45acp
Glock - 21 - 45acp
Glock - 37 - 45gap
S&W - M&P - 45acp
S&W - 25 - 45 long colt
S&W - 460VXR - 45colt/454casull/460
Ruger - Vaquero - 45 long colt
Ruger - Vaquero - 45 long colt
Taurus - Raging Bull - 454 casull

Im pretty sure I have more as well, however I wont waste anymore of your time... Thats just .45 cal handguns, I have a whole stack of lever, bolt, pump and semi auto rifles as well...

[Mr.Buzzy]

Woo wee! That sure is one helluva line-up there Tackleberry!
I bet you could talk a croc into pissing off.