2 Aircraft down near Abingdon

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

An aircraft and glider have both crashed in Oxfordshire, a fire service spokeswoman has confirmed.
Emergency crews were called at 1417 BST to the incident between Drayton and Sutton Courtenay, near Abingdon.
The spokeswoman could not confirm if the plane had been towing the glider but both had "come down".
Five fire engines and a number of officers were in attendance along with ambulance and police teams, the spokeswoman added.



BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8099551.stm)

[MarcJF]

Sky reporting two killed, sad.

[bank_angle]

Sounds almost certain to be a mid-air :(. Condolences to all involved.

[Slopey]

BBC News 24 reporting 2 RAF personnel in aircraft colliding with civilian glider

[G-CPTN]

Four months ago:- BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | Four die in mid-air plane crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7883338.stm)

[IO540]

Given the reports of a loud bang, it sounds like a low level collision. Any data on how high they were?

[cats_five]

High enough for the glider pilot to use his / her parachute. Was the bang heard by the witness the collision or something hitting the ground? We have no idea.

[airborne_artist]

RAF/MoD reported on BBCi as saying it was a Tutor aircraft with two RAF personnel on board.

"The RAF personnel had been in a Tutor single-engine training craft when it collided with a civilian glider, the Ministry of Defence said."

[G-CPTN]

Don't RAF Tutors fly with parachutes too?
Maybe the glider pilot 'saw it coming' . . .

[flyingwelshman]

does anyone know which ATC sqd was flying today? (if you could PM rather than post if you think its more appropriate).

thanks

[G-CPTN]

RAF Benson according to the Beeb (for the Tutor base) - might be OUAS.
6 Air Experience Flight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_Air_Experience_Flight)

[Molesworth 1]

According to a witness quoted in the Oxford Mail (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/yourtown/abingdon/4437740.UPDATE__Air_cadet_and_RAF_instructor_killed/)

" the engine of the glider stopped and then it came down and someone parachuted out"

[Desspot]

"...the engine of the glider stopped"

That statement sums up ground level eye witnesses. You just don't know whether to laugh or cry.

A truely horrible weekend for GA.

[Blues&twos]

"...the engine of the glider stopped"

I'm no expert, but aren't there such things as "powered gliders"? I'm quite happy to be put right by someone in the know about these things.

[G-CPTN]

An acquaintance who started his working life with Pickfords Heavy Haulage was sent on his first job (as an assessor) to plan the move of a glider engine.

(the equivalent of being sent to the stores for a long stand)

[Chinchilla.612]

flyingwelshman,
Was one of my cadets. Check your pms.
Chinchilla.

[BeechNut]

I'm no expert, but aren't there such things as "powered gliders"? I'm quite happy to be put right by someone in the know about these things.

Indeed, one of my flying friends has one, a Pipistrel Sinus (http://www.pipistrel.si/planes/33)

[Pedro848]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLARM

Flarm is widely used in Switzerland.

Essentially it is a peer to peer collision avoidance system which is Open Source, it is simply a GPS attached to a small cheap computer and a low power radio.

The computer reads the GPS and broadcasts the a/c track & position on a public frequency.

The computer also listens out for radio messages from other aircraft and computes collision risk and displays any risk by way of a series of leds and buzzer.

The Flarm box has built in antennas, all it needs is a power supply, it is light and small enough to velcro on top of the panel.

It costs 600 swissies - approx £350

[cats_five]

Don't RAF Tutors fly with parachutes too?
<snip>


I went looking for images on Google to answer that question, and found one of Prince William & his instructor getting into a Tutor apparently both wearing parachutes so it seems that yes, they do.

Photo from Getty Images - News, photos, topics, and quotes (http://www.daylife.com/photo/0gwE3crbntgeA)

[Discus_296]

High enough for the glider pilot to use his / her parachute. Was the bang heard by the witness the collision or something hitting the ground? We have no idea.

Based on a detailed conversation with the pilot of a glider who witnessed the crash, 4000 ish feet, most likely it was the ground impact that was heard....

A sad day indeed...

[cats_five]

Pedro, Flarm only helps where both aircraft have it fitted. I do intend fitting it to my glider, but as nearly everything in the UK with it fitted is a glider it won't help me avoid GA, just (some) other gliders. The cost in the UK is also just over £500, not £350.

[KembleKid]

I spent a couple of years as a Civilian Instructor with an ATC Sqn. and took my cadets to Benson for Air Experience Flights on many occasions. At this sad time, I'd like to pay tribute to the people who operate the AEF flight. I know the care and diligence with which the operation is run. I'm sure those personnel associated with the AEF flight at Benson will be utterly devastated by this loss.

I've seen many very nervous cadets pass through their hands and head out to the aircraft, only to return 30 minutes later grinning from ear to ear and being hooked on flying from that point.

The AEF Pilots are generally retired RAF personnel with many thousands of hours experience. I myself was flown in a Tutor by an Air Vice Marshall. As a PPL holder myself, I could apprecate the skill and experience of these guys.

As tragic as this is, let's hope that the powers that be allow the AEF scheme to continue. Thousands of Cadets have had their first experience of flying through the AEF, and I'm sure that for many, this was a defining moment in their future career choices.

[Pedro848]

600CHF - as usual, we get charged a premium :(

There is no legal reason Flarm cannot be used in GA a/c, it would not require any approval, and can be powered from a rechargeable battery pack

Even at £500 a pop, it's far cheaper than mode S which offers almost no benefit to weekend fliers.

Obviously it's a critical mass thing, as more UK a/c get Flarm, the benefit to all increases, because of the low weight, there is no barrier to using the device in very light aircraft and even powered chutes.

The latest versions can even include a database of ground hazards which hopefully would stop some of the "controlled flight into rising ground" accidents.

Had both the aircraft involved in yesterday's accident been Flarm equipped, two priceless lives would probably have been saved.

[whiterock]

This is a dreadful event which any pilot would want to avoid.

However, the solution for GA is not as simple as putting a gadget on the panel
to do the looking for us.

The FLARM is a good device for glider pilots in the environment they fly. But only any good if all the other aircraft likely to be met in the air are likewise equippped.

I have installed a FLARM system to a GA aircraft engaged in glider towing. When fitted to a powered aircraft it needs to be heard over the noise of the engine and radio. It will therefore need to be properly powered and connected to the aircraft's audio system. This will involve a modification to the aircraft which will need CAA approval (for a fee) and installation (for a fee).

To connect the FLARM to the audio you will also need a FLOICE unit, which is a voice-intercom interface.

Remember that a glider pilot usually has a bubble canopy with excellent vision capabilities so in the event that a FLARM warning is given (visible and audible) the pilot can quickly look for the conflict and take avoiding action. I believe the range of the FLARM is such that a warning is given 15-20 seconds before possible conflict.

Most GA aircraft do not have such good all-round vision and as such, a FLARM alert may not give the pilot time to digest the audible and visible information, look out to verify, given the many blind spots inherent in GA aircraft and take the correct avoiding action.

As is so often the case in these events, it is better to wait for the AAIB report before deciding a course of action based on where the perceived problem was in this case.

[Flying_Anorak]

I took the decision to fit FLARM to my glider (total cost just over £650) for the 'Red Box' variant after having a conflict alert in a FLARM equipped club glider in Nth Yorkshire a year or so ago.

It does not and should not replace a good look-out discipline but I have already had one conflict alert with another FLARM equipped glider when we were approaching virtually head on at similar altitude. Would I have seen it? I'd like to think so but with FLARM it immediately drew my eyes to the bit of sky where the contact appeared and avoiding action was taken with no drama.

Money well spent? I think so and you get an extra IGC approved logger too!

[Pedro848]

What you say about buzzers is true, however the cost of having a Flarm wired in is still a lot less than a mode-S set which would have been no use whatsoever. In any case there is no need for it to be wired in, all it needs is an in-line plug & jack connected to a noise out jack on the Flarm box.

Regarding poor all round visibility - that surely reinforces the point, if your bimbling around in a 152 and you get a glider coming down from above your wing, at least it gives you the chance to dive away from unseen danger.

If the CAA must mandate me to fit some form of device, I would much sooner fit something that has a chance of being of benefit.

Nothing beats the Mark 1 eyeball - well, apart from technology - it's available, lets encourage it's use.

Pete

[whiterock]

To Pete,

If the job is to be done properly, you fit the device FLARM supply for the purpose. The alarm must "interupt" all other communication. You surely would not bodge the job?

Given the FLARM's rudimentary visual indication of possible conflict, how would you know the "glider", in your example, is above your wing and "coming down", particularly as you cannot see it and give you enough time to evaluate the threat and react correctly.

The FLARM, for GA, is an aid but a very limited one and I would estimate the proper system for a powered aeroplane would cost close to £1000, including approval and installation.

"Remember; Flarm is not a substitute for good lookout but an aid to better lookout." (UK dealer statement - for gliders)

I am not an advocate for Mode-S and there is no point in promoting FLARM on the basis it is cheaper than Mode-S. But I do prefer pilots that I share the sky with to be looking out rather than at a gadget on the panel which, if it is dormant, implies there is nothing to look for. Which is a danger I think.

[cats_five]

<snip>
Given the FLARM's rudimentary visual indication of possible conflict, how would you know the "glider", in your example, is above your wing and "coming down", particularly as you cannot see it and give you enough time to evaluate the threat and react correctly.
<snip>


If you look at the page for Flarm on the LX site, you can click on the image of the Swiss Flarm and get a better view of the front panel. The LEDs show where the threat is on a clock dial (related to track), and if it's above or below. If it's above you (or your wing) and going up it's not a threat so won't cause an alarm. The image of the LX flarm panel is equally clear.

[Rod1]

If the Glider had had £390 worth of PCAS he would have “seen” the Tutor (assuming it had a transponder. If the BGA encouraged the fitting of Flarm and PCAS and the rest of us fitted Flarm and PCAS we would all be £1000 less well off but much less likely to fly into each other. I am hoping to test a Flarm in my MCR very soon (will report back) and already have PCAS. Collision avoidance which combines detection of Flarm and Transponders is less than 12 months away.

Rod1

[tmmorris]

All AEF/UAS Tutors squawk at all times outside the circuit, so PCAS would indeed have helped.

Tim

[Rod1]

“All AEF/UAS Tutors squawk at all times outside the circuit, so PCAS would indeed have helped.”

That is good, but it would be even better if they used them in the circuit as well.

Rod1

[JW411]

Can anyone tell me the names of the Grob crew?

A lot of my ex-RAF friends fly for the AEF.

Thank you.

[mally35]

JW 411 check your PMs please.

[Chinchilla.612]

Names have been posted on the military aircrew forum and there is a thread to leave respects.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/377876-raf-tutor-glider-collision-condolences-thread.html#post4999348
Rgds
Chinchilla.

[G-CPTN]

Has the AAIB report been published for the February AEF crash?
( BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | Four die in mid-air plane crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7883338.stm) )

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/361787-bbc-reporting-possible-mid-air-collision.html

[englishal]

Part of the safety problem is "over regulation". Why do we need approval to hard wire in a FLARM device? What approvals are required to wire something like this into the a/c power supply and GPS

I have a PCAS hard wired into my panel mounted G496. It shows the traffic on the GPS screen with amazing accuracy. I would buy a FLARM box too, but don't want a standalone unit, what I want is just the processor and Tx/Rx parts....I want to use my GPS to send the GPS position to FLARM then take the output from FLARM and display traffic on my GPS, together with the PCAS traffic.

I have my GPS wired into the intercom so it speaks (Terrain / Traffic etc..) so that gets over the alert problem too.

That way I can have the guts of the FLARM hidden behind my panel and a hull mounted FLARM antenna, and ideally shouldn't cost more than £300. Ideally I'd like the PCAS hidden out of the way too but until they come up with a hull mountable directional antenna I'll have to get used to having it suction mounted to the windscreen when I fly.

Is there an option for buying FLARM without the GPS unit, seeing as many aeroplanes have GPS anyway?