"Student Pilots Question Education"

[PyroTek]

Saw this on SBS news last night, surprised nobody else saw it:
SBS Video Player (http://player.sbs.com.au/naca/#/naca/wna/Latest/playlist/Student-pilots-question-education/)

:suspect:Pyro

[PlankBlender]

beer, check

popcorn, check

armchair, check

this should be interesting :}

[VH-XXX]

No need for words planky, I've got your post wrapped up with this pic.

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/MichealJacksonPopcorn.gif

[GA715]

Haha thats hilarious.. who would have known. Nah, it couldn't be, these students are just plain hopeless. Aerospace aviation is a world class flight training organisation. :yuk:

That aside, there are quite a handful of dodgy FTO at ysbk. :ugh:

[tobz92_ymen]

sausage factory, just maybe

[Jabawocky]

Won't be long before this one gets closed too I reckon...... thread that is!:ooh:

[PlankBlender]

..well unless someone can add something new that's probably for the better, too (ie closing the discussion).

The way it looks from the outside a few students had their expectations severely adjusted (I wonder had they finished all of their theory or just thought whining was a better use of their time? :}) , and once they figured out what the game was, they got p!ssed that they paid upfront and had nowhere to go, or didn't know how to fight for their contractual right other than going to the media :hmm:

Ah well, another reminder never to pay up front and to vote with your feet if you don't get the service that you think you deserve for shelling out your hard earned (or daddy's, for that matter)..

Guys, if you're reading this, get a lawyer and sue the school if your lawyer thinks you have a case, otherwise go back and finish your training with the money already paid, and once the account is empty go to another school and finish it there. And just accept as a lesson learned that paying upfront is really never ever okay in whatever business or deal or any other circumstance unless you get a very very tangible (e.g. monetary like a big discount) incentive for the risk you're taking by paying upfront.

[tmpffisch]

I'm not absolutely certain how it works Owen, but the student can't get their visa unless they are enrolled in a course and its paid for. So they have no choice.

[PlankBlender]

tmpffisch, not quite, I first came into the country on an education visa and I only had to prove to the school that I had the funds to pay for the course (bank statement), but I didn't (and most certainly wouldn't have, there are enough other countries in the world that will take your money bit by bit) pay upfront but as I went, or more to the point I paid in ten hour blocks because PHS gives a discount and it's par for the course in terms of risk.

Anyone (!) paying anything of substance upfront in total is nuts, plain and simple!

[Worrals in the wilds]

From DIMIA's website...appears to back up Plankbender's case.
Course enrolment, attendance and progress. You must remain enrolled in a course registered on the Commonwealth Register of Institutions and Courses for Overseas Students (CRICOS).
See: CRICOS (http://cricos.deewr.gov.au/)

You must maintain satisfactory attendance in your course as required by your education provider.
You must make satisfactory course progress for each study period.
Your education provider will advise the department if your attendance or course progress is not satisfactory. The definition of 'satisfactory' is determined by your education provider.

Financial Capacity
You must maintain enough money to pay for travel, tuition and living expenses for yourself, your spouse and your dependent children for the duration of your stay in Australia.
Vocational Education and Training Sector: Temporary Visa (Subclass 572) - Assessment Level 4 (http://www.immi.gov.au/students/students/572-4/obligations-student.htm)

I don't see anything about having to pay upfront. Some schools may be telling their students they have to pay upfront to enroll, which sounds a bit fishy :suspect:, but we all know some schools will say anything. Caveat Emptor, as always, particularly when dealing with a foreign (Australian) company.

It does not appear to be a government requirement.

[Fonz121]

Why is anyone surprised by this? Anyone who has ever had anything to do with the school knows its far from professional. I admit I have never had anything to do with the place personally but the instructors that fled from there to our school had plenty of entertaining stories on how this outfit is run.
Im not taking the side of the students as its highly possible that it could come down to thier inadequacies but these sausage factories in BK have some horror stories which makes this story very believable.
Its a disgrace when schools send foreign students out to get "command" hours but have to have an instructor in the right hand seat to supervise. This is done to make sure they get the students out in time for the foreign airline's deadline. This happens. These operators should be shut down.

[Clearedtoreenter]

I don't think the schools and universtiies can be entirely blamed for this. Its been a gravy train for a few years now. The education industry needs more regulation from top to bottom when it comes to the treatment of international students and this situation is not doing our international reputation any good at all. On the one hand we have private agents on fat commissions combing India and many other places, telling prosepective students 'who knows what' to get them and their sometimes not well off parents to sell stuff, mortgage the family home, get student loans or whatever to get their kids a decent future. Then they get the 'promise' of permanent residence in some circumstances. Its a marketing jamboree out there and some agents are fully delegated to attract recruit and sign up. Often an education institution does not who they are gettiung until they turn up on the doorstep. Sometimes these guys have limited English skills, are ill prepared for study in an Australian culture, are just plain immature and really should not be here to study at all. A few, but only a few in my experience, seem to just see an opportunity to come to Australia and have no serious intention of studying at all.

Institutions come under pressure to take lots of these students (or just go for the fees), find themselves unable to cope, have inadequate staff and facilities, cram more students into already over-stretched classes etc etc but its all very lucrative. Its not just small flying schools falling into this trap. Some of our universities are so dependent on international student income that they could not survive as they are without it.

Its not surprising they're whining. They are fed very high expectations before they get here. The problems can be fixed but it needs a bit of leadership in the education industry generally... and a more ethical approach to recruiting in some cases if we really want to stop the dodgey students coming...

The 'Wow...more whinging indian students. seems to be the trendy thing to do atm-foreign student protests' attitude is not going to help much. These guys are paying big money, very big money when you consider their average wage there compared to here, and deserve some value for it.

[tmpffisch]

I stand corrected then. I'm sure I've heard that from someone though. Is it possible that some schools won't give these students a 'notice of enrollment' etc. to provide to immigration, unless they have paid up front?

[D-J]

Sometimes these guys have limited English skills, are ill prepared for study in an Australian culture, are just plain immature and really should not be here to study at all. A few, but only a few in my experience, seem to just see an opportunity to come to Australia and have no serious intention of studying at all.

Having lived with a number of indian students, the above hit the nail on the head. There is defiantly an expectation amongst a lot of these students I;ve come across that because they've paid their money they expect to get a license regardless of their performance.....

What's really scary is flying with a group of Indian cpl holders sent over by indian airlines to build hours :eek: they wouldn't have passed a GFPT when they first arrived

Having said that, I've seen some really good international students come out of the smaller school around BK, just depends on how much time the school has to invest in the student

[Inbound Outbound]

Yeah totally agree with Owen Stanley!

I mean the money we pay in this industry is not Monopoly money! And as the years go by these aircraft rates are most likely to increase.
Therefore pay as you go is the way to do it... No pressures!

In Out

[43Inches]

D-J, one of the big problems is the recruiting agents who are paid good commissions. In some cases these guys are promising minimum hour training and not explaining the fact that most students require significantly more hours to complete a course. Hence the expectation that the money they've paid will guarantee a licence. The training organisations usually don't explain to the struggling students that they will require extra funds when it is obvious pre-solo. Usually the first time the student is made aware that they need more cash to complete is when the initial money runs out. Sometimes this could be during PPL training for a fully paid CPL MECIR!

Some basic rules for dealing with flying training orgs;

1. Don't trust sales agents (including those who are pilots)

2. Don't pay upfront

3. Select from a number of training providers and research each one

4. You are going to spend thousands of dollars doing the course so at least spend the first thousand with a trip to Australia and visit the schools you have in mind. Check out the facilities and aircraft and maybe even go for a trail instructional flight if you havn't flown before. Whilst there speak to a number of current students about whether they think they got value for their money and good instruction. Also ask if the flying/study has been structured and predictable following a well organised internal syllabus.

5. Once you start your training ensure that you stay on track, read your training records regularly and get honest opinions of your progression. If you are falling behind you can do things to improve.

6. Get financial statements regularly from your training organisation about where the money is going, what are you being charged for.

7 Alway cater for the possibility the school is not worth attending and change to a better one.