View Full Version : Terror suspects and the use of control orders


D SQDRN 97th IOTC
10th Jun 2009, 12:54
BBC NEWS | UK | Terror suspects win legal battle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8092763.stm)

It seems Lord Hoffman regretted that the binding ECHR decision in A v United Kingdom required the appeals to be allowed.

For full judgment see:
House of Lords - Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) <i>v </i>AF (Appellant) (FC) and another (Appellant) and one other action (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200809/ldjudgmt/jd090610/af-1.htm)

A very important question is being raised in this case. Can it be right that society can partially deprive someone of his complete liberty or can impose obligations on him / her by the use of control orders, because in so doing it might prevent some possible future act of terrorism ? Can it also be right that the issuance of control orders can be based upon closed / secret materials gathered by the security services?

Closed materials have often been used when suspected terrorists are before the courts, and there may be some amenity (like the keeping of national security) in not allowing those suspected terrorists to challenge and cross examine such materials in open court.

Natural Justice has a pillar which requires that a defendant has a right to hear the case against him, ("audi alteram partem" - I hear the other side) and to also be heard in answer to that case.

The previous position in the UK was that notwithstanding this pillar, a defendant could still achieve substantial justice when a decision was based on closed material.

The A v UK decision however says that where such evidence is "decisive", the requirements of a fair hearing will never be satisfied. So the balance between the individual and society swings back more towards the individual following this decision.

I hope that there is not now some future terrorist act in the UK which may have been prevented by the use of a control order.



Blacksheep
10th Jun 2009, 13:54
Can it be right that society can partially deprive someone of his complete liberty or can impose obligations on him / her by the use of control orders, because in so doing it might prevent some possible future act of terrorism ? There are not and never have been any "rights" for foreign citizens to remain in any country, other than the right to return home to that country of which they are citizens. Non-citizens remain in a country by permission. The subjects of Control Orders are not therefore deprived of their liberty. They remain perfectly free to return home at any time of their choosing.

It is my opinion that the HCHR apply a much wider definition of "Human Rights" than that which would be recognised by the man on the Clapham omnibus. The citizens of any country have the right to be protected from those who wish them harm.

Lightning Mate
10th Jun 2009, 14:20
I hope that there is not now some future terrorist act in the UK which may have been prevented by the use of a control order.

I bet there will be!

Scumbag O'Riley
10th Jun 2009, 16:10
And even if there isn't we will be told there has been.

Captain Stable
10th Jun 2009, 16:24
Ain't that the truth, SO'R?!

We will be told of this, that or the other threat which is imminent and which urgently requires us to give up (or, rather, have taken from us) some hard-won right for which people died sometime back in the Middle Ages and has been recognised ever since until NooLabour came to power. That threat will then come to very little except that a bunch of "suspected terrorists" will be arrested in a surprise dawn raid that nobody knew about except the photographers and correspondents of the Daily Telegraph, the Mail, the Daily Express and the Times. Our GLorious Leader, Gordon Brown, will announce in the House that his Labour Government are keeping Britain safe from terrorism. Then the said suspects will be held in custody for a few days until everybody (meaning, the Press) has forgotten about them and then charges will be quietly dropped and they will be released.

'Twas ever thus. Sic biscuitus disintegrat.

Dick Fisher
10th Jun 2009, 18:18
What surprises me about all of this is that New Labour is packed to the gunwales with lawyers of one sort or another. I would guess that there are also more than enough legal experts within the Civil service who are paid handsomely to provide advice when laws are drafted.

So why is it that this lot can't seem to produce laws that actually deliver the desired result? Time for this lot to go methinks and give someone else a chance.

StaceyF
10th Jun 2009, 18:36
Bear in mind the current shower of ***** that passes for a Government has enabled legislation so that terrorism laws can be used against people who put the wrong type of rubbish into their wheely bins.

Heck, didn't the UK Government invoke terrorism laws against the Icelandic Government for their banking infrastructure collapse?

Brewster Buffalo
10th Jun 2009, 19:17
I would guess that there are also more than enough legal experts within the Civil service who are paid handsomely to provide advice when laws are drafted. So why is it that this lot can't seem to produce laws that actually deliver the desired result?

Well maybe ministers were given advice from the civil service that this legislation wouldn't work but ignored it...

Captain Stable
10th Jun 2009, 19:25
What surprises me about all of this is that New Labour is packed to the gunwales with lawyers of one sort or another.Yep - but ask a government lawyer a question and you get one answer. Threaten him with losing his job or bung him a backhander, and you get another. Go with the second and refuse to publish the first.