Beware of the copper flying at night with the lights off....

[PlankBlender]

http://casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/rules/miscinst/2009/casaex44.pdf

This allows the NSW police to fly at night without any lights. IFR only and lights must come on under certain circumstances, but basically, f you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time you could get the scare of your life or worse :eek:

I sure hope it would only ever happen in a radar environment so ATC at least have a chance to spot VFR traffic nearby, and one would hope that no copper pilot would attempt such a flight without a proper TCAS system on board, but geez we're in assumption land already :suspect:

[tmpffisch]

I believe the Victoria Police also do the same now. Makes sense because of their night vision equipment, but a few months ago I could clearly hear the helicoper was very close, but could not sight it. Occured OCTA, albeit would have been at less than 1000ft AGL.

[VH-XXX]

Not dangerous if operating under IFR given the ATC requirements.

Try digging up some of the other excemptions that will stir some of us up, like the C208 excemptions for IFR over water with 1 pilot, carriage explosives, parachting through clouds, SAR and some of the other dodgey ones.

[Checklist Charlie]

The Victorian Muppets don't need lights, you can hear them coming long before you ever see them.

[greenslopes]

Yeh but thats only cos Gonzo's on the drums.

[Dangly Bits]

I'd want my lights off too if someone was taking pot shots at me in the middle of the night.

[Checklist Charlie]

Dangly Bits, I think it is more to do with the 'hairy chested covert ops" self image than anything else.

The Muppets have always been a bit strange.

[Trojan1981]

I have seen (Just in moonlight) Polair hovering, lights off, at about 1000ft, 2-3 nm west of BK. The sound of their helos is very distinctive. Is this safe?
Why is it necessary? Even on NVG in the ADF we would usually have red tip/tail lights flashing.

[wheatbix]

I have seen (Just in moonlight) Polair hovering, lights off, at about 1000ft, 2-3 nm west of BK. The sound of their helos is very distinctive. Is this safe?
Why is it necessary? Even on NVG in the ADF we would usually have red tip/tail lights flashing.

Is this safe? Like everything there's risk management involved. You don't know what they were doing or which aircraft they were flying (S/E or M/E). They've been doing a lot of NVG training at the moment as well. As annoying as helicopter noise may be, I'm sure they'd be a reason for them being there.

[Checklist Charlie]

I'm sure they'd be a reason for them being there.

Of course there is a reason, it's for our security isn't it.

Whether we need it or not!

[Trojan1981]

I was thinking more about the risk of a mid-air, rather than whether it was a single or twin (looked like an AS350, maybe 355). This was in an area of high traffic flow, although late at night, when most inbound aircraft are IFR freighters.

[Freewheel]

Not sure about it's wisdom near the BK approaches, but it would certainly make it harder to target with a laser pointer......

[rmcdonal]

A chopper hovering around the 500-1000ft mark at night with no lights in and around a built up area such as a city would be very difficult to spot, and as such be very difficult to avoid as a bad guy trying to get away.
I doubt they would cruise around in normal traffic lanes without their lights, basically if you where to hit them you would have to be in the wrong spot doing the wrong thing.

[Black Maria]

Checklist Charlie

Hi, read your post and cant help but comment.....

It is quite possible that there are valid arguments to what you are trying to say .....unfortunately you have only posted a personal view that you have failed to support.

Perhaps you could go away and do some research, and once done, why don't you then come back here and use any newfound knowledge to support your point.

You might then be able to argue and maybe support your view .

I guess what I am saying is, put up or shut up. :bored:

BTW....Muppets, you actually remember that show???

[Sunfish]

It must be the Marijuana hothouse imaging season again....

Thermal imaging makes them stand out like the proverbial at 2.00am on a cold night.

[Fratemate]

Guys,

These are professional pilots we're talking about. They are not going to be hovering around the circuit pattern or on the approaches to airfields with their cloaking devices on. Likewise, the conduct of their operation means they are not going to be flying above 1000' and, most of the time, they are going to be flying above and around surburban areas. If you come close to a police helicopter whilst flying your Cessna (or whatever) over a town/city, at night, less than 1000' I would suggest it's you who needs to have your bumps felt and should not be allowed near a paper aeroplane, let alone a real one.

I've got no interest in this, other than this thread but there's nothing dangerous about this, although it does give some of the uninformed an excuse to vent their spleen over their own 'issues'.

[Checklist Charlie]

Well, well. Such sensitivity.:{

The 'Muppets' description is taken from a relevant segment of that show and was always tongue in cheek. :p

[Trojan1981]

Fratemate,
I agree they are professionals and I assume they would recieve separtion from IFR Traffic inbound to BK. The Helo i saw was operating in the Moorebank (Newbrige Rd) area, which is quite close to BK and earlier in the day, would be in the cct area.

[Towering Q]

although it does give some of the uninformed an excuse to vent their spleen over their own 'issues'.

You got that right.

[mickk]

IMO there is no tactical or operational reason for Polair to run in "stealth" mode. They can hide from no one on the ground unless they are deaf and blind. A blacked out copper chopper is still visible against the sky. Its not Operation Delta, why on earth would they want to do this? There is no air threat to them, they cant hide from green lasers, they have absolutely no need to fly with lights off.

Perhaps they say the stobes reduce night vision capabilities? but this is not true. Strobes have no detrimental effect on NVS in a civilian police environment. Victoria is not Swat Valley, theres no one shooting at you here. Sounds like too much time in the hanger watching youtube to me.

There are no missiles here, no point and shoot guns. No one can reach you up there in your annoying machines. I give you the fact that it is about the best job in the world, but dont try to make it something it aint.

I think it has more to do with certain elements of policing units nation wide thinking they are some kind of S.A.S. regiment. You are not. You are just coppers. You are not the army or anything else. Copper Choppers observe, search and rescue. Occasionally, like once every 10 years they insert the SOG on a farm. The rest of the time, its searchlight work. DUH!

SOG are just a bunch of frustrated middle aged men anyway.

[VH-XXX]

The Dauphine or whatever that big thing is is NOT their only chopper in Melbourne you know! Not only do they cross-hire/use aircraft but they also have an AS350 at their disposal in Police colours. The big bang bus they fly most of the time can be heard from 5 kms away agreed!

[triton140]

They can hide from no one on the ground unless they are deaf and blind. A blacked out copper chopper is still visible against the sky.


My sentiments entirely - what's the point? Unless they can knock out the wocka wocka sound, they're pretty much stuffed I reckon.

Plus I can always request they turn on their lights if I need to identify them :rolleyes:.

This whole damn security thang has just gotten way out of hand :ugh:

[Towering Q]

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k176/towering_q/bluethunder06.jpg

[blade root]

WA Police have been using "polair black" for years, whats the big deal.

It obvisiously works as it has taken this long for it to get out.

Used on ATC approval and as Fratmate says, if your at the level they are - you have more to worry about than hitting a helicopter.

Unless your doing something wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

[Bell_Flyer]

This whole damn security thang has just gotten way out of hand Amen to that.

[tio540]

mickk

There appears to be some unfounded hostility towards Airwing here.

Lets get the following facts straight.

(i) the helicopters do get shot at

(ii) you don't hear about it so some other idiot doesn't try it

(ii) the crews are experienced, professional and some are ex military Blackhawk drivers

(iii) they should decide tactical procedures not anyone here.

(iv) the SOG do significantly more than farm visits

(v) four of my friends were shot dead in safe Victoria, one has a slug in the brain and is waiting for a bump to the head to kill him, and the other has one in the spine, and he no longer walks. All police.

(vi) if they wake you at 3 am or make your television fuzzy then they are probably stopping some **** bag stealing your stuff so harden up.

They are the good guys remember that! Have a nice day.

[PlankBlender]

tio540, great post!

I must say I'm much less concerned about the whole thing after learning more about how these operations are conducted!

[triadic]

A few years back I lived in a large country city close to the airport and one night about 1am I heard a fixed wing aircraft operating in the area, so I went for a wander outside and sure enough I could see the aircraft against the background sky, but he showed no lights whatsoever... I checked to see if the runway lights were on and they were off. I got the handheld and gave a bcast on the local MBZ (as it was then) without reply. I activated the runway lights and made a call to centre as I thought the aircraft may have had an electrical failure. They new nothing of any operations in the area (no plan VFR or IFR) (no radar coverage) but followed it up. Seems it was the local Air Wing doing some night detective work. Our friendly FOI called me a day later to 'brief' me on what was going on etc. Fine I said, but if they are going to do that sort of stuff then at least someone in centre should know about it (to handle any calls etc) - he did not think so and said I had comprised their mission. Tough!! Given the same circumstances I would do the same again. No lights if the circumstances so demand, but someone has to know so that do-gooders like me on the night can go back to bed!!!

:uhoh:

[YPJT]

A blacked out copper chopper is still visible against the sky
Depends. Against a clear moonlit night or silhouetted against cloud maybe. But clear dark sky and with significant ambient lighting on the ground it would be more difficult. It is only one of a suite of measures designed to increase their effectiveness and security.

[mickk]

I will bite because they are big boys.

I dont want to hear about ex blackhawk drivers and night vision goggles, roaming around the skies of melbourne. Not a good record in that area.

Police get shot at and a tiny % get shot and even less die. Its part of the job. Firemen get burnt, parking oficers get spat at and abused. These things are to be expected. Cops are in the job because they expect to get shot at one day. If they didnt, then they wouldnt live long. So they accept the risk.

Do you really think that if the TV reports a chopper was shot, people would flee to their backyards and do the same thing, go off like an Iraqi wedding party?

The SOG do very litle in choppers other than farms. Theres no fast roping into Malvern. Its pertty hard to land a team of the Sons of God in a suburban street.

Polair tracks cars and crims. It also does rescue work and looks for dope plantations and missing persons, boats etc. It does a few other things too. None of the above or anything else requires the necessity for running without lights.

Training sure, but as SOP its BS and is just an ego trip.

[The PM]

I find it interesting that the Police Integrity Commission is the organisation granted the exemption.In other words the air wing won't be tracking car hoons or your friendly neighbourhood pharmeceutical supplier on these ops but instead watching suspected bent cops..........

[tio540]

mickk

I won't go through my list again. However.

Do you really think that if the TV reports a chopper was shot, people would flee to their backyards and do the same thing, go off like an Iraqi wedding party?


In response I would like to mention that in the 90's one person jumped off the West Gate Bridge each week. This was not made public, for the reasons I have already mentioned. When the media finally got hold of it and reported same there was one attempt per day. Police were then forced to negotiate with more nuckle heads putting them at risk. Have I made my point?

There is a modern phenomon called 'cocooning' where the subject hides in their home, makes themselves comfortable, and ignores the nasty stuff around them. These people would probably agree with you.

[blade root]

Mickk,


I'm not sure which leafy, gated Melbourne Community you live in.

Your ignorance doesn't really deserve a response but...

If turning the lights out on the helicopter gives the Police a tactical advantage then isn't it a good thing ? I really don't understand the reasoning of some people.

We fly in cloud and can't see other aircraft, relying on radio calls for separation. What's the difference.

This has been in effect prior to 9/11 (in WA not sure about Vic) so it not a security thing, it is a Police trying to catch crims thing. The crims that break into your house, sell dope to your kids, rape and bash the elderly.

[Checklist Charlie]

Well that's it then, some want to think blackout/NVG op's is good stuff for the Muppets and others don't.:D

That's my 'Tuppence' worth:ok:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Some agree with the tinfoil hat wearing brigade, and some don't - who'da thunk it!:}

Is the reference to "Tuppence" from recent events? Maybe the "black choppers" were looking for the bad guys, but more importantly the hidden Moran millions!:E

But while I'm here.....

few years back I lived in a large country city close to the airport and one night about 1am I heard a fixed wing aircraft operating in the area, so I went for a wander outside and sure enough I could see the aircraft against the background sky, but he showed no lights whatsoever... I checked to see if the runway lights were on and they were off. I got the handheld and gave a bcast on the local MBZ (as it was then) without reply. I activated the runway lights and made a call to centre as I thought the aircraft may have had an electrical failure. They new nothing of any operations in the area (no plan VFR or IFR) (no radar coverage) but followed it up. Seems it was the local Air Wing doing some night detective work. Our friendly FOI called me a day later to 'brief' me on what was going on etc. Fine I said, but if they are going to do that sort of stuff then at least someone in centre should know about it (to handle any calls etc) - he did not think so and said I had comprised their mission. Tough!! Given the same circumstances I would do the same again. No lights if the circumstances so demand, but someone has to know so that do-gooders like me on the night can go back to bed!!! (My bolding)

That's my nomination for the Oscar!:eek: Because the police had the temerity not to inform you of their every move you compromised their mission by being a nosy busy-body. Unbelievable:eek: Did it occur to you that maybe the police were actually doing their jobs, i.e. catching bad guys? And you actually seem proud of your actions! I'll bet you are first person to squeal when you want the police.:hmm: I hope that FOI gave the cops your address.

[Towering Q]

When pulled over and issued with a traffic infringement notice, this type of person will often say...."Why aren't you out there catching real criminals?" or "I pay your wages!".:hmm:

[VH-XXX]

I can understand ever so slightly the need for black-ops.

I was once called in in my fixed wing to do the job of PolAir who were unavailable at the time.

It was daytime and there was a gunman on the run who was evading police right on the edge of suburbia. We did a couple of low level runs to flush him out but didn't find him so we went away well into the distance, repositioned, then came back from another direction attempting to gain the element of surprise. It must have worked, I'm led to believe that he capped himself as we approached. Never heard anything back from the boys in blue other than a wave as we departed. Based on what the offender had done previous to him running, I don't think they were concerned at the outcome.

Question, if the Police requisition your aircraft, do you inherit the callsign of PolAir like any aircraft with the President of the USA becomes AirForce1 ? ;)

(PS: This is a true story).

[Checklist Charlie]

Is the reference to "Tuppence" from recent events? Maybe the "black choppers" were looking for the bad guys, but more importantly the hidden Moran millions!


Yes my reference to 'Tuppence' was based on recent events. I also harbor some hope the Vic Muppets were sufficiently situationally aware and did not even contemplate flying blackout or try to use NVG's over the built up areas in the middle of the day. Well, maybe!

[Captain Sand Dune]

I also harbor some hope the Vic Muppets were sufficiently situationally aware and did not even contemplate flying blackout or try to use NVG's over the built up areas in the middle of the day.
Just lower the dark visor, surely.


OK....I'll go quietly........

[spirax]

Capt Sand Dune

(My bolding)

That's my nomination for the Oscar! Because the police had the temerity not to inform you of their every move you compromised their mission by being a nosy busy-body. Unbelievable Did it occur to you that maybe the police were actually doing their jobs, i.e. catching bad guys? And you actually seem proud of your actions! I'll bet you are first person to squeal when you want the police. I hope that FOI gave the cops your address.

I don't believe the comments are anything to do with police not making notification. The writer clearly acted with the concern of the safety of the aircraft. How is he to know if it is a police a/c... it just may have been some poor pilot with an electrics failure??? He is just trying to say there should be a Circuit Breaker in the system somewhere... To me he did the right thing!
:D:D:D

[Captain Sand Dune]

Oh yeah? Then explain his stated reaction when informed by the FOI that he had compromised a police mission. Tough!! Given the same circumstances I would do the same again.
I appreciate the initial concern that this may have been an aircraft in distress, however it was the above quote that got me going.

[Kangaroo Court]

So those black helicopters at night...it's not just a conspiracy theory?!

[triadic]

Capt Sand Dune... I think you missed the point I was making.

That's my nomination for the Oscar! Because the police had the temerity not to inform you of their every move you compromised their mission by being a nosy busy-body. Unbelievable Did it occur to you that maybe the police were actually doing their jobs, i.e. catching bad guys? And you actually seem proud of your actions! I'll bet you are first person to squeal when you want the police. I hope that FOI gave the cops your address.

How can you tell if it is a police or other security operation against someone that might be operating with a problem such as no electrics????

The only way to nip it in the bud is for someone in the ATS system to be aware of such activities and be able to field any inquiries so that if it is a legit mission it is not compromised. On this occasion, the police were doing their job, but how do you balance that against someone that might be in trouble? Do you just not do anything on the basis that it might be a police mission? I don't think so. Safety must come first.

And you actually seem proud of your actions!

You bet!! :ok::ok::ok:

As a matter of interest this matter was discussed with the local police. The non flyers that drive this stuff sometimes have no idea!!

The only time an a civil aircraft should show no lights is when it is parked!

[desmotronic]

Oi polair stop wanking over yr night vision goggles, turn yr lights on, and the friggin runway lights when you depart.. ! Metro Melbourne is not the place to practice your fantasies.

[tio540]

desmotronic

Yeah polair stop hiding in the night sky, let the ****bags grow their crops, pinch desmo's car, and find his porn.

[sms777]

Have you been watching too many Vin Diesel movies lately? :E

[tio540]

mickk and desmotronic and others

This is written by an airwing crewman, however it is not on an official website. I have attached the last paragraph.

Backup Victoria Police Air Wing Website - Mission Reports - - Victoria Police Air Wing (http://airwing.uplink.com.au/index.cgi?page=6)


I was a crewman on the helicopter in 1987 when hit by Julian Knight with a high powered rifle. That event still returns to my memory regularly and I am sure that this event will remain with me for a long time and even more vivid than Hoddle Street.


Julian Knight killed 7 innocent people.

[Checklist Charlie]

let the ****bags grow their crops, pinch desmo's car, and find his pornWell it's working so far. Isn't it?:D:D

tio, I suspect the situation regarding Knight would have happened irrespective of the lights on/off, stealth mode (in a Daphne, don't make me laugh) or whether they were looking through green dunny roll holders or not.:cool:

[VH-XXX]

Thanks SMS I did catch the latest Fast and Furious recently.

It was a true story. Didn't think much of the ramifications until later.

[tio540]

The answer is simple really, an ambulance has flashing lights to be seen, and turns them off when they don't wish to be seen. It's not rocket science now is it?

[desmotronic]

I apologise for my intemperate vernacular, just don't taser me please sir.

[Towering Q]

"OK, I promise I won't....just hand over your porn."

[desmotronic]

Back to the topic, vic police are conducting NVG operations including take offs and landings at essendon airport with the airport pal lighting disabled without informing ATC, without having a notam issued and without having an operational reason to do so.

How many offences are being committed here?

[tio540]

Desmo, give me a break.

without having an operational reason to do so

Says who?

[slow n low]

mickk...


I dont want to hear about ex blackhawk drivers and night vision goggles, roaming around the skies of melbourne. Not a good record in that area.



Care to elaborate? :hmm:

[Delta Torque]

Perhaps a good read through CAO 82.6 may dispel some of the ignorance, rumours and innuendo in this thread.

Maybe mickk was referring to the 1996 Army accident, involving Blackhawk helicopters operating on NVG.

Given that this particular accident involved multi aircraft, low level, close formation NVG operations, one can hardly see a comparison with Polair or civilian NVG operators operating single ship, at LSALT or below (with concession).

As always, knowledge dispels ignorance.....

Remember that NVG have a major role in night SAR, and it may be you, or a member of your family being located and rescued by those 'muppets'.

Bit of professionalism and respect to your fellow aviators would go down well here gents....

[Cloud Basher]

Bit of professionalism and respect to your fellow aviators would go down well here gents....

Delta Torque,
One thing that you will not find here is what you are requesting above. As is shown oh so many times in this forum (I just had a rant on the forced landing at Bankstown Thread) everyone here is the best pilot in the world, never breaks any rules and if they can, to make themselves feel better, they denigrate someone, anyone they can because they would always do a better job than anyone else. The ignorance of people wrt NVG ops and Police operations in general shine through here, but as these poeple know better than anyone then they are correct.

Rather than ask questions and hope to be educated as to why the coppers operate like this, they start throwing around accusations of not operating iaw CAR's, CAO's and generally calling them cowboys. After a while you get to know the usual suspects and mostly ignore what they are saying.

I do know one of the Polair pilots, and if they are all like him I know they are professional enough not to bother replying here. I am sure if someone has genuine concerns, rather than accusations, then they would address those through a phone call or proper enquiry.

Cheers
CB

[Checklist Charlie]

Bit of professionalism and respect to your fellow aviators would go down well here gents....Actually there is no critisism of the individual aviators at all. It is the management directed use of the helicopter as a tool that is being discussed. Individual pilots can use the Nuremberg defence where as those directing the use of the chopper are the ones with the grand ideas. You all know them, those that have to have the latest shiney, biggest, noisiest, bell and whistles and better than anyone else's. The same ones that could then argue for a promotion and pay rise because of all the extra responsibity they now have.:D

mickk's oblique reference to the '96 accident is unfortunate, it so happens that accident killed a student of mine and the son of a former Army mate and is not directly related to this civilian based thread. The police won't like being refered to as civilian but too bad.

It has got to the point these days that anything the police want, they seem to get.

The ability to manage all their toys and individual police standards and activities is the subject for another thread anywhere but PPRuNe

[tio540]

It has got to the point these days that anything the police want, they seem to get.


A grand sweeping statement like this needs qualification.

I say again SAYS WHO????????????????

[OWAP]

What should the police be flying around in for their Police, SAR and Ambulance and roles?

[micky phelan]

P B – why did you post this link and then state that if YOU were in the wrong place at the wrong time there could be an issue, of bloody course there would be as you would be inside CTA and/or failing to comply with normal and/or specific ATC procedures. This would then be YOUR FAULT and not that of the helo following legitimate ATC procedures, IFR and identified by ATC as they are. You complete nobber – get a life and stop trying to infer that these operations compromise your safety. I might add that when in cloud ( as happens IFR from time to time) light or no lights make no difference. Clear off you uninformed git.

CC – you also are of the uninformed but highly opinionated type who would be far better off reading threads and the posts of others without inflicting your inane drivel ad nauseum. – go away and play with your toys, as you know nothing of this topic, clearly.

Mickk – who gives a toss about your opinions regarding this matter, you do not have the slightest clue about the legitimacy and operational requirements of these (or I suspect any other) flight operations. Again an arrogant ignorant tosser who just can keep their mealy mouth shut on a topic of which they are COMPLETELY IGNORANT. Go back to flight sim as you know nothing about the real world.

Triadic – good on ya mate!, who cares if the plod are trying to operate in a covert nature, get on the blower and call everybody, do you not think that bad guys have heard of scanners. You self righteous old sad jobsworth. I know who and where the incident that you referred to occurred. Your opinions are just that and as far as your comment that the only time that “the only time a civil aircraft should have lights out is when its parked”, get real, this is a common occurrence in some operational environments, under strictly controlled operational circumstances when issues of serious criminal activities are being observed, and when issues of national importance dictate, not just because some self possessed plod thinks it might be a bit of fun. Do you think there are no rules except yours that aply to Police Airwork??? You amaze me again, but then again you always did know everything, what should I expect?

Desmotronic – unadulterated drivel spewing forth from some self professed expert like you is a complete waste of bandwidth. Another uninformed armchair expert that would prefer that they could, speed, drink drive, and grow hootch to their hearts content, but ooooh, the cops must not try to do their job if it doesn’t agree with your paranoic opinions. Know what you are talking about, or stay off the pprune and stay on the couch with your twisties, remote control and pirated porn. These are the POLICE conducting these operations under approved procedures, not naughtly little boys like you and the other nobbers that are screaming foul. How could you possibly know the circumstances under which the ops are conducted and as far as launching from EN at night with lights out and no AD lighting, so what, if they are suitably equipped, operationally required and approved. The reason that you didn’t hear them on your scanner is that they will be obtaining IFR clearances from ML after EN TWR HRS, and, shock!, Horror! DO NOT NEED YOUR APPROVAL. GO AWAY and let the grown-ups look after the real world, you nasty little speck of dirt.

To all those who are relatively uninformed but have a sensible and mature approach to such things, I thank you and appreciate your understanding. It’s just these know-nothing know-alls that get up my nose on this, and many other threads with their self professed expert opinions.

[desmotronic]

Mick you seem to have some anger management issues. You might find this "illuminating".

5. Complacency and Overconfidence
5.1 Compared to other types of flight operations, there may be an increased tendency by a
crewmember to overestimate the capabilities of both the NVG equipment, and what this
enables pilots to do. This can potentially result in complacency and overconfidence in the
equipment. Similar to other specialised flight operations, complacency and overconfidence
may lead to an acceptance of situations that would normally not be permitted. For example,
attention span and vigilance maybe reduced, important elements in a task series overlooked,
and scanning patterns, which are essential for situational awareness, break down. Critical
but routine tasks can often be skipped or overlooked.
5.2 Consequently, both operators and individual crewmembers should remain vigilant to
the onset of any overconfidence and/or complacency during operations. This may be
achieved by regular flight checks and refresher training and during flight operations by crew
monitoring and CRM procedures that allow all crewmembers to query the actions of the
pilot flying. Examples of such procedures include Threat and Error Management (such as
the three strike rule).

No one i am sure would want the coppers to not make best use of available technology in the public interest. However NVG have well documented limitations and cao82.6 is not carte blanche to do as you please.

TIO,
Desmo, give me a break.

I'll try that when i next get busted for 103 in a 100 zone.

[Captain Sand Dune]

However NVG have well documented limitations and cao82.6 is not carte blanche to do as you please.
Yes, like most other bits bolted in/on an aircraft NVGs have limitations. I for one am happy that the POLAIR crews have been appropriately trained and are quite aware of and operate within these limitations. Do you have proof to the contrary?
And who says POLAIR are "doing as they please"? Can you give examples?
I can see why Micky P blew a gasket a couple of posts ago!:rolleyes:

[PlankBlender]

Micky, ok, I'll bite, but just because I'm in a good mood and your post made me laugh :} great first post, by the way, will ensure you're taken seriously here :ok: an anonymous platform is great, isn't it? Finally you can vent your bottled up anger as you like and throw around expletives like a fourteen year old -- at least a couple of times.. you do that to anyone in person surely they'd tell you to stuff it and avoid you from there on in, and rightly so!:ugh: :rolleyes:

But rather than just stating the bleedin obvious, let me give you something to think about before you come back and throw another girly tantrum to our collective amusement :}

Wrong place wrong time could just be outside radar coverage or otherwise in Class G as a VFR aircraft where there is no ATC separation from the dark IFR chopper, so I wouldn't need to be doing the wrong thing at all.

Consider that most of the airspace immediately above populated metropolitan suburban areas in Oz (i.e. where such a chopper would be operating) are class G (except of course the C/D bits around the major aerodromes) and as such I am perfectly legal to fly around there at night even without a transponder, so I might very well not be under anyone's control, on anyone's screen, and perfectly vulnerable :eek:

However I do acknowledge that probability is low as at night over populated area NVFR an aircraft would most likely be (at LSALT or above) higher than the copper chopper. BUT as an individual I only need one occurrence to bring me to grief so probabilities are really besides the point, and consequently anything that moves the odds somewhat against me especially at night I think I rightly feel uneasy about :=

Bring it on, angry man :}:ouch::ugh::rolleyes:

[micky phelan]

PB - good on ya for raising about 2% of the relevant issues related to such operations. do you seriously think that you and you alone are the only one that has given this type of operation any dedicated think time?

Oh that's right, the coppers just launch and turn their lights of without a moments thought of consequences, unlike your eminently qualified and knowledgable self. grow up, and be glad that these people are actually on your side and work day (and night) for the protection of you and the society and community that you and I live in.

I didn't think that this thread was meant to be a "bash the Police Air Wing cos they're a bunch of w@nkers" thread, but that there may have been a real reason for your initial post, however I was sadly wrong, you and the tinfoil hat brigade are off on your merry way seeing ill where none resides.

Launch a "bad apples in the police forces" thread if you like, but try not to get too confused with reality.

have a nice day.




13. Ignorance and Stupidity
13.1 Users of aviation sites such as PPruNe and other should be aware that many of those who are moved to post their opinions regarding topics of interest have no real knowledge of the subject topic or any other real world experience for that matter. Whilst in general such forums are for persons with similar interests to share experiences and provide references to those who are making genuine enquiries they are often hijacked by the ignorant and uninformed as well as the pompous and self righteously indignant who instead of providing information and informed debate use these sites to vent self possessed arrant nonsense. Others are provocateurs that make seemingly stupid, unsupported bald statements in order to achieve a communal response of the mentally deficient and emotionally challenged (gun clutchers, climate change deniers, rule quoters etc).
13.2 Intelligent users (and we only mean average intelligence here) of such sites must exercise judgment when making statements and claims and generally confine themselves to such comment as they are knowledgeable in relevant areas of. It is mot in anyone’s interest to consume time effort and resources merely to get another post in the total. Many of those with high posting tallies are not nearly so authoritative as they profess themselves to be. These hopelessly deluded people seem incapable of accepting reality and feel compelled to shout their own nonsense as frequently as they can in the belief that they have some real contribution to make.
13.2.1 Some of those who post on such sites do actually have an aviation background and real experience in some of the specialist branches of this industry. They are a minority.
13.3 Many of those who emphatically and categorically quote strict reference to arcane and obscure documentation are those who also seem to expect that these rules only apply to all the other avid readers and not, in fact, to themselves, as they seem to know much more than everyone else.

[micky phelan]

Plank Bender -

If you are going toaltz around over major metro areas, at night, below lowest safe, at IFR levels believing that you are OCTA, outside RDR, NVFR and without any responsibility for the potential consequences I rest my previous case.

if you are outside RDR at night NVFR you should be at appropriate level and making brouadcasts as recommended.

You should be showing lights as you are required by law to do.

You should not be operating at an IFR level without any broadcast etc.

if you are making broadcasts and CTR is aware of you , you will be given as TFC to the POLAIR albeit on a different freq.

All metro areas in Aus are RDR any you are REQUIRED (with some minor exeptions) to be SSR equipped and operating correct code. most metro areas are CTA/CTR (showing my age) and if you are operating within CTA you will be seperated by ATC.

POLAIR ACFT want to know about yobs like yourself that seem to think that blasting around the sky at night over major cities without making any broadcasts, talking to RDR, or even submitting details is good sport as they would really like to avoid nut bags like YOU. Oh by the way I assume that there would also be no TCAS in the POLAIRCRAFT either.

If you are playing by the rules, or even if you aren't, the chances of an incident rest primarily with YOU, as the other guys will be complying with a serious list of requirements, and carrying very expensive equipment, and operating within limitations of their exemptions.

Wonder what happened to my last post. seems to have been pulled by the mods and it wasn't even a big deal. still i fthey want to support the likes of the uninformed and ignorant knockers and not those who feel insulted by these children, i suppose it is their perogative, after all, I am just one of those who is sick of being trashed by the know-nothings, good on ya blokes.

[Checklist Charlie]

That's one hell of a dummy spit for a 1st post micky phelan.:D:D


Bet he/she/it joined again today just to make that one post:=

[Fanny Phelan]

Whoa, binned after first post in former life.


I guess that the mods are on the side of the ignorant and uninformed in this instance, anyway, if I want to play in their sand pit I must follow their rules.


To those with whom I got a wee bit vitriolic I aplolgize for some of the insulting language, but stand very firmly by the essence of my argument regarding being informed prior to criticising others as muppets etc, which PB,CC, desmo seemed to be allowed to do but not me, oh well.

To 540 XXX CSD and the many others that took a more sensible approach to this topic (the vast majority I see) i respect your comment and can see that you have some of the common sense and intelligence that those to whom I referred earlier do not.

The plod do not just wait till it gets dark and then launch without lights just for a bit of fun, nor are these ops conducted without an extremely high level of planning and consideration as well as a pile of very expensive equipment. In addition the CASA has to have been convinced that the op is safe to acceptable standards within the limitations of the instrument that is granted, even if clowns like PB wish to wander around over metro areas without their SSR on, without talking to anyone, at any old level they feel like.

Why someone who like Plank Bender, who has sufficint hand eye coordination to read (skim) and then post tripe doesn't take the time to consider that they are not the sole repository of all knowledge is beyond me.

The police air wing(s) are there for our protection and service and are not just a bunch of gung ho swashbucklers out to crash into the general public. All of these types of operation are subject to a vastly higher level of scrutiny and oversight than poor uneducated souls like those referred to in a stronger tone a few posts ago can possibly comprehend.


Bet he/she/it joined again today just to make that one post

CC - did you work that out for yourself??

Have a nice day - FP

[slow n low]

Desmo old chap your little blurb on Complacency and Overconfidence
is spot on, consider for one moment that these crews have this little gem of information and a whole lot more, and may I suggest a bunch of training to go with it :ok: relaaaaaaaax..... And if you got done for 103 in a 100 zone then why not do 100??:confused: (no I am not a copper....)

Plankey...

However I do acknowledge that probability is low as at night over populated area NVFR an aircraft would most likely be (at LSALT or above) higher than the copper chopper. BUT as an individual I only need one occurrence to bring me to grief so probabilities are really besides the point, and consequently anything that moves the odds somewhat against me especially at night I think I rightly feel uneasy about


So why do you feel uneasy? If they are equiped with NVG then they will spot you WELL before you could spot them mate, particularly if you are skylined against a dark background. Have a think about it for a moment, single pilot NVFR vs multi crew with NVG (and one can assume sufficient currency and training) who do you think has the greater SA for potential traffic separation?? :bored: relaaaaax!!!

Desmo, mickk and co, I am making assumptions here that in fact you do have several hundred hours of NVG experience since your posts exhibit a certain authority on the subject matter. If you do then thats great :ok: I could always use some more tips :ooh:

Capt Sand Dune...:ok:

[desmotronic]

so what

Fair enough... :ouch:

Hope you got the good goggles :8

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

micky p, top spray....loved every minute of it.:E

[PlankBlender]

Fanny Phelan, nuff said. Read my post properly and respond intelligently, if you're just here to vent your juvenile anger, suit yourself, you'll find it a thoroughly unsatisfactory experience :ugh::ugh:

In the air we all play by the same rules, but these exceptions somewhat skew the playing field, and a non-transponder equipped (!) NVFR pilot at LSALT in class G is very much at risk because see-and-avoid doesn't work as well when it's one-sided, especially where there is no ATC separation IFR/VFR.

So far none of you venom-spitting f@nnies has been able to argue that point, so I'll start to listen again if you can actually get yourselves to put out something of substance :ugh::ugh:

[Stikybeke]

Apparently, aside from yours truly.. The PM is the only one who appears to have read the exemption correctly.

It relates not to NSW Police but to the NSW Police Integrity Commission which (as I understand from the media and their website..) are in the business of investigating criminal and corrupt behaviour and activities of serving and former members of the NSW Police. (Fortunately this is only a small minority...). Good luck to them I say.

From what I've read...they are not an Operational Aviation Law Enforcement body. They do not pursue stolen vehicles, find drugs, conduct searches for missing persons, attend disasters and all that stuff that aircraft operated by Police agencies do in Australia....they don't use "Polair" callsign because they don't qualify for it.....

Seeing as they are not Aviation Law Enforcement, ADF or EMS I guess that throws their eligibility to use NVIS out the window as well....

I'd doubt if they'v ever had to use the exemption but if they have I'd bet that ATC were totally across whatever it was they were up to. Also I'd be fairly confident that Mick Quinn wouldn't have signed his name to it if there was a likelyhood that the appropriate checks and balances weren't in place to prevent any such ops for going "pearshape..."

Nevertheless though..."stranger things have happened......":hmm:

[HypeX]

[QUOTE=tmpffisch;4987110]I believe the Victoria Police also do the same now. Makes sense because of their night vision equipment, but a few months ago I could clearly hear the helicoper was very close, but could not sight it. Occured OCTA, albeit would have been at less than 1000ft

i have vidioed them doing this. i flashed a strong led torch (not laser as this is illegal and can get you in cuffs) they approached, hovered and i waved at them (flir). they then turned their nav lights on and fuked off... they would have been about 500 feet or less. this was at 2am plus. could not give a fuk about people trying to sleep. this has happened many times here (endeavour hills victoria 3802) they won't intimidate me with their shenanigans, just wake me up all the time... *****...

[Zombywoof]

You bumped an eight year old thread to post this tripe?

[Piltdown Man]

Does he have ADSB? Because if he does the real crooks will always know where he is. It's just the chancers who will get caught short.

PM

[bgbazz]

I have to agree with you Zombywoof...but I rather suspect that he might be in for some more sleepless nights. They almost certainly have his address and identity and a knock on the door in the wee hours could be forthcoming.

Not the brightest star in the sky.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Curious timing as the news this morning has Police arresting a 41y.o man from Brighton last night on charges of interfering with the operation of an aircraft.

Vic police helicopter lasered last night and the guy caught....

[Acrosport II]

They often fly around the Industrial area North of Brisbane at night with their lights off.


You can hear them, but very difficult to see them from the ground.


Apparently looking out for car hooning idiots (or possibly there for another reason).