Argentinian ground based AA during Falklands war?

[hardhatter]

I have a question I hope you could help me with:

I am preparing a small presentation, for the Dutch Airforce, of the Falklands conflict, focussed on the air campaign.

I am now trying to find which types of anti-aircraft defence the Argentinians used during the conflict. So far I have only been able to trace the Rheinmetall 20 mm used at Stanley, but I cannot imagine that they didn't deploy radar-guided AA , surveillance radar and so on.

Could someone please point me in the right direction, preferably something which I can find easily on Internet? I am busy reading Vulcan 607 now, (great book), trying to find some links there as well.

Thank you all in advance!

edit to add: this would include radar systems used if possible. Thanks again!

[NURSE]

Oerlikon GDF 35mm RAF pinched some of those for AD Aux Sqns
Roland
Tigercat
Blowpipe
There was another gun system but memory fails me I think Hispano

Radar
Skyguard
?Fledermaus

There is a nice aerial recce photo showing an Argentine Blowpipe det comming into action to try and engage the Recce aircraft. Have seen it on the net.

[Data-Lynx]

Lt Nick Taylor was flying No2 of a three ship SHAR from HMS HERMES over Goose Green airfield on 4 May 82 and was taken out by radar guided AAA. The lead reported later that it failed to lock on him and shifted onto Nick. I believe it was 20mm AAA but there is an Argentine report with more detail. Nick was the first Fleet Air Arm pilot to be lost in the campaign.

[hardhatter]

@Nurse: are the Fledermaus and skyguard radar systems meant to detect intruders or are those types linked to AA/Roland?

[airborne_artist]

HH - read Oerlikon 35 mm twin cannon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyguard_radar#History)

[TEEEJ]

Along with the other missiles already mentioned the Argentines also deployed the SA-7 GRAIL. It would appear that it was a batch supplied by Peru.

TJ

[Navaleye]

A long time ago but here goes.

Tigercat: Useless unless you were in a desert airfield being attacked by WW1 bi-planes.

The Argentines had an assortmentof 20mm, 30mm and 35mm AA artillery, the latter being the most effective. I believe the Crabs actually used it to defend a RAF station after (Waddington?)

The 20mm was a visually laid weapon and the navy used some of the captured weapons from Goose Green and put them on LSLs after. They were then discarded.

The Roland had it own radar and fire control and was independent of the gun systems. The Roland was evaluated after the war and considered too bulky and cumbersome to be of little value apart from pre-prepared static defence.

Nick Taylor was hit by a 35mm.

[hardhatter]

@navaleye:

thank you for your input, just goes to show, no matter how good it looks on the drawingboard, what it does in the field is what counts.

Just for your information, I am trying to describe the Falklands air war form both sides using Col Warden's theory of 'the enemy as a system'. First time trying this, but it is quite a new way of looking at the conflict from this angle.

[Navaleye]

Fell free to PM. I did a lot of work on this subject in the year after.

[hardhatter]

Navaleye, be careful with what you offer, I just might take you up on that! :ok:

first I'll try to finish my work on it today or tomorrow, try to translate it, and maybe drop a few questions your way if you wouldn't mind. Thanks in advance. :)

[cosmiccomet]

My dear friend, you can try to get the information from Zona Militar website, www.zonamilitar.com.ar (http://www.zonamilitar.com.ar)

There are many post in english about the war. We have many Malvinas/Falklans war veterans who like to write there.

Rey del Castillo is one of them who was operating one of the Argentinian Army radars in Pto Argentino/Stanley.
Thunder was another who was serving in the GADA 601.

Try Proyecto Guerra de Malvinas/Falklands War - Foros Zona Militar (http://zonamilitar.com.ar/foros/forumdisplay.php?f=45)

See you there.
:ok::ok::ok:
Ariel

[hardhatter]

@ariel,

thank you for that heads-up about the site. I will check it later today, only I 'no hablo Espanol'. :} Hopefully enough is in English.

[cosmiccomet]

You can log in ZM and ask the information that you need if the answer is in spanish, i can translate to english.

[NutLoose]

I seem to remember in the distance pass the RAF police were using some of the captured radars to check for low flying and speeding in areas of high complaints........... straight up!

[cosmiccomet]

We also had the british made MANPAD Blowpipe.

The Argentine Army Commandos used it on May 21st in the Gran Malvina island against a Harrier GR3.
Two Harrier GR3s were attacking the argentine positions located in Port Howard.
The Argentine Commandos (Company 601) were ambushing the british aircraft and lunched two missiles, one failed but the other hit the GR3.

The pilot could eject and was taken prisoner by the Commandos.
The pilot's name is Leutenant William Glover.

[tonker]

That lot is more than we could deploy now!:\

[hardhatter]

Here's something which I leave to the experts to the answer:

was the Matras R350 used by the Argentinian Mirage III IR or radarguided?

:confused:

by the way, keep the stories oming.

Just read about the first Harrier of 'Nick' Taylor to be lost during the conflict.

[reydelcastillo]

Good Morning Hard Hatter , if I could be of any use please let me know -

Regards Enrique

[hardhatter]

@Enrique

Good morning over there!

First off, see my previous post: was the Matras as used by the Mirage III IR or radar guided?

I'll keep posting questions as I go along.

thanks

[reydelcastillo]

On that one ( Argentine Aircrafts and Amo ) I will have to bring Thunder -

I was the Operator for the Long Range radar in the islandos that belon to the army , two long range radars were deployed :

The antps 43 Westinghouse , belong to Air Force and primary mision to guide our planes during atacks

The antps 44 Cardion , belong to Army and primary mision to alert on incoming enemy planes

If You could go to the page that Ariel mention , post in English , and they will respond in English - I dont know if Thunder speacks some english to have him come here -

Regards Enrique

[GPMG]

This tool may be of help to those of us who do not speak Spanish.

The website that Cosmic refers to makes for interesting reading regarding the conflict for the Falkland Islands.

Text and Web - Google Translate (http://translate.google.com/translate_t?hl=en#)

[henry crun]

Re Blowpipe: I read recently that there were a total of 99 fired, presumably that would be from both sides, and just one hit which must have been the one cosmiccomet refers to.

This info was in a book by Andy McNab so I guess the numbers he quotes should be treated with some caution.

[reydelcastillo]

99 Blow Pipe shots , sound way too many , on our side I would say three maybe four , with one confirm shot down -
All Blow Pipes were in Comand Troups , trained on Blow Pipe -

Aircraft Shot Down on the Islands were by Roland ( One ) 35 mm Oerlinkon with Skyguaquard Radar and the one mention by you ( Blow Pipe ) - there must be other hits that may have damage aircrafts but no shot down -

Regards Enrique

[reydelcastillo]

Goose Green , 35 mm with skyguard radar was the one involved on that shot down -

Regards Enrique

[reydelcastillo]

No SA 7 on the Islands only Roland and very few Blowpipe , I don't think we had SA 7 at all in the army

Regards Enrique

[TEEEJ]

Hi Enrique,

The Military Training Wing based at RAF Mount Pleasant had samples of captured weapons on display. I saw these during my first tour during 1992. The SA-7, along with other captured weapons, were mounted on the wall.

I didn't see them on a subsequent tour ten years later so possibly they ended up in the Stanley museum?

TJ

[Navaleye]

The Argentines sabotaged the Roland, the RAF refused to fly it home for the navy so we dismantled and sent it back in bits and got it to work. God knows how they got it to the islands but well done.

[reydelcastillo]

Hi Teeej

Are those the Rusian Made Misils ?
I did not know we had them , I knew about the Blowpipe only ans the one hand held , and as far as Base mounted the Roland ( well actually a Trailer ) and a Tracktor truck ) Unless Air Force had one of those Hand held Sa 7

Regards Enrique

[reydelcastillo]

Good afternoon Sir How are You ?


Two trips for the Roland -
On the First Plane the trailer itself , on the other plane the Tractor Truck , both planes flew at the same time - On both Flights the air from the tires had to be taken out so it would fit ( because of its height )

Regards Enrique

[reydelcastillo]

On may 01 the first air atack on the airport Vulcan , as for what I have spoken to several British members on other forums , that atack did not considere the Roland , because they thought it could not be transported to the islands - By knight time that day they already knew it was there -
On the first atack it was on the base of sapper hill -

[reydelcastillo]

On that first atack the Vulcan came in within range of a 35 mm for a few seconds , they did not open fire because they did not recive the authorization in time to do so - Until that first atack even beeing at red alarm you had to wait for authorization to open fire , since that first atack orders change and you wwere authorized to open fire by yourself when in red alarm -

[hardhatter]

Would the Dash 10 mounted on the fabricated wing pylon of the Vulcan not disrupt the acquisition of the target by the 35 mm radar in that case?

now how about that Matras? ;)

[TEEEJ]

Hi Enrique,

Yes, the Russian man portable air defence system. Russian name Strela (Arrow). SA-7 GRAIL is the NATO designation.

Strela 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strela_2)

Argentine air defences found at surrender (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Falklands/argentine-airdefences.html)

I remember reading about the SA-7s in one of the books about the conflict. Sorry, can't remember which one. I remember that it mentioned Air Force personnel operating them.

TJ

[hardhatter]

@TEEJ: spot on! thank you for that link. :D

[reydelcastillo]

Ok info from the other Forum say's :

SA7 came through Libia , deployed on the islands never used - ( With Special Forces from Air Force )

Mirage M3 - were recieved in two groups , the first 12 capable of using the old Matra 530 both IR or Radar , they could carry only one misil in its belly with a range of 20 KM , designe against Bombers not for Dog Fight

The second group of Mirage of wich 7 were recieved are the important ones this were the Mirage 3E already wired for the Matra Magic wich is similar is size as the Sidewinder and suposly with similar capacity as the Sidewinder tipe "J" not the type " L " -
This ones were specific for air to air combat -
On the first day of combate of those 7 Mirage 3E we lost two , one with perona the other one with Garcia Cuerva , and left us with only 5 -
Later on we found out through South Africa that they had ptoblems with the proximity trigger of the misil , it made the misil explode too far away from the enemy plane resulting in no damage -

Info provided by Tanoarg from Zona Militar -
Y if you have more questions , please let us know -
Regards Enrique

[Willoz269]

Having just read Vulcan 607....could anyone tell me why the Roland was not setup to engage the Black Buck raids? Was the presence of the Bucaneer jammer so effective?

In the first Black Buck a 35mm gun radar was detected but nothing else....in the second and subsequent raids, the Roland was always in the minds of the Vulcan pilots...does anybody know from the Argentinian side what happened?

[Desk Warrior]

I understand there were a number (3?) of AN/TPS43 radars on the islands. After the Royals and Paras had finished with them the Crabs took them over and managed to get 1 working model out of them. Designated it Type 99 Radar. Initially it was given to Tactical Communications Wing, serving in Cyprus during GW1 and later transferred to Number 1 Air Control Centre when it was formed, retiring from service in 1999. Rumour was Westinghouse would not help with the repair and maintenance as it had not been fully paid for by the previous owners!

[Dan Winterland]

The aircraft Nick Taylor was flying was the developement aircraft which had been lent to British Aerospace for the Sea Eagle trials and later shipped to the task force to make up numbers. It differed to the others in that the Radar Warning Reciever control panel had been removed and a Sea Eagle control panel installed in it's place. On the run in to Goose Green, the lead aircraft was locked up by the gun radar, broke and deployed chaff. Nick, who didn't know about the radar was locked up and shot down after he flew through the chaff cloud.

One small benefit of this loss was that when the Argentineans examined the wreckage and found the Sea Eagle control panel, they assumed the Task Force Sea Harriers were equipped to carry Sea Eagle and it is considered that this was one factor which made them order their Navy ships back to port.



I found a large fan blade at Goose Green some years later which must have been from Nick's aircraft.

[ExRAFRadar]

At Spade in 84 - 86 we had the Skyguard radar. Great job, trying to track Harriers etc all day long.

Only thing was the bl**dy thing used to sound an alarm and a big ARM Launch Detected light would go on.

Used to think some poor sod was having a Falklands flashback and we were all going to meet our maker.

Great bit of kit.

Rumour control had it the Para's shot one of them up as target practise down South.

[Wader2]

@Nurse: are the Fledermaus and skyguard radar systems meant to detect intruders or are those types linked to AA/Roland?

Surprised no one has picked this up.

The Super Feldermaus radar was used by BAOR in the 60s as the gun laying radar for the L40/70 bofors. it was deployed to Singapore in 1964 as part of the defences build-up during Confrontation. Although the RAF Regt also had the L40/70 I do not believe they had the SF radar.

PS,

I picked this up from an India website: Ballistic Missile Defences (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/BMD.html)

The AA guns are radar directed by . . . 'Super Fledermaus' . . . though ageing, [it] has been extensively upgraded and now represents a very capable tracking radar with significant capability against difficult, low-flying targets such as cruise missiles. The upgraded radar has a range of 90km and is fitted with a new digital fire control computer.

Fire Can and Flap Wheel provide similar funtions and range capability.