Another Attack On A Police Helicopter

[MightyGem]

First Surrey, now the West Midlands aircraft gets attacked:
BBC NEWS | England | West Midlands | Arson attack on police helicopter (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8088823.stm)

It's getting dangerous out there! :eek:

[g-mady]

lets hope the "east enders" dont find the secret base ****** hill :ugh:

MADY

[Phill]

I seem to remember GMP's chopper going U/S with bullet holes after being used as target practice a few years back.

Could be urban rumour but I think the local scroats were getting fed up with it spoiling their night-time fun so they took some pot shots at it from outside the compound.

[tigerfish]

I understand that this was a serious incident.
Tigerfish

[S78]

OFFICERS from West Midlands Police have launched a criminal investigation after the force helicopter was targeted in an arson attack this morning.

The Fire Service were called by Air Traffic Control to the helicopter's landing site at Elmdon Airport in Birmingham at just before 2am this morning.
The front end of the helicopter appears to have been set on fire. The damage to the aircraft is currently being assessed.

An investigation was immediately launched. Forensic scene investigators and detectives have been working since the incident to establish what happened. Officers are working in conjunction with airport security and fire service.

Enquiries are ongoing into the fire, if anyone has any information about the incident they should contact police on 0845 113 5000.

While the investigation is ongoing we would like to reassure the public that we will continue to provide air support when necessary.

The damage to the helicopter is being assessed and we will be speaking to our insurers regarding the cost of repair.

[Nige321]

It's only a bit of blistered paint...:eek:

http://www.modeltek.com/WMPheli.jpg

From the Birmingham Evening Mail...

N

[MightyGem]

Picture of the damage here:
Birmingham Post - News - West Midlands News - Arson attack on West Midlands police helicopter (http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-news/2009/06/08/arson-attack-on-west-midlands-police-helicopter-65233-23817333/)

[Non-PC Plod]

"Costs of repair" ...? I'm no expert, but it looks kind of knackered from that photo. Can they really get that flying again?

[What Limits]

It'll go another trip!!

Looks like a write-off to me, perhaps Central Counties will lease them CCAU when they get their new ship!

[Fortyodd2]

Non PC,
You have to bear in mind that your average Police Officer at ACC level hasn't got the foggiest of either a). What a helicopter is or, b). What exactly it is capable of never mind how much it costs to repair. :ugh:

[Flying Bull]

Hi Non PC-Plod,

sure, buy a new fuselage,
with a little luck - take the old engines
surely the tailboom and the fenestron and it looks like they can use the clam shell doors as well :E

Greetings Flying Bull

[ShyTorque]

If civilian observers had witnessed something like this, they would have to call the police. :E

[MightyGem]

Looks like a write-off to me, perhaps Central Counties will lease them CCAU when they get their new ship!
They could always buy the one that Cheshire doesn't really want.

[PO dust devil]

Looks like a challenge has been thrown forth.

There can be no 1-0 result here. IMHO

How many slaps in the face can plods take. They've more patience than this humble writer.

DD

[[email protected]]

Bad Shytorque, naughty Shytorque:ok:





The senior policeman thinks it might be an arson attack - no sh*t Sherlock.


The airport authorities are confident their security meets the required standards - errrrrr?How do they conclude that when someone has got in and trashed the helo?

[TeeS]

:mad:The airport authorities are confident their security meets the required standards - errrrrr?How do they conclude that when someone has got in and trashed the helo?

It's quite simple Crab, they can prove beyond all doubt that no airline pilot took any contact lens cleaner, anti-perspirant or other dangerous fluids through security on that day! :}

Cheers

TeeS

P.S. Sorry to be flippant guys, I can imagine how you feel.

[Bertie Thruster]

Any direct services in the 135 that aren't disconnected by the Batt switch?

(for example; a cockpit clock.)

[huntnhound]

Much as I would like to join in with a lively debate on some of the issues already being high-lighted in this incident, suffice as to say this is a major crime scene and a major criminal investigation is underway. It is wholly in-appropriate for those in the industry to speculate on any of the issues that drive such a devastating criminal act, and vitally important that the investigating team are allowed to carry out their work without distractions.

It may however be the case that a number of Police units within the UK take a long hard look at there own security arrangements, given the nature of this catastrophic incident.

Hnh

[heli-cal]

Incapable of protecting their own aircraft!

Utterly pathetic!

[SASless]

Just why is it they think it was arson?

Signs of accelerant?

Evidence of suspects seen toting a Flimsy of Petrol and smoking a fine Cuban Cigar?

Someone drop a cigarette lighter with his name on it?

Makes one wonder why your ordinary street thug or second story man would would want to poke the Plod in the eye like this?

DC electrics being what they are....shy of some solid evidence of arson I would be looking at an electrical fire that got away without being observed until it had gotten well advanced first then start on the arson avenue.

Reckon the price of a bit of fencing, barbed wire, and a few motion sensors combined with one of the Big Brother TV cameras the country is covered with would have saved a bundle of money. For that matter, a Plod could have been stationed there all night for years for what this will cost.

[Rigga]

Well... having weighed-up the evidence (on-line) and surveyed the damage (in the Brum Evening Post) I can state that its quite obvious that Al Kaieda wasn't the guy who did this - so Security at the airport is therefore absolutely perfect! No need to change anything at all!

- Ain't you got no insurance?

[Nige321]

SASless

Just why is it they think it was arson?

Signs of accelerant?

Evidence of suspects seen toting a Flimsy of Petrol and smoking a fine Cuban Cigar?

Someone drop a cigarette lighter with his name on it?



Pictures here of the hole cut in the fence...

Express&Star (http://www.expressandstar.com/2009/06/08/police-helicopter-attacked-by-arsonists/)

http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/wd3329758helicopter_arson.jpg


http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/wd3329798helicopter_arson.jpg


Midlands TV news reports witness seeing felons departing on motorbike...:ooh:

N

[SASless]

Probably a short cut to the tea and stickies!

Is that gang grafitti on the sign over the hole in the fence?

[MightyGem]

Any direct services in the 135 that aren't disconnected by the Batt switch? (for example; a cockpit clock.)
Our cockpit clock(135) is clockwork, ie windup. I suppose the pilot could have left the standby horizon switched on. :=

Incapable of protecting their own aircraft! Utterly pathetic!
Any(sensible) suggestions, heli-cal?

Makes one wonder why your ordinary street thug or second story man would would want to poke the Plod in the eye like this?

Because we are that effective. I don't think they were your "ordinary" street thug, somehow.

For that matter, a Plod could have been stationed there all night for years for what this will cost.
One PC on a night shift, £23000 to £33000 a year, depending on how long he's been serving. What's he going to do, sit in the aircraft all night? :(

[Mark Nine]

Doesn't look that bad to me..........what does the MEL say?

[volrider]

I think Hunt n Hound summed it up, pointless debate about security and damage is best left out of it unil all the facts are known.
Sad day for all Air Operations Units accross the UK as this is supposed to be a secure airfield in the 2nd city of the UK with pax figures of about10 million.....I think everyone will be taking aclose look at security levels soon!

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

May be paarmo was right after all. We do need civies so they can chase after the offenders who commit crimes like this....
:ugh:

SASless come on then lets here you bright ideas..... read previous posts
:mad:

[Flaxton Flyer]

"It is understood that a review of security has been launched at the site, which is part of Birmingham International Airport, although all an airport spokesman would say was that they were “confident” it met all necessary security guidelines"

Ah so the security was fine as it was "all within the guidelines". Now, where have we heard that before.....

[malreeves]

I completely agree with Huntnhound! However I take exception to the comment from heli-cal, given that the unit concerned is based at an International Airport one might have assumed a degree of security was implicite. I assume heli-cal has some experience of aviation locations and can testify to the fact that most (Heathrow excepted but even they have had an incursion by demonstartors) are impossible to secure from unauthorised ingress, unless a limitless security budget is available.

In todays atmosphere of cost cutting and budget restrictions it is difficult to justify almost any extra expenditure on Air Support. To suggest that the West Midlands Police were incabable of protecting their own aircraft whilst it was parked at Birmingham International Airport shows a distinct lack of knowledge and understanding of Air Support and that heli-cal's comment was a worthless "cheap-shot".

Lets have some reasoned debate - not more ill-informed speculation.

Mal

[on21]

It's not the first time, similar incident take place all the time. Just recently, high powered car recover from overnight cash point attack by myself, offenders got away and then car jacked innocent member of the public. I was right on getaway car. (Audi S8 can outrun Transit van and as soon as they got a lead up they dumped it.)

Car was taken to secure contractors compound and placed in a warehouse, prior to the car being examined by csi. Next day offenders then followed the contractor, attacked his vehicle and fired the getaway car.

When you’re dealing with well organized and motivated individuals not the normal day to dross thing like this happen. Only this time it just a bit more expensive.

[HeliCraig]

I completely agree with Huntnhound! However I take exception to the comment from heli-cal, given that the unit concerned is based at an International Airport one might have assumed a degree of security was implicite. Mal, to my mind you are only sort of right here. Yes, Heli-Cal's comment wasn't very helpful, but he makes a valid point. As a pilot I would expect a major intl airport like BHX to be secure, and take your point it is almost implicit. But you have to ask yourself which police force the airport resides in? WMP.

Who are ultimately responsible for the prevention of crime and disorder in the area covering BHX? WMP. The fact that it is an airport does not absolve them from their responsibility to prevent crime and disorder, if anything they should be more proactive around airfields, especially big ones.

In many ways this would be much more forgivable if it were a smaller airfield in a smaller police force... Coventry for instance, which is in Warwickshire (the smallest police force in the country outside City of London). But WMP is the 3rd biggest force (only the Met and PSNI are bigger), policing our country's second city and responsible for a major intl airport - in fact on most recent figures BHX was the 2nd biggest airport outside London.

People just expect better, and their "playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling. Of course, nobody expects any police force to be able to prevent or detect all crimes, that's just not reasonable; but if they can't look after their own helicopter it really doesn't bode well for the rest of us does it? At best its embarrassing, at worst its incompetent. I think it is probably somewhere between the two!

In todays atmosphere of cost cutting and budget restrictions it is difficult to justify almost any extra expenditure on Air Support. You're right, ultimately cost cutting and budget restrictions will have played a factor in this. The problem is that I don't think anyone is advocating spending more money on the actual ASU (they do a great job), people are understandably concerned that someone was able to break into a large airport and torch ~US$5m worth of aircraft - in front of the very people we pay a lot of money to in order to protect us. I normally hate the "terrorism card" being played - but if it is this easy, could they have put something on the ATR72 pictured next to G-WMAO? Or one of Ryanair's 738's?

To suggest that the West Midlands Police were incabable of protecting their own aircraft whilst it was parked at Birmingham International Airport shows a distinct lack of knowledge and understanding of Air Support and that heli-cal's comment was a worthless "cheap-shot".Really disagree. They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to. I don't think that is a cheap shot at all. Now to what extent they mistakenly placed too much trust in BHX security is another issue... however, they can't say they weren't warned about the quality of that either (see here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-460409/Airport-security-staff-suspended.html)).

Now, my little rant about WMP over - this is an absolute tragedy for us as pilots; and I'm sure that other ASU's will review their security in light of it. I shall miss seeing G-WMAO over work (I work very near BHX); and I hope that Sid & Co find a new ride soon!

As a question, was it commercially insured or crown indemnity does anyone know?

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCraig,

Tell you what, you protect your ipod as best you can and I will wait for my opportunity to take it from you!

SS

[HeliCraig]

SS: I totally concede, and did in my original post, that it isn't possible to prevent all crimes all the time, but I think most members of the public will be shocked & disappointed that something so valuable was apparently so easily destroyed. I believe people expect better of a large police force, thats all.

It certainly wasn't intended as any criticism of any one employee / officer of WMP as I am sure they (you) all go out to do the very level best they can with the tools they are given - it was more aimed at the system / politics that have resulted in this.

(Oh, and if you're now over the road with nothing to do pop over and I'll get you a bacon sarnie!)

[SilsoeSid]

Helicraig, do you really think it was easily destroyed?

Looking forward to the sarnie, you're on!

[Sulley]

why do some people assume that when a Police A/C is going to be attacked that the perpetrators will publish their itinery ? !!!:rolleyes:
A petrol bomb thrown at the aircraft is pretty much a done deal !!
Security at most airports,isn't all that people seem to think.:eek:There aren't roving armed patrols trip wires and the like.Some aircraft are vulnerable from public access points, so no security breech would even be required!

[LHSboy]

Just asking a simple question, why wasn't the aircraft tucked away in a hangar o'night?

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

I think most members of the public will be shocked & disappointed that something so valuable was apparently so easily destroyed. I believe people expect better of a large police force, thats all.

Slightly off topic but same concept. Try telling that to the friends and family of the people killed in the twin towers. There was some thing with security at the airport, in air, fast jet support to prevent it and they knew it was coming and they still managed to destroy it

So if a 24hr operation air support unit helicopter parked in the grounds of an international airport, with a fence, armed police and a roving patrol. With no idea that it was going to happen. How on earth can you plan for what happend.

I think its a pretty good indication that air support prevents crime and catches criminals if they feel the need to destroy a chopper.

Just asking a simple question, why wasn't the aircraft tucked away in a hangar o'night?

Then I guess there would be a burnt chopper inside a burnt hanger. If they want to do it they will.

I guess for all those people who want to moan that it was not protected then look at sids comment. You protect your car, or house, or mobile phone, wallet, forever. I won't tell you when I gonna steal it. But i bet you I could.....with ease. ( oh and i would'nt use a motorbike if that helps)

[Fortyodd2]

Budgie,
If you are a 24 hour operation whose effectiveness depends on quick reaction times then your aircraft does not go into a hangar. This is especially true at WMids who don't have one.

[oscardog177]

Just asking a simple question, why wasn't the aircraft tucked away in a hangar o'night?



The reason being the aircraft flys 24hrs. Vital minutes would be lost if the crew had to take the aircraft out of the hanger each time:ugh:

[HeliCraig]

Ok Budgie, I'll bite, but only a little!!


Try telling that to the friends and family of the people killed in the twin towers ... <clip> they knew it was coming and they still managed to destroy it


Which makes it entirely irrelevant. There is no suggestion that WMP knew this was coming at all - and I am sure if they did it would be a totally different outcome.


So if a 24hr operation air support unit helicopter parked in the grounds of an international airport, with a fence, armed police and a roving patrol. With no idea that it was going to happen. How on earth can you plan for what happend.



In the same way you plan for any other unexpected incidence. You take worst case and plan around it. However, I have worked in a clothes warehouse with, by the looks of it, a better fence. An alarm would go if it was cut, touched or inteferred with. That was for a warehouse full of jeans... and I saw it at work one night, and Warwickshire police felt a few collars as a result. Surely BHX should have similar?


I guess for all those people who want to moan that it was not protected then look at sids comment. You protect your car, or house, or mobile phone, wallet, forever. I won't tell you when I gonna steal it. But i bet you I could.....with ease. ( oh and i would'nt use a motorbike if that helps)


Absolutely, these are determined people and it may have been impossible to stop them. My point was that the general public expect the police to be the able to protect at least their own assets.... in hind sight this may be an unrealistic expectation.

You will never stop a really determined criminal, not with all the deterrents in the world, it just appears on the face of it to have been a little to easy. I hope, as Sid elludes to, it wasn't. WMP need to salvage the best of this situation and make sure the criminals are brought to justice and tought charges are brought!

[airborne_artist]

In a way the outcome is OK - it's insured (OK, so the insurers take a hit, which puts up premiums), but imagine if the helicopter had been got at by someone who knew what to do to make it unsafe, but perhaps not visible on a walk-round......

That's why it needs to be properly secured.

[huntnhound]

Helicraig,

After a wealth of evidence has bee obtained, sufficient to make an arrest...you are right. Charges should be brought on those responsible. So a charge of Arson....

In the Crown Court the maximum sentence is 10 years in prison or an unlimited fine and a compensation order equivalent to the amount of the damage

Is this case of such a degree that a judge will give the maximum setence?I think not. Will a judge order a scally to pay back money he hasnt got and never will have? Nope.

So the base line with any crime is that the punishments are so weak and pathetic the fear of being caught is such a small risk compared to material gains when these individuals steal from others.

Hnh

[HeliCraig]

And that is totally my point. Yes the loss of a hull on the ground is a crying shame, especially a newish one which one of "us" flys. But as I mentioned in my post.. there is an ATR72 in the background of some of the pics, and a FlyBe E195 not much further back.

This would not have been good!!

Out of interest, and I did ask before, does anyone know if it was commercially insured, or crown?

[huntnhound]

I do know. But its not my business to publish it here

Hnh

[HeliCraig]

HnH... is it that confidential? Would have thought I / the public could find out under FoI in due course...

.. I was only interested to settle a debate at work that's all. The debate started because in the past I have driven a Royal Mail vehicle who at the time self / crown insure.

If its not totally commercially confident, would appreciate a PM. Ta.

[SASless]

The reason being the aircraft flys 24hrs. Vital minutes would be lost if the crew had to take the aircraft out of the hanger each time

What was this "crew" doing at the time of the attack?

Just how far away are they from the aircraft?

My experience working an "instant" response task guarding nukes put great emphasis upon protecting the aircraft as it was considered important to the task.

That said it was still a vulnerable target. Just not to a simple cut the wire and wander over with a firebomb.

We had a ten foot fence with razor wire surrounding the heliport, two surviellance cameras aimed at the aircraft that was monitored locally and at the command center, and also a squad of shaved apes (passengers) with all manner of automatic weapons in the hut adjacent to the pad. Add in the motion sensors and very bright lights surrounding the area and it was not an easy target.

We worried about dedicated and well trained and armed oppos who might decide to take out the aircraft with a Barrett .50 Cal or a few RPG's but not from close up with something like a can of petrol.

We lived three rotor disc's away from the aircraft....24 hours at a time while the Gun Types worked twelve hour shifts. Pilots got our heads down each shift but the Guns stayed awake and manned our office if we took a kip. The aircraft always had "eyes" looking at it.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Sasless,

The aircraft and crew are some distance apart. Being an International Airport the aircraft was on the dispersal and the crew are stuck in a building that won't generate much revenue for the airport.

From memory it was a good 3 minute walk and not in direct line of sight of the office.

As an aside, what is it with Police Air Support that causes some people to feel the need to talk complete b**locks?

FNW

[huntnhound]

Floaternorthwest,

I am grateful for your brutal honesty...and support.

Hnh

[howflytrg]

re the BBC page and the lasor attack incident

"In March, a laser light was shone at the helicopter's cockpit as it flew over Birmingham.
A 17-year-old admitted in court to endangering the aircraft with the laser and he was given a 12-month referral order. "

Firstly the little S:mad:T should have been shot....but as we don't all want to be treated like brazilian electricians..... why was he not 'done' under the Air Navigation Order?

[bolkow]

cost of repairs? I'll hazard a guess at 4.3 million euros?

[huntnhound]

Higher...Higher :\

[volrider]

I think that if the hanger was available it would have made no difference even if the aircraft was inside, as already said they will go to extreme lengths to complete their task, yes the airport had security by private and police with very regular patrols, however the surface area is huge and to man every vunerable point would take huge numbers, I guess if that was done the freedom to the people folk would be rightfully rage we are turning into a police state, so you strike the best balance you can and work with the best intel you have. Sadly these things happen they only have to get lucky once we all to stay safe, have to be lucky all the time...
Re insurance I think you can rest assured it wont be coming out of the public purse unlike buildings and vehicles which the police cover costs of this would have had to be properly insured for the flying it does etc.
So go buy a huge dog burglar alarm and I bet you someone will get in...its a fact of life.
HuntnHound brought up a good point what will scally get when caught, my guess 7 years which he will do 3 or so if your lucky, oh and nothing back to the community who have suffered the loss!

[huntnhound]

Volrider is correct.
The real issue here is security at Birmingham international Airport...or rather the lack of it. The Airport would probably argue that the meet the laid down requirements for an airport of this size. But it is incredible that scally with a pair of £1.50p pliers from B and Q, can breach the perimeter fence with such ease. Why are there no cameras on each fence line? Why no infrared night cameras? WHY IS THERE NO SECOND FENCE? The more i think about it the more it beggars belief.

Hnh

[volrider]

Sadly I guess its down to cost:(

[SilsoeSid]

Not only that HnH, but a total breakdown of society.

When people are prepared to put their life at risk to fire bomb a Police Helicopter, (they must have known what their actions would look like if they were seen by a firearms police officer), others who throw bricks at Air Ambulances, assault Ambulance crews and Fire fighters, the total anarchy going on out there, also beggars belief.


On a positive note, it just goes to show what a good job the helicopter does!

[MightyGem]

So, what you going to do for the next year or so, Sid? Or is your old one still down at PAS? On second thoughts, the first question is probably still valid. :E

[heli-cal]

The real issue here is security at Birmingham international Airport...or rather the lack of it.

Incapable of protecting their own aircraft!

Utterly pathetic!

Which part of the point that I made, in the simplest of terms, remain unclear?

Given the assumption that the arsonist was a 'scally', and not a professional criminal or a person with terrorist intent, why did the security assessment for this asset, at this location, not address the obvious lack of actual security?

Gosh, did I offend delicate sensibilities by stating what is the actual fact of the matter?

Perhaps the advice contained within the crime prevention leaflets advising responsible care of valuable property should have been followed more attentively!

[jayteeto]

When you operate at a major international airport, you pay premium dough to use the 'facilities'. One of those facilities is security, this offsets the hassle of getting in and out at busy times of the day. The unit would not be allowed to have extra ad-hoc policemen wandering around the helipad. They would have expected a secure environment. Do not muddle the fact that the aircraft was a police one, they are a customer just like BA/BMI/Easy/Ryanair. BA crews don't guard their own aircraft, they use the airport people!!! Our security is provided by the airfield we operate on and it is certainly not our job to patrol the area, THEY get paid to do that. We have our own 'extra' gizmos to cover the immediate area of the unit, but other than sitting in the aircraft for 12 hours straight, we, like others are vunerable. One unit near us has a purpose built electrified fortress that is excellent for the job, not perfect, but nearly so. Maybe that, plus a dedicated security man 24/7 will solve the problem at other units. So Mr Council Tax payer, this needs to be funded from somewhere, cough up £??? on next years bill. That will go down well........

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCal
Perhaps the advice contained within the crime prevention leaflets advising responsible care of valuable property should have been followed more attentively!

Nice statement.

So when I come round your house in the middle of the night, kick down the front door, run up to your bedroom, where I hold a knife to your wife's throat and say "give me your car keys", what part of your personal responsibility for your personal possessions should you have followed more attentively?

[SilsoeSid]

MG
So, what you going to do for the next year or so, Sid?

Same as always. Playing my part in reducing crime and disorder and making our communities feel safer.

[SASless]

the airport had security by private and police with very regular patrols,



Did we become predictable did we?


Anyway one tries to explain it away....the end result is the same....Plod walked on their Willy on this one!

Not the Airport, not the very regular patrols, not the Tea Girl.....but the Plod Air Unit and their Plod management responsible for the Operation.

I know this is the very first time in history a Police Aircraft has ever been attacked and all but really folks!

As a famous poster here once said...."The longer you try to prove a problem does not exist....the bigger the problem really is!" (Or words to that effect by Nick Lappos)

[SilsoeSid]

I for one am dying to hear someone who is big enough to stick their head over the top, and say what else should/could have been done to prevent this.

If that is too difficult, please explain the differences if it was the visiting Saudi Royal family Airbus that was fire bombed!

[SASless]

Like the Saudi King's aircraft is left unattended....try another one please.

[Cron]

Well, if I was young enough to make doing CPL(H) worthwhile, or I was a newly minted CPL(H) or a redundant CPL(H) and I lived commutable to B'ham then my letter would be in the post now..

Dear Sir, on a Friday and Saturday nights ..
I can sweep the ramp,
stand guard,
make the tea,
stand guard,
clean the a/c,
stand guard,
collect and prepare meals,
stand guard,
clean offices etc

In exchange for:
no pay,
the occasional bit of advice from the CP,
permission to put involvement with Police Air Unit on my CV,
being based on an International Airport,
being surrounded by aviation professionals,
being plugged into a huge aviation network.

But I guess 'elf and safety or regulations or some such would prevent such a mutually beneficial arrangement.

Regards

Cron.

[SilsoeSid]

Like the Saudi King's aircraft is left unattended....try another one please.

It won't be any more! ;)

[aeromys]

...I know this is the very first time in history a Police Aircraft has ever been attacked and all but really folks!...

There's another problem, all the National publicity this and the recent previous attacks have had is just going to spur on every little yob who wants to make a name for himself. Most of them didn't realise just how vulnerable the Police heli's were, and among the Police Air Ops community there must be serious concerns now about just how big a fortress they will have to build around their assets and yet still be able to provide a rapid response :uhoh:

[John Eacott]

I was surprised at the lack of security at UK airfields, compared to the overkill that we have in Australia. Nearly all Australian city airports now have razor wire boundary fences, double gate access for vehicles, and grants from the Federal Government to pay for the mandated upgrades required. That includes GA fields, not just RPT.

Most of us here view it all as both OTT and another cost to aviation that has little relevance in our part of the world. All in the name of anti terrorism security, but the cost and inconvenience of ASIC (security cards required for ALL pilots), getting to and from aircraft, etc, is a royal PITA. Plus a legal requirement to secure and immobilise any aircraft left outside a secure hangar, anywhere, any time of the day :rolleyes:

But it makes leaving an aircraft on the ramp overnight in Australia just a little bit more secure than appears to be the case in the UK :hmm:

[ShyTorque]

It's by no means the first attack on a Police aircraft in UK.

Some criminal gangs, mindful of a "job" coming up, might decide they don't want airborne observation and pursuit in the equation.

Liverpool and North Midlands ASU have both had attacks in the past; the latter was unsuccessful because of precautions already in place.

[heli-cal]

So when I come round your house in the middle of the night, kick down the front door, run up to your bedroom, where I hold a knife to your wife's throat and say "give me your car keys", what part of your personal responsibility for your personal possessions should you have followed more attentively?

In the unlikely event that you, in your capacity as an armed intruder actually manage to kick down the front door and entered the premises with the intentions as described, you would immediately be met with lawful, defensive force.

You wouldn't make it further than the wreckage of the front door!

[jayteeto]

:D Well done you then. The next part of the escalation is that they come back a few days later with a gun because you 'disrespected' them. You become another statistic. It goes slightly off thread, but this is what you are up against:

icLiverpool - Gang revenge theory after Croxteth Lobster pub shooting (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews//tm_headline=gang-revenge-theory-after-croxteth-lobster-pub-shooting%26method=full%26objectid=23824366%26siteid=50061-name_page.html)

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCraig,

They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to.

'They' are more than capable of protecting the aircraft, now that IS a fact. However, I'm sure you were happier that those resources were out patrolling the Bullring helping 'Mrs Miggins' find the train station!


Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

The standards of immediate security now need to be re-defined.

The helicopter should be in a secure hangar, on a motorised trolley, wheeled in and out before and after every job.

Done properly, this should add no more than 30 seconds to the "Bat Phone" response.

"Hanging Out" in other peoples hangars, that are not suitable for immediate launch will not work.

WYPA have the ideal formula, (and their hangar blends in with the Countryside too.)

I still have to laugh at the word "Countryside" after Stephen Frys definition as follows:

COUNTRYSIDE - THE MURDER OF PIERS MORGAN.

Cracks me up every time (Sorry Piers).

[volrider]

SS sounds like helicraig has a dose of the 9 o'clock shudders...."you should have done that and this"
Amazing with hindisght maybe we could vote for him at the next election all our problems with society would be solved!!
Sadly the bookies are full of such experts moving mouths but empty pockets:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCal,

How long do you think it will take me to get up those stairs?
Not as long as you'd take unlocking your secure cabinet!!

[HeliCraig]

I for one am dying to hear someone who is big enough to stick their head over the top, and say what else should/could have been done to prevent this.'They' are more than capable of protecting the aircraft, now that IS a fact. However, I'm sure you were happier that those resources were out patrolling the Bullring helping 'Mrs Miggins' find the train station!

Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force! To be clear, by "they" I mean the police force as a whole and certainly not any individuals, as I have stated previously.

I have also said previously that I have worked in a warehouse which provided an instant alert if the fence was so much as touched. Looking at the size of the hole cut in the fence at BHX, I think its a fair bet that this would have provided either airport security or WMP sufficient time to go and investigate the fence panel reporting a tamper, or at least get them in the area and perhaps limit the damage by reducing time taken to get the AFRS on scene. I would add that this warehouse belonged to a large American company, and the contents... jeans. So I think it is a reasonable expectation that the 6th biggest airport in the UK had something more advanced than a simple wire mesh fence.

And in even simpler terms, I refer to ShyTorques post:
Liverpool and North Midlands ASU have both had attacks in the past; the latter was unsuccessful because of precautions already in place. So perhaps WMP should should speak to NMASU and see what can be done?

Or, perhaps jayteeto's post:
One unit near us has a purpose built electrified fortress that is excellent for the job, not perfect, but nearly so. Maybe that, plus a dedicated security man 24/7 will solve the problem at other units. So Mr Council Tax payer, this needs to be funded from somewhere, cough up £??? on next years bill. That will go down well........However, he validly raises the point about cost. An "electrified fortress" is a one off cost, certainly less than the $5m ish it will cost for a new helicopter; a 24/7 security guard, while still being cheaper than a new heli has much longer term connotations.

This strikes at the heart of my point, it isn't the individuals concerned, its the fact that WMP have assessed the risk to be too low and I think relied too heavily on BHX for security.

So Sid, there are a few suggestions. I am trying to non emotive here, but you've made several emotive statements to further your point (that you can't stop a determined criminal), for instance about holding a knife to someones neck etc... I fully understand what you're trying to say - but you must surely admit that WMP could have done more to protect what I expect is their most expensive single asset?

[SilsoeSid]

I'm beginning to wonder if this is related to the UFO encounter roughly this time last year?
Close Encounter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1088307/Helicopter-dramatic-near-miss-sinister-UFO-1-500ft-Birmingham.html)
Should we expect an alien invasion as the ac was clearly taken out to minimise the chance of detection?

[HeliCraig]

SS sounds like helicraig has a dose of the 9 o'clock shudders...."you should have done that and this"
Amazing with hindisght maybe we could vote for him at the next election all our problems with society would be solved!!
Sadly the bookies are full of such experts moving mouths but empty pockets:ugh:

Vol, as far as possible I have resisted the temptation to resort to personal comments. I don't even know you, so perhaps you could extend the same courtesy?

Now, to address your point... Yes, obviously I am looking at the incident with hindsight. However not from a "you should have done XYZ" stand point; but from one of surprise that at least one off X, Y or Z wasn't already in place.

I think most people would be surprised how relatively easy it is to gain access to an airfield in the UK, but I think that people expect better of the big airports; and as I have said in my previous post - its not at a massive cost.. especially against the cost of replacing the aircraft.

The telling indictment will be what, if anything, the insurance have to say and what, if any, improvements they require. Of course, joe public will never know this.

I should point out though that I agree with SS that it is impossible to stop a determined individual. All you can do is make it difficult for them and minimise the risk of them being able to carry out their aims (be that buring your helicopter, or burgling your house). On the face of it, in this case, it looks like there was more that could have been done very simply to frustrate that individual and / or minimise the damage; and other ASU's have done this already!

Oh, and never even set foot in a bookies! :cool:

[SilsoeSid]

You can't stop a determined criminal

1. Razor wired, electrified and alarmed fence around the airfield.
2. Defences on the airfields property
3. 24/7 security guard

Ever heard of Northern Ireland!!!!

[chevvron]

If extra security is required, I'll bet there are a few thousand ex Ghurka's around who would be ideally suited and might be looking for a job to top up their meagre pensions 'cos Brown will do everything he can to short change them after being humiliated by 'Patsy'.

[SilsoeSid]

Hopefully my last on this.

Lets just be thankful no-one was hurt.
We can have all the defences we want, all the protection, all the dedicated armed guards, hardened sangars, all the financial backing to protect, but all that was in place in Crossmaglen in 1994.

A Lynx was still taken out, by a mortar, as it came in to land. Fortunately no-one was seriously injured.

Perhaps it is a good thing that they were able to get onto the airfield and do it this way. Better be looking for arsonist than a murderer. With all the defences in the world in place, it would be easier for them to take it out while in the air than on the ground...unoccupied!

TTFN

[heli-cal]

'They' are more than capable of protecting the aircraft, now that IS a fact.......

'They' are evidently incapable of protecting the aircraft! Your assertion otherwise is graphically disproved by the burnt out wreck! It doesn't get more factual than that!

http://www.modeltek.com/WMPheli.jpg ...... do you really think it was easily destroyed?

The alleged arsonist/s neatly cut through a wire fence, destroyed the aircraft, then departed. Unchecked, unhindered and unnoticed. The obvious ease and simplicity of how and where the aircraft was destroyed is what makes this attack so appalling and revealing!

http://www.expressandstar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/wd3329798helicopter_arson.jpg

The asset, a flaming beacon to the incompetence of police and airport authorities and the hardly vigilant ASU!

Arrogance is no substitute for professionalism.

[500e]

No body's fault as usual then.
Sid I think NI. is a red herring stop digging.

[SilsoeSid]

Cal, 3 more points on the licence by any chance?

[heli-cal]

So when I come round your house in the middle of the night, kick down the front door, run up to your bedroom, where I hold a knife to your wife's throat and say "give me your car keys", what part of your personal responsibility for your personal possessions should you have followed more attentively?

HeliCal,

How long do you think it will take me to get up those stairs?
Not as long as you'd take unlocking your secure cabinet!!

Best be that you stay with your computer games and immature role playing scenarios, as the actual reality of defense against armed intruders/attackers is about as far removed from your depiction that one could get!

The topic is the attack which destroyed the aircraft, not your idiotic fantasies!

[volrider]

HeliCraig
people expect better of the big airports; and as I have said in my previous post - its not at a massive cost.. especially against the cost of replacing the aircraft.
I agree with you, sadly BHX stated in the press they have met the minimum required standards for security... says it all doesnt it:ugh:

[volrider]

Heli-cal I am leaning to think that you have limited knowledge of airport/police security bar what you read in Viz or the Sun, enlighten me if I am wrong as it is always good to be informed by an expert:E

[SilsoeSid]

Plane protesters lock down jet with 'human wheel clamp' at City airport | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23705741-details/Plane+protesters+lock+down+jet+with+'human+wheel+clamp'+at+C ity+airport/article.do)

Five protesters in pinstriped suits and bowler hats chained themselves to a private jet at London City Airport this morning.

The activists, members of the anti-aviation expansion network Plane Stupid, used bolt cutters to saw through the perimeter fence by the runway at 2.30am.

They were found by security guards chained together in a circle around one of the planes.

One was Tamsin Omond, the 24-year-old grand-daughter of Sir Thomas Lees, a fourth generation Dorset baronet.

The Cambridge graduate has been involved in some of the campaign's high profile attacks including scaling the Palace of Westminster in protest over a third runway at Heathrow

Spokeswoman Nancy Birch said the "human wheel clamp" was designed to highlight the "selfishness" of private jet use.

"Our intention was to stage a corporate takeover of the private jet centre with all our protesters in business suits," she said.

"Small jets emit between five and 10 times more carbon per passenger than commercial flights. It's time they were grounded for good."

She said the group had found a CCTV blind spot in the perimeter fence, about 100 yards from the security hut.

"This is a central, busy airport and a major terrorist target but getting into it was child's play," she said.

At police arrived to cut the steel tubes, known as arm locks, off the protesters but Miss Birch said the group had fortified the chains to make it harder.

A spokeswoman for City Airport said there could be a "slight delay" to the schedule for the private jets.

But she added: "This has not disrupted the main airport. The safety of our passengers and staff remain a priority but we do not expect any flights to be significantly affected.

"This is now a police matter and we expect there to be arrests for criminal damage and breaking and entering."

Plane Stupid said it had a legal expert on hand to deal with any arrests.

[huntnhound]

My original post on this thread was...

"Much as I would like to join in with a lively debate on some of the issues already being high-lighted in this incident, suffice as to say this is a major crime scene and a major criminal investigation is underway. It is wholly in-appropriate for those in the industry to speculate on any of the issues that drive such a devastating criminal act, and vitally important that the investigating team are allowed to carry out their work without distractions.

It may however be the case that a number of Police units within the UK take a long hard look at there own security arrangements, given the nature of this catastrophic incident.

Hnh"

And it was said because of the likes of Heli-Cal who contribute nothing but bile to this conversation.

Hnh

[helonorth]

Do you really think this forum creates a distraction to investigators? I don't.

[LHSboy]

oscardog177,

The reason being the aircraft flys 24hrs. Vital minutes would be lost if the crew had to take the aircraft out of the hanger each time:ugh:

For the couple of minutes it takes to get the aircraft out of the hangar, I know what I'd rather do.:ok:

[huntnhound]

There is no hangar...never was.:uhoh:

Hnh

[timex]

I take it that the Police cab (like quite a few others) also covers the Nightime casevac role as well? Wonder if the scrotes even cared about that...:ugh::ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

...or even consider that during this time of year, not only at night, but also in the early morning hours and late evenings, the Police Helicopter is all there is.

Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!

Need we mention the missing children, elderly and ill, or indeed any other circumstance where the skills of the crew and versatility of a helicopter is able to save life!

[SilsoeSid]

I think I have tired of this thread.

3 pages of finger wagging and hindsight, but no real mention about the person or persons that did the deed. Are they some kind of hero to those whose 'handle' begins with 'Heli'? Neither of whom previously have come up anywhere and said, "Mmmm perhaps security at BHX should be improved", despite one working very close to where the entry point is and watching aircraft come and go for a very long time!
:suspect:

That is all.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Perhaps the sentry alerting system used by Sussex i believe, would have helped prevent so much damage. Also I wonder if the crimms involved are planning a "Big Job" and thought the helicopter should be disabled?
How long before a replacement can be ordered and delivered? I expect a stand in will be found in the mean time so no loss of capability.

[Kazamb]

If im not mistaken a helicopter is already being used as a temp replacements, but i dont know which force it has been borrowed/leased from.

[PANews]

The point here is that there are no spare aircraft.

Althugh 'discarded' WMPs last aircraft quickly went off to do new work in Hertfordshire and same too with East Midland's 135T1. The latter is a 'time expired' UK police design even when G-SUFF and its ilk become available on replacement this year.

Yes you can back pedal onto a 355 but you will need to retrain most of your pilots. They long sice gave up keeping 355s current on their licence. And who really wants to retrain onto a type offering 20 minute duration again?

If only for Huntnhound, disregard the specifics of this case and Surrey if you will.

Yes you can rely on mutual support from your neighbours but the whole concept of that is that 'you' will be there for them when the time comes for them to be on maintenance. When an airframe is off line for a long time that system goes way off line. Lose 1,000 hours pa and try and divide it among the surrounding operations and it just will not work. Most operations cannot just leap from 1,000 hours pa to 1,350 just like that as a long term option even if the needy are paying the bill. And that disregards that transit times to the 'off-site' location will be up. Many calls will simply not be worth attending.

Long term [and not too long one might hope] there is a need for ACPO and the Home Office to seek to allocate spare aircraft for 'down time'. It is debatable whether one 900 and one 135 will be enough. Industry has no spare aircraft like they used to produce when there were relatively cheap 'simply equipped' police aircraft sitting at Macs or with PAS.

What is needed is debate but as we all know debate takes forever... regional police air resources have been on the table since 1963 - every time the guard changes so does the plan. There is a new plan but when will that see the light of day 11 months short of a General Election?

Meanwhile a temporary solution needs to be found that does not require a new police role equipped EC135P2 [unavailable] or an AS355F2 [almost pointless].

Perhaps in this time of commercial downturn it is back to basics with a 'leather seat' EC135?2 simply equipped with a turret and searchlight. Potentially the 'on the shelf' spare fleet could be just that, simply equipped SPIFR airframes that operations could use during all technical downtimes.

And before the broadsides start.... what alternatives are there in the market today?

[500e]

Here is a link to help There are 3 variations of the product, the Guard ,Scout and Eurowall 50.
I also hope no one here thinks the attackers are to be admired, it would appear that as the machine was within a security aria & deemed to be safe.
As a private Co we have hired early versions of the product to secure expensive product that had to be left in the open.

SentryGuard by Sentry Electronics - portable security detector (http://www.sentry-electronics.co.uk/sentryguard.php)

SentryScout by Sentry Electronics

http://www.sentry-electronics.co.uk/images/camo-scout-2.jpg
The Scout is an all weather motion detector for the protection of personnel and equipment. It uses highly developed Passive Infra Red detectors fitted inside a patented environmental housing to give outstanding performance and reliability. Camouflaged for additional concealment the Scout is ideal for the detection of intruders, escapees, insurgents, special forces etc. making it a valuable aid for the protection of stores, equipment and personnel
Rugged and versatile, the unit can be quickly folded up too make transportation easy. As Manufacturers of the Scout portable Intruder Detector we offer the most advanced device of its kind in today's market place. The design is based on a MOD requirement for a stable, reliable portable detector that can be carried folded up in the boot/trunk compartment of a medium sized saloon car; and provide a 60m curtain detection area. The units are completely self-contained and can be deployed within minutes.

http://www.sentry-electronics.co.uk/images/Sentry-Scout-Desert.jpgThe Scout provides 24/7 motion detection of unwanted intruders via a personal radio link. All types of radio can be use from simplex, duplex, trunked, and digital military bands on all frequencies throughout the licensed and military bandwidth.

All types of finish can be applied to camouflage the unit from green and black through to desert sand for use in any theatre of operation throughout the Globe. Its high specification electronics and PIR system, together with our patented housing technology, combine to alert the monitoring agency to the presence of unauthorized movement via its radio link. With a detection range in excess of 60 metres it is a versatile and rugged aid to the security force requirements at an operational base, both at home and overseas. Once deployed, the Scout can release valuable security manpower for other important duties.

With its variable battery technology the Scout can be deployed in any climatic condition from the frozen wastelands to the deserts and all variations in between.

How the Scout Works


The Scout's high precision processor and highly developed PIR system combine to alert personnel of unauthorized movement. The Infrared beam is projected in such a manner that it eliminates "creep" zones around its base and produces a detection corridor to a distance of 60m. Any movement within the covered detection corridor results in a message being transmitted to personnel. The warning message can be recorded directly into the Scout by the operator initially deploying the unit.

Under the Scout’s standard covert mode of operation, a person or vehicle passing through its infrared detection area will cause the unit to transmit a pre-installed message to the monitoring personnel via its radio link (GSM also available). As an additional option, the Scout can produce an audible alert or warning message from an optional built in loud speaker.
http://www.sentry-electronics.co.uk/images/SentryScout-Infrared-detection-zone.jpg

[PANews]

Alarms are useful if you have people to react and in a position to react.

Can the 'defenders' intercept a fast moving object in time to halt the attack. Is the attack likely to take place at a time when a patrolling security vehicle is near enough to react and intercept?

Might a [police or civilian] police air observer be able or equipped to halt a an armed intruder let alone a vehicle of any kind travelling at 30-50mph when alerted? Ask Surrey.

As was proven, sensors might be useful as part of a collective of physical obstructions but in the end you still need the obstructed path/wall etc and some sort of ultimate threat. The latter of course is not going to happen in the UK.

[SASless]

"Much as I would like to join in with a lively debate on some of the issues already being high-lighted in this incident, suffice as to say this is a major crime scene and a major criminal investigation is underway. It is wholly in-appropriate for those in the industry to speculate on any of the issues that drive such a devastating criminal act, and vitally important that the investigating team are allowed to carry out their work without distractions.


I beg to differ.....this is a single case of Arson without loss of life or injury.

It is not a "major" investigation.

It is one of any number of on-going criminal investigations being done by the Police.

It is a huge embarrassment to the Police that is for sure!

Nothing said here, in the papers, on the news, or on the radio, nay not even in all the pubs in the country will "distract" the investigators, delay the investigation, or in any way harm the progress of the Dicks working the case.

If they are reading pprune they are being remiss in their official duties to begin with....as they are seeking "facts" and not mere suppostion and bile.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Reading through this thread all that comes to mind is the classic "Plod" tactic of refusing to accept any responsibility for the incident.

If the freaking helicopter had been locked away, the little scrotes would have been unable to get at it.

Far too easy to sit 150m away drinking coffee and reading "NutS" mag than to actually guard the helicopter.

The facts look pretty obvious to me:

Plod drinking coffee/watching vids while scrote cuts through fence, sets fire to helicopter and makes good his escape!!!!

I would want that kept quite too!!!

[Fortyodd2]

If the "Freaking" helicopter had been locked away - there was nowhere to lock it away, there is no hangar.
If the "Freaking" helicopter had been locked away it would not be in a position to respond quickly enough when called upon.
As for your "facts", FYI, the crew had landed less than 10 minutes prior to the attack and were completing their tech/task logs. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story though.

[ShyTorque]

Expecting a police helicopter to be put in a hangar after every job is not a viable proposition and shows a complete lack of understanding. :rolleyes:

[FloaterNorthWest]

500e,

Sentry. Nice idea, it didn't stop the latest Surrey attack just meant the bobbies could chase them off and limit the damage. It would have been different if they had brought petrol bombs instead of axes.

This topic is about risk management and at the end of the day in the real world of public spending accountability MONEY.

Yes all ASUs could be protected but at what cost? From WMP and Surrey's accountants point of view the aircraft was insured (something that is legally required so can't be avoided) so why spend money un-neccessarily on guards and fences. They don't care about the loss or the inconvenience or even the loss of public confidence. It's all about making the incoming match the outgoing.

Some people need to wake up to the real world we live in.

Their loved ones could be killed in a car crash due to faulty manufacture that could have been prevented but the assessed risk of lawsuits against product recall out weighed the cost. They don't care about your loss.

Sadly this is the world we live in. Best get used to it because you aren't going to change it.

FNW

[zorab64]

Double Snot - I don't want to be rude, but you'd be dangerous if you actually had a clue. FNW, ST & 4*2 at least know how these things work practically.

As has been said it's about risk management and a balance of reasonable security (which they justly believed they had) and getting aircorne to meet the task as fast as possible. Even if they had access to a hangar, (which you seem to have ignored) it adds about 2 mins to getting airborne - unless you have some fancy "Thunderbirds" type trolley to wheel you out as you start up - at what expense?
It's the taxpayer who pays in the end and no-one I know in this industry would want to be drinking coffee in preference to catching a pair of little snots who wished to trash their machine - the only sad thing is that, if they had caught them, they wouldn't have been allowed to do to them what they wanted - but it's likely to have involved a duplicated part of the male anatomy and some blunt instuments! :eek:

Thanks for the appropriate handle - it made writing this more fun!

[the beater]

Reading through his previous posts, it's apparent that he used to be a Police Pilot (as355 if I recall correctly). So, presumably, he does have a clue. I must admit that I assumed that the attack had occured during a period when the helicopter had been unattended for a while.
Can the police give themselves a crime reference number to use in the insurance claim?
'cos that's sure as hell all they'd do if it happened to Joe Public.:ok:

[volrider]

Sasless or maybe senseless oh and bad bogie, you guys do not bring anything constructive to the table, you seem to revel in being critical with hindsight, the world is full of yesterdays news experts with little to offer new...I think that the swines that did the attack have, as its been pointed out cost the possiblility of lost lives... but of course Sasy and bogie arnt really bothered about that when good old bobby bashing is so much fun....

[500e]

FNW Let me see if I have this correct,
1/ it is cheaper to loose X mill£ helicopter than secure it.
2/ The cost of the Sentry or some other device is more expensive than the insurance excess.
The excess will be paid by taxpayer & or every private helio owner in increased premiums, + the insurers must be getting wary of insuring these machines as this is not the first that has been attacked.
3/ There is an added cost in public safety, not to mention hire charges if one is available? or time to incident if you use cover from another force, + the loss of use to neighbouring force.
4/ So there is no manpower to respond to an emergency call on a large commercial airfield.
The call from the Devices we used was over our closed radio system, It could have been over Police Tetra, airfield security, or straight to dispatcher, or to all if the unit was a bespoke one.
5/ The helio appears to be written off or close to how many mill £?how long for replacement?.
6/ Thunderbird trolley is in use with some forces I believe.
7/How long before the next attack ? now it appears so easy?.

[SASless]

Volrider,

Sorry to hurt your feelings but in another life I have been both a local police officer and a federal special agent and thus have a bit of background in law enforcement particularly investigations. Add in my experience guarding nuclear weapons as a helicopter pilot and that adds to my basis to make the comments I do.

The fact you do not agree with them bears on you.....not me.

[volrider]

Sasless
You have creditable qualifications which surprises me as to the comments you make, maybe in the US your security etc is not cost driven like it is in the UK

[FloaterNorthWest]

1/ it is cheaper to loose X mill£ helicopter than secure it. That's not what I said. I said you can protect it but at what cost. In WMPs case they were on an International airport meeting Internationally accepted security standards. If you want to put them in the middle of nowhere with the same protection as the nuclear weapons we used to protect in Germany then yes you can guarantee its security but the cost would have you and everyone else complaining

2/ The cost of the Sentry or some other device is more expensive than the insurance excess. Again didn't say that. Surrey had the system (or similar) and got attacked. These systems are good but if they keep going off then they soon get ignored. And they only tell you there is an intruder, or rabbit, and you then have to do something about it. Note: Not the case at Surrey

The excess will be paid by taxpayer & or every private helio owner in increased premiums, + the insurers must be getting wary of insuring these machines as this is not the first that has been attacked. Is there an excess? None on our 4 helicopters. If no Police helicopter was attacked then the premium will say the same. At the time it was unthinkable that an aircraft be attacked (no power of hindsight). What would be the premium increase be if attacked (unthinkable at the time) against cost of protecting? It's all about RISK. Are you worried about other peoples excess if you lose something or crash your car and it's your fault? If it is your fault do you accept the loss and don't claim? Again modern society doesn't give a damn about anyone else.

3/ There is an added cost in public safety, not to mention hire charges if one is available? or time to incident if you use cover from another force, + the loss of use to neighbouring force. Risk v Cost again. There is alot more mutual support going on than you know. There is also a review of ASUs going on in ACPO at the moment and they are using a geographical plot and not force area for the distribution of Air Support. WMP could be covered by Central Counties, East Midlands and North Midlands, not my idea!!. I used to fly across WMP to get to Staffordshire jobs with Central Countries. Not my idea to scrap units, I know that each Force needs its helicopter for many reasons but it's all about MONEY and the accountants can save money with fewer more widely spread aircraft. I hope not but they may not replace WMP for this very reason

4/ So there is no manpower to respond to an emergency call on a large commercial airfield.
The call from the Devices we used was over our closed radio system, It could have been over Police Tetra, airfield security, or straight to dispatcher, or to all if the unit was a bespoke one. You ring 999 and scream that you are being shot at, see how long it takes to get a unit on scene. How long does it take to run 50m and throw a fire bomb? These systems are good but an alarm is just noise it doesn't do anything and it won't deter or scare a criminal intent on knocking out a threat to his way of life.

5/ The helio appears to be written off or close to how many mill £?Insured they don't care!!how long for replacement?Months if not years to spec and build a new machine. Good excuse not to replace it. Not me in charge..

6/ Thunderbird trolley is in use with some forces I believe. WMP don't have a hangar to put it in so a trolley no good. How long is the average vehicle pursuit? And you want to drag the aircraft out first? Back to ringing 999 "Thank you for your call. We will be with you once the ARVs are taken out of the garage. There will be a delay as we have to shut the doors again otherwise people will criticise us on the internet for not protecting our valueable equipment.

7/How long before the next attack ? now it appears so easy?Hopefully not soon if the lessons are learnt from this. Life is an evolution, we find something hurts so we don't do it again. Man has been doing that for millions of years. .

I hope this answers your questions? If you read my original post I explained it's now things are. Hopefully all the critics will be volunteering to be Special Constables, RNLI or Coast Guard volunteers etc. to help improve society? Thought not.

By the way, how much are you selling the Sentry unit for? :}

[SASless]

Cost is always a consideration....no matter where you are in the world.

Ask yourself this question....if the aircraft is replaced....what changes will be made in the security setup that exists now?

What changes will other Police Units do as well?

They will not get rid of the aircraft as they play a valuable role but they will improve the security at some cost. Otherwise the next time a successful attack takes place the management will be looking like monkeys for sure.

What costs resulted from the attack in question? Add in the loss of capability that will exist until the replacement aircraft is obtained....put a Pound Sterling cost to that!

Add in the embarrassment factor....both for the Police and the Airport.

Now add in the costs that are bound to occur when other airports begin to reassess their own security arrangements.

This has been an "expensive" event beyond the non-budget expenditures that were caused to the Police Air Unit.

No matter how one winds up with a foot in a pile of dung....you have to accept the fact you put it there.

[huntnhound]

"...No matter how one winds up with a foot in a pile of dung....you have to accept the fact you put it there..."

Indeed it has....for 22 years without incident.

Hnh

[sycamore]

With so many CCTV cameras watching the rest of us,couldn`t they have borrowed a couple ?
I guess all the Astras,Mondeos,Subarus,BMWs are all safely tucked up in garages at night in case they get torched.
I think the dung is over more than the foot..,or perhaps it`s well and truly been shot off. Any resignations in the offing ?
Remember the phrase`A man and his dog....and perhaps a scattergun`.

[volrider]

It seems that the concensus is not who did it but hang those that own it !
Amazing sad look at society today... The wrong doers get away again but do we care...it seems not.. very sad and possibly my last word on this as it seems you just want someone to blame...but not the offenders:(

[timex]

Sorry but I fail to see how its a Police security problem, they are meant to be protected by Airport security and the cab is on an International airport ffs! If the Airport/Aircraft cannot be protected properly then the DoT needs to be sorting this one out before other more attractive targets are attacked.

[SASless]

Show us one post...one sentence from a post anywhere in this thread that suggests this.....just one please! :rolleyes:

How have the perps "gotten away with it again"? The investigation is still on-going iddn'it?:ugh:

We will happily accept that as being your last word.....please!:D

It seems that the concensus is not who did it but hang those that own it !
Amazing sad look at society today... The wrong doers get away again but do we care...it seems not.. very sad and possibly my last word on this as it seems you just want someone to blame...but not the offenders

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

it's apparent that he used to be a Police Pilot (as355 if I recall correctly). So, presumably, he does have a clue.

Makes you think...why an ex. May have some thing to do with his attitude

Grow up girls. Like you have never been a victim of crime. They want it they will have it. I think you need to blame the system and poor sentences.

[Tarman]

I think that the blame for the break in /arson attack lies squarely with the airport security. (or lack of it) In one part of the airport they have little old ladies and airline pilots taking off their belts and shoes and at the other you can spend 20 minutes or so cutting through a chain link fence unchallenged. Maybe if the scrotes had some contact lens fluid or nail clippers about their person they would have been caught.
Major airlines don't need to employ additional security to protect their aircraft within the airfield boundary, why should the Police ?
I wonder if the officers received a Victim Support Helpline Card ?

[ShyTorque]

I do honestly think that this time frame even when applied to Poli$e work would be sufficient.


Afraid not. We often used to be airborne well inside that time. UK Police helicopters do not patrol in a lazy fashion, they are a reactive asset and very often every second counts. Continuity of the evidential chain is one reason.

[500e]

NW
I think you are missing the point I am not attacking the personnel but the system that allows MY MONEY& YOURS to be wasted!!.
It is a scary thought that with all the warnings of terrorism, that the security at one of the largest airports in the UK is so poor, or is the terrorism a smoke screen for other bean counters to try and prise money from the Government (thought I would throw in a conspiracy theory thing just for fun).
The Sentuarys we hired years ago did not go off with either rabbits or foxes, of which there were plenty we used them in a field in a rural aria, & had them set to alert us not flash lights or beep they broadcast on our radio system a voice alert, we did arive once to find a intruder on site just a nosy rambler, but it did work only one false a deer 4Ft high at the shoulder.
We as a Co. do not sell any security devices, (Other than 2 way radios) but if you are serious about purchase will look into the supply of same, would think 4\5 would give you some cover, and us a profit:E

[SilsoeSid]

Brassed Off
They (helicopters) cost millions yet a security guard costs round £10-15,000 a year and most would welcome the chance to sit airside "guarding" the Poli$e helicopter.

A PCSO in the West Midlands is on £18k and we all know what a lot of people think about PCSOs.
https://www.west-midlands.police.uk/wmprrecruit/pcso_powers.asp

Do you honestly expect us to believe that the tax paying residents of the West Midlands are going to be happy paying the same sort of money for someone, and his two or three colleagues, just sit in a hut watching a helicopter, within the boundries of an International Airport which already has 'civilian' and armed police security etc etc!


Not only are you having a giraffe....you are having the whole safari park!

[SilsoeSid]

And just what exactly do you expect this security guard to do, when suddenly in the small dark hours, he/she is faced with a (probably) armed raider with a firebomb, sitting astride his getaway bike?

[volrider]

We will happily accept that as being your last word.....please!
Nice to see you have adopted the usual style of automatically speaking for the "people" :D

[floatsarmed]

Forgive my ignorance as I live in the colonies but is the budget that stretched that a key Police asset needs to be left outside in between jobs / overnight?

I haven't lived in the UK for about 15 years, but has it got so bad that the toe rags are now torching / vandalising multi million pound assets at will?

Whoever is responsible for the security of this machine has obviously failed miserably. If anyone wants to argue the point then just look at the pictures.

Why can't these machines be inside under 24 hr scrutiny?

[volrider]

Sadly there is no hanger for that helicopter, I do think that this incident will be a lessons to be learned as all such incidents are. There are many reasons why the hanger which is planned never got put in place in time, but as far as I am aware all AOU's who have a hanger do not put it away during working hours unless its broke or the wx is bad. I think that will be reviewed. However if someone is intent on such acts they would still find a way...

[aeromys]

Forgive my ignorance.....

I'm afraid I cannot. Did you even read the previous posts? :ugh:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

It is remarkable how the Plod immediatley think that they can have done NO WRONG!!!

Stop flippin whinging and get the helicopters properly secured in a hangar on a trolley.

As for it adding 2 complete minutes to launch. (Bollocks). If the hangar is in the right place, the trolley is suitable, the plod drive it out whilst the spotty pilot does the pre-start, all climb in, fire up the coal burners and OFF to catch scrotes.

When you get back, land on trolley, shut down, wheel helicopter back to bed, in the office for tea and medals.

I COULD DRAW A PICTURE OF ALL OF THIS IF IT WOULD HELP.

And if you think this is unworkable, you better tell WYPA, NAAS, NEASU as they have been doing it like that for years (granted normally when the WX makes them keep it indoors).

Anyway, I hear these days that most ASU flights are launched looking for confused Grannies in their nightdress....or is that a gross exageration.

In my day we chased cars all night till about 3 a.m. then spent the rest of the night drinking champagne, eating lobster in the arms of some beautiful Blonde.........Ahh the mammories!!!!

Oh and the scrotes we were chasing were a better class too. They would not have dreamed of burning our charriot. they would simply say "Its a fair Cop Guv"..."Got me bang to rights"..............even the hardened ones would at least do the honourable thing like crash and explode in flames shouting "You will never take me alive Copper".

Yes the old days really were better!!!

(Maybe a confused Granny did it)!!!!!

[tbc]

Too many NOBs in here!!:mad:

[volrider]

In my day
Yep in your day sort of sums it all up.......maybe your past your sell by date and you have but memories:E

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

VOLRIDER, I passed my sell by date some time back. The piece WAS MEANT TO BE LIGHT-HEARTED.

At least in my day all the PLOD I worked with (for) had a sense of humour!!

[jayteeto]

Of interest, if a Sentry unit had been used here, all that would have happened was that the crew would have got out a couple of minutes earlier to watch the fire!! Sentry is not like the Terminator movies, with laser cannons!!
Again, have you lot not grasped...... THERE WAS NO HANGAR TO USE..........
I repeat, if you are based at an International Airport, you pay for your security from the airport authority. At a guess, that would be civilian security, I may be wrong.
The three minutes that you say 'would not impact on operations'. WRONG WRONG WRONG. The average pursuit is very short, SECONDS make a difference, that is why the aircraft sits semi-primed to go, It saves seconds. The number of times we are 30 seconds late for a job frustrates me, I wish there was a way of getting airborne faster.
Because of this incident, we now hangar our heli after every job, that my friends, is a large step backwards. But because of the embarrassment factor, the bosses dare not lose another airframe. Thats two-nil to the criminals.

[volrider]

Spot on, Jayteeto.
Double Boogie, sense of humour is the first requirement of being a plod, however reading your last post I failed to see humour or it was very well disguised, maybe thats why I never went for C.I.D:}

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

There are many ways to skin a cat (or skinhead). At some ASUs we would routinley pre-position the machnie and crew to an HLS close to where the action might be, spend a few hours loitering and waiting for a job. Crew sat in and gaurding the helicopter.

Its not what happens that defines us, it is what we do about it. Evolve and survive. Find another way.

My memory is fading but I am sure that the WM Helicopter was firebombed, or attacked (unsuccessfully as I recall) in some other way back in the early 90s. Anyone remember this incident??

I also recall arriving at WM security post to start duty dressed in my Police flight suit, brandishing a security pass from another BAA airport and with my license to be told I could not enter without an escort. Whilst waiting for said escort a civilian FW pilot arrived (middle eastern gentleman) who was granted immediete unescorted access on the strength of his flight crew license. When I proffered my license as method of entry I was politley told that as I was not departing the airport (just operating on it) it was not acceptable.

I do take the point that at WM no suitable hangar is avaiable, but surely now this has to be re-addressed with a view to locating the machine properly with the necessary protection it clearly needs.

I feel sorry for the crew that night as they have fallen victim to a system that does not take the horse seriously until it has finally bolted!!

This attack will no doubt change the face of UK Police aviation and will need some real thinkers to maintain the operational readiness at the level required to be effective. You are right, the scrotes are leading 1 nil at the moment.

[fluffy5]

I don't want to get involved with the secruity argument, just to say hello to my mate who has been working out of there for the last year.
Seem's safer now where I am training weapons of mass destruction in the sand for Osama. There's always back to coventry......:}

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

VOLRIDER,

How can you "FAIL" to see humour in the following;

Anyway, I hear these days that most ASU flights are launched looking for confused Grannies in their nightdress....or is that a gross exageration.

In my day we chased cars all night till about 3 a.m. then spent the rest of the night drinking champagne, eating lobster in the arms of some beautiful Blonde.........Ahh the mammories!!!!

Oh and the scrotes we were chasing were a better class too. They would not have dreamed of burning our charriot. they would simply say "Its a fair Cop Guv"..."Got me bang to rights"..............even the hardened ones would at least do the honourable thing like crash and explode in flames shouting "You will never take me alive Copper".

Yes the old days really were better!!!

(Maybe a confused Granny did it)!!!!!


OR DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE "OLD" DAYS WERE LIKE THAT!!!

[volrider]

Doble B, I read your previous post with interest and agree regarding the lack of security when entering BHX, I have seen numerous times folk entering the building without passes etc, they surprisingly get quite narked when I challenge them!
Re sense of humour okay point taken I did not read it that way initially;)
How long is it since you worked there btw?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

2XSnot,

I can sympathise with Vol - I gave up the will to read that post of yours long before I got to the "humorous" (your description... :rolleyes: ) part.

WM Pol don't need to move to a helipad "close to the action" - a significant number of shouts take place so close to the airport that - when I had the privilege to fly Molly for them a few years ago - we were overhead the scene yet still waiting for the TI system to cool down to operating temp. Unlike your exposure to the police world, WM Pol are also one of the units that don't put the aircraft to bed at 3am 'cos they're online 24 hours per day. Are you seriously suggesting that the crew therefore sit in the cockpit/cabin for the entire duration of their 12-hour shift to "guard their asset close to the scene"?

I think tbc has the measure of the thread just about right - there's a novelty, eh? :)

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hi Thud & Blunder, I would not suggest that the police guard the helicopter. Just that the public who pay for it must realise that the units must be "Properly" provided for with a sensible location and a secure place, however that is acheived.

I was probably a bit off the mark with my comments earlier. I apologise to all concerned. I am a bit of a dinosaur as far as Plod Aviation is concerned. When I started out (At Essex ASU) we did not even have a FLIR. Still caught lots of scrotes all the same.

Like all aspects of "new" aviation uses, they start out on a bit of a shoestring and if left unchecked not a lot improves over the course of time. I think Police Aviation has more than proved its value to the general public and for some of the ASUs its time to make the arrangements more permanent and appropriate to the type of tasks the machnie is used for.

Cargate Base is a shining example of what can be achieved when the Police Authority set out to make proper provisions. NEASU at EGNT is another good example of setting out the unit properly so the poor old crews who work the unit can concetrate on what they should be doing.

I vividly remeber my first shift at EGNT, in high winds, moving the machine back to the Belman hangar on a makeshift trolley with the helicopter tied on with a bit of old hemp rope. Turning off the runway being towed by the landie and the damn helicopter tried to "Fall" off the trolley necessitating the entire Airport firecrew to come and help us "Lift" poor old PASF back onto the trolley. Mercifully they have a nice hangar and state of the art trolley to redcue the risks of these things happening.

Things can, and should be better. Not a lot has changed at WM (apart form the helicopter) that gives any impression of "Permanance" to the arangements.

Keep up the good work and I hope the powers that be get a wake up call and give you all the resources and provisions that the job needs.

(I like the "2 Snots" handle, might use that a bit more in casual conversation)

DB

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

VOLRIDER,

I worked at PAS as a "FLOATER" WYORKS, WMIDS, NEASU, SUSSEX, THAMES VALLEY, and a few other ASUs occasionally.

WM would have been around 1993, we had an AS355F2. I got sacked from floating at WM by Mel Mason (Inspector) for speaking to Eurocopter about a strange snag on the Flying Controls of the helicopter.

My naivity discussing the WM Police Helicopter with an outside agency!!!
When the helicopter eventuially went to Staverton for service the boys had to carve away at the pedal stops to get the rigging back to where it should have been. Vindicated but still binned.

It was a good unit and a busy one and at the time the boys were quite in the forefront of the FLIR and Daylight cameras.

I definitley recall a tale of the helicopter being attacked on the pan at the Airport either by attempted firebombing or paintstripper. Cant quite recall all the details and I may be mistaking the actual ASU. Maybe someone can remember.

I eventually settled at Northumbria Air Ambulance for 3 years before coming back to the North Sea to build a bit of a pension.

Still miss the flying though. We had some laughs and spills as we were all really learning how to use all this fancy new kit which seemed to appear almost weekly for us to use, Moving Maps, Flirs, Downlinks. Great Times and and probably the most rewarding part of my dysfunctional flying career.

I started at Essex Police in 1992 at the Old Ford Test track at Boreham. Great unit and a fantastic bunch of guys including the Inspector who was a top bloke. Made some good friends there, Mark Shelley etc.

Yep miss those times.

[QTG]

Will recent events result in the beginning of the end of the Police Authorities' ridiculous dash to helicopter ownership and pilot employment?

Think about it - had WMP not decided to buy their own aircraft and employ the pilots, they would, within a very short time following the incident, have been back in the air in a machine provided by their contractor.

No wonder the UEOs of Wiltshire, Strathclyde and a few others sleep easier at night.......

[SASless]

Perhaps a phone call to the EMS operation in Saginaw, Michigan would help in finding a design for a hangar/trolley setup that works a treat.

The aircraft sat on a large rubber tired Trolley inside a Hanger....when the call was issued...we stepped out of the accomodation....pilot climbed into the aircraft and strapped in....Paramedic hit the door switch and monitored the door....when it was clear of the aircraft.....he hit a second button that turned on the electric winch that ran the trolley out to the end of the track....as we passed under the doorway...he gave a thumbs up and hit the down button for the door...and the pilot fired up the beastie ....the Nurse was already strapped in and the ParaMedic did a quick walkaround and strapped in by the time the aircraft was at RPM.

Landing was easier....land on the trolley, shutdown, grab up the garage remote that handled the door and winch....and the aircraft was retrieved automatically. The winch was wired through the door and could not be operated unless the door was open.

I am told the only reason they did all that was because the Paramedic's were complaining about their hair getting mussed when it rained. The Nurse's did not seem to mind.

[huntnhound]

Strange how the contributers to this thread turn around...

Now we have " 2 x snot and SASuseless being nice:}

Hnh

[ShyTorque]

SASless....nice?

I blame the drink and rose tinted sunglasses on many posts here.

Well, that's me sorted - as for the rest?

[MightyGem]

have been back in the air in a machine provided by their contractor.
So, you know where there is a spare police equipped 135? Do West Mids a favour and let them know where it is.

[SilsoeSid]

Well if no-one has a solution to the nightwatchman v villain scenario lets have a solution to Double Bogey.

Stop flippin whinging and get the helicopters properly secured in a hangar on a trolley.
Whats the big thing about a trolley, when there's HeliLift!

As for it adding 2 complete minutes to launch. (Bollocks). If the hangar is in the right place, the trolley is suitable, the plod drive it out whilst the spotty pilot does the pre-start, all climb in, fire up the coal burners and OFF to catch scrotes.
I agree with the word Bollocks, in that what you say is total bollocks. You want the ac in a locked hangar! So how long is it going to take to unlock hangar, open doors, pull ac out and going along the idea of the ac being on this trolley, secure it by wheel locks/pillars? ..... 'king ages!

The idea of the pilot climbing in and doing the pre starts while the ac is being pulled out, fits straight into the fantasy world you seem to be living in, for 2 immediate reasons. 1 - H&S in climbing up onto an unstable platform and 2 - who is going to watch the hangar door to ensure the blades are clear?

And if you think this is unworkable, you better tell WYPA, NAAS, NEASU as they have been doing it like that for years (granted normally when the WX makes them keep it indoors).
Can someone from one of those units tell us please the time it takes to do this? And how the risk assessment scores it!
If the weather is so bad that the ac needs to be in the hangar, why is it being launched?

Anyway, I hear these days that most ASU flights are launched looking for confused Grannies in their nightdress....or is that a gross exageration.
Not most, but for example when I left work this evening we were sorting out 2 mutual aid tasks for just that very thing.


At some ASUs we would routinley pre-position the machnie and crew to an HLS close to where the action might be, spend a few hours loitering and waiting for a job. Crew sat in and gaurding the helicopter.
Nice if you know where the jobs are going to be :rolleyes:

I also recall arriving at WM security post to start duty dressed in my Police flight suit, brandishing a security pass from another BAA airport and with my license to be told I could not enter without an escort. Whilst waiting for said escort a civilian FW pilot arrived (middle eastern gentleman) who was granted immediete unescorted access on the strength of his flight crew license.
Upset because you were not admitted as you didn't have the correct ID...and you complain about the clear lack of security at BHX. :ugh:

Does it make a difference that the civ fw pilot is how you describe, a middle eastern gentleman? Maybe in your day, but these days things are different.
Besides, by adding 'gentleman' doesn't hide your racist inclinations! :=

I would not suggest that the police guard the helicopter.

So ,if you are saying that, why say things like;

Reading through this thread all that comes to mind is the classic "Plod" tactic of refusing to accept any responsibility for the incident.

Far too easy to sit 150m away drinking coffee and reading "NutS" mag than to actually guard the helicopter.
The facts look pretty obvious to me:
Plod drinking coffee/watching vids while scrote cuts through fence, sets fire to helicopter and makes good his escape!!!!

Or is that more of your back pedalling humour?

[Heli-phile]

In 1988 I remember doing a Late mail flight out of Liverpool and Whilst doing my pre-flight at about 00:45am, a large car literally crashed through the airport gate and drove over to the As355 (i think) parked on the apron, whereupon its passengers began throwing petrol bombs at it :eek: and then screeched off into the night. This helicopter amazingly received only scorching!! (we were onto it quickly with extinguishers)

Obviously the newly arrived machine was causing the scumbags too much trouble and they decided to take direct action. (looked like a scene from the sweeney)

[Heli-phile]

Lets look at this event in a lateral manner and start with this question

Why was this machine based at the airport in the 1st place? Its a helicopter??, why suffer/cause the delays, grief and annoyance of having to operate out of the most congested part of the entire airspace. This and other units should be based in secure remote compounds. If noise is a problem put the compound somewhere away from residences.

It is a mobile airborne assett and yet people still think in 'fixed wing' 2 dimensional mind sets.
Work backwards:
1 -Get a multi million pound SPIFR/A cat/Flir equiped State of the art piece of machineary
2 - put said Helicopter onto a large flat trolley
3 - Build a hangar and put said helicopter/trolley into Hangar
4 - Put Hangar into a secure compound (no runway/international terminal/ATC tower/multistorey carparks etc needed)
5 - Dig a big moat around said compound and fill it with water
6 - fit a drawbridge.:ok:

Right - unless the scroats launch mortars or rappel into the compound, it should all be good.

Seriously, Give me 1 years premium on this machine and I will set up a scroat proof , neighbour friendly, bespoke base.
I think up until now its not been a lack of security thats the problem, its just a lack of imagination!!

If our Ancestors could keep heavily armed armies out of our castles for months on end, I think we can manage to keep some scroats away from a helicopter for a few minutes until the cavalry arrive!!!!!!:ugh:

I welcome PM's from interested Constabularys who want to discuss further!!

[SilsoeSid]

The problem with building such a secure compound, is that if you make it so difficult to take out the aircraft when it is on the ground, it will simply be taken out when it is in the air.

When it is in the air it is occupied! :(


End of!

[QTG]

"So, you know where there is a spare police equipped 135? Do West Mids a favour and let them know where it is".

BAS have a fleet spare

[SASless]

Heli-Phile,


Unless the scotes happen to be named Norman perhaps!:uhoh:

[tigerfish]

QTG!
The reason Police Authorities and Chief officers buy aircraft rather than lease them is that they get at least 40% HO grant towards the purchase of the primary asset. Importantly, at the end of any typical 10 year period they, (the owners), have a very significant capital asset. Had they a leased, they would have nothing. - Nevertheless, the lessor would have made a very nice profit thank you, and also had the aircraft to sell or lease to another operator.
Direct purchase has to be better for the tax payer. Even taking into consideration these recent blips. Just look at the record over the past 25 years, I think that direct ownership has proved itself time & time again.

UK Police aviation has consistantly proved itself to be a leader in its field; so lets not knock it. I would submit that if only half as much time as is given to condeming units for poor security, as was given to catching the scroats responsible, it would be Job well Done!

But going back to the oricginal thread, - why was it done? Well that just goes to prove how effective the concept of Police Air Support is, - someone was finding the ever overhead presence of airborne plod, just too restricting.

Tigerfish

[Skidkid]

DOUBLE BOGEY

I got sacked from floating at WM by Mel Mason (Inspector) for speaking to Eurocopter about a strange snag on the Flying Controls of the helicopter.

I eventually settled at Northumbria Air Ambulance for 3 years before coming back to the North Sea....

Was it you that got sacked from Northumbria Air Ambulance as well?

[sunnywa]

Hey there,

First of all my commiserations (sp?) to the WM Police for the loss of their valuable asset. As a Polair driver myself, I have often wondered about the security of the beast parked on the hardstanding and long ago came to the conclusion that if someone wants to take it out, then they will. No fence (outside of the sandpit) will keep a determined baddie out.
For all those chaps out there berating the poor plod for not defending the aircraft to their last breath (into the valley of death flew the brave 3), I am not going to risk my life for an asset (that is presumably insured) and don't expect any of the crew to sit out in the weather guarding it 24/7. You could maybe set up a security company for the job but in my experience, the guard would arrive in his wheelchair well after the event.
The whole idea of the Police chopper is quick response, so short of building an elaborate launcing system such as SASless described (I don't want whats left of my hair mussed either), this means that it is going to be outside.
Aviation wise, an international airport is probably one of the safest around. Imagine doing a Risk Assessment and coming up with something that has the airport being unsafe - the Govt would have a heart attack. That they managed to cut their way in goes to show that nothing is perfect and hopefully they have learnt from their mistakes.
With regards to operating from a compound, I believe (but are willing to be corrected) that the Police must operate Cat A everywhere so not having a larger pad for Cat A will severely restrict its fuel load. Again, a big airfield is good and as long as the ATC are helpful, it is the best solution. Security, size and has all the infrastructure (fuel, specialist maintainers etc).
In conclusion to all you hardasses out there, sh*t happens and if this can happen to this helo, then it can happen anywhere with a determined foe.
Again, hope the WM get a quick fix helo and get into the air to get stuck into these offenders. You must be good to p*ss them off this much.:D

[volrider]

Sunnywa , excellent post that encapsulates everything perfectly, sadly other plod bashers here seem to have a severe lacking in your common sense approach:ok:

[HeliCraig]

Sunnywa , excellent post that encapsulates everything perfectly, sadly other plod bashers here seem to have a severe lacking in your common sense approach (I have added emphasis).

Now we get down to it. I think everyone will agree, that for a multitude of reasons the security wasn't right, or not as good as it could have been; and am positive everyone will be happy no-one got hurt.

... but it seems we can't say anything bad about the police. Well, for the purpose of coming clean, I have a grudge to bear against WMP. I was brought up to respect the police; but in my adult life they have done nothing to warrant continued respect and in fact have done a lot to destroy the respect. I'll keep this brief.

I was stopped on a major road in Coventry as my car had flagged up as "non existent" (IE: no tax, insurance) on an ANPR check. The officers were very rude and treated me like a criminal, the presumption of innocence is obviously alive within WMP. When I sat in the back of the car, it transpired the ANPR had mis-read my number plate - it ends in BNN they had BNM. However, rather than admit their mistake I was stopped from going about my business for nearly 40 minutes while they accused me of driving a stolen car, and checked the VIN on the chassis, checked my insurance with insurance co, checked me on PNC etc... they just wanted to get something on me rather than admit to a mistake which wasn't even of their own making - technology can fail. In the end they let me go, but no sign of an apology. I complained, and got a turse written apology. Simple politeness would have gone a long way from WMP. I'll add I was polite and courteous at all times and not even slightly irate until the end when they wouldn't even apologise. So no bashing the police - they don't like it.

[SASless]

They do have a 'Thankless" job....we complain when we have them intervene in our normal lives....and cuss them when they are not around when we want them to intervene. Add insult to injury when they tell you they are not coming out because your criminal harm does not warrant an official visit or action...but they sure seem to have the time to make your life miserable if they seek you out first.

We can all tell stories of misconduct, rudeness, or sloth.....but then poor old Plod himself has a tote bag full of complaints about how he gets treated.

We have to remember they are the Long Blue Line that tries to keep the thugs beat down so the rest of us can go about our business.

They make mistakes.....and it is acceptable to point them out...and not be guilty of Plod Bashing.

Heli-Craig,

How would you like to deal with this Cop?

Remember the whole time there was a patient inside the Ambulance!

STATter 911: UPDATED - MUST SEE VIDEO: Full dash cam video now released by OHP. Prosecutor calls Trooper Daniel Martin's actions "inappropriate from the outset". (http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/2009/06/prosecutor-blasts-trooper-in-letter-to.html)

[HeliCraig]

SAS, we all make mistakes - we are human; its what we do when we realise that we have that sets people apart.

In my case the officer should have realised the mistake, it was obvious & not even his mistake, checked the correct number plate in ANPR, found nothing wrong, apologised and moved on. I would have even been happy, as it would have meant that not only were they trying their hardest to catch the undesirables, but that they were human too!!

It just seems that you can't question the police these days, and too many of the individual officers have forgotten that not everyone is a criminal!

As for your EMS -vs OHP stuff.... well, lost for words and don't want to get too much thread creep. Looks like a charge of assault to me, but like everyone else he has the right to have his case investigated and be tried by a jury if charges are brought.

[jayteeto]

I am only a contractor who flies for the police. However, since when can't you criticise them?? Just because I disagree with comments in this case doesn't mean I won't have a go at them when it is deserved. There are some people on Pprune who will have a go whenever they can, when they are corrected, they claim that the police will never take criticism.
I stand by my statement..... If you pay for security at an international airport, you expect this NOT to happen. Fairoaks is a different story, the security SHOULD have been better but the system was to blame, not the individual crew. You are not expecting or fully equipped to deal with weapon carrying criminals. If they need to sit with body armour/taser/CS all at the ready then lets give them the kit or up the local manning levels to support the requirement. I would not want to face petrol bombs and axes armed with a set of Flight reference Cards and a chinagraph!! Our crew leaves the site, short term, to carry out admin tasks/fuel management, leaving me manning the pumps. I do not get paid to face weapons. So please cut some slack for the individual crews involved. Criticise the management by all means, but remember they are under intense financial pressure.
PS. You will get my full support for having a go when real mistakes are made.

[HeliCraig]

Jay,

I have repeatedly said throughout my posts that there is no criticism, implicit or direct, of the actual people on the ground that evening. None whatsoever, and from what I have been told there is nothing they could have done in any case. So I have plenty of slack for those concerned.

My criticism's were entirely leveled at the force as a whole for, in my opinion, relying too heavily on the "its a major intl airport" argument with regard to security. The security at BHX has been subject of public derision in the past (reported here (http://is.gd/11Ip4)), so WMP can have (again in my opinion) no excuse save for complacency as the attack itself doesn't appear to be particular sophisticated (well planned, yes).

Of course, as others have elluded to - perhaps, on a commercial / financial basis its cheaper to get insurance who are happy with the risk and accept the occasional loss. Unfortunately the insurance won't help with public perception! As I have also said earlier, the interesting thing will be what if any improvements are made at BHX as a result of this and insurance demands...

[SilsoeSid]

Helicraig,

Well, for the purpose of coming clean, I have a grudge to bear against WMP.

So we can take it then that all your posts here have been written with venom. Making the most of this to get back at WMP and not looking at the bigger issues. I don't think you have slightly condemned the person(s) who did this, but rather concentrate on having a go at WMP. As I said before, it seems that some here are treating them as heroes.

I have repeatedly said throughout my posts that there is no criticism, implicit or direct, of the actual people on the ground that evening. None whatsoever, and from what I have been told there is nothing they could have done in any case.

Apart from when you said; "They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to."


As I have also said earlier, the interesting thing will be what if any improvements are made at BHX as a result of this

If BHX says security is within guidelines, then I guess none!

[SilsoeSid]

Helicraig,

After all you have said on this thread, do you still agree with what you said earlier?

In many ways this would be much more forgivable if it were a smaller airfield in a smaller police force...

[HeliCraig]

So we can take it then that all your posts here have been written with venom. Making the most of this to get back at WMP and not looking at the bigger issues. I don't think you have slightly condemned the person(s) who did this, but rather concentrate on having a go at WMP. As I said before, it seems that some here are treating them as heroes.

Not at all with venom, but if it suits you to believe so - go right ahead. Venom is a bit strong for wasting an hour of my life, but certainly I certainly distrust WMP now, and this is as result of their own actions.

I think I have pointed to the bigger of issue of poor security at a major intl airport several times in fact. That and the fact that WMP failed to assess it as such despite previous high profile warnings. So yes, if thats having a go at WMP then so be it.

And no, perhaps I haven't directly condemned them - but for the record they are quite clearly low lives of the highest form and I hope the book is thrown at them.

Will you be so kind as to admit that security isn't what it ought to be if someone can break into a major intl airport and torch an a/c? You haven't done that yet Sid, but have trumped up scenarios involving kniving people's wives - fear is a tactic too often used by the authorities these days!!

Apart from when you said; "They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to."
Yes... they as in WMP. Not They as in you and your colleagues.

After all you have said on this thread, do you still agree with what you said earlier?
Yes. I would find it much easier to forgive the lack of security at say Wellesbourne, or Coventry. BHX is the 6th biggest airport in the UK. So yes, definitely more forgiveable at smaller airfields.

As for being policed by a smaller force, yes also more forgiveable but to a lesser extent. Warwickshire, for instance, only have 1,000 police officers (or thereabouts) and have a large area to police with much more limited resources and far less aviation experience. Looking at latest accounts from the Police Authorities concerned, Warwickshire had a net operating expenditure of £124m, WMP £781 - so I don't think you can expect the same results. (Yes, I know there are many other factors, size, population etc but this makes a simple point). So yes, peoples expectation of the performance of WMP is higher...

At some point will you admit that perhaps someone, somewhere in WMP made a mistake here?

[SilsoeSid]

Will you be so kind as to admit that security isn't what it ought to be if someone can break into a major intl airport and torch an a/c? You haven't done that yet Sid

But I have said - "I for one am dying to hear someone who is big enough to stick their head over the top, and say what else should/could have been done to prevent this."

I have also said - "Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force!" and despite directly being asked your opinion, you still haven't told us what else you think should have been in force.


Like the Saudi Royal Air Force and the MoD/RAF and anyone else who park their aircraft over the Elmdon side, we all thought it more secure than it actually was/is.

Quote:
Apart from when you said; "They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to."
Yes... they as in WMP. Not They as in you and your colleagues.

A classic back pedal when caught out !

[SilsoeSid]

At some point will you admit that perhaps someone, somewhere in WMP made a mistake here?

Will you tell me who is responsible for security at BHX !

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCraig,

Are you saying that if the Warwickshire Helicopter had been done in, it would have been ok?

By quoting all those figures from Warwickshire
As for being policed by a smaller force, yes also more forgiveable but to a lesser extent. Warwickshire, for instance, only have 1,000 police officers (or thereabouts) and have a large area to police with much more limited resources and far less aviation experience. Looking at latest accounts from the Police Authorities concerned, Warwickshire had a net operating expenditure of £124m, WMP £781 - so I don't think you can expect the same results. (Yes, I know there are many other factors, size, population etc but this makes a simple point). So yes, peoples expectation of the performance of WMP is higher...

It clearly shows your total ignorance of Police Air Support in your region.

As a Warwickshire tax payer (assumed from your profile location)
HeliCraig
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Warwick
Age: 27
Posts: 268
and a keen helicopter-eer I would have thought that you would know a bit more about the Police Air Support you pay for. :p

[HeliCraig]

I have also said - "Go on HC, simply say what protection should have been in force!" and despite directly being asked your opinion, you still haven't told us what else you think should have been in force

Are you reading the same thread?
In the same way you plan for any other unexpected incidence. You take worst case and plan around it. However, I have worked in a clothes warehouse with, by the looks of it, a better fence. An alarm would go if it was cut, touched or inteferred with. That was for a warehouse full of jeans... and I saw it at work one night, and Warwickshire police felt a few collars as a result. Surely BHX should have similar?

I have also said previously that I have worked in a warehouse which provided an instant alert if the fence was so much as touched. Looking at the size of the hole cut in the fence at BHX, I think its a fair bet that this would have provided either airport security or WMP sufficient time to go and investigate the fence panel reporting a tamper, or at least get them in the area and perhaps limit the damage by reducing time taken to get the AFRS on scene. I would add that this warehouse belonged to a large American company, and the contents... jeans. So I think it is a reasonable expectation that the 6th biggest airport in the UK had something more advanced than a simple wire mesh fence
So, perhaps you just don't want to hear it?? Is it a tad embarrassing that a clothes retailer looks after its jeans better than BHX protects a major international airport, and one of the countries biggest police forces didn't notice?

A classic back pedal when caught out !
Yes... all the way back to Post 75, when I clarified it...
To be clear, by "they" I mean the police force as a whole and certainly not any individuals, as I have stated previously.

we all thought it more secure than it actually was/is.
Is this the admission I sought? How can you have been in any doubt about how lapse it has been in the past though, given the very high profile exposes?

Will you tell me who is responsible for security at BHX!
Obviously, on a day to day basis... BHX. Can you tell me who is responsible for crime prevention / detection / public security at BHX?

Oh, and going back to this...
So we can take it then that all your posts here have been written with venom.

Can we assume that all your posts are written with the rose tinted, WMP can do no wrong, specs provided with every pay packet?? You're only really proving my point that it WMP believe they can do no wrong, and refuse to admit when mistakes have been made!

[HeliCraig]

Are you saying that if the Warwickshire Helicopter had been done in, it would have been ok?

By quoting all those figures from Warwickshire it clearly shows your total ignorance of Police Air Support in your region.

As a Warwickshire tax payer (assumed from your profile location) and a keen helicopter-eer I would have thought that you would know a bit more about the Police Air Support you pay for.

I get the feeling you are just taking issue with anything I say now. We both know that the warwickshire heli can't be done in, because it doesn't exist. I think I have a reasonable knowledge of ASU's, but thanks for your concern.

The point I was trying to make is that people have a much higher expectation of WMP and BHX because of their relative size and importance. It would still be embarrassing for EMASU to loose their aircraft though - mind you, they don't have BHX to blame / hide behind.

[SASless]

Perhaps this is the crux of the problem for UK Police Air Units....

You are not expecting or fully equipped to deal with weapon carrying criminals. If they need to sit with body armour/taser/CS all at the ready then lets give them the kit or up the local manning levels to support the requirement. I would not want to face petrol bombs and axes armed with a set of Flight reference Cards and a chinagraph!!

The Bad Guys are armed.....the Police not!

The counter argument is if the Police are armed....the criminals will arrive better armed....I guess.

Remington 870 Shotguns with 00 Buckshot and Large Caliber Pistols work a treat on axe and petrol bomb wielding criminals...they will lay right down and wait for the handcuffs and rights warning after getting dusted with the buckshot.

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCraig,

Sorry I missed the repeat of the jeans factory alarm, it was mixed in the middle of a larger post.


Ok, so you are saying an alarmed fence.

As long as the foxes/badgers/hares didn't set off enough false alarms over the years since installation.

Jeans factory concrete/tarmac
Airfield....field !

[Cacophonix]

IMHO the officers (and contractors) crewing these aircraft should be trained, suffiiciently armed and authorised to use deadly force to protect their aircraft.

Perhaps my Southern African past colours my attitude but what has it come to when UK police helicopters are destroyed on the ground by criminals. This is not vandalism, it is terrorism. :ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Can you tell me who is responsible for crime prevention / detection / public security at BHX?

TRANSEC Annual report 2007-08 (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/security/about/transecannualreports/annualreport)
etc

We both know that the warwickshire heli can't be done in, because it doesn't exist.
And if any other Police Helicopter was done in, you would still say that Xxxxxshire Police should be able to protect their most valuable vehicle and have a dig, just as you are now.
I don't think you are particularly anti WMP, but Police in general. Just handy for you it was the same forces helicopter that the traffic bods belonged to!


Can we assume that all your posts are written with the rose tinted, WMP can do no wrong, specs provided with every pay packet?? You're only really proving my point that it WMP believe they can do no wrong, and refuse to admit when mistakes have been made!
Afraid my posts are written with glasses that see all sides and not just from one, bitter side.

And do you really expect us to believe your anti WMP story earlier, that you were polite and courteous at all times.:suspect:

[huntnhound]

Perhaps my Southern African past colours my attitude but what has it come to when UK police helicopters are destroyed on the ground by criminals.

Welcome to the warm, pink, fluffy and soft world of the Uk government:hmm:

Hnh

[HeliCraig]

Sorry I missed the repeat of the jeans factory alarm, it was mixed in the middle of a larger post.
Always a good idea to read, and often re-read someone else's ramblings before critiquing them old bean!! :O

Ok, so you are saying an alarmed fence. As long as the foxes/badgers/hares didn't set off enough false alarms over the years since installation. Jeans factory concrete/tarmac. Airfield....field !
True.... wasn't a problem where I was, and it was exposed to country side on 3 edges, although the perimeter of BHX is larger.

TRANSEC Annual report 2007-08
etcSo, a veiled attempt at deflecting the fact that WMP are responsible for crime & disorder around BHX?

And if any other Police Helicopter was done in, you would still say that Xxxxxshire Police should be able to protect their most valuable vehicle and have a dig, just as you are now.
I don't think you are particularly anti WMP, but Police in general. Just handy for you it was the same forces helicopter that the traffic bods belonged to!

Perhaps I would. It is pretty lamentable that, other than the planning, it was relatively easy to destroy an aircraft. The fact it is a police one just makes it more embarrassing. And perhaps I am anti-police; as I said I was brought up to respect them, but in my adult life they haven't exactly endeared themselves to me. Peoples respect and reputations are mutually earned.

Afraid my posts are written with glasses that see all sides and not just from one, bitter side.
Yet you can't concede that WMP have done anything at all wrong??

And do you really expect us to believe your anti WMP story earlier, that you were polite and courteous at all times.
You are entitled to believe whatever you wish. Several times during this thread alone I have asked people to refrain from personal insults. This might indicate something about my personality. Manners cost nothing.

I was short with them by the end of the encounter, but certainly not rude.

[SilsoeSid]

So, a veiled attempt at deflecting the fact that WMP are responsible for crime & disorder around BHX?

Glad you've seen it now! "around"

[volrider]

So Helicraig, I park my new car in a secure carpark that states it has aprivate security firm that does regular patrols etc, it gets torched and I sit and think "Oh well its my fault".... Yeah Ok...I wonder if you had not had a bad experience with the police would you still argue the point so much?

[Cacophonix]

Have just finished reading all the posts on this thread and what comes through is that some people have a "beef" with the police.

To anyone who has a beef, I ask you this? What has a personal grievance got to do with the destruction of this helicopter? Surely if one is living in the West Midlands, the first thought that should come to mind is that these scum have burned "your" helicopter. You pay for it! It is part of your community. It protects you and your family. It deters crime against you and yours. It might just save somebody's life one day. God forbid that that life may be yours!

What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?

Would you feel any worse if these low life had burned down your local library, your town hall, your house?

Wake up people, such thinking is the slippery slope to hell.

Rant over.

[SilsoeSid]

I would like to remind the followers of their Robin Hooded Heroes that the Police Helicopter doesn't just catch people trying burgle your house, rape your mother/daughter or steal your car. Nor is it confined to catching those that will ultimately lead your children into a life of drugs hell or simply leave them in a pool of blood for simply looking at them the wrong way.

Have you even considered that during this time of year, not only at night, but also in the early morning hours and late evenings, the Police Helicopter is all there is.

Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!

Need we mention the missing children, elderly and ill, or indeed any other circumstance where the skills of the crew and versatility of a helicopter is able to save life!


I hope the finger waggers here (if the cap fits) are now happy and feeling safer in their smug little world now they don't have the 24/7 out of hours cover.

Remember that on the way into work in the morning or when going out in the evening, and then again on the way back home when it's dark!

TaTa

[huntnhound]

Moral relativism

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have just finished reading all the posts on this thread and what comes through is that some people have a "beef" with the police.

To anyone who has a beef, I ask you this? What has a personal grievance got to do with the destruction of this helicopter? Surely if one is living in the West Midlands, the first thought that should come to mind is that these scum have burned "your" helicopter. You pay for it! It is part of your community. It protects you and your family. It deters crime against you and yours. It might just save somebody's life one day. God forbid that that life may be yours!

What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?

Would you feel any worse if these low life had burned down your local library, your town hall, your house?

Wake up people, such thinking is the slippery slope to hell.

Rant over.

Excellent rant...i mean post:)

[Fortyodd2]

“We both know that the warwickshire heli can't be done in, because it doesn't exist. I think I have a reasonable knowledge of ASU's”.

Sorry to break up the Sid and Craig show but your knowledge of ASU’s isn’t as good as you think. The Warwickshire heli does exist and lives in the same hangar as the Leicestershire and Northamptonshire heli.

[HeliCraig]

I do seem to have ruffled some feathers - I'll address some points if I can:

Glad you've seen it now! "around"
Brilliant, lets rely on semantics. So, if there is a fight in the terminal, or some protesters on the runway, who do BHX call? Face up to the fact that WMP are responsible for prevention / detection of crime at BHX. Yes, security of the site itself is the responsbility of BHX, but even that is most likely in conjunction with WMP.

So Helicraig, I park my new car in a secure carpark that states it has aprivate security firm that does regular patrols etc, it gets torched and I sit and think "Oh well its my fault".... Yeah Ok...I wonder if you had not had a bad experience with the police would you still argue the point so much?
Of course I wouldn't think that. I have also not said that it is WMP's fault their helicopter got torched, I have said that their assessment of the risk was faulty.

If that same sign from your analogy had a large copy of a press article highlighting how bad the security has been in the recent past and I still chose to park there, then I at least can't say I didn't know the risk. BHX security was subject to numerous press articles and an entire 30 documentary on prime time television. Also, my car isn't a high profile anti criminal asset and as far as I am aware I haven't acquired any "enemies" with grudges to bear (except perhaps you & Sid maybe! :rolleyes:). It all about the risk assessment... it must have been wrong for this to happen so easily.

Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!
If all else fails, bring emotions and fear back in to it? Good plan. Lets not even start the debate about why HEMS don't fly at night shall we?

I hope the finger waggers here (if the cap fits) are now happy and feeling safer in their smug little world now they don't have the 24/7 out of hours cover.

Not sure if this is aimed at me or not. For the record though, I am wagging my finger only at the risk assessment and security provided. I do not feel safer, quite the contrary. As I said earlier, it was a very bad day for us all.

What will you tolerate? Should criminals be allowed to burn your local police station, because you have had a run in with the police and feel hard done by (rightly or wrongly)?
No. I have not at any point said what happened was right, or good. I have said the exact opposite. And my run in with two traffic cops has little to do with it.

The Warwickshire heli does exist and lives in the same hangar as the Leicestershire and Northamptonshire heli.
That was Sid's point, I believe.

[SilsoeSid]

Helicraig,

I think you are getting there all by yourself.

Can you tell me who is responsible for crime prevention / detection / public security at BHX?

Yes, security of the site itself is the responsbility of BHX,





Originally Posted by SiloeSid
Of course the Police Helicopter is always available 24/7 for life saving flights if needed, anywhere in the region in addition to the Air Ambulances if the numbers of casualties require it. Don't forget Air Ambulances can go u/s sometimes and incidents can have multiple life threatening injuries!


If all else fails, bring emotions and fear back in to it? Good plan. Lets not even start the debate about why HEMS don't fly at night shall we?

Finally realised the value of what has been lost eh...!

Not so ...'Riding through the glen with his band of merry men' ...now, is it!

[SilsoeSid]

I have also not said that it is WMP's fault their helicopter got torched, I have said that their assessment of the risk was faulty.

Mmmm, so what does all these comments point to?;

At best its embarrassing, at worst its incompetent.
They were incapable of protecting there own aircraft, that much is fact, it was in their charge and it got set fire to.

but you must surely admit that WMP could have done more

My criticism's were entirely leveled at the force as a whole for, in my opinion, relying too heavily on the "its a major intl airport" argument with regard to security. The security at BHX has been subject of public derision in the past (reported here), so WMP can have (again in my opinion) no excuse save for complacency as the attack itself doesn't appear to be particular sophisticated (well planned, yes).

That and the fact that WMP failed to assess it as such despite previous high profile warnings. So yes, if thats having a go at WMP then so be it.


At some point will you admit that perhaps someone, somewhere in WMP made a mistake here?

Is it a tad embarrassing that a clothes retailer looks after its jeans better than BHX protects a major international airport, and one of the countries biggest police forces didn't notice?

You're only really proving my point that it WMP believe they can do no wrong, and refuse to admit when mistakes have been made!



And perhaps I am anti-police;

Perhaps! :eek: :confused::confused::confused::confused::eek:
:rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

HeliCraig...Do not read this;

15 June (today)
Police-helicopter-called-to-help (http://www.banburyguardian.co.uk/news/Police-helicopter-called-to-help.5367239.jp)

or even this separate story;

15 June (today)
Helicopter_called_to_help_find_missing_boy/ (http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/4437887.Helicopter_called_to_help_find_missing_boy/)

[SilsoeSid]

And while I'm at it...published today;

Eye-in-the-sky (http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/Eye-in-the-sky39s-a.5365104.jp)

"The fact the aircraft can re-role from being a police-based air support unit to provide medical support tand being used as an air ambulance within minutes is very significant."

The police helicopter crew was recently praised for their "brilliant work" after saving a young woman from the brink of drowning in a dramatic river rescue.

The woman had become stranded in thick mud and was neck-deep in the River Nene near Wisbech when she was dragged to safety just minutes before she would have been swallowed up by rising tidal waters.

Pictures released by Cambridgeshire police showed the moment she was spotted by the force chopper's thermal imaging camera."

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hi SkidKid,

Not me mate. I was Chief Pilot at NAAS for three years (working for PAS) and then resigned to come back up to the NS to get some "Pension Time" in. Left PAS and NAAS on Good Terms.

No-one got sacked during my tenure so not sure what/who you are referring to.

Regards

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Having read the last few pages of this thread I am feeling a bit guilty for my apparent "Plod Bashing" as I was critical of the unit and should not have been.

The Plod do an unenviable task in a pretty thankless society on the whole and all of the Bobbies I worked with up and down the Country seemed to possess an almost endless patience with members of the public that generally left me feeling pretty humbled.

Sure there are some **** bobbies just like there are **** pilots and sadly it is the minority who seem to tar the majority when they do something nasty or make a mistake.

On reflection I take the point that the AC must be at immediate readiness to make the tasks viable but somehow this has to be balanced by adequate security to ensure the AC is safe and more importantly (god forbid) that the crews (often only three alone in dead of night) are also safe.

The challenge for the Boss Bobbies is how to achieve this balance!!

Good luck to all and hope to WM get back in the air asap.

[HeliCraig]

Sid,

Please stop it with the stories of the good work you do, once again resorting to emotional marketing. I have not once said that the aircraft, or the ASU (you) do anything other than an exceptional job in often very difficult circumstances. I just wouldn't do that.

What I have said is that someone at WMP has made a mistake with regard to their assessment of the security, which was patently inadequate. That is all.

I have not engaged in any personal insults or derision, so perhaps you could refrain from the same also?

Its obvious that you won't admit that someone got something wrong when they assessed the security of BHX, so we will have to agree to differ.

For the record, once and for all: What happened to the heli is awful, and can have only been perpetrated by the lowest form of life. It was a sad day for us all, and we lost a very good ship and a massive public resource. We are fortunate that no-one was hurt and it was attacked on the ground. I hope that when WMP do find the culprits that the book is thrown at them. WMP ASU (and all other ASU's) do a fantastic job on our behalf, and the world would be a darker place without them. I hope that you get back in the air pronto.

[General Dread]

HeliCraig,

If the aircraft resides within the airport perimeter, which it does, then surely the inadequacy lies in the security of the airport perimeter itself.

Looking at the pictures, it seems once through that perimeter fence - you're in! Nothing else lies between you and any aircraft within the airport perimeter.

I'm interested to know, what would your opinion be if it was a Monarch aircraft that was attacked? Is it then Monarch who have "made a mistake with regard to their assessment of the security, which was patently inadequate"?

GD.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Helicraig...

For the record, once and for all: What happened to the heli is awful, and can have only been perpetrated by the lowest form of life. It was a sad day for us all, and we lost a very good ship and a massive public resource. We are fortunate that no-one was hurt and it was attacked on the ground. I hope that when WMP do find the culprits that the book is thrown at them. WMP ASU (and all other ASU's) do a fantastic job on our behalf, and the world would be a darker place without them. I hope that you get back in the air pronto.

nice post maybe you should have thought of that a little sooner :=
rather than making a bit of a mamory of yourself :\

[Flying Lawyer]

I've followed this thread with a mixture of fascination and disbelief.

Heli-cal made the sort of comments I expect of him and left.

Helicraig
You started with ..... their "playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling ....... if they can't look after their own helicopter it really doesn't bode well for the rest of us does it? At best its embarrassing, at worst its incompetent. I think it is probably somewhere between the two!
"playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling
What on earth does that mean? :confused:
Are they not victims of crime even if (in your opinion) they could have done more to prevent it?

If they can't look after their own helicopter it really doesn't bode well for the rest of us does it?
Was that meant to be a sensible comment or were you just trying to provoke a reaction?

You've since made several posts in similar vein.
Why is it so important to you to that others agree with you?

I have a grudge to bear against WMP
You may well have very good reason. Unfortunately, some police officers needlessly antagonise members of the public who would otherwise have continued to be staunch supporters. (eg By adopting an arrogant manner, or by reporting trivia instead of giving a warning.) However, I wonder if perhaps you're allowing the experience you describe to cloud your judgment here.

.

[heli-cal]

Heli-cal made the sort of comments I expect of him and left.

Actually Tudor, since being informed of the sudden death of a friend, I've been quite busy and have not had the opportunity to address certain points which have been made!

[Coconutty]

OK - there have been a number of suggestions from different people, that they might move out - but where would they go :confused:

It's easy to say "buy a trolley, stick it in a hangar, surround the hangar with a trench / moat / drawbridge / electrified fencing etc." but WHERE exactly ?

The West Midlands Police area is relatively small and densely populated, meaning there would be planning permission issues / noise complaints if sited too near to houses, but it would also need to be within striking distance of their operating area to achieve the same response times.

I can't think of anywhere suitable off the top of my head - everywhere I look on my map that seems like it might be a good spot has electricity pylons and wires all over the pace, so - who knows the West Midlands area well enough from those suggesting a move - to come up with a sensible / workable alternative ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[Flying Lawyer]

heli-cal

I'm sorry to hear you've lost a friend.

Ironically, pointing out that you'd left the discussion was intended to be the complimentary part of my comment.

[HeliCraig]

I'm interested to know, what would your opinion be if it was a Monarch aircraft that was attacked?

A very good point indeed. I think it comes back to public perception (which I will touch on again in a moment in reply to Tudor), but people have a higher expectation of WMP than they do of Monarch etc when it comes to organising security / assessing risk. If it were another aircraft that were damaged, people would be asking questions of BHX and WMP as to why the security was so easily circumvented, why there was no intelligence (accepting not always possible), and what would be done in future to prevent a re-occurance. This is what has been asked of Stanstead & Essex police, and London City & The Met in light of their recent security problems.

Another point of course is that generally Monarch etc don't use their aircraft to curtail the activities of criminals, and thus can reasonably expect not to attract unwanted attention from them more than WMP can. It is a very high profile anti-criminal asset afterall.


nice post maybe you should have thought of that a little sooner := rather than making a bit of a mamory of yourself http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wibble.gif

I have meant that all along, and admit that I perhaps haven't put it in every post Budgie, but my first post did contain the following statement:
Now, my little rant about WMP over - this is an absolute tragedy for us
And yes, I haven't made some of my points particularly well at times, however as others have presented a differing point of view mine has altered in response. Like many others, I am not always 100% right; however unlike others I am prepared to admit that and possibly change my position as I learn. Surely a benefit of an informed debate?

"playing the victim" in it is ever so slightly galling
What on earth does that mean? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif Are they not victims of crime even if (in your opinion) they could have done more to prevent it?

When I watched the video of the senior officer (think Deputy Chief Constable) giving a press statement about the incident I personally found his demeanor to be too skewed to the "we are a victim" argument. However, you are entirely correct they are indeed a victim of crime and are entitled to feel aggrieved about it.

Was that meant to be a sensible comment or were you just trying to provoke a reaction?
In hindsight a bit of both. It has been a comment made to me by several people (non aviators mainly) when talking about the incident. It comes down to public perception - the majority of the population is law abiding and trusts the police. They look to the police for crime prevention advice and rely on them to prevent crime as far as possible.

As everyone else is using hypothetical scenarios to further their case: Would you take security advice from someone who was currently being burgled?

Why is it so important to you to that others agree with you?
It isn't particularly. However, it's very frustrating when you make a point and it is countered with other irrelevant arguments, largely based on provoking an emotional response, and the point you are making goes unanswered.

However, I wonder if perhaps you're allowing the experience you describe to cloud your judgment here.
Quite possibly, its hard for me to objective about my own opinions. However, insinuations have been made that in some way I am engaged in "Plod Bashing" or that I wish the denigrate the excellent work done by the ASU. This is not the case, or at least was not my intention. My concern / grievance is really with the poor security and risk assessment which led to a very expensive public asset being destroyed quite easily.

Unfortunately, some police officers needlessly antagonise members of the public who would otherwise have continued to be staunch supporters.
Precisely. As you will find in most professions I believe. Which is why I have no contention with any single police officer, other than the two who needlessly (in my opinion) wasted my time. I am positive that the vast majority of officers set out with only good intentions and are competent individuals. Of course, I will remain polite to those I encounter as I would any other person, however the actions of the two I encountered have lowered my opinion of the police as a whole. One bad apple and all that...

Now, for those of you thinking that I may be back tracking you are partly right and this post is meant in a conciliatory tone. I may have been overly aggressive and not stated my case in a particularly concise manner initially; and my opinion has changed slightly as a result of this discussion (especially the point about Monarch). However, I retain the belief that in light of the high profile warnings about BHX security, the high profile nature of the ASU and the desire for "retribution" from those who rightly feel the force of the ASU that somebody at WMP has seriously underestimated the risk of this happening.

[jayteeto]

Sorry to drag this one back up again, especially when it is a slightly off topic post!! However the latest on protecting your property!!

Police expert warns drivers not to hide car keys at home... to avoid violent confrontation with burglars | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/motoring/article-1194607/Police-expert-warns-drivers-hide-car-keys-home--avoid-violent-confrontation-burglars.html)

[SASless]

Gee....guess what happens when the scrotes have the weapons and the law deprives the victim's of the right and ability to defend themselves.:ugh:

Sounds like ya'll need to start killing these burglar fellers. Instead of a life sentence....how about a short drop on the end of a strong rope!:ok:

[DrinkGirls]

Another attack that was repelled by the crew..... Nice one boys!!

Liverpool Echo.co.uk - News - Liverpool Local News - Police helicopter attacked at RAF Woodvale (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/10/10/police-helicopter-attacked-at-raf-woodvale-100252-24898625/)


Police helicopter attacked at RAF Woodvale

Oct 10 2009 (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2009/10/10/) By Mark Johnson
A POLICE helicopter was attacked at RAF Woodvale last night.
Just before 10.30pm several men gained entry to the military base where the Force helicopter is stored and damaged the aircraft.
A high speed police chase ensued from Southport to Liverpool city centre as a silver Audi A4 with blacked out windows was seen travelling at high speed along Formby Bypass with a number of people on board.
The car entered the Birkenhead tunnel and was abandoned by the passengers and driver.
At the same time a black Audi S8 left the tunnel at speed headed toward Liverpool city centre. The vehicle was pursued by officers up to Upper Parliament Street and crashed into a police vehicle on Upper Hampton Street.
The police vehicle caught fire as a result of the collision and an officer received slight injuries. Three men, aged 24, 25 and 26, from the vehicle were arrested at the scene. Officers on duty prevented a number of offenders from seriously
damaging the aircraft.
Other officers quickly arrived on the scene and the offenders left having caused slight damage to the helicopter. As a precautionary measure Merseyside Fire and Rescue attended the scene. No one was injured during the incident.
A Mitsubishi Shogun, believed to have been used by the offenders, was later found burnt out on Moore Lane, Altcar. Following this incident the Birkenhead tunnel was closed to allow an extensive search by officers.
Superintendent Jonathan Roy, said: "Officers from Merseyside Police have launched a far reaching investigation after the force helicopter was
targeted last night.
"The prompt response by police officers and aircrew and recently enhanced security measures prevented this from becoming a more serious incident.
"In addition outstanding action by all the officers involved resulted in the arrest of three men without injury to any member of the public.
"We are determined to bring all offenders involved in this matter to justice and investigators will leave no stone unturned in so doing.
"Members of the community we serve and members of the criminal fraternity should take note that highly effective air support was maintained throughout last night's operation and I must reassure you that the effective provision of air support to the county of Merseyside is still in
place and will be maintained."
All of the men arrested remain in custody at this time and enquiries are ongoing. The Queensway Tunnel remains closed whilst the abandoned vehicle is removed and the other abandoned vehicles have been recovered and are being forensically examined.
Officers are appealing for anyone with information to call Merseyside Police on 0151 709 6010 or Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.

[Ian Corrigible]

And yet another, this time on the Merseyside ASU EC135 at RAF Woodvale: Police pursue helicopter vandals (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/8300873.stm).

At least it sounds like they got the scrotes this time round, despite the attempt at a Ronin-style getaway.

I/C

Police pursue helicopter vandals


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46528000/jpg/_46528059_39504299.jpg Police believe the gang changed cars in the tunnel

Vandals who tried to destroy a police force helicopter were then pursued across Merseyside, resulting in a police car going up in flames.
The gang had managed to break into RAF Woodvale in Southport before fleeing in a Mitsubishi Shogun on Friday night.
Officers followed the offenders, who they think used at least three cars in the pursuit, which ended in Liverpool.
The police car caught fire after colliding with one of the cars the suspects were thought to have used.
Three men have been arrested.
A Merseyside Police spokesman said the first car involved in the chase from the airfield was a Mitsubishi Shogun, which was later found burnt out on Moore Lane, Altcar.
A short time later a silver Audi A4 with blacked out windows was seen travelling at high speed along Formby bypass with a number of people on board.
Officers tracked and pursued the vehicle from Southport to Liverpool city centre.
The car then entered the Queensway tunnel where it was abandoned.
At about the same time another vehicle, a black Audi S8, left the tunnel at speed in the direction of Liverpool city centre. Police believe the suspects changed vehicles in the tunnel.
The Audi was then pursued by officers to Upper Parliament Street. The two vehicles crashed in Upper Hampton Street, where the police car went up in flames and an officer suffered minor injuries.
Supt Jonathan Roy said: "Officers from Merseyside Police have launched a far-reaching investigation after the force helicopter was targeted on Friday night."
All of the men arrested remained in custody and police said enquiries were ongoing.
The Queensway Tunnel remaied closed while the abandoned vehicle was removed. The other abandoned vehicles have been recovered and are being forensically examined.

[Droopy]

A fairly routine night in Merseyside then.

[tigerfish]

This must surely be yet more evidence to show just how effective today's Police helicopters are in the fight against crime. The scroats are taking more and more risks to remove and counter the greatest threat to their activities.

We need to take stock and formulate effective plans to protect these resources. That does NOT mean reducing their numbers and restricting their hours, - as the bean counters seem to want to do.

Its ironic that the bean counters appear to be a more effective way of hampering the fight against crime than these criminals are!

Tigerfish

Aka - "Ol Grumpy"

[JTobias]

All,

For such a determined effort by the scumbags (3 cars I believe) I have to pose the question, were they involved in planning something bigger, and therefore trying to take the chopper out of action?

Just a thought..........

[airborne_artist]

were they involved in planning something bigger, and therefore trying to take the chopper out of action?


Sounds like it. Hardly vandalism by some bored kids....

[jayteeto]

They are going to have to try harder than that!! We have cover from other forces in place whatever happens to our cab.

[JTobias]

Jayteeto,

We knew that the force would have cover, its just that these thick to**sers don't realise it. I hope that there is a mandatory 10 year minimum prison sentence for attacks on emergency service aircraft?

In fact on any emergency service vehicle?

Joel:ok:

[jayteeto]

Just an update for everyone, a few more details released to the press. We are receiving a lot of phone calls today and to be honest there is not a lot more that we will be able to tell you that isn't here. The latest is that we will be up and running again well before the end of the week as reported. :ok:

Liverpool Daily Post.co.uk - Attack on Merseyside Police helicopter sparks high-speed chase through Liverpool (http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2009/10/12/attack-on-merseyside-police-helicopter-sparks-high-speed-chase-through-liverpool-92534-24906592/)


A GANG tried to torch the Merseyside Police helicopter, sparking a 16-mile, high-speed chase through Liverpool.

The window of the £2.9m Eurocopter was smashed and petrol poured inside.

The pursuit which followed left one police officer injured, a patrol car in flames and the Birkenhead tunnel closed.

The attack at RAF Woodvale, in Formby, means the helicopter is grounded.

Air cover is being provided by another force while it is repaired, but officers hope it will be back in action by the end of the week.

The aircraft was attacked just before 10.30pm on Friday.

A Mitsubishi Shogun, believed to have been used by the gang, was later found burned out in Moore Lane, Altcar.

A silver Audi A4 with blacked-out windows was also seen travelling at high speed along the Formby bypass with a number of people on board.

The car was driven into the Birkenhead tunnel and abandoned.

At the same time, a black Audi S8 left the tunnel at speed heading toward Liverpool city centre. The car was followed by officers into Upper Parliament Street, in Toxteth.

The Audi crashed into a police vehicle in nearby Upper Hampton Street.

The police vehicle caught fire and an officer suffered slight injuries.

Three men, aged 24, 25 and 26, were arrested at the scene.

They were quizzed and released on police bail pending further inquiries.

The Birkenhead tunnel was closed while the abandoned Audi was removed.

It was re-opened at 2pm on Saturday.

Superintendent Jonathan Roy, of Merseyside Police, said: “Officers have launched a far-reaching investigation after the force helicopter was targeted.

The prompt response by police officers and aircrew, and recently enhanced security measures, prevented this from becoming a more serious incident.

In addition, outstanding action by all the officers involved resulted in the arrest of three men without injury to any member of the public.

We are determined to bring all offenders involved in this matter to justice and investigators will leave no stone unturned in so doing.

Members of the community we serve and members of the criminal fraternity should take note that highly effective air support was maintained throughout the operation, and the effective provision of air support to Merseyside is still in place and will be maintained.”

The other abandoned vehicles were recovered and are being forensically examined.

Police said it was too soon to say whether security at Woodvale would have to be stepped up.

A spokesman also denied reports shots were fired during the chase.

Anyone with information should call Merseyside Police on 0151-709 6010.

Alternatively, call Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555111.

[volrider]

The latest is that we will be up and running again well before the end of the week as reported
Brilliant news Jayteeto.
:ok:

[volrider]

Another Police a/c has been attacked and damaged
Airpolice, any details?

[MightyGem]

Yes please. Google doesn't show anything.

[jim63]

Might be worth a try to see if anything about it is on this site.
Police Helicopter Pilot - The Police Helicopter News Page (http://www.policehelicopterpilot.com/)

(EDIT)This might be the article
UK Gypsies Trash Police Helicopter Valued At 5 Million Pounds
Several newspapers in the UK are reporting that a group of gypsies, upset at being surveilled by the local police helicopter, climbed into a secure area and attacked the helicopter with axes.
The Gypsies or "travellers" as they are sometimes called, and their remote campsite, was the subject of a theft and stolen property investigation wherein the police helicopter was used to gather evidence from the air.
The incident occurred yesterday evening around 10pm local time, after the gang climbed a 4' wall at the police forces helipad at Fairoaks Airport near Woking. The helicopter, a twin engine EC 135, belonged to the Surrey Police Department. It is the only helicopter owned or operated by the department.
Surrey is a county in the south east of England and borders Greater London, Kent East and West Sussex, Hampshire and Berkshire. The county has an abundance of mature woodland, which is perhaps why the band of Gypsies was camped there.
Reports are that most of the damage was to the helicopter's windows, and that it should return to service in about two weeks.

[SilsoeSid]

Not quite Jim. The article is dated Thursday, May 14, 2009 at 01:41PM and that incident is coverd earlier on this thread.

Shame the article couldn't find a picture of a UK 135. :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

I'm thinking this is another reported laser attack and someone was a bit bored yesterday afternoon! :rolleyes:

In the meantime;

Two police helicopter pilots attacked in San Antonio
Two police helicopter pilots attacked in San Antonio | san, police, antonio - Local News - (http://www.kfdm.com/news/san-36951-police-antonio.html)

Authorities say two men have been arrested after allegedly attacking two police helicopter pilots at a San Antonio gas station, which led to one of the attackers being shot in the arm by an officer.

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Hey Mighty,

Do you think when the plot is put to some sort of Film, they might use you boys to play the part of Actors, but who will be sucking the lollipop,
sounds like a Michael Winner sort of plot

vfr
Peter B:D

[Coconutty]

More details to follow during Monday dayshift.

Did the shift get cancelled :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[volrider]

Did the shift get cancelled

No just the details:}

[Fortyodd2]

Strathclyde police need their @rse's kicking! :ugh::ugh::ugh:



"Almost £40,000 worth of damage"

(If ECUK are fixing it that's probably one small map reading lamp and re hanging the door!)

[handysnaks]

It isn't owned by Strathclyde Police, it's owned by Bond!

[Clydeport]

This is a rumour network. However, apart from his first sentence every single thing Airpolice said was factually incorrect.:=

Minimal damage to a door and no ransacking done.

Case been heard and dealt with in court.

Interestingly as handysnaks points out, nothing really to do with Stathclyde Police. If the aircraft had been badly damaged or destroyed as in previous more serious cases, Strathclyde Police would have had a fully specced EC135T2+ replacement in 12hrs. With no impact on the taxpayers investment.

[Fortyodd2]

"Nothing to do with Strathclyde police"

Really? Who was it leased to and for what purpose? Who provided the crew? Who was responsible for it's security?

"no impact on the taxpayers investment"

If you can't take better care of your "taxpayers investment" you may find that your "Taxpayers" may have to "invest" considerably more in the future.

[SilsoeSid]

How secure is YOUR helicopter?

Any unit that is leaving their aircraft unattended day or night, regardless of alarms cameras etc. needs a serious Guy Fawkes party up their bottom on a par with the millennium celebrations! Especially if I was one of the taxpayers paying for it ;)

Just how many hints do you need?

[Clydeport]

Fortyodd2, SilsoeSid,

Neither of you seem to understand the leasing idea.

Strathclyde Police are leasing the capability not the airframe.

Therefore if the airframe is not available due to routine maintenance, unscheduled maintenance or damage, either criminal or otherwise then another fully specced EC135T2+ airframe is provided.

Clever eh. The taxpayer is paying for the lease and always has a police helicopter on line. I'm happy with that as a tax payer.

Also I would contend that any ASU that is keeping its helicopter in a hangar between jobs is not providing the service I as a tax payer expect

[jayteeto]

Clydeport, as an ex-pilot from one of the attacked units, I feel that I m qualified to comment. What others mean, is that if an aircraft was lost, next years costs would go up, so you WOULD end up paying the price. The next question of aircraft in or out? Of course we ALL want the aircraft out, but at what price? The leasing company would not provide a security team standing 24/7 next to the helicopter and that is the only option other than hangaring the asset. Unless of course, your constabulary would be prepared to provide a point guard. THAT, of course costs cold hard cash. It is not feasible for the crew to be next to it all day.

[Pan Euro]

"Also I would contend that any ASU that is keeping its helicopter in a hangar between jobs is not providing the service I as a tax payer expect"


Clydeport, Is there not a difference between putting an aircraft away at night when you all go home and putting it away between sorties? At least those that do put them away look after them!:ugh:

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Also I would contend that any ASU that is keeping its helicopter in a hangar between jobs is not providing the service I as a tax payer expect


Where did you think that load of cr*p from then
:mad:

[500e]

I do not know about liability regarding helicopter lease but if hired\leased equipment IS insured, the cost is high, on small plant a lot of hirers don't, and try and recover from hirer.
We hire a large amount electronic equipment, there is a clause in our hire agreement that "The hirer is responsible for loss or damage other than through normal use" This is allways pointed out at time of hire, & on delivery\ collection.
So either the cost is built in as self insurance or via an insurance Co.(Very Costly) or the hirer bears the cost, it has to be one or the other ??.

[Sulley]

putting the aircraft away after each flight will obviously mean that your response time is greater. so I guess from the above comments john q taxpayer wants his air support instantly if not sooner ! Can't respond if its damaged ,can but slower if not, take your pick.Only other consideration is how likely is it to be attacked.If you want the response time AND safety its going to cost john q taxpayer more for the added security at which point he'd probably accept the slower response time.

[SilsoeSid]

Clyde,

I am quite happy with the leasing principle thanks, the clue being that I made no reference to it in my post. :rolleyes:

Also I would contend that any ASU that is keeping its helicopter in a hangar between jobs is not providing the service I as a tax payer expect

Absolute ignorance Clyde.
1. One units reaction time is in fact quicker now that the ac is in the hangar.
2. Certainly all of the most recent 'larger attacks' happened when the aircraft were outside a manned location, (I think that is the case for all)

I suspect that there may be some insurance claim 'issues' that the tax payer may have to pick up regardless of 'ownership' should reasonable steps not be taken.
Much like a frosty mornings car theft insurance claim! (I refer to '2' above!)


Strathclyde Police*-*Air Support Unit (http://www.strathclyde.police.uk/index.asp?locID=100&docID=-1)
The Air Support Unit is based at the City Heliport, next to the Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre (SECC) in Glasgow. This location is ideal for providing the best air support coverage for the Strathclyde Police area, some 5,348 square miles, with more coastlines than France.,

Looking at google maps, people in glass houses, should wear dressing gowns!.... :eek:

[SilsoeSid]

I guess Clyde is used to picking figures, juggling words etc that suit.


The Air Support Unit is based at the City Heliport, next to the Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre (SECC) in Glasgow. This location is ideal for providing the best air support coverage for the Strathclyde Police area, some 5,348 square miles, with more coastlines than France:confused:
Strathclyde Police is responsible for policing 1,760 miles of coastline and 5,500 square miles of coastal waters in the Force area.
Strathclyde Police*-*Air Support Unit (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.strathclyde.police.uk%2Findex.asp%3Floc ID%3D100%26docID%3D-1&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostr eply%26t%3D376899)
Strathclyde Police*-*Marine Policing (http://www.strathclyde.police.uk/index.asp?locID=572&docID=-1)

France :p
total: 4,668 km metropolitan France: 3,427 km
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2060.html

Considering 'Met France' as only 2 coastlines :rolleyes:
'Met' the whole of Scootland only has one! :E

[Clydeport]

Silsoe,

Well done on your research, but not my quote you quoted :D

Interested to find out how you react quicker from the hanger than walking to the aircraft and starting it up. Some kind of thunderbirds system?

You are obviously not happy with the leasing principal if you think you

'suspect that there may be some insurance claim 'issues' that the tax payer may have to pick up regardless of 'ownership' should reasonable steps not be taken.

- Not so, don't know how many times I have to say it. In this case the tax payer is not involved this would be a Bond problem.

BUDGIE

Got that cr*p from the fact that if its in the hanger response will be slower than if it on the pan. :ok: Not talking about night time or after the hours of darkness. I'm talking about daylight hours.

Some confusion with people here also I think. This incident did not happen at night:=

jayteeto

No increased cost the next year if you are on a 7 year contract. Again the liability would be Bonds, but you should know that now ;)

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

so if i'm wrong and the thunderbird system is broke. Then does a T2 or P2 take a little longer to complete its self test when the master is put on...

So if the pilot gets in while its in the hanger then surely by the time its on the pad it just needs the go button to be pressed. Or you all run out to it together and then sit there like lemons waiting for the self test....mmm same time.

so may be sid is right. response times are getting quicker.....obviously based on how far you need to push the beast to get it on a pad

[Clydeport]

Must be a different self test system to the one I have seen.

Utter nonsense to suggest that the time from switching on the Bat Master until you can start the first engine is longer than the time it takes to get the aircraft out the hanger

and you suggested I was the person talking cr+p

Any 135 drivers care to comment?

[Islandcrazy]

Hey ClydeP,

Are you seriously suggesting that someone isn't going to get their ar@# kicked for letting a member of the public get inside your nice helo? Do you think that your senior officers and members of the public will draw conclusions on the units professionalism if the unit think its "okay" to get their helo attacked and that it's okay if one of the unit's members (if you are) is saying "its fine". Believe me...they do not think its okay and doesnt matter 'cause we'll just get another.

I suspect that your unit UEO will be eating the Chief's carpet sometime soon. Sure he wont be saying its okay. :rolleyes: and if he/she reads your comments you may be too. :=

[nodrama]

In this case, I think that both customer and owner play a part in protecting this a/c.

The police look pretty stupid if they can't protect one of their 'assets' from criminals and, besides the fact that they are the police, they have a responsibility to look after something that they have leased. Bond will want to protect their £ 3m+ property. Also, don't forget (or in case you didn't know) that the pilot is a Bond employee and the crew are policemen.

I would imagine that they are working together to find a solution.....

[TeeS]

I can't help but think that in the same way that Terrorism has won by forcing us to strip off belts, shoes etc. at airport security; the villains will be dead chuffed to see police helicopters grouped together in hangars miles from where they are needed.

That is not to say that the helicopters shouldn't be protected, by lethal force if required :ok:, but don't let the criminals set the game plan.

Cheers

TeeS

[SilsoeSid]

Interested to find out how you react quicker from the hanger than walking to the aircraft and starting it up. Some kind of thunderbirds system?
1. Because before, it was a fair walk to the ac.
2. The self tests and pre start checks can be done while ac is being pushed out that shorter distance.


Not so, don't know how many times I have to say it. In this case the tax payer is not involved this would be a Bond problem.

Wow! A total hand washing exercise. :eek:
A Bond leased aircraft, at a Bond heliport on loan to the Police, who leave the aircraft unlocked, unattended with no security system that provides a reactive force, (hence suspect found by oncoming crew) and absolutely no sense of responsibility for the aircraft. :D :ugh:

If I was Mr Bond, I would be a lot more careful of who I lend my multi million bits of kit to! :=

[SilsoeSid]

Looking at the google maps walk around feature Clyde, I suggest that fence gets sorted before the smoke in the background gets a little closer! :eek:

NO secrets just google;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/glasgowHP.jpg

[Clydeport]

Oh dear I only came on here to set the record straight and point out the none of what Airpolice had said was accurate. And I notice he is still talking out his ar*se when he says the UEO has nothing to do with the aircraft when its not flying.

Yet here is Silsoe still using some of those quotes. The person was not detained by the oncoming crew but by the crew on base who reacted to the intrusion. But never let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Also Silsoe your picture is out of date. The electric fence has been replaced by folding down palm trees that allow the helicopter to take off after the swimming pool in the roof of the hangar has moved out the way. But thanks for the picture anyway.

Anyway got to go now cause the UEO is after me.........or am I the UEO? Maybe I have to get ready to eat the Chiefs carpet........or am I the Chief and am I looking for Silsoe and to come up and take over the unit and sort everything out. :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

ClydeThis is a rumour network. However, apart from his first sentence every single thing Airpolice said was factually incorrect.:=

ClydeOh dear I only came on here to set the record straight and point out the none of what Airpolice had said was accurate.

So which one is it?


Yet here is Silsoe still using some of those quotes.
So you can confirm then that the base is manned 24/7?

How did the intruder get past your high security, unnoticed until after the minor, that could easily have been major, damage was done?

I think I answered your Thunderbird point and dispelled your belief that having the ac hangared, now lessens the reaction time, but if you think palm trees are a good enough defence, remember,

http://www.linksofwisdom.com/wisdom/scissors-beat-paper.jpg

If you are the UEO Clyde and can't see what is being said :eek:
If you are the Chief, I suggest you get the UEO in for a chat about threat indicators and the ignoring thereof :oh:
If you think SilsoeSid would emigrate, how would he then be able to complain about the number of Scotchish in England ;)

[Retro Coupe]

From a reliable source:

"About 0700 hrs on Sunday 21 March 2010 a 17 year male scaled the perimeter fence which surrounds the heliport and entered the air ambulance, no damage or property stolen from air ambulance, he then made his way across the pad and entered the police helicopter. While inside the aircraft he jettisoned both the front doors which fell to the ground causing minor damage to both doors.

Sadly the Pilot had left his life jacket within the aircraft which the male removed and made off with, the jacket contained a STASS bottle, personal locator beacon and day/night signal distress flare.

Having initially made off from the base he activated the flare and was attempting to activate the PLB without success. The Police crew of the aircraft then discovered the damage to the aircraft at which point they observed the male climbing back into the base!

The male was under the influence of drink and drugs. All stolen property was recovered albeit in a state and requiring replaced.

He was duly apprehended and kept in custody, he appeared at Glasgow Sheriff Court on Monday 22 March, pled guilty to vandalism and not guilty to the theft of the life jacket. This was accepted by the court."

[SilsoeSid]

Come on RC, I know it's early, but do really expect us to rise to that one?

[Sulley]

before you continue to have a pop at our northern cousins. You should first find out if there was any police presence there at the reported time. I would suggest that there wasn't. (outside of their shift time).If you put the aircraft away after each flight, for safety, it follows you have to shut the hangar doors else what's the point. If you then have to open the doors wheel out your aircraft and then start it you will take longer than if you just walked out to it. It has to surely :eek:

[SilsoeSid]

In addition to the earlier answers Sulley, if you think about it;

Instead of walking to the aircraft doing nothing but walking to the aircraft, if you were to move with the aircraft to the LP and allow the aircraft to go through its test sequence and then you do the pre start checks, as soon as you arrive at the LP you can start the engines.

Instead of walking to the ac at the LP, then waiting for the self test procedure, then FADEC test, then pre starts, then you can eventually start up, surely you can see that is both quicker and more secure.
:ok:

[nodrama]

surely you can see that is both quicker and more secure


More secure yes. Quicker, I'm not so sure. My 135 just went out on a job....filthy weather outside, not the sort of thing you want to be moving the aircraft in and out of the hangar in. From pilot leaving his desk to skids off...just under 2 minutes. You couldn't tow the aircraft outside, remove the tow, shut the doors (and keep dry) and start up in that time.

Just a real time observation.

[Clydeport]

Silsoe,

You really are very pedantic. I had a nightmare last night that I was back a Navy boarding school and Crab was the headmaster and you were the English teacher.

Anyway, Only Airpolice's first point in post #220 'Someone climbed the fence and jettisoned the door of the 135'. Was factual.

Yes the base is manned 24/7
Yes the aircraft goes in the hangar at night
Yes Police on duty at the time of the incident.

Also got to agree with Nodrama we could not possible get airborne quicker from the hangar. But I suppose it depends how far you have to tow your aircraft. If its parking spot is outside the hangar which seems sensible and what most people do, then unless you are doing you checks differently from everyone else, I agree from getting in to ready to take off 2mins easy.

Finally you could come up here, there are plenty of English people here, they run all the teashops in tourist locations:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Silsoe,
You really are very pedantic.

Oh reilly !
I could be a bit more pedantic, it wouldn't be pretty though, bearing in mind earlier where you said here; http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/376899-another-attack-police-helicopter-6.html#post5603103

"Must be a different self test system to the one I have seen."
and
"Any 135 drivers care to comment?"

However, I have some better gems than that to refer to.

As I said before, people in glass houses should wear dressing gowns.

[SilsoeSid]

ND;
My 135 just went out on a job....filthy weather outside, not the sort of thing you want to be moving the aircraft in and out of the hangar in.
Pinch of salt taken!
:eek:

[Sulley]

Silsoe -nah not having that :) I have to walk the same distance from ops to the aircraft as i do to the hangar. Add the fact that the hangar doors have to be opened it just ain't possible to get airbourne quicker from the hangar.:ok:

[Yonez]

silsoe

After reading majority of this thread i can only conclude that you:

Will go to any length to prove your misguided judgment to be correct.
Are Probably a retired Mil QHI.
Run a papershop on coronation street.

Or is it the case that you are a police heli pilot, who tells the on duty pc's that you have to sit in the ac as they pull it out, so you can complete checks, to enable you to be airborne quicker.
SH!T£!!!!!!!

The ac will never be quicker into the air if its position at start is in the hangar.

[Retro Coupe]

The ac will never be quicker into the air if its position at start is in the hangar.
Correct. We've been hangaring our aircraft during the hours of darkness ever since the West Midlands incident and its a pain in the a**e. The only good thing at this time of year is that it remains frost free. If its lashing down with rain you enter the cockpit with soaked clothes with the potential for codensation, and I know for a fact that the extra time taken to drag the aircraft out of the hangar has lost us a couple of pursuits. As for the self test, it doesn't take that long and if you put the master battery switch on as soon as you enter the cockpit it's all but done by the time your helmet is plugged in and the harness has been secured.

[nodrama]

its a pain in the a**e.

If its lashing down with rain you enter the cockpit with soaked clothes

has lost us a couple of pursuits.


it's all but done by the time your helmet is plugged in and the harness has been secured.


Finally! A post from experience.