Russian Overflights by RAF Crews during the "Cold War"

[VIProds]

I have been researching Russian overflights by RAF crews during the Cold War and have identified the names of 29 Aircrew that have been involved in deep penetration flights.

North American RB-45C
11 Aircrew that converted to the RB-45C and "borrowed" four aircraft (one spare) at Sculthorpe in Norfolk and completed two seperate night time missions, one in April 1952 and the other in April 1954.

English Electric Canberra B2./PR7.
7 Aircrew involved in a modified Canberra that flew a daring daytime mission from Giebelstsdt in West Germany to the missile testing sites at Kapustin Yar, South East of Stalingrad, then on to Iran.

Lockheed U-2.
11 RAF Pilots that converted to U-2's & were checked out at "Area 51" in the Navada Desert between 1958 & 1967.

For some reason, successive British Governments have declined to confirm that these flights took place, even though the Americans have confirmed it & the Russian Military have confirmed that they had tracked just about every penetration flight.

Most of these Aircrew will now be well into their 80's. It would be such a shame if their deeds of bravery got lost in the mists of time. If there are any members out there, that know about any of these Gentlemen or have any details, no matter how small, would you please post it, or if you feel uncomfortable with that, then please PM me.

[the_tartanterror]

Hi there
Can help you with some details, let me have your email address

[barnstormer1968]

There is a book on this very subject (although heavily covering U.S. flights) that is a superb read. It is "By any means necessary". Sadly I do not have it to hand at the moment, so cannot list the ISBN number, but am sure is is on amazon or similar.

This book covers RAF flights, and how some crews realised their flight plan had been given to the soviets in advance!, with the tale tale sign being that anti aircraft guns were actually opening fire ahead of the aircraft on its planned route.
It also covers U.S. SR71 flights, and their associated drones (including at least one which landed in foreign territory).
Sadly it also documents the fate of several crews who were killed, or captured, and their subsequent fate.

Well worth a read, if not always easy reading.

[tonytech2]

I have always wondered, are there any records of similar overflights by Russian aircraft across the UK, Canada or USA? I don't mean the off-shore flights near coastlines, etc and possible short penetrations of Alaska or Canada but the bold, deep ones as mentioned above..

[EODFelix]

Also a good read - though again heavily US focused is Paul Lashmar's "Spy Flights of the Cold War" ISBN 0 7509 1183 2

[VIProds]

Many thanks Barnstormer. Yes it was John Crampton who experienced the AA flack. They opened up just as he was approacing Kiev on the Sothern route. MI6 suspected that Kim Philbey passed on the height & route to the Soviets.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have always wondered, are there any records of similar overflights by Russian aircraft across the UK, Canada or USA? I don't mean the off-shore flights near coastlines, etc and possible short penetrations of Alaska or Canada but the bold, deep ones as mentioned above..

Tony, I am not aware of any publication covering UK. I am aware however of deviating 'civil' aircraft straying off airways and their potential for reconnaisance.

I was intrigued at a nuclear weapons storage site that there was a number of small buildings with specially shaped flat roofs. I was told that this was to cast a shadow like a tree as the presence of such small buildings near the main bunkers would give a clue as to how the nuclear weapons worked.

As these buildings were built in the 50s I think we can conclude that 'yes they did, and we knew it.'

[VIProds]

None that I know of Tonytech2. What with Filingdales in Yorkshire, Greenland & the"Dew Line" we had them tagged well before they got near & would send up a welcoming party.

The only time that I know of is when the USAF & the RAF had joint execises. We sent three Vulcans over the North pole & three other Vulcans approached down the East Coast of the States. They all had Electronic Counter Measures activated & were undetected much to the consternation of the Chiefs of Staff !

Give our American Cousins their due, once they realised that they had a problem, they threw everything at it until it was fixed. We probably shared our thechnology, as we did when we invented Radar & sent over a "magnetron" for the US to develop & when we invented & developed the first Jet engine, which we also shipped over.

Don't get me wrong it wasn't & isn't all one way. We have been privy to many US inventions & developments. Just take Pollaris & Trident to name but a few.

[brickhistory]

Properly, it was a "cavity magnetron," and was the lodestone for centimetric radar development that the UK successfully developed first, but lacked the industrial capacity for quality mass production of the AI sets.

In talking with US radar technicians who serviced Beaufighters (Mk VI w/ Mk IV, later Mk VIII radars) in American night fighter squadrons (414, 415, 416 (who also flew Mosquitos), and 417), the difference in quality and standardization between US and UK produced sets was night and day.

Interestingly, the UK sets could be 'tweaked' to get either longer or shorter range contacts than the American ones.

As for inventions passed back and forth, can we call it a draw since we sent the airplane (not aeroplane) over to you?

(And stored it in London until the 1940s due to a spat between the Wright Brothers and the Smithsonian - they wouldn't totally admit the Wrights were first over Langley and the Wrights wouldn't let the original Wright flyer go to the Museum until the Museum did so.

[caped crusader]

'By Any Means Possible' written by William E Burrows ISBN 0-374-11747-0

[Pontius Navigator]

None that I know of Tonytech2. What with Filingdales in Yorkshire, Greenland & the"Dew Line" we had them tagged well before they got near & would send up a welcoming party.

You are mixing systems. Fylingdales and Thule were a 1960s anti-missile system whereas DEW or Distant Early Warning was against a bomber threat. In UK the GCI and later Bloodhound systems performed the same function.

The early threat was from photo reconnaisance, the same as the RB45 flights. The Soviet method was, as I said, to use deviating airliners. Now of course BEA would never have done that, would they?

The only time that I know of is when the USAF & the RAF had joint execises. We sent three Vulcans over the North pole & three other Vulcans approached down the East Coast of the States. They all had Electronic Counter Measures activated & were undetected much to the consternation of the Chiefs of Staff !

The Vulcans actually flew out of Goose Bay, IIRC, as they certainly did not have the range to attack over the pole. They were not so much undetected as they achieved hard kills against the radar stations I was told. The radars were designed for maximum sensitivity and had no protection circuits to cope with the power output of the carcinotron jammers. Effectively not jammed but burnt out. I suspect the penetration was actually against the mid-Canada Line and not the DEW line.

The backward wave oscillators were demonstrated in 1951, M-type by Bernard Epsztein, (French patent 1,035,379; British patent 699,893; US patent 2,880,355) and O-type by Rudolf Kompfner. The M-type BWO is a voltage-controlled non-resonant extrapolation of magnetron interaction, both types are tunable over a wide range of frequencies by varying the accelerating voltage. They can be swept through the band fast enough to be appearing to radiate over all the band at once, which makes them suitable for effective radar jamming, quickly tuning into the radar frequency. Carcinotrons allowed airborne radar jammers to be highly effective. However, frequency-agile radars can hop frequencies fast enough to force the jammer to use barrage jamming, diluting its output power over a wide band and significantly impairing its efficiency.

[Heimdall]

VIProds

I have written a number of articles about the overflights you are interested in as follows:

Op Ju-Jitsu the RB-45C overflights from Sculthorpe - Op Ju Jitsu (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/scul.htm)

The Canberra overflight of Kapustin Yar -Kapustin Yar (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/yar.htm)

The RAF U-2 overflights by Sqn Ldr Robbie Robinson and Flt Lt John MacArthur - Lockheed U-2 (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/U2.htm)

The overflights from Sculthorpe were denied for many years but are now in the public domain and some years ago John Crampton wrote an excellent article about these sorties for the Aug 1997 edition of Air Pictorial. He also gave a presentation on this topic RAF Historical Societies symposium on Air Intelligence held on 22 March 1996.

The Canberra overflight of Kapustin Yar is still shrouded in mystery. References to the overflight began appearing in US publications in the mid-1960s, mainly based on a history written by Robert Amory who was Deputy Director of the CIA in the 1950s. Additional detail was added by Stewart Alsop in his book about the CIA entitled 'The Centre' published in 1968. Perhaps they knew what had happened or they confused this with Project Robin - Project Robin (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/robin.htm) Despite many people hunting throught numerous de-classified files in the National Archives, nothing confirming that this sortie took place has ever been found. My own view is that it did take place and that, for all sorts of reasons, the entire file was eventually destroyed, but I suspect we will never know the truth unless one of the aircrew involved finally breaks cover.

Although details of the RAF U-2 flights are freely available in many books and Robbie Robinson probably assisted in the article in the 7 Aug 1993 edition of Janes Defence Weekly which described in detail what happended, the official MOD position is much less clear. For reasons best known to someone at the MOD, the file on the RAF U-2 operations has still not been de-classified and the offical position seems to be that these sorties never took place!! John MacArthur was invited to talk to the RAF Historical Sopciety on his days on the U-2, but was unable to obtain approval from his 'minder' at MOD!!

I also suggest you get hold of a copy of 'Spyflights of the Cold War' by Paul Lashmar published by Sutton Publishing Ltd in 1996 ISBN 07509 11832 as this book covers many of these sorties and others, although much more detail is now available elsewhere. Also I recommend you try and read the proceedings of the Early Cold War Overflights symposium held at Bolling AFB, Washington on 22-23 Feb 2001 as the articles cover many fascinating sorties and is an appropriate testimony to the skill and bravery of all those involved.

Heimdall
The Spyflight Website (http://www.spyflight.co.uk)

[VIProds]

I thought that might produce a reaction brickhistory. You are quite right, when I joined the RAF, I was trained on H2S Mk4A which was a 3cm Navigation & Bombing Radar system which used a cavity magnetron & a Klystron to obtain the IF frequency. They were used on wartime Lancaster & Lincoln Bombers.

There was three Lincolns still flying. By the time that I finished the Course, they had fall been flown to Northern Ireland to be scrapped !!

[VIProds]

Many thanks for the info Pontius Navigator. In the Electronics Block, the ECM guys used to keep very much to themselves. It is also very difficult trying to hold a conversation with someone that is in a "Faraday Cage".

[Pontius Navigator]

VIPods,

You will know John Willey then and someone, IIRC called Gilbert? By the time I got to BCBS the Lincolns had gone. Did you do the 12 month course?

[VIProds]

Brilliant Heimdall a great piece of work. I have also read that at the start of 1953 while English Electric were producing the Canberra B2. They had a visit from Richard Bissell, who was the CIA's head in charge of overflights. He asked the boffins if they could make the wings longer in the hope that it would increase the cieling. The boffins were pretty sure that their wing design was nigh on perfect, but arranged for six, more powerful engines to be installed on three of the B2's on the production line. To their amasement the cieling went from 48,000ft to 65,000ft These B2's were WH726, WJ573 & WJ574. They converted all thee to a Photo Reconnaissance roll & installed extra fuel tanks in the bomb bay of WH726. WH726 was flown to Hanscom Field in the US & had the 100inch camera fitted. When they got back to England, they did a trial run up the English Channel & took very high quality photographs of the Streets of London !!

A few reports say that WH726 flew to Kaputin Yar at between 46,000 and 48,000ft. Soviet Air Force Lieutenant Mikhail Shulga was vectored to intercept the Canberra & stated that he was flying at 48,000ft & could see the Canberra several thousand feet above him but his Mig-15 was stalling. He said "and nothing came of it". Some other reports say that WH726 was shot at & hit, but this seems to dispell that. I also think that the Canberra was flying at 60,000ft or more. A Russian defector, who in 1953 served as an Air Defence Operator recalls that the Canberra incedent was an absolute farce as some Mig-15's were incorrectly vectored and the Pilots were confused and started firing at each other.

[VIProds]

I don't rcognise those names, Pontius Navigator. After the mechanics training at No2 Radio School at Yatesbury I was posted to RAF Debden in Essex where the Lincolns were supposed to be. Yes I went back to Yatesbury for the 1year Technicians Course where I leared Orange Putter, Red Steer, Gee III, Green Satin, Rad Alt, IFF & TACAN.

[pzu]

Just ordered from Amazon (seller)

NEW cost £0.01 (YES 1p) + £2.75 p&p

PZU - Out of Africa (retired)

[XV277]

It's also worth getting hold of a copy of the video of the Timewatch program that Paul Lashmar produced - thsi was the first public confirmation that the 'British' RB-45s were used in overflight operations. Some interesting interviews with the some of the crew members.

The CIA history of the U2 is avalalble on their website, but all mention of the UK operations is redacted out (at the behest of HMG)

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/the-cia-and-the-u-2-program-1954-1974/index.htm

It also mentions the Kapustin Yar operation

[Double Zero]

I happen to know someone who was on Lincolns, Washingtons etc. Then on UK civilian flights over Russian territory ( known as the ' Getting Lost Squadron ' ) he'd be invited to the cockpit, instead he'd descend to the bowels of the aircraft with a camera.

I don't know how they got around pressurisation, presumably a mask; I take it modern Nav-aids make the excuse even less plausible, and such practices may have led to the tragic downing of the Korean 747, whether it was involved or not.

[Pontius Navigator]

DoubleZero, in those days BEA flew unpresurised aircraft. IIRC, the Viscount was one of its first pressurised aircraft.

[caped crusader]

I seem to recall from reading Chuck Yaeger's autobiography that he accompanied Jackie Cochran on an overflight of Soviet territory, where he claimed they deviated from route and took some interesting photographs.

[VIProds]

Cheers PZU. I have also purchased one for 1p !!! There are still quite a few left Guys.

[VIProds]

XV277

Yes, I saw that programme. It is that Documentary that started me on my quest to find out more. Last month, I was invited to give a talk to the North Lincolnshire Air Crew Association (really smashing group of Gentlemen), about Air to Air TACAN flight trials that I was involved in with 55 & 57Sqdn at Marham. They have very kindly invited me back this month as their speaker, Arthur Creighton is going to give a talk on "the Canberra Bomber", so hopefully he might be able to shed more light on any overflights. If there is anything interesting, I will keep you informed.

[Beancountercymru]

This is also covered in High Cold War by Robert Jackson ISBN 1 85260 584 7

[814man]

Just to go back to PNs post at #7, examples of these strange shaped roofs can be seen here:
Flickr: 814man's Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sd814)
which are a series of images I took during a survey of old nuclear storage sites in 2001. There are existing examples shown from Honington, Marham, Waddington and Wittering. There were no such buildings constructed at Scampton, whilst due to its current use I was unable to take pictures of the ones at Faldingworth, although I can confirm there was actually the largest concentration of them at over 20, most other sites having only 2 or 3. At Barnham for some reason all the same use buildings had normal square shaped roofs as can be seen.
My understanding was that although those looking would have a pretty good idea of the use of the site, due to what was stored in these specific buildings their number would provide a good indication of the number of weapons stored at the site.

[moggiee]

'By Any Means Possible' written by William E Burrows ISBN 0-374-11747-0
Just to correct a minor point, it's "By any mean NECESSARY" not possible.

[barnstormer1968]

Originally by me actually:E
There is a book on this very subject (although heavily covering U.S. flights) that is a superb read. It is "By any means necessary". Sadly I do not have it to hand at the moment, so cannot list the ISBN number, but am sure is is on amazon or similar.

moggiee
Quote:
Originally Posted by caped crusader http://static.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/376693-russian-overflights-raf-crews-during-cold-war-post4979164.html#post4979164)
Just to correct a minor point, it's "By any mean NECESSARY" not possible. Yesterday 23:54

With regard to the above post, I had wondered if the book had been re- published with a different title, as I distinctly remembered it being "necessary"

Further on the subject of special Canberra's, the "great planes" series of videos do a good video (IMHO) titled "Martin B57 Canberra". This video/DVD partly covers the U.S. "spy" Canberra's with larger span wings, and then their second lease of life with even greater span wings fitted.

[green granite]

By Any Means Necessary: America's Secret Air War in the Cold War By William E. Burrows (http://www.2think.org/byanymeans.shtml)

[caped crusader]

moggiee

Thanks for the correction. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

Regards

CC

[ShortFatOne]

Barnstormer et al.

Was fortunate enough to be at Ellington Field in 1998 for an airshow (Nimrod display) and whilst waiting for nothing in particular, just happened to do that 'British Officer I can go anywhere I fancy' thing. I wandered into one of the NASA hangars and was confronted by the most weirdly beautiful aircraft I think I have ever seen. Not sure if it was an RB-45 or the B57 variant, but it had much longer wings than a standard 'Berra' and larger engines and painted white with black flashing. I didn't hang around as a Master Chief was zeroed in on me and I scarpered before it got complicated!

[Green Flash]

SFO - maybe a Cosmic Harvester?

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/49586main_wb_2.jpg

[barnstormer1968]

Lucky you. I would love to see one in the flesh (it's the spotter in me).
Rightly or wrongly I developed an affection for Canberra's when I was an air cadet, during an annual camp at RAF Wyton.

Even recently, while working at Kemble airfield, I was desperate to go and check out the Canberra on the other side of the airfield (Oh, and the Buccaneer too)


Green Flash. Top picture:ok:

[VIProds]

814Man

I understand that a Munitions Company has taken over at Faldingworth and that the locals are up in arms because of the loud bangs that go off at all times of the day.

When I was stationed at Honington, if I had the go in for "night flying", I would have to pass Barnham which in the middle of nowhere. I always had this uneasy feeling that I was being watched. One night I decided to stop the car on that stretch of road and within seconds I was lit up like a Christmas tree from searchlights coming from the facility. You can still see the four observation towers on the perimeter and the very large assembly buildings at: 52 23 08.74N 0 43 11.99E on Google World.

[andyy]

The book, "Blind Mans Buff" about US (and some UK) submarine int gathering ops is also a very good read.

[814man]

When I visited Faldingworth back in 2001 there was a BAe testing “facility” which was in operation and was the reason for the tight security around the whole site and the escort who would only allow me to photograph certain areas. Most of this can now be seen on Google as it uses parts of the old nuclear storage area and buildings.

At Barnham the old nuclear storage site has been in civilian hands for many years and has total open access. I again last visited in 2001 but you could walk around (even go up the towers if you were feeling brave as they were looking a bit worse for wear) and go into the storage buildings which are now split up into small industrial units inside. Lots of photos on the web link from earlier post if you are interested. You may have been seeing the RAF accommodation and training site at Barnham which is close by, just adjacent to the A134, and which certainly back then was occupied and patrolled by RAF Regt.

[BEagle]

The book, "Blind Mans Buff" about US (and some UK) submarine int gathering ops is also a very good read.

Puts me in mind of a tale in the early post-perestroika days:

At some cockers P or other, mates are in conversation with some ex-Sov. Mil type. During the conversation, mate discloses that he lived in South Devon. "Ah - a very pretty part of England", remarked the Sov. Mate then askes how he knew that, given that there were big restrictions on where he could travel when in the UK.

"Was not a problem. You see, I was on submarines" came the reply....

[andyy]

OK, it works both ways. I had a CO who had "driven" both N subs and a Frigate. As CO of the Frigate he visited Murmansk for some Artic Convoy memorial with various senior people on board. The Rusian Pilot is reported to have commented that "Captain, it must be strange coming in to Murmansk after all these years". The reply was "Oh, its not so strange, I have been here before, although I didn't need a pilot on board to show me the way before".

I know this is an aviation forum so I'll just clarify that the "pilot" in this instance is a navigational specialist & does not wear "wings".

[JEM60]

I seem to recall having recently read that none other than Geoff Wellum
[author of the magnificent 'First Light] was involved in early post war spy flights over USSR in Washingtons. Can't remember the title tho'

[SirToppamHat]

Oh how things change. Since 2001 there have been Open Skies Treaty missions flying all over Russia taking as many pictures as we like. In fact we have a Team heading up towards the Kola Peninsula as I write, and its only a few weeks since we were over Sakhalin Island and the Kamchatka Peninsula.

Oh and yes, they do exactly the same over the UK. That's what those Op GREENFINCH (UNCLAS!) signals are about - but I have yet to work out why they almost always want to fly over at least one of the London Airports!

As a 'Cold War Warrior', I have to say it's really strange to walk into Red Square for the first time with a bunch of Russians, especially military officers!

Back to 814man, did any of those 'tree' buildings contain these?:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/Dsc00310verysmall.jpg?t=1244576812

STH

[ShortFatOne]

Green flash,

Thanks v.much. That is definitely what I came face to face with at Ellington. A very impressive beast from 10 feet away!

Cheers

SFO

[814man]

STH
Yes most still had the lead lined storage holders in them, even when they had been put to other uses, and including the disused ones at Barnham. On active units because of the security combination lock on the doors the buildings were often still being used. At Wittering on the ASU site we were using the ones there until we left in 2002 for ammunition. However one complete example was dug up and removed by AWE to go to their museum at Aldermaston.
Other than single ones in the floor of the tree roofed buildings the only other examples of these floor depositories I came across was in the disused site at Scampton where a single larger building had some 6 or 8 in it if I recall.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Perhaps less well known is that the USAFE carried out a number of overflights of the Warsaw Bloc in 1955 & 1956.

These were shallow penetrations using three RF-100As based at Biturg who relied on speed flying in at 50,000 feet with afterburner and also six RF-57As based at Rhein Main who relied on flying high for safety. It is thought there were about 6 RF-100A and between 15 to 20 RB-57As overflights.

Of course it quite possible that the RAF, using its equivalent of the RB-57, could have carrried out its own overflights but I cannot supply any evidence to support this thesis.

[Pontius Navigator]

Of course it quite possible that the RAF, using its equivalent of the RB-57, could have carrried out its own overflights but I cannot supply any evidence to support this thesis.

I was told in the early 60s by an ex-meteor nav that this was a not uncommon occurrence.

Either a Canberra or Victor would 'stray' over the border, do its thing and leg it back before the Sov fighters could catch them. The meteors etc would all be scrambled in response. At the time they didn't know but their job was to 'delouse' the Canberra or Victor by stopping the Sv fighters at the border.

[Tankertrashnav]

What with Filingdales in Yorkshire, Greenland & the"Dew Line" we had them tagged well before they got near & would send up a welcoming party.



The scene - NATO exercise over the North Sea, c1975. Self in tanker on CAP getting slightly bored.

Northern Radar "(c/s) look in your 2 o'clock, friendly traffic on a reciprocal heading, slightly low, will pass clear"

Captain, "Roger, looking, will report visual"

Nav Radar (self) looks out of little window by left shoulder (I'm facing backwards remember) and sees two Soviet Badger bombers pass by in exactly the position predicted by Northern Radar. Reports to captain.

Captain. "Contact the traffic. Define "friendly" please?"

Had them tagged? Well not always!

[mike1964]

I understand that Pembrokes (and perhaps other liaison types) flying into/out of Berlin during the Cold War were used for surreptitious reconnaisance.

[Pontius Navigator]

The berlin corridors were established during the blockade and were at heights and speeds commensurate with Yorks, Dakotas and Lancastrians of the time. These became set in concrete with a tacit agreement not to rock the boat.

The corridors were what the allies established and the Russians didn't prevent. I don't know if the agreement was then formalised.

From time to time however a corridor would be closed for dangerous air activity. This was ignored as a matter of principle and aircraft would follow the corridor track but below the corridor height.

On one such day we were in a Dominie at 4000 feet and routed directly over Mahwinkel, supposedly the largest helicopter base in Europe with over 100 hind and other types. I saw not a single helo. This pretty close to the wall coming down.

[Gainesy]

Barnstormer
Lucky you. I would love to see one in the flesh (it's the spotter in me).


They still operate from Mildenhall from time to time. There was one there for a few weeks last year, keep an eye on the spotter's sites.

Remember pulling out a very heavy lump of something from one of those holes in the floor at the Wittering ASU once; it had a T-handle embedded in it. GRSF Chap wanted to calibrate a geiger counter with it, but had a wrist in plaster so went along to help.

[kenparry]

The berlin corridors were established during the blockade and were at heights and speeds commensurate with Yorks, Dakotas and Lancastrians of the time. These became set in concrete with a tacit agreement not to rock the boat.

The corridors were what the allies established and the Russians didn't prevent. I don't know if the agreement was then formalised.

I think you will find they pre-date the blockade. My understanding is they were established in 1945 under 4-power agreement. Certainly they had a top altitude of around FL100 right up to the time of their demise at the end of the Cold War. Any change would have needed the agreement of the same 4 powers, and of course the FO would not ask because the inevitable refusal would have offended them. During the 80s I flew the centre corridor frequently on trooping flights to Gatow - very interesting - especially for my copilot one day, who got a clear view of a place that had been of earlier operational interest to him!

[Pontius Navigator]

Thanks Ken.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Its said that the RAF operated a Vickers Valetta which regularly flew along the corridors armed with cameras placed at an angle to photo into East Germany and 192 Squadron used a Varsity in the corridors to train its signals specialists.

It was in these corridors that the RAF suffered a cold war loss when MiG fighters shot down a Lincoln in 1953 which was on "routine training flight" (RAF) or had "penetrated 75 miles into East Germany" (Soviet source). It has been alleged that this flight was used to provoke Soviet defences to gauge their reaction but who knows. This incident has been mentioned in a previous Prune thread in 2003 from which I quote Archimedes

I found the reference to the Lincoln being armed - it was in Tony Geraghty's history of Brixmis. The Brixmis team that went out to the crash site was, apparently, convinced that the guns were loaded, and that the BOI report (which blamed the navigator for getting lost) was inaccurate. Subtext being that the affil ex was just a cover.

This, of course, doesn't mean that the Brixmis team got it right (for instance, the Russians might have been tempted to doctor the crash site by introducing 20mm ammo to the scene... - 'We are very sorry, comrade, but you will understand that once the aircraft fired at our fighter...') - but it is an interesting little tale...

[Pontius Navigator]

115 Sqn - The squadron came back on 21 August 1958, when No 116 Squadron at Tangmere was renumbered. It was now a Radar Calibration unit operating Varsities and Valettas.

and

On 21 August 1958 No. 116 Squadron at Watton was re-numbered No.115 Squadron. The squadron now had a completely different role. It was part of No. 90 Signals Group and its task was somewhat prosaic but vital, that of calibrating from the air all radio and radar installations at RAF airfields. Later in the year it moved to Tangmere, where it remained for five years on this task and also took part in calibrating ships' installations. It also flew a few Vickers Valettas for a year or two.

Note the latter extract does not mention the Varsity. Of course radar calibration can hide a multitude of things including plotting the ground emitter and recording its parameter.

[taxydual]

One of the Varsity's operating in/out of Gatow on 'those' flight's was WJ916. The only time in my whole career that I've seen an aircraft taxy into a hangar under it's own power, the hangar doors to be instantly closed and armed RAF Police posted outside.

[green granite]

More info here: Reconnaissance Flight Over the USSR (http://www.pinetreeline.org/giebelstadt/gieb-other/other/ogieb-8.html)

[VIProds]

Tankertrashnav

Talking about the North Sea, I attended the ACA meeting & was able to film Arthur Creighten, who was also Nav Rad but on Valiant's. He described how they did high altitude Maritime Reconnaissance missions flying up the North Sea, Artic Ocean & Barents Sea towards Murmansk. They had a camera in the bomb bay, also a 35mm camera taking a photograph every sweep of the H2S P.P.I. If they saw anything unusual, the USAF would send a low level aircraft from Greenland to investigate. On a lot of sorties, they would be accompanied by a Canberra flying at low level.

[cazatou]

One interesting thing about the corridors was that they were for the use of the 4 main WW2 Allied Powers only. Thus, in 1982, I flew the FRG Chancellor as well as Mrs T on a visit to Berlin. My abiding memory of the trip was the BFBS Radio Reporter thrusting a mike into the face of a 5 year old female pupil at the Gatow Primary School and asking "Do you know who Mrs Thatcher is?". Young lady gave the reporter a look of total disdain and said :-

"Of course I do - SHE'S THE STATION COMMANDER OF ENGLAND!!"

:D:D

[DougGordon]

Perhaps less well known is that the USAFE carried out a number of overflights of the Warsaw Bloc in 1955 & 1956.

These were shallow penetrations using three RF-100As based at Biturg who relied on speed flying in at 50,000 feet with afterburner and also six RF-57As based at Rhein Main who relied on flying high for safety. It is thought there were about 6 RF-100A and between 15 to 20 RB-57As overflights.

In my book 'Tactical Reconnaissance in the Cold war' I have devoted a chapter to the overflights of the RF-86, RF-100A and the RB-57. The chapter is entitled 'Haymakers, Heart Throbs and Slick Chicks' It gives some first hand accounts of the missions.

[exgroundcrew]

In response to SIRTOPPAMHATs picture, yes the ones at Wittering did contain 6 of these "dustbins" and were originally used to hold the Plutonium cores for the Red Beard 20Kt weapon, one in each bin.

The one I "owned" was used to hold the radioactive sources I used for calibration and testing of the radiation monitors. Some of them were rather hazardous and needed to be handled with a five foot pair of tongs before being deposited into a portable lead safe.

As each one had a manifoil combination lock on them which were renowned for being a right pain to use I once placed one of my sources on a spare desk in my secure office, locked the door, placed the appropriate hazard warning signs outside and went to lunch. Unfortunately one of my colleagues was on leave at the time and had unknown to me placed his filmbadge in the desk drawer. The first we knew of any problem was when Neddy was carted away to sick quarters a couple of weeks later when the badges were developed and his recorded a massive exposure.

[Prangster]

If anyone want's to pp me I'll gladly let them have a copy of one of my published ghost stories called 'Wytons Wanderer' all about a Canberra limping home slightly the worse for wear with singed tail at about the time of the Cuban Missle Crisis . Some liberties taken !!

[Green Flash]

Whilst we are in the Berlin Corridors, I did hear of a tale regarding an Andover that regularly flew the routes. It would fly as close as possible to the side of the corridor and sure enough, a MiG was despatched to confront the Imperialist Dogs. Andover chugging along with MiG on the wing tip. Andover slows, pops a bit of flap out and the MiG is not happy. Andover slows more and now the MiG is seriously worried; the burner flicking on and off and it's starting to wallow about. Andover drops full flap, puts the legs down, slows to a slow walk. MiG flicks into a stall. MiG never seen again. Urban legend?

[Art Field]

Urban legend or not it was a trick the Russian Bears have often used on us particularly when we had the VC10 K2 which had a relatively high stall speed. Not that we got that close to them (it says here) but if there were a couple around then the no2 would sneak up behind, both would slow up and leave us in a uncomfortable sandwich which meant we had to drop out of position.

[Gainesy]

Sneaky buggers them Ruskies.:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/cf-18_bear.jpg

[BEagle]

Us get close to Bears? We wouldn't do such a thing, would we, eh Arters...:E?

Probably just another urban myth, but one of my UAS QFIs in the early 1970s told me that, back in the pre-Duncan Sandys :mad: 1950s in RAFG, a co-ordinted bunch of HM's jets at various RAFG stations sat waiting for a clag filled frontal system to wend its way across RAFG until it was just hitting East Germany. Then they all roared off towards the east, prompting loads of MiGs to scramble. 5-10 minutes later, they all returned to the west.

By then the MiGs were airborne - but when they tried to land the weather at their aerodromes was duff. So quite a few had to bail out....:\

As I say, probably an urban myth.

[Wader2]

Urban legend or not it was a trick the Russian Bears have often used on us particularly when we had the VC10 K2 which had a relatively high stall speed. Not that we got that close to them (it says here) but if there were a couple around then the no2 would sneak up behind, both would slow up and leave us in a uncomfortable sandwich which meant we had to drop out of position.

Had that with two May once but they weren't quite so bearish :)

Then we eased back in to one may and, without looking, he turned in to us. Fortunately he pulled and we pushed. We were at 400 feet.

The BOI would have been interesting - Nimrod and May disappear in Norwegian Sea in mysterious circumstances. Unfortunately the photos didn't come out. Someone careless had the prints face to face when they were still wet and there was equal carelessness with the negs.:}

[Hot 'n' High]

814man,

Just to say how fascinating your photos and narratives have been (as well as others who have commented!!) – certainly been an eye-opener for me. I came in at the tail end of all this but do recall the joys of training on the 177A (ex-FAA!) but find the whole Cold War era fascinating (including the overflights etc, etc). Sadly, often think I was born 20 years too late to be part of some real “History”! :hmm:

Cheers, H ‘n’ H

[teeteringhead]

Andover drops full flap, puts the legs down, slows to a slow walk. MiG flicks into a stall. MiG never seen again. Urban legend? hmmmm ... first version I heard of that story was an Me 109 and a Lysander!

Have also heard a rotary version from Cold War days; for which you have to know that a heavy Hind couldn't hover OGE (away from the ground for plank drivers). Hind shadowing border patrolling Gazelle (IGB or Berlin, depending on story), plastic chicken leg keeps slowing down 'til Ivan in 'is 'Ind finds that lift at that speed is quite a lot less than AUM, and he hasn't got the height to fly away and recover ......:E

[tornadoken]

#46, Mike: RAFG Comms Sqdn, later 60 Sqdn, Wildenrath. Some of its Pembrokes were Mk. C.(PR).1, with Vinten LOROP cameras from c.1967, images good >25nm. Plied along the Zonal border and through the corridors, quite openly.

[ROC man]

Does anyone know if there were similar Soviet deep incursions into UK or other NATO countries airspace?
With hindsight do people think these flights (the deep incursions not the border straying flights) were too aggressive?
I guess these flights yielded valuable intel for the V Force on any radar weaknesses at the border and a radar picture of possible targets?
It would be great if the RAF crews who flew these missions had their personal stories documented and their bravery recognised.
As an aside, a former ROC mate who served in RAF Signals during the '60s described many years ago how Bears were tracked from their Kola bases to a split for their Cuba route or Bay of Biscay/ Africa routes. They could also identify particular aircraft or rather radar sets from subtle differences in the radar emissions.

[VIProds]

ROC man

Yes, they were aggressive. Eisenhower refused to let the Americans participate in deep incersions for fear that it could start a war, That's why the RAF was approached. When the RAF crews were starting to prepare, for the RB-45C flights, Clement Atlee was Prime Minister & they thought that he might not give permission. By the time the RAF crews had returned from the States after their training & convertion, Winston Churchill had been elected Prime Minister & although he did agree, he did have reservations.

A very popular Member of this Forum has very kindly given me the addresses of two Pilots that were involved in overflights. The Hon. Sec. of the local ACA Branch is writing to them, in the hope that they will give a talk on their experiences.

[Wader2]

how Bears were tracked from their Kola bases to a split for their Cuba route or Bay of Biscay/ Africa routes. They could also identify particular aircraft or rather radar sets from subtle differences in the radar emissions.

Oddly enough I just gave a presentation last night to the Lincolnshire Aviation Society on Soviet penetrations of the UKADR amongst others things.

[iceni]

See...

Richard Pearse : New Zealand Pioneer Aviator (1877 - 1953) (http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/pearse1.html)

[teeteringhead]

Eh iceni ...

surely not enough range to get from Waitohi to Russia ...

..... and what were the Czar's Air Defence Forces like in 1902 anyway ...???

[kluge]

post #40

"SirToppamHat As a 'Cold War Warrior', I have to say it's really strange to walk into Red Square"

Tavarich, indeed it is. And remains so.

Pazhalsta.

[ROC man]

VIProds

Many thanks for your reply.

I hope the USA showed their gratitute for the skills of their special friend. Did we get anything out of it other than the intel the RAF gathered? I guess it helped support our position at top table.

RB-66B tactical reconnaissance aeroplanes were based at Bruntingthorpe 1959 -62, has anyone heard of these being involved in incursions?

[Green Flash]

I'm sure I read in the Gutersloh book by (aargh, brain failure! You know who I mean, wasn't he the Station Int O?) about Harry having a Sunday afternoon tea party in his garden, early 50's? with his Sqn Bosses. All quiet, sun shining, birds singing, station closed. Suddenly a MiG hurtles over the hedge, cameras blazing. Staish and co sit to attention and watch as it rapidly departs eastbound. Eventually they decide it's probably pointless telling anyone as said Ivan will be finals for Erfurt by now. Tea consumption resumes.

And as regards Bear bateing I heard from the F4 driver responsible for the badly blistered Bear nose radome!:eek::E

[Brewster Buffalo]

It would be great if the RAF crews who flew these missions had their personal stories documented and their bravery recognised A number of aircrew involved with these missions were awarded the Air Force Cross. For example the captain of a 192 squadron Washington who flew a mission along the Soviet border in order to obtain ELINT on radar fitted to Mig 15s which required the crew to get the MiGs to intercept their plane.

[Rory166]

Amazon Uk has no new copies of "by any means ..." and secondhand from £17+. Amazon US has new and secondhand from 67c but postage would be $13 and take up to 6 weeks. see what your interest has done to the market guys.

Rory (aviateur sans moteur) :*

[scorpion63]

"#46, Mike: RAFG Comms Sqdn, later 60 Sqdn, Wildenrath. Some of its Pembrokes were Mk. C.(PR).1, with Vinten LOROP cameras from c.1967, images good >25nm. Plied along the Zonal border and through the corridors, quite openly."


Definitely not fitted with Vinten LOROP but something very different, been there done that. 60Sqdn 1973-1976

[ROC man]

First shown last night on BBC2 'James May on the Moon' which includes him getting a U2 flight from Beale to FL700. Perhaps of more interest was the BBC4 programme following, 'James May at the Edge of Space' which is about his training for his AEF.
Both programmes available on iplayer and repeated Thursday.
High altitude flight was clearly a very emotional experience for him.
Do AEF's come any better?

[mlc]

Amazon Uk has no new copies of "by any means ..." and secondhand from £17+. Amazon US has new and secondhand from 67c but postage would be $13 and take up to 6 weeks. see what your interest has done to the market guys.

Rory (aviateur sans moteur) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/bah.gif

Rory,

I got a 1p copy. I'm about half way through now and would be happy to post it on when I've read it.

[VIProds]

Pindi

Re. an article about RB-45 overflights in Russia published in "FlyPast", several years ago. I have been in touch with the Editor, who has very kindly done a search for the article, but came up empty handed.

If there are any members out there, that have the article, would they please contact me with the possibility of sending a copy as an attachment.

Thank you.

[Gainesy]

Are you sure it wasn't in Aeroplane Monthly?

[VIProds]

Gainesy & Pindi

Got there in the end. The John Crampton missions were published in the August 1997 edition of "Air Pictorial" !! What an amazing tool Google is. There is a copy wending it's way to me as I speak.

Many thanks.

[Gainesy]

I'd try Aeroplane anyway as they have had articles on RB-45 (RAF) and Canberra recce flight's. And the editor's (Mick Oakey) Dad was Boss of an RAF recce Canberra Squadron

[ian16th]

I remember an article about these flights in Air Mail. It was some time back, probably 4 or 5 years.

[VIProds]

I have just been in touch with David Baker who is the Editor of "Aviation News" & asked if he would allow me to share John Crampton's article with members of "PPRuNe". He has very kindly agreed, so long as it is not used in any commercial way. Aren't Aviation people super !

This is a long, but really interesting article, so be warned.

Russian photo-shoot

In this feature, Sqn Ldr John Crampton reveals for the first time his part in the top secret RAF operation in the 1950's to photograph Russia's ICBMs.

In July 1951, I was the happy Boss of No 97 (Lincoln) Sqn, when the C-in-C Bomber Command sent for me and said that I was to assume command of a Special Duty Flight in conditions of utmost secrecy. The Flight would be equipped with North American RB-45C four-jet strategic reconnaissance aircraft and the crews concerned would proceed almost immediatly to the United States to begin training on the aircraft.
The Flight was to comprise of three aircraft, each with a crew of two pilots and a navigator. The other eight aircrew, as much in the dark as I was about our immediate future, joined me at RAF Sculthorpe to be flown to the USA for a 60-day detachment. Accordingly, we left Sculthorpe aboard a C-97 Stratofreighter on August 3, 1951,bound for Barksdale AFB Louisiana. There we spent ten days with a B-45 squadron, getting to grips with the aircraft before moving on to Langley AFB, Virginia, for introduction to the more advanced RB-45C version. On September 2, we flew up to Lockbourne AFB, near Columbus, Ohio, home of the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, operating the only three squadrons flying the RB-45C. No 323 Sqn was in residence, the other two being in England (Sculthorpe) and Japan. We received a short, but excellent, conversion course.
In our second month of flying at Lockbourne, one of my pilots made a very heavy landing one night. The aircraft was written off, but the crew were unhurt. The dramatic result of this was that Lockbourne's Base Commander, myself and the pilot were flown to Omaha, headquarters of Strategic Air Command there to be interviewed by General Curtis LeMay, who did not like people who broke his aircraft and left us in no doubt of the fact. His anger was directed mainly at the wretched pilot, who departed from the USA shortly afterwards. I learned subsequently that he had not so much been posted to me as posted away from his unit, where he had a reputation as a "pranger". He was replaced by an RAF pilot already seconded to a USAF B-45 unit. We completed our Conversion and returned to Sculthorpe where we became an additional flight with the resident RB-45C squadron. We still had no idea what was planned for us There was much speculation, mostly centred on comparative trials of the Boeing flying-boom in flight refuelling method against the probe and drogue favoured by the RAF. It was a tense time for us and our hosts because nine RAF aircrew flying with an elite USAF squadron raised eyebrows, which we were unable to lower. The situation eased when Colonel "Hak" Mixson, USAF arrived as our Liason Officer and fielded many of the questions.

Before my PC or the Network "bomb-out" I will submit this & continue another reply.

[VIProds]

Early in 1952 I was summoned to High Wycombe with my navigator Rex Sanders. This was the moment of truth and I confess to some apprehension when the charts were unrolled to show three seperate tracks from Sculthorpe to the Baltic States, the Moscow area and Central Southern Russia. The deal was for these three routes to be flown simultaneously, departing Sculthorp in rapid succession to rendezvous with the tankers to the North of Denmark. After a maximum top-up we were to climb at maximum continuous power at about Mach No 0.68, to the highest altitude the temperature of the night would allow. Our "targets" were ICBM sites and similar strategically important areas. We were to take 35mm photos of the aircraft's radar display when the targets were locatd and identified. Timing was to be critical because our intelligence agencies would be listening for Soviet reaction to our penetration of their airspace and had certain diversionary exercises for keeping them clear of our routes. We were, of course, to fly without navigation lights and maintain R/T silence, although we would have an OMG (O My God) frequency for desperate emergency. It was a relief finally to know what was expected of us, although I felt some concern at the thought of briefing my crews who, it must be remembered, were not volunteers. My fears were justified and one of the original pilots washed his hands of the whole affair and returned to his parent unit, where I feared he might well entertain his chums to this extrordinary tale, to the prejudice of our security. He was replaced by yet another pilot already flying B-45's on an exchange posting in America.
Before the date of our live sorties had been fixed, I took my crew on a gentle probe of the defences by flying over the Soviet Zone of Eastern Germany for half an hour or so, whilst our intelligence people monitored Russian radio and radar activity. Nothing was noted and so we were all set for the big one. Four aircraft (three active and one spare) had been allocated to us and these had to be stripped of all USAF markings and repainted in RAF colours. Security shackles were further weakened because to do this job in time, two of our aircraft were flown to nearby RAF West Raynham, where a hanger was cleared and several gallons of paint stripper were put to good use by a number of very mystified airmen. In the event of one of our aircraft falling into Russian hands, the United States would point to the paint job and disclaim all knowiedge, similarly, the RAF would state that it had no RB-45C's on inventory. How well this improbable tale, told by a six foot six inch old-Harrovian, would go down with the Russians was fortunately never put to the test. our story would be that we were lost, a gross professional insult to my crew and myself, but an acceptable one if dire need arose - and we should have false charts to back our claim.
So late in the afternoon .....

I will continue the actual flight, tomorrow.

[VIProds]

And so, in the late afternoon of a fine April day in 1952, the three "RAF" RB-45Cs departed from Scuithorpe and headed towards the Skagerrak. We picked up our tankers, took on every pound of fuel we could, broke away, doused all the lights and headed south-east into the black night. All was going well and Rex Sanders was getting good plots on his radar and feeding me with the courses to steer to the targets. We had the long haul, south-east across Russia. Sgt Lindsay, my co-pilot, gave us confidence-inspiring reports on the aicraft's systems and told us that we were flying on the right side of the fuel consumption curve.
My most abiding memory of the route is the apparent wilderness over which we were flying. There were no lights on the ground, nor any sign of human habitation - quite unlike the rest of Europe. We continued our gentle climb at a Mach No of about 0.68 to 36,000 ft and covered our briefed route, taking the target photographs as planned. It was all so quiet as to be distinctly eerie. Finally, we turned for home and in due course began the let down to Sculthorpe. We landed without incident, after ten hours and 20 minutes in the air. The two other aircraft covered all their targets - and the operation had been a success.
A few days later we flew our aircraft, still in RAF markings, to Lockbourne AFB, Ohio and the following day we travelled to Omaha, where I again met General LeMay under happier circumstances. He was gracious in his compliments. It was all very heart warming. We returned to England where to my surprise I did not resume command of No 97 Sqn, but was given No 101 at Binbrook, recently re-equiped with the RAF's first Canberras - a bit like landing the Spring Double. At Binbrook, I quickly settled in to the squadron commander's chair and rather less comfortably into the pilot's seat of the Canberra, which seemed very snall after the RB-45C, not unlike a Ford Escort after a stretched Cadillac !
But after a few months, in October 1952, I was summoned back to Bomber Command, informed that the Special Duty Flight was to be reformed and asked if I would take over command again. I found myself accepting it and a few days later we were welcomed back by 'Hak' Mixson at Sculthorpe and got back into the old routine. There were a few crew changes. Rex Sanders stayed with me, but Sgt Lindsay had been involved in an RAF B-29 crash and his place was taken by Flt Lt 'MacFurze', or more properly McAlistair Furze, one of my flight commanders on 101. This was an inspired choice on my part because Mac rapidly became an expert on the aircraft and its systems and would have elbowed me out of the captain's seat given half the chance. We flew hard throught November and by the beginning of December, when we were trained to concert pitch, the show was suddenly cancelled and we were ordered back to our units. Among the rumours floating around was the belief that the risk at that time was too great. If any one of us had gone down in Russia, the balloon might have gone up !

I will continue with the second overflight, which nearly ended in disaster, tomorrow.

[Wander00]

Pity we did know of these exploits when Bob Furze was OC "A" Squadron at Cranwell - would have made him a much more interesting boss (I guess "God" in those days!). Is that what won him his AFC?

Wander00

[angels]

This is gripping stuff. Can't wait for the next instalment!!

Many thanks for posting it. :ok:

[racedo]

This is gripping stuff. Can't wait for the next instalment!!

I agree.....:ok:

[VIProds]

Thank you

My tour with 101 came to an end in July 1953 and I was posted to HQ No 1 Group at Bawtry from where, after ten very indifferent months as an operations officer, I was again summoned to High Wycombe, told that the SDF was to be revived and again asked if I would take it on. I had begun to view the entire project as mine and would have been most upset if the job had been offered to anyone else. So, in March 1954, it was back to Sculthorpe, 'Hak' Mixson, the big stretched Cadillacs, American flying clothing and the American language plus the raised eyebrows. I was concerned that our cover might well have been blown because so many people knew that we were up to something, even if they were not sure what. The super-efficient flight line procedures under which the crew could call stores or any other department at Sculthorpe using walkie-talkies, to discuss our aircraft problems and movements in uncoded language, was also a worry. The least competent Soviet spy or sympathiser in the locality with a small radio tuned to the American frequency could have written a manual on events at Sculthorpe! Anyway after a months hard work, during which the four assigned aircraft were repainted in RAF colours, I went to Bomber Command accompanied by the faithful Rex Sanders, to collect the flight plans which again showed three routes north, central and a much longer southern route which would require in-flight refuelling outbound as well as inbound. this is the one I chose.

This is the third time that I have tried typing this (one forefinger key stabbing) & the sytem keeps bouncing me out, so I shortened it this time.

[VIProds]

The Intelligence people briefed us carefully: there might be some surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) but no radar-eqipped night fighters, although there was a ground control radar reporting system which would enable them to track us and position a fighter within visual range, but this was not thought to be likely. The one comforting thought was that we should be too high and too fast for any anti-aircraft fire. No flak! Good news! We were to remain silent unless attacked, in which case OMG frequency was to be used to give a sitrep to the chaps back at the ranch.
Late in April 1954 everything was go, including the spare aircraft (which we never used). Once again, the three RAF RB-45Cs staggered into the air and headed for north Denmark where our faithful tankers topped us up. After a smart salute to the tanker's boom operator-all lights doused-came the long, slow climb into the inky blackness east-south-east. We cleared some stratus at 30,000 ft, got a good view of the stars and were greatly encouraged by Rex's confidence-inspiring report that the ground mapping radar was working like a breeze. He gave me new courses from time to time and asked for straight and level flight as we ran on to our various target sites which he said he was having no problem photographing.
Occasionally I saw, reflected on the cloud cover, flashes from the ground, similar to lightning or an active bombing range at night. It was causing us no harm-just puzzling, that's all.Having taken nearly all our photos, we were heading south towards Kiev at 36,ooo ft and Mach 0.7 when the electric storm or bombing range flashes seemed to be getting more frequent and always directly beneath us, which was odd for a random phenomenon. Had it not been for the absolute certanty which the briefing officers had dismissed the possibility of flak, I would have been a shade suspicious because it all closely resembled the German variety I had seen a lot of in an earlier life. No-one else was bothered; Rex, who couldn't see out anyway, was devilling away at his photography and Mac in the back was reporting all systems normal, leaving me to ponder on this curious departure from the script. My reverie was rudely interrupted by the sudden heart-stopping appearance of a...................


Sorry guys, I will have to upload the final part, tomorrow.

[Melchett01]

Wow - this is a cracking thread - right up there with 'Did you fly the Vulcan' for sheer time wasting potential. Just spent over an hour reading through all this without realising.

As someone who remembers the 80s Cold War and has an interest in history, it really is fascinating. I don't know if anyone else has read it, but James Bamford's Body of Secrets also contains sections on deep penetration flights, albeit in terms of the broader intelligence collect picture rather than from a pure aviation perspective. However, it is still an interesting read as it goes into how they used the flights for various purposes including to get the Soviet AD networks to deliberately light them up so they could record their responses to the overflight. http://http://www.amazon.co.uk/Body-Secrets-Americas-Britains-Eavesdrop/dp/0099427745/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246576088&sr=1-2

Fascinating, I will be definintely keeping an eye on how this thread progresses.

[angels]

VIP - Don't tell me you're inputting this manually??!! :eek:

Many thanks.

[VIProds]

Angels

I could have used Voice recognition software or high speed touch typing, but I prefer good old finger stabbing the keys. The blood does make a mess of the keyboard on long passages, though.

[ian16th]

VIP,

Many thanks for your effort it makes facinating reading.

Do your realise that you do not have to key it all in while you are online on the PPrune site, you can key it into an editor or word processing program, save it and then cut and paste to the website?

[TEEEJ]

Great thread! Thanks VIP for the input. :ok:

TJ

[racedo]

Sorry guys, I will have to upload the final part, tomorrow

VIProds

You are being a big tease doing that.

Thanks for the posting as it is fascinating.

[VIProds]

ian16th

That sounds like smoke & mirrors to me, it's pathetic really I have fixed V-Bomber Radars, Mainframe IBM Computers in the Bank of England, Stock Exchange, HM Treasury & The Home Office, but mention Cut & Paste & my eyes start glazing over ! Sorry racedo it just seemed to come at a convenient moment.:)

[VIProds]

My reverie was rudely interrupted by the sudden heart-stopping appearance of a veritable flare path of exploding golden anti-aicraft fire. There was no doubt about it; it was very well predicted flak- dead ahead and at the same height as we were. My reaction was instinctive-throttles wlde open and haul the aircraft round on its starboard wing tip until the gyro compass pointed west. I began a gentle 100 ft per minute decent because that made us seem to go a bit faster, although it didn't because we started juddering in the limiting Mach number buffet. So I eased the power off a bit, but kept up the decent on the 'it seems faster' principle and since we had been predicted I thought it best to change height as well as speed and direction thus giving the gunners down below three new problems. Poor old Rex piped up, "Hey, what about my photos ?" I replied succinctly, explained that clearly we have been tracked very accurately, told him about the flak burst and requested a course to steer to Furstenfeldbruck, our refuelling rendezvous and declared alternative in an emergency.
We had about a thousand miles to go and I urged Mac to keep his eyes peeled for fighters which might pick us up outside the flack pattern. Much later,I leaned that there were fighters about with orders to ram us. Maximum speed was essential. I flew the aircraft just on the right side of the buffet, it sort of trembled affectionately. I had time to reflect that the earlier flashes we had seen below us had been ground fire and that our stately progress as ordered by Rex had given even the dimmest battery commanders time to track us and fire. The early attempts had all misjudged our height and thank God, the Kiev defences had misjudged our speed; they had chucked everything up a few hundred yards ahead of us.
I thought for a moment of jettisoning our now empty 1,200 gallon wing-tip tanks. Their absence might have added a few more knots to our speed but, once found, their makers name and address would have revealed that they came from America and there would have been the devil of a row. Anyway, the thought of them bouncing down the High Street of Kiev West at two o'clock in the morning disturbing the ladies and frightening the children did not appeal. We were not flying over Russia to do that! Moreover, General LeMay would not have been best pleased at my scattering expensive bits of his aircraft over Russia. So, we kept the tanks on and finally, after what seemed an eternity, met up with our tankers but, for the first time, the refuelling boom refused to stay in our aircraft. Fearing our refuelling system had been damaged over Kiev, I thought it wiser to land at Furstenfeldbruck and refuel in the conventional way. This we did and then flew home without further incident. It was good to see the other two aircraft back at Sculthorpe and to hear that their crews had had successful incident-free flights.
And that is almost all there was of it. But the story would not be complete without a tribute to those who set up the whole excecise, in particular General LeMay who was determined to get the best target information for his aircrews and to the late Sir Winston Churchill who agreed to the RAF's participation. A tribute must be paid to Mr Llewelyn who, at the time, was Bomber Command's Chief Scientific Officer and played a practical 'hands-on' role improving the quality of our radar pictures and even to giving them a stereoscopic effect. Finnaly, I still wonder how the Russians knew exactly where we were!

[Bill16STN]

VIProds, very many thanks for a fascinating recollection – thoroughly enjoyed it!
:ok:

[midnight retired]

Thank you for sharing John Cramptons article and also to David Baker of Aviation News for allowing PPRuNe members access to it.
Whilst I have followed this Operation over the years as a cold war mission with great interest this original report by Sqdrn Ldr Crampton is quite facinating and ,in my opinion needs updating in order that the full story can be told to the British Public some 56 years after the events in which the RAF demonstrated great bravery ,resourcefulness and determination in achieving the desired result.
Might I suggest someone of the calibre of Patrick Bishop ,the Author of Bomber Boys,could research and flesh out in further detail the story behind the the story?
It has to be that both sides of the equation have interesting records of these missions including those of the Russian hawks who apparently thought that WW3 might be starting !!
Regarding the comment about the Russians attempting to down the authors aircraft I seemto recall that the traitor KIm Philby was suspected of passing on the "flight plan "details to his Moscow masters who in turn alerted the Flak batteries down route,he had form for this sort of thing so it is just possible.

[angels]

Many thanks again VIP. :ok:

midnight - An excellent idea about someone following this up. Had I got the time I would be all over this like a rash, but work/family/sloth precludes the hard and thorough research that would be necessary to do justice to this fascinating snippet of history.

If someone out there has got the time, go for it!

FWIW - I'll certainly buy a copy of the resulting book!! :}

[midnight retired]

Angels
Many thanks for your views and support on this interesting but generally little known RAF involvement in Cold War aerial reconnaissance.Perhaps someone will take up the challenge and flag up the exploits of this brave band of RAF Aircrew and thus bring it to the attention of a wider readership who will appreciate what these covert operations were about and the great personal risks to the Aircrew who flew on these missions .

[ECMO1]

I was recently over in the states and had to visit Maxwell AFB on an unrelated matter. However, this thread had been so interesting I wanted to see what I could quickly dig up in the short time I had available.
This cannot compare to the article cited above by VIP, but does cover the training that the RAF crews received while in the states. There is more information available about the 1952 missions, but that will have to wait until I have a chance to type it into this computer. Hope this is of interest to you, it was to me.

Source: USAF Air Force Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Montgomery AL
K-WG-91-HI, Historical Report for September 1951 of 91st Strategic Reconnaissance, Lockbourne Air Force Base

Covering pages 45 - 49:


Mission Analysis

On 4 August 1951 three (3) Royal Air Force (RAF) crews reported to Barksdale Air Force Base, Louisiana for the purpose of participating in a training program to be given by personnel of the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Wing. (See Ltr no no, Hqs 91st SRW to CG SAC, subj: Trng of RAF Crews, dtd 10 Oct 51) During the first week at Barksdale, the RAF crews were given a brief indoctrination in organizations within the USAF, the mission of strategic reconnaissance, and the internal organization and activities of a wing. Arrangements were then made for these crews to attend the B-45 Mobile Training Detachment (MTD) at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia. This course involved 120 hours of instruction and was attended by the RAF crews from 12 August 1951 thru 2 September 1951. Each crew passed this course successfully and reported to Lockbourne Air Force Base, Columbus, Ohio, on 5 September 1951 for flying training and further ground school under the supervision of the Commanding Officer, 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Wing.
The total ground school training per crew given by Headquarters, 91st Strat Recon Wing consisted of 80 hours of instruction, and was broken down into eight (8) different categories as follows: (1) Physiological Indoctrination – eight (8) hours consisting of four (4) hours classroom instruction covering the effects of high altitude flight on the human body, the mental hazards of which must be overcome, and the theory of operation of the pressure-demand oxygen system now in use by the USAF. The remaining four (4) hours of this training was consumed by simulated flight, through the use of a pressure chamber, to altitudes falling within normal operation of the B-45 type aircraft. An explosive decompression exercise was completed simulating decompression from 20,000 to 45, 000 feet. (2) Flying Safety – three hours. This phase of ground training consisted of explanation of USAF and SAC flying safety programs, discussion of traffic control system as administered by Civil Aeronautics Authority, and the jurisdiction of this agency over USAF aircraft in flight. (3) Regulations – one (1) hour review of pertinent Air Force regulations covering general flight rules and requirements, visual flight rules, instrument flight rules, clearance rules and authorized deviations. (4) Maintenance - three (3) hours, concerning Strategic Air Command Maintenance System as outlined in SAC Regulation 66-12. (5) Intelligence – six (6) hours concerning deportment of captured personnel, interrogation of prisoners of war, and articles contained in the Geneva Convention. (6) Navigation – consisting of 14 hours training in the theory of radar in general and a complete breakdown of the APQ-24 indicator, computer, modulator systems, and their relation to each other; 11 hours of practice on the APQ-24 radar trainer making use of the set under simulated flight conditions; and four (4) hours of training on identification and breakup of targets as applied to reconnaissance radar scope photography. (7) Basic Photography – eight (8) hours, consisting of training in the physical properties of light; principles and characteristics of lenses and filters upon components of light. Focal length of a lens and its application to photography; compilation scale; photographic coverage; flight line separation and exposure interval; photographic equipment used on the RB-45 and its operation. (8) Miscellaneous – consisting of six (6) hours link training, two (2) hours air refueling, 10 hours cruise control, and four (4) hours examination.
The flying training program for these three (3) RAF crews consisted of a series of missions designed to bring each crew to a combat ready status in the minimum of time. These missions have been designated as “P” missions. The breakdown of crew flying times is as follows: Crew Number One – 58:55 hours; Crew Number Two – 57:00 hours; and Crew Number Three – 50:55 hours. The following is the air training program as outlined by Headquarters 91st Strat Recon Wing for the training crews in transition to B-45 type aircraft.

Mission Description
P-1 Back seat familiarization ride, instructor pilot demonstrates
Operation of all emergency procedures

P-2 Front seat ride transition

P-3 Transition

P-4 This is normally a pre-solo stand board check but since
RAF crews did not solo until completion of training this time was used for more transition.

P-5 Instrument demonstration

P-6 Instrument practice

P-7 Instrument practice

P-8 Instrument practice

P-9 Instrument check

P-10 Night Check

P-11 Primarily a photo training mission and X country

P-12 In Flight Refueling Demonstration

P-13 In Flight Refueling Practice

P-14 In Flight Refueling Practice

P-15 In Flight Refueling Practice

P-16 Standardization Board Check

Two (2) of the three (3) RAF crews completed all phases of the foregoing air training successfully. RAF Crew Number Three did not complete the air refueling phase. After expending 14 hours and 45 minutes on the refueling training, it became obvious that considerable more time would be required before the potential aircraft commander on this crew could complete the air-to-air refueling with any degree of success. Experience of this Wing has shown that the normal crew training time required on this phase of training is 10 hours. RAF Crew Number One completed the air refueling training in 11 hours and RAF Crew Number Two completed the air refueling training in 13 hours. With the exception of the air refueling phase of this training program, all three (3) crews successfully completed their air training.
As a check on the capability of the RAF crews and to substantiate their combat ready status, each crew was briefed to fly a simulated combat mission. These simulated missions were flown without instructors and incorporated all phases of a normal reconnaissance mission including in-flight refueling, radar scope and conventional photography. The RAF Crew Number Three was flown by a combat ready aircraft commander of the 91st Strat Recon Wing. All of these missions were completed successfully and photo results were forwarded to higher headquarters for evaluation and observation. As a result of these missions and previous results, RAF Crew Number One and RAF Crew Number Two were considered Combat Ready by Headquarters 91st Strat Recon Wing. RAF Crew Number Three, with the exception of the aircraft commander, was also considered to be in a Combat Ready status.

[VIProds]

ECMO1


Many thanks for that information, it fills in a lot of gaps from Sqd Ldr John Crampton's article. I have been asked to give another talk in October to the North Lincs Branch of the ACA. This time, on "Russian overflights by the RAF during the Cold War", so will use John's article & the information that you have supplied ECMO1 on "Operation Ju Jitsu" & the daring "Operation Robin" mission to Kapustin Yar. I can't wait to see your next update, as it is of real interest.

[rockape2k7]

I think this is a great topic for further research. And I'm in the invidious position of being able to get some talented people to 'voluntarily' look at it over the next year. Lets see what we can deliver...they/he/she may need your help.

Rock

[ECMO1]

Further to my last posting, here is the additional history source I was able to gather at Maxwell AFB.

Source: USAF Air Force Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Montgomery AL
K-WG-91-HI, Supplement to May 1952 Historical Report of 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Wing

Note: I’ve left off the footnotes in the text since they all reference Ibid and I didn’t start copying until after the first reference source.

Covering pages 2 - 5:

Upon arrival at RAF Station Sculthorpe, a new development in the operation confronted the detachment. A directive was received from Headquarters, Seventh Air Division, to transfer the RB-45C aircraft to the Royal Air Force. Immediately the aircraft were repainted, obliterating the stars of the United States Air Force, and substituting the red, white and “bull-eyes” of the RAF. The transfer was completed on 5 April 1952 when the RAF accepted the 263 equipment from Lt. Colonel Marion C.Mixson, Detachment Commander.

A special Duties Flight, commanded by Squadron Leader John Crampton, was formed of RAF personnel who had received training in the RB-45C at Lockbourne, and had acquired additional training with the present detachment of the 91st Strat Rcn Wing at Sculthorpe. Three (3) reconnaissance crews were formed of these personnel and were assigned to fly the jet aircraft. Three (3) USAF air crews thus relieved of duty assignments, were then returned to the Zone of the Interior.

The operations which followed the transfer of aircraft, were conducted under the joint supervision of the RAF Bomber Command and Seventh U.S. Air Division. The mission of the detachment was twofold in purpose. First to co-operate with the RAF Photo Reconnaissance Unit at RAF Station Upwood in the accomplishment of a photographic project utilizing the APQ-24 radar equipment with certain modifications. Secondly to evaluate USAF aircraft and profile type missions by RAF crew personnel. During the project, a number of profile missions were executed and the operation was climaxed by two (2) highly successful maximum efforts. Further information concerning the flying operations of the Detachment will be included in a subsequent section of this report.
Upon completion of the project as set forth by RAF Bomber Command and Seventh U.S. Air Division, the Detachment prepared for return to it’s home station, Lockbourne Air Force Base Ohio. Included in this preparation was the return of the RB-45C aircraft to the USAF, which was concluded with the transfer of 263 equipment on 5 May 1952.

The six (6) tanker aircraft departed RAF Station Sculthorpe, England, on 7 May 1952, and arrived at Lockbourne the following morning. The four (4) reconnaissance aircraft, (three (3) flown by RAF crews and one (1) flown by a USAF crew), departed Sculthorpe on 9 May 1952 and arrived Lockbourne on 11 May 1952. The latter four (4) aircraft remained at Keflavik, Iceland for nearly two days due to adverse weather conditions at the next refueling point of Goose Bay, Labrador.

The total strength of the organization while on temporary duty in the United Kingdom, included two hundred and twenty (220) USAF personnel and nine (9) RAF personnel. Thirty-seven (37) officers and one hundred eighty three (183) airmen comprised the total USAF strength while the RAF personnel included five (5) officers and four (4) airmen.

Flown by RAF personnel, the RB-45C aircraft completed nineteen (19) profile missions and two (2) highly successful maximum efforts of three (3) aircraft each. Sixty five thousand, eight hundred and five (65,805) gallons of fuel were transferred during the in-flight refueling operations. Of this total, forty eight thousand, six hundred and five (48, 605) gallons of fuel were transferred during the completion of the profile missions, while a total of seventeen thousand, two hundred (17,200) gallons were received by jet aircraft while accomplishing the maximum effort requirements. During the first maximum effort flown on 12 April 1952, the total fuel transferred was four thousand, one hundred (4,100) gallons and the total RB-45C flying time was sixteen (16) hours and ten (10) minutes. On 17 April 1952, the second maximum effort was flown during which time, the three (3) jet aircraft compiled a total time aloft of twenty four (24) hours and twenty (20) minutes, and received thirteen thousand, one hundred (13,100) gallons of fuel in air refueling. Forty one (41) sorties were flown by the RB-45C type aircraft. This figure includes the profiles and maximum efforts described in the preceeding subparagraph. Of the total sorties, twelve (12) were test flights and four (4) were for training purposes only. The total flying time amassed by the reconnaissance aircraft was one hundred eighty five (185) hours and fifty (50) minutes.

Upon completion of each mission, the exposed photographic film was delivered by courier, to Headquarters Seventh Air Division, South Ruislip, England. It was then forwarded to RAF Bomber Command for evaluation. No written evaluation reports were received by the Detachment, however, according to verbal reports, the missions were generally very successful.

[Mick Smith]

Not RAF but NSA have just released a load of interesting information on a USAF sigint C130 shot down over Armenia in Sept 1958


C-130 Shootdown - NSA/CSS (http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/c130_shootdown.shtml)

[VIProds]

I have just received a letter from Squadron Leader John Crampton DFC AFC & Bar RAF Ret'd, what a delightful Gentleman. John wrote "Let it be clearly understood from the start - we survived by pure luck".

"Two or three points: We were never told what the operation was all about. Never. It was one of the most difficult aspects about it all. Why were we attached to an elite USAF RB45C Strategic Reconnaissance Squodron? Why didn't the Yanks fly the missions? It was only at the end when I realized that what you do not tell the Squadron Leader and his aircrew they cannot tell the Russians in the unlikely event of their surviving a successful shoot-down".

"You might know about the above by now. In early 1951 The Russians were fed-up with American recce aircraft flying over their territory and so Kruschev got on the hot line to Washington and told Harry Truman that Russia would consider it a act of war if America sent one more recce aircraft over their Country. This put the wind up the American President who sent for General Curtis E LeMay, C in C Strategic Air Command, and told him - no more recce aircraft over Russia.................
LeMay went immediatly to the Pentagon and called for a meeting with the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He told them it was essential that the target information was obtained. The Russian nuclear targets have to be destroyed in the first ten minutes of WW3 not just the first day. Since the President had banned him from sending any more recce aircraft out would the Joint Chiefs get onto Westminster and ask if the RAF would do the job if neccessary in the USAF's RB45Cs? Attlee, the PM, didn't like it all but his Intellegence blokes persuaded him to at least form an RAF Special Duty Flight only to go out with his permission if all was clear. So Attlee agreed. The VCAS asked Squadron Leader Micky Martin the last surviving Dam Buster pilot to form the Flight but Micky failed his explosive decompression test so it was back to his day job and someone else had to be called. Get Crampton perhaps the only operational type in Bomber Command at that time with jet experience and how that came about is another story altogether".

"Now all you have to do is read my paper that appeared in Air Clues in August 1997. That's what happened".

"One of the stuped things about the flight was that it contained three NCO's. We should all have been officers and lived together in the US Officers Club and Batchelor Officers Quarters. As things were three of my men were in the Enlisted Mens Quarters. A security leak was the problem. The NCO's were subjected to searching questions as indeed the officers were".

"Also the Second Pilots were Flight Engineers incapable of flying the aircraft if the pilot had been hit".

P.S. "Churchill was back in Downing St when we did the two ops in April '52 & '54".

[VIProds]

Well, here goes. I have done some further investigating from several sources including the CIA Archives (thank goodness for the Freedom of Information Act). As a result I have changed some of the information that I had previously written.

In May 1953, English Electric were producing the Canberra B2. Bomber, when they started the production line for the reconnaissance version, the PR3. Richard Bissell, who was the head CIA person responsible for Russian Overflights asked his Scientific adviser, Richard S Leghorn to research high Altitude aircraft that could help the United States carry out photographic overflights of Soviet territory.

Leghorn was convinced that the Canberra could be the aircraft if it were modified. He insisted that English Electric be invited over to the Wright Air Development Command in Dayton to discuss modifications. They said that the CIA were extreamly impressed with the altitude perfofmance of the B2. (47,000 ft ceiling) and asked the English Electric Designers if there was any possibility that they could extend the length of the Canberra's wings and install more powerful engines, to produce an even higher ceiling. When the Boffins got back to the UK, they felt that their wing design was nigh on perfect, but installed six, more powerful Rolls Royce Avon-109 engines to three Canberra's on the production line (WH726, WJ573 & WJ574). To their amazement, the ceiling on these three aircraft increased from 47,000 ft to 65,000 ft. Which was incredable as this was only 5,000 ft lower than the U-2's ceiling and the U-2. wasn't even on the drawing board at this stage.

British Intelligence had found out that a lot of German WWII missile experts were shipped to Kapustin Yar, South East of Stalingrad to develop missiles by the Russians. No one knew if these were short, intermediate or long range missiles. At this time, the USA did not have a long range, high altitude photo reconnaissance aircraft like the Canberra, so the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the CIA agreed that they would propose that the RAF would carry out a deep penetration mission to Kapustin Yar in a modified Canberra. US President Eisenhower would not give permission for US overflights of Russia. The UK Prime Minister Winston Churchill agreed to the RAF undertaking this operation, even though he had reservations about it.

All three aircraft were modified for reconnaissance duties. WH726 was fitted with extra fuel tanks in the bomb bay and was flown to Hanscom Field in the US and had an ultra high quality 100 inch oblique camera, designed by Dr Jim Baker which was on loan to the RAF and was fitted to the Port side of the rear fuselage.

When WH726 flew back to the UK, they did a trial flight by flying up the English Channel and took some high quality photographs of the streets of Central London! The three aircraft were delivered on loan to 540 Sqn at RAF Wyton. On the 27th August 1953, Canberra WH726 who's Crew consisted of Wg Cdr A.W.H.(Freddie)Ball, Sqd Ldr W.N.(Don)Kenyon and Sgt A.J.(Jim)Brown. Canberra WJ574 who's Crew consisted of Fl Lt Garside, Fl Lt Shield (on the 27th August mission) and Fl Lt Reeve (on the 28th August mission) and Sgt Wigglesworth. Both aircraft took off on the 27th August during the day for a practice flight. The normal procedure was once they achieved operating height, the second aircraft would check to make sure that the lead aircraft was not displaying a telltale "contrail".

At about 1:00am on 28th August 1953, both aircraft took off from the American Base at Giebelstadt, which is about 8 miles South East of Wurzburg in West Germany (right on the East German Border). The idea was to fly under cover of darkness and to arrive at Kapustin Yar just after sunrise. WH726 flew via Kiev, Kharkov then south of Stalingrad then turned to Port to head for the missile production and testing grounds at Kapustin Yar. Russian Radar tracked WH726 as soon as it entered Soviet airspace and the Russians vectored fighters to try and intercept the Canberra, but the MiG-15 fighters did not have A.I. Radar and they had to rely on visual sightings, which at night and with WH726 being blacked out would have been impossible.

By the time that WH726 arrived at Kapustin Yar, it was daylight and one MiG-15 Pilot, Lieutenant Mikail Shulga spotted the Canberra several thousand feet above him glinting in the morning sun. He was flying at his maximum altitude which was 47,000 ft, so all he could do was to accelerate in a shallow dive then pulling the MiG-15 into a climb, but his aircraft kept stalling "and nothing came of it", which dispels the stories that WH726 was flying at 47,000 ft also that the aircraft was fired on and badly damaged. A Russian defector, who in 1953 served as an Air Defence Radar Operator and recalls that the Canberra incident was an absolute farce as some MiG-15's were incorrectly vectored and the Pilots were confussed and started firing at each other.

Once the photographs were taken, WH726 turned back on itself and followed the Volga River to the Caspian Sea and then on to Iran (Tabriz airfield). Once the Crew were rested and the aircraft refuelled, it was flown back to Giebelstadt where the film was transported back to the States for processing and analysis.

WH726 went on to fly "Operation Robin" missions along the Eastern Block Countries between 10 and 40 miles outside their Border with the oblique camera. On 1st March 1954, Fl Lt D.C. Downs and Fl Lt J. Gingell flew WH726 back to Hanscom Field in the States to have the 100 inch oblique camera replaced by a 240 inch downward looking LOROP camera fitted in the bomb bay. WH726 continued flying photographic missions till 21nd September 1966 when it was struck off the RAF Inventory and sold to BAC, who converted it to B72 standard. It was then sold on to the Peruvian Airforce.

Many thanks to all the sources, that I have been able to piece this all together.

[angels]

This one is more and more fascinating! Thanks everyone. :ok:

[Heimdall]

VIProds,

I'm delighted to find another individual interested in clarifying exactly whether the overflight of Kapustin Yar ever took place. I assume that you have used my article at The Spyflight Website (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/yar.htm) as part of your source material.

Chris Pocock, the aviation journalist and U-2 expert, has probably done more research into the Kapustin Yar overflight than anyone else, including numerous visits to the National Archives where he searched through dozens of de-classified files looking for positive evidence that the sortie took place. Chris has published his findings and conclusion at:The Overflight of Kapustin Yar and Operation Robin (http://www.scribd.com/doc/4566310/Chris-Pocock-Operation-Robin-and-the-Overflight-of-Kapustin-Yar)

If you haven’t done so already you will see from reading the article that, despite the many references to the sortie in American publications, no official confirmation that the sortie ever took place has been found in any de-classified MOD files. Cargill Hall’s article on Pre-U-2 Cold War Overflights probably contains the most detail on the Kapustin Yar mission, yet it is still not proved possible to confirm the details quoted by cross-reference to any de-classified documents. Just as importantly no individual involved in the sortie has ever publically admitted taking part.

You mention that WH726 was flown to Hanscom Field to have the 100inch camera fitted in 1953. Can you clarify the source for this trip and the date, because as far as I know, the only date that can be positively confirmed is when the 240inch bomb camera was fitted to WH726 in March 1954.

Also the date you quote for the overflight, 28 Aug 53, is very specific, and I assume you believe that the crew of WH726 who undertook the flight on 27th Aug, Wg Cdr Freddie Ball, Sqn Ldr Don Kenyon and Sgt Jim Brown were the crew that made the Kapustin Yar overflight? Yet in the 540 Sqn ORB the sorties undertaken on 28 Aug 53 by these two aircraft are shown as only lasting 2hrs. I haven’t researched what medals they ended up when they finally retired, but this may give a clue.

The quoted use of Giebelstadt for the start of the sortie is very unusual, particularly as Akrotiri or Incirlick and even a base in Iran would have been much closer and an entry point into the USSR from the south would have encountered far less radar coverage. I think the use of Giebelstadt may be directly linked to the use of an American camera – mounting the sortie from there probably allowed the camera to be given a final once-over and calibrated by American technicians before the sortie took place.

Like you I also believe the crew of WH726 did undertake the overflight some time in the late summer of 1953, but given the secrecy and classification involved, no record would have been made in the ORB and it’s clear from the investigations undertaken by Chris Pocock that any reference to the flight has been very effectively expunged from de-classified files from this period. Sadly I suspect the actual file on this sortie was destroyed many years ago, so perhaps the best solution is to fall back on the Scottish legal judgement of ‘Not Proven’ until more positive confirmation eventually emerges.

I wish you every success in your forthcoming presentation and if you wish to use some of the photos in my article for your forthcoming presentation, or I can assist you in any other way, just let me know.

Heimdall

[VIProds]

Heimdall

Many thanks. I used your excellent paper on "Spyflight" for Operation Ju Jitsu and Operation Robin as the basis of my investigation. You are right, I have all sorts of memo's and letters between Bomber Command, Air Ministry, The Secretary of State, The Cabinet and the PM (thanks Dave) on Operation Ju Jitsu, but not a sausage on Operation Robin.

The only two official mentions are in a Memo from Bomber Command to Air Ministry stating that "we will have to wait until late 1952 before a Canberra PR3. will be ready". Also, in John Crampton's article where there is a very professional looking chart of Europe and Russia, showing the three routes for the April 1954 Operation Ju Jitsu mission, but also for the August 1953 route (WH726) which starts at Giebelstadt and follows John Crampton's out leg i.e. Giebelstadt - Prague - Krakow - Kiev - Karkov and Stalingrad.

I took the information on the more powerful Rolls Royce Avon-109 engines from the CIA Archives, a document entitled "The CIA and the U-2 Program" by Gregory W. Pedlow & Donald E. Welzenbach Chapter 1 Page 5.

Cargill Hall asserts that "the RAF flight was part of Operation Robin and flown by a Canberra B2. carrying a 100 inch lens. It took off in late August 1953 from Giebelstadt, Germany" Paul Lashmar contacted former 540 Sqn aircrew and states that Fl Lt Gingell remembers flying WH726 to the US in Spring 1954. The RAF Wyton ORB confirmed that this aircraft departed 1st March 1954 for six weeks.

Again from the CIA Archives on page 189 of "Intelligence and National Security". Chris Pocock checked RAF Wyton ORB to see "On 1st March 1954 No58 Sqn sent Fl Lt DC Downs and Fl Lt J Gingell to the US for Operation Robin, originally planned as a two-week joint RAF/USAF trial, but extended to six weeks. They returned on 10th April 1954 and during this month WH726 was attached to the Squadron for Operation Robin. Cargill Hall has photographs of WH726 being modified to take the 240 inch camera and even though they are not dated, Chris Pocock believes they were taken in 1954.

The Public Records Office, Air/1106 (Project Robin) has three papers still missing, but a Memo from June 1955 (to & from the Vice - Chief of Air Staff) reveals that "Robin" received UK Political approval in June 1953. A specially modified Canberra fitted with an American 240 inch focal length lens camera would be used to photograph special targets near the Russian Border and Satellite frontiers. The flights would be 10 miles inside Western airspace. Neatly missing out the deep penetration to Kapustim Yar.

[SirToppamHat]

I have been asked by VIProds to post the following picture, and am happy to do so:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d23/SirToppamHat/OperationRobin.jpg

Sorry for the delay VIProds.

STH

[VIProds]

Many thanks STH

I believe this chart to be from the USAF, as it show Fairford, Sculthorpe and Giebelstadt which were all American Air Force Bases.

In the Key on the top left corner, it shows the April 1954 "Ju Jitsu" mission, but inadvertantly also shows the August 1953 "Robin" mission, not only that you can see that the Robin mission starts at Giebelstadt and follows a similar route to John Crampton's out leg i.e.

Giebelstadt - Prague - Krakow - Kiev - Kharkov & Stalingrad.

[Heimdall]

VIProds

I'm not sure exactly when this map first appeared, but it did not accompany John Crampton's first article on Op Ju-Jitsu entitled 'Russian Photo Shoot' in the Aug 1997 edition of Air Pictorial.

As far as I am aware a version of this map first appeared in Cargill Hall's article 'The Truth about Overflights' in the Spring 1997 edition of 'The Quarterly Journal of Military History'. The map accompanying this article also includes the route of the Fairford based RB-47E's overflight of Murmansk in May 1954. It's in this article that Cargill Hall gives the most detailed account of the overflight of Kapustin Yar, including the month, Aug 1953, that he believes it occured, but he does not mention a specific date.

Of course it's interesting to speculate why Cargill Hall, who after all was the National Reconnaissance Office historian for many years, would choose to include so much detail if the flight never actually took place?

Heimdall

[VIProds]

Heimdall

You are right, I never scanned any of the photographs or charts from John Cramptons article. I created a folder and saved them electronically from other sources, as they were were the same photos that appeared in the article, as you rightly said, there was no chart, sorry for any confussion. I have removed any mention of it appearing in the article. I actually got the chart and some of the photos from data-freeway. com

[Radarrecce]

I was fascinated to pick up this reference to RB-45 recce flights and to Mr Llewelyn. I would like to make email contact with the writer of this particular entry if he recalls Lew as I am writing a life History of him.
Many thanks in advance.

[VIProds]

Cutaway of the North American RB-45http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae59/VIProds/RB-45C.jpg

[VIProds]

Photo of the four Special Duty Flight RB-45C's. Lined up are the nine RAF Aircrew including Sqd Ldr John Crampton and Fl Lt Rex Saunders. Also in line are the Strategic Reconnaisance Wing including Colonal 'Hak' Mixson.
http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae59/VIProds/RAFCrewsRB-45Cs.jpg

[VIProds]

I have just given a talk to the North Lincs. Aircrew Association on The RAF & the U-2 and it seemed to go down very well, so ian16th has very kindly said that he will magic it onto this thread - many thanks Ian.

[forget]

Wiki says "The B-45C was the first jet aircraft capable of aerial refueling". 1950 ish.

Something tells me this isn't right. Ideas?

[Pontius Navigator]

On 7th August 1949, the Meteor flown by FRL test pilot Pat Hornidge took-off from Tarrant Rushton and, refulled ten times by the Lancaster tanker, remained airborne for 12 hours and 3 minutes, receiving 2,352 gallons of fuel from the tanker in ten tanker contacts and flying an overall distance of 3,600 miles, achieving a new jet endurance record

Wikipedia does not say if this was the first jet to be refuelled but reading on it looks likely.

The first B-45C was flown on May 3, 1949. Only ten were built, and the remaining 33 under construction were converted to RB-45Cs.

Would the B45C have trialled inflight refuelling in just 4 months?

[ian16th]

This is from VIProds. I only did a bit to save him keying it all into his PC again.


I wasn't sure whether to put this on tartanterror's thread or not, but felt that this was one of the subjects that I started on this thread, so here goes.

When the RAF flew the Operation Ju Jitsu and Operation Robin missions, Britain and the United States realized that there was an urgent need for accurate mapping of the Soviet Union, as there were many Bomber Bases and Missile Sites that they were unaware of. Because of the slow advance of Soviet technology, it was felt that if an aircraft could fly at 70,000ft that it would be immune to Russian Missiles and Fighter Aircraft, for the foreseeable future.

In May 1953, a formal proposal was made for the design of an aircraft which could fly at 70,000ft, have a radius of 1,500NM and have a payload of between 100lbs and 700lbs. The Wright Air Command at Dayton Ohio did not seek proposals from the larger aircraft companies, thinking that a smaller company would give this project a higher priority.

In July 1953, “Bell” and “Fairchild” received “Study Contracts”. At the same time Martin, who were manufacturing the Canberra under license from English Electric, known as the Martin B-57. Were also offered a Study Contract, to try and improve the ceiling of this aircraft and mentioned the possibility of extending the length of the wings. Word got out to Lockheed who submitted an unsolicited Kelly Johnston design. Kelly Johnston was one of the worlds leading aeronautical engineers and was responsible for the “Constellation”, the “P38” and the “F104 Starfighter”.

Kelly Johnston's design was to include the fuselage and engine of the F104 and to marry it to high aspect ratio, high lift wings as used in glider aircraft (called sail planes in the US). He also used other glider techniques so the wings were detachable as was the whole rear section of the fuselage and was attached by only three pressure bolts. To help reduce the weight Johnston only stressed the aircraft to 2.5 G's which would be similar to commercial airliner stressing as opposed to the Military spec of 5.33 G's. The aircraft had cycle landing gear with the main wheel in the nose section of the fuselage and a secondary wheel at the rear of the fuselage. At the end of the high aspect ratio wings were skids when it came into land. Lockheed called the aircraft the U-2. and said that it would be able to fly at the stipulated 70,000ft, have a radius of 2,000NM and carry a payload of 600lbs, which would be for surveillance cameras and electronic intelligence gathering equipment.

The U-2 proposal was rejected by the Military because they felt that if a single engine aircraft was overflying the middle of Russia and it's only engine flamed out, all hell would let lose. They also didn't like it as it didn't have conventional landing gear. Lockheed shopped around trying to find supporters for the U-2. They even approached the CIA, but the CIA did not get involved in overflights, they only advised the Military on them. The proposal was shown to Richard Bissell, who was involved with “Operation Robin” when he was the CIA officer in charge of overflights. Richard Bissell had just been promoted to the Assistant Director of the CIA and was involved with a very powerful Scientific Committee set up by President Eisenhower .

Partly because the successful “Operation Robin” where a modified Canberra Reconnaissance aircraft flew out of a USAF Base on the East German Border and was able to take high altitude photographs of the missile production site at Kapustin Yar and the fact that an American Diplomat who was being flown into Moscow, spotted a new Soviet jet bomber, which was later given the NATO designation of “Bison”. This dismayed Capitol Hill and the Pentagon as they had underestimated how fast the Russians were advancing their technology. The President therefor agreed to fund the U-2. Program so long as it was run by the CIA.

Kelly Johnston had the U-2. Flying within one year. In 1955. Lockheed were building the U-2. at their famous “Skunk Works” at Burbank, California. It was very a secure facility and only people with the very highest clearance were allowed in there. The aircraft would soon be ready for flying and testing so Burbank wasn't really the place to start flying a top secret aircraft. Lockheed started flying around the Yucca Flats in the Nevada Desert where American Nuclear Bomb testing took place, looking for an isolated spot that they could fly without prying eyes. The map of Yucca Flats was sectioned up into areas, where they would be able to identify where the tests would take place.

They flew over an area that seemed ideal, it was a salt bed in a dip with mountains all around. The place was called Groom Lake and on the Yucca Flats map, they were in “Area 51” which has since become famous for top secret projects. Lockheed now had to start shipping in men and materials to Groom Lake by road to start building a runway. Once that runway was built it was a lot easier as they could now fly in supplies and prefabricated buildings and hangers, creating an infrastructure. The CIA had two civil jet passenger aircraft, so flew the engineers and construction worker from the nearest City, which was Las Vegas. these aircraft were code named “Janet”. At the “Skunk Works” they had three U-2's. Ready for flight testing so they packaged them up separately with the fuselage,wings and tail section and then wrapped them in canvas to stop prying eyes. These U-2's were flown into Groom Lake on board large transport aircraft.

Once the U-2's were unwrapped and assembled, this would be the first time that fuel would have flowed in the aircraft. The Test Pilot went through his various tests until he took off in the U-2. Once he came back into land the “ground effect” would not allow him to land, even though he had the engine at idle speed. The only way he could land was to stall the aircraft in from about two feet. This is the only way that you can land a U-2 and this became standard procedure.

Early in 1956, Richard Bissell, who incidentally was educated at Yale and The London School of Economics. Now we see why Bissell feels comfortable talking to and negotiating with the Brits. He held discussions with the British Foreign Minister, Selwyn Lloyd & MOD officials and obtained permission to base three U-2's in Britain, so in April 1956 “Detachment A” arrived at RAF Lakenheath in Suffolk. Unfortunately, their stay was very brief, as one month later, in May 1956, the Soviet Cruiser Ordzhonikicke arrived it Portsmouth harbour with Soviet Leaders, Nikita Krushchev and Bulganin on board for an official visit to Britain. When Buster Crabb's headless body was found in Portsmouth harbour, the Russians protested to the Prime Minister. Unfortunately, Anthony Eden threw a wobbly and sacked the Head of MI6, he also refused to allow the Americans to fly their U-2's out of Lakenheath on Soviet overflights, just to appease the Russians. On June 17th 1956, “Detachment A” was moved to Weisbaden in West Germany, but the whole Base was visible from the Autobahn, so shortly after “Detachment A” was moved to Giebelstadt, which was close to the East German Border. While at Gieblelstadt, the U-2's had an engine upgrade to the Pratt & Whitney J57 engine, which was much more powerful and had a lesser tendency to “flame outs” that the previous engine had. The aircraft was now designated the U-2A.

The US Military and especially Richard Bissell were very impressed with the RAF crews that took part in Operation Ju Jitsu and Operation Robin, as a result he arranged for four RAF Pilots to be trained on the U-2. This was also insurance for the program, in case the US President ever decided to refuse permission for US Pilots to overfly the Soviet Union. Bissell would ask the British Prime Minister (as he had done before) if the RAF would fly the mission and had always received an affirmative answer.

In early 1958, four RAF Pilots started U-2 training at Laughlin AFB, Texas. The code name for the four RAF Pilots was “Jackson”. The four were, Sqd Ldr Christopher Walker, Fl Lt John McArther, Fl Lt David Dowling and Fl Lt Michael Bradley. Unfortunately, on July 9th 1958, Sqd Ldr Walker was killed in a U-2 crash. His place was taken by Sdn Ldr Robert Robinson.

In January 1959, 4 x U-2's, 4 x RAF Pilots, 7 x CIA Pilots and 200 x CIA Support Crew were moved to “Detachment B” at Incerlik in Turkey, where they flew missions and overflights until the Russians built a very powerful surveillance Radar in Syria. The Russians could see the U-2's as soon as they took off and could then start tracking them. The plan then was for any overflight missions that the RAF pilots would ferry the U-2's to Peshawar in Pakistan, where there was no surveillance Radar. On a typical day of an over flight, the Pilot would get up at 2:30am, have a special breakfast then sit down for two hours breathing pure oxygen to purge his system of nitrogen, which would give him the “Bends”, he would then take off at 5am.

Only two Soviet overflights were carried out by the RAF in U-2's. Both needed the permission of the British Prime Minister. On December 6th 1959, Sqd Ldr Robbie Robinson took off from Peshawar in Pakistan and flew North over Tyuratam, Kyshtym, Engels Airfield near Saratov, Kapustin Yar (that rings a bell) and the Bomber Factory at Kuybyshev and exeted Soviet airspace over the Black Sea and recovered to Incerlik in Turkey.

On February 5th 1960, this was the 22nd U-2 Soviet overflight mission. Flt Lt John McArthur also flew out of Peshawar in Pakistan. He headed North West over the Aral Sea looking for missile sites, but discovered a new Soviet Bomber at Kazam. Eight TU-22 Blinder aircraft were captured on film. He turned down the Volga River over the missile factory at Dnepropetrovsk. After leaving Soviet airspace at Servastopol and recovered to Incerlik in Turkey.

The “Detachment B” Commander had planned for a CIA pilot to fly a mission on 1st May 1960. Robbie Robinson went to see him and asked if he knew the significance of the 1st of May and the Russian people, especially as the route went very close to Moscow, where they would be holding the May Day parade. Unfortunately, the Detachment Commander still decided to go ahead with the Mission. So, on the 1st May 1960, Garry Powers went through the usual preflight procedures. His route was to fly out of Peshawar in Pakistan, fly all the way across Russia and exit soviet airspace at Murmansk, then recover to Bono in Finland. This was a ten hour mission, which was about the maximum duration that a U-2 could fly without refueling. While only 4.5 hours into the Mission The Russians sent up a salvo of three SAM-2 missiles. The first one fell short of the target, the second shot down a chasing Mig Fighter and the third one exploded just behind Powers U-2 blowing off the whole tail section of the aircraft. Unfortunately, Powers had just previously loosened off his ejector seat straps. Because the aircraft had gone into a pancake spin, Powers was pinned to the side of the cockpit because of the centrifugal force. He couldn't activate the ejector seat as he was hanging half way out of it. He managed to jettison the canopy, he went to undo his ejector seat straps in preparation to activate the “Self destruct switches” before parting the cockpit. As soon as he released his straps, he was sucked out of the aircraft by the centrifugal force and was only attached by his oxygen hose with the self destruct switches still unarmed. Eventually, the oxygen hose snapped and he fell away from the U-2. After falling several thousand feet, his chute opened automatically.

After 10 hours had passed, it was realized that Powers had not recovered to Bono in Norway, the U.S. Put out a press release that one of their high altitude weather aircraft had gone missing near the Soviet Border. The RAF pilots had a cover story if they were shot down and survived or had to land in the Soviet Union. They would say that the aircraft was in autopilot, they had Oxygen problems and became unconscious and that is why they had strayed into Soviet airspace. The CIA pilots on the other hand did not have a cover story, but when Powers was captured, he was reported to have used the RAF cover story. The Soviets waited ten days before announcing that they had shot down an American spyplane. Khrushchev was playing a canny game. On the twelfth day after Power's had been shot down, Khrushchev announced that Powers was alive and had admitted to spying.

Sqd Ldr Robinson and the three other RAF pilots were told to get lost for a few months by the CIA as the Turkish Government were not aware that they were in the Country. They all went back to London and were called to a meeting at Air Ministry with the Secretary of State for Air, Sir George Ward. He wanted to know if Powers would reveal the British U-2. Involvement to his Soviet interrogators. There had been hints in the Press that there had been close co-operation. In the end Ward decided to neither confirm or deny. Robinson went off to Spain for a few months and gave his home Base as Inserlik to protect and conceal Pakistan's roll in the missions. Flt Lt McArthur returned to Carnwell and some of the, then Students reported that he looked very nervous and edgy, but they were not aware of what he had been doing at that time.

After a year had passed, things had quietened down so the program was resurrected, so in March 1961 Sqd Ldr Ivan(Chunky)Webster and Fl Lt Charles(Taffy)Taylor converted to the U-2. and were situated at North Base on Edwards AFB, Calf. Webster asked if he could extent his exchange posting on U-2's and was refused. He resigned his Commission and joined Lockheed as a Civilian pilot. He was later involved in test flights on US Aircraft Carriers with the U-2R. The CIA wanted to use the U-2's to monitor the forthcoming French Nuclear tests in the South Pacific. Three years later, Sqd Ldr Basil Dodd and Fl Lt Martin Bee converted to the U-2. And finally, in 1967 Flt Lt Richard (Dick) Cloke and Flt Lt Harry Drew converted to the U-2R. For five months, between August 1970 and December 1970 they were on detachment in Akrotiri, Cyprus. They flew daily along the Suez Canal monitoring the cease fire between Egypt and Israel. But I am assured that they were not there, really. I am told that there were large black weather balloons, that were rather noisy !!

Next year, we will be coming up to Sixty years that the RAF have been flying clandestine missions with the CIA and the USAF. We started with eleven RAF Aircrew in 1951, flying over to the States to be trained on the North American RB-45C, Tornado then returned to the UK and “borrowed” a total of eight RB-45C's and had them painted in RAF colours and roundals and flew a total of six deep penetration missions into the heart of Russia. We then follow on to the Canberra that the Wright Air Command persuaded English Electric to install more powerful engines, which they did and the ceiling went from 47,00ft to an amazing 65,000ft. One of the Canberra's had extra fuel tanks fitted in the bomb bay and flew to Hascom Field in the States to have a 100inch oblique camera fitted in the rear fuselage. This aircraft took off from an American Air Force Base on the East German Border and flew all the way to Stalingrad and took high altitude photographs of the missile production and testing sites at Kapustin Yar. We then have eleven RAF pilots that were trained on and flew missions in the U-2. Spyplane. Following on from that, we have the CIA A-12 Oxcart / USAF SR71 Blackbird – ZILCH, NOTHING. I have only heard a couple of unsubstantiated rumors, that two RAF pilots flew the Blackbird, but nothing else. Following on from that we have the B2 Stealth Bomber, where for the past six years RAF pilots have been flying the B2. In fact Sqd Ldr Jon Killerby is just coming to the end of his three year exchange posting and is a Qualified Flying Instructor on the B2 Stealth.

If any of you know anything about RAF involvement in Oxcart / Blackbird I would be obliged if you could post it or if you are uncomfortable with that PM me, no matter how small or insignificant you may think it is - thanks


Again, like Operation Robin I had great difficulty in getting documented evidence on this side of the “pond” I would like to thank tartanterror and again hemindall for some really useful information. I was also able to use Paul Lashmar's interview with Robbie Robinson and the CIA Archives. Also, many thanks to ian16th for waving his magic wand over this story to make it magically appear on this thread.

VIProds

[John Farley]

I am sorry to have to tell you that John Crampton died on Saturday last after a short illness.

John Farley

[John Farley]

One day the phone rang in my office at Dunsfold and on the other end was the leading UK spy pilot of the Cold War period who wanted to know if I would help him with a plan he was hatching. It was 1972 and I had no hesitation in saying yes.

To understand my keenness to help, you need to know that the voice belonged to Sqn Ldr John Crampton DFC AFC and Bar RAF (Rtd) then Kingston’s Technical Sales Manager for the Harrier. On no fewer than three occasions in the early 1950s John had been the CO of an RAF Special Duties flight charged with deep penetration flights over the Soviet Union, flights desperately needed to obtain radar pictures of key targets for subsequent use by western bomb aimers in the event of WWIII.

The flight was equipped for this job with three USAF RB-45C four jet reconnaissance aircraft plus a spare that was never needed. At that time US politicians were unhappy at the thought of the mayhem that could follow the shooting down of any normal USAF aircraft flying uninvited over the USSR. Enter John and his team, plus a lot of mystified RAF airmen using gallons of paint stripper to remove all markings from some US aircraft in an empty West Raynham hangar. Naturally the detailed account of those trips would be much more interesting to you than any Harrier story of mine, but that is a tale that should be told only by the man himself.

It is interesting to look back on how John’s colleagues regarded him in the early 1970s. I don’t think many had any appreciation of his secret past. Some knew that he had been the CO of the RAF’s first Canberra squadron, in itself no minor thing to have on one’s CV, but small beer compared to the responsibility of executing the overflight missions. So how do you stop colleagues picking up clues about your past exploits as a spy pilot? Well, all you need to be is a two metre tall ex Harrovian with a natural conversational manner suited to playing the lead in a social farce in a London theatre. In short the sort of bloke who makes Hugh Grant seem like a builder’s labourer. One of our best operational pilots? Him? Great cover.

However, make no mistake, John Crampton sold the Harrier to the Spanish Navy. In doing this he was helped by a Spanish friend with great contacts at the top of that service but he most certainly did not have any help from John Glasscock, the Director and General Manager of Kingston and Dunsfold and his boss. Indeed, that worthy gentleman, when presented with John’s original plan, refused to even pay for his air fare to Madrid, causing John to hitch a lift in an HS 125 biz jet that was going out from Hatfield. This lack of help from his boss was actually perfectly reasonable because at the time our Government had broken off diplomatic relations with the Spanish Government over Gibraltar.

There was also the major problem that a Spanish Act of Parliament explicitly prohibited their Navy from operating fixed wing aircraft as this was deemed to be the job of the Air Force. Overall the idea of a Harrier deal with the Spanish Navy was just not sensible but then neither was flying all over the USSR at .65M and 35,000 ft twenty years earlier and as we know John had cracked that, hence my desire to help him.



John Farley

[John Farley]

Taken on Dedalo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/AconvoyofAdmiralsonDdalo.jpg

[VIProds]

Saddened to hear about John. I had been corresponding with John up until the end of last year, what a wonderfull gentleman. John spoke of his love of his ex-Birkin 2.9 Maserati, which he had turned into a sports car.

John was toying with with the idea of writing a part fact and part fiction book on the events of Operation Ju Jitsu, which I tried to persuade him to do.

" Thanks for the strawberry ref Sticky and Ivan. I had in mind to do a book, THE RAF SPECIAL DUTY FLIGHT, 1951 - 1954, Fact and Fiction. The facts would be based on my paper to the RAF Historical Society (cleared by the MOD) and the fiction would be my Sticky and Ivan story telling how (perhaps) the Russians got to know about my 1954 sortie".

John later sent me a synopsis of his fact and fiction story, but it will be up to the family wether it is published or not.

I am just glad that "Air Pictorial" was able to publish "Russian photo-shoot" which shows the gallantry of these brave Airmen.

[Tocsin]

Sorry to hear about Sqn Ldr Crampton - I was hoping to hear more on this excellent thread.

For info, many of the RAF Historical Society journals have been published on the RAF Museum website, under the Research tab (ref. VIProds' quote above).

[Royalistflyer]

I have a little public information on RAF F-117 pilots - is that appropriate on this thread?

[Lukeafb1]

I’m somewhat confused by a number of the replies in this thread, starting with VIPods mention of 7 aircrew in a Canberra in his starting entry. Since the maximum crew in any Mk of Canberra is 3 (B6, B15, B16 etc.) was this at least 3 flights (4 flights in a PR9)?

But later in the thread VIProds again appears to restrict flights to 1 (WH726’s ). Heimdall also appears to be indicating that only one flight took place. This was either a very large Canberra, the facts appear to be incorrect or I have misread something.

Apologies if I have missed any replies which clear up this discrepancy.

Can someone clarify please?

[VIProds]

Lukeafb1

Sorry for any confusion. You are correct, there was only one Canberra that flew the mission. The normal procedure was that a chase plane would follow the Canberra to see if there was any tell tale "Contrail".

WH726
Wg Cdr A.W.H. (Freddie) Ball
Sqd Ldr W.N. (Don) Kenyon
Sgt A.J. (Jim) Brown

WJ574
Fl Lt Garside
Fl Lt Shield (27th August)
Fl Lt Reeve (28th August)
Sgt Wigglesworth

27th August 1953 Daytime practice flight by WH726 & WJ574 to check if there was a contrail at operating height.

28th August 1953 Both Wh726 & WJ574 took off from Giebelstadt, again WJ574 was to check for a contrail then turned back to Giebelstadt while WH726 carried on with the mission.

[Heimdall]

Like everyone else who has researched John Crampton's role in Op Ju Jitsu, I was sorry to hear of his death. Unfortunately I missed the RAF Historical Society meeting where he gave his original presentation about the mission, but from reading the subsequent report he appears to be very matter of fact about the risks involved.

If the experiences of various US crews who were shot down by Soviet forces during the 1950s is anything to go by, had any of the RB-45C crews been shot down they would have shared a similar fate and would probably have been imprisioned and then perished in some frozen Gulag. For the first mission very few of the crews knew what was involved until they were briefed on the purpose of the flights. It says much about the courage of these individuals that, having in some cases survived WW2, they were prepared to risk their lives again.

Some months ago I exchanged e-mails with Roland White, the author of Vulcan 607 and Phoenix Squadron, and I suggested that if he was looking around for new subject to form the basis of his next book, he could do a lot worse than considering Op Ju-Jitsu, particularly while some of those involved are still alive - it would certainly be more riviting than Phoenix Squadron.

Of course there are still many RAF overflights of the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe that have still not been acknowledged. The PR Mosquito and Canberra flights into southern Russia in the late 1940's and 1950s and various sorties out of Germany and the UK in the same time period. A bit like the Canberra sortie over Kapustin Yar, the official records have either been purged or destroyed, but perhaps someone will still come forward to shed new light on what actually happened.

Heimdall

[Lukeafb1]

VI Prods,

Thanks for the clarification. With some surprise, your reply also reminds me that I flew with Don Kenyon more than once. Nice guy from what I remember in my advancing dotage!

[the_tartanterror]

Sorry to hear of John's passing. Sadly another of the greats from British Aviation history has taken his last flight.

It would be a fitting tribute to his memory if his memoirs/book were published.

RIP
The TT

[Harley Quinn]

Heard an interview with Ken Wallis at lunchtime on R4 where he hinted* he had carried out incursions over the German borders in one of his creations. Anyone able to throw some light on this?

*Actually said something along the lines that he was 'contracted to go over the East German border by the British government'.

[John Farley]

John Crampton's funeral will be held on Thursday 1 July 12 noon at Guildford Cathedral.

[VIProds]

Anne Turner has said that the family would like the funeral to be a celebration of John's life. Anne and Emma, would like to have a book of fond memories for people to read at the funeral.

If you knew John and would like to e-mail Anne at: annie.turner44 @ hotmail.co,uk so that Anne and Emma can paste up the book in time.

[denachtenmai]

Super thread, slightly off track though, istr that we had a F.Lt. Michael Bradley flying Canberra's on 51 in the 60's, anyone know if it was the same guy?
Regards, Den.

[redsetter]

Always found it slightly surprising that WH726 would be considered for the Kapustin Yar sortie. I've always understood the Robin camera was designed for oblique work, looking over borders. Not really much point in standing-off from Kapustin Yar since the aircraft was already deep inside Soviet airspace (and I don't think the Soviets had SAMs in those days?). You'd have thought a PR.3 with a fan of F.52s flying directly over the site would have been a better bet (and the PR.3 had longer range as well).

[coldair]

Fantastic reading so far, please keep memories and anecdotes comming. :ok:

However, I'd love to hear about over flights of the UK by Soviet air crews.

Is there anyone out there who could start a new thread about this ? It would make great reading.

Hats off to all you guys who did this dangerous and exciting work for us :D

[Green Flash]

So, has there been any overflights by the Russians of UK airspace a la Ju Jitsu and the like? I'm sure that at the height of the cold war a few Aeroflot cabs had cameras running but where there any actual sneaky-beaky incursions? Anything official? Anecdotal? Mate-of-a-mate? Or were they all ridden off abeam Saxa Vord? I can't recollect any stories of Bears wazzing down Aldershot high street. Or are the Black Omegas allready drawing up outside? :eek: (The Backfire? off Scarborough and Open Skies excepted)

[Heimdall]

There were a number of occasions during the Cold War when Aeroflot aircraft ‘accidently’ strayed off-route over East Anglia when inbound to London, presumably to photograph the various US and UK bases concentrated in that area. Many Aeroflot aircraft were fitted with cameras and, given the relatively small size of the UK and the location of the civil airways, it’s fairly safe to assume that they obtained most if not all of the photos they needed by simply flying along airways during the summer months. All Warsaw Pact civil aircraft were tracked by the UK Fighter Controller organisation but, to the best of my knowledge, little if any action was taken when they went a bit off-route.

More significantly the Soviets lacked a long range high-level reconnaissance aircraft with the capabilities of the U-2. They did build the Yakovlev Yak-25RD Mandrake, which probably overflew various Middle East countries, China, India and Pakistan but lacked the performance to risk overflying the NATO countries, where it cruised along the boundaries instead. Had the Mandrake ever tried to overfly the US from say Cuba, I doubt it would have got very far. The Russians also tried to reverse engineer the U-2, but failed to produce an aircraft of similar performance. Instead the Russians relied on satellite reconnaissance and probably friendly agents in a C-172 overflying areas of interest early on a Sunday morning to take a few photos.

Heimdall

[forget]

The Russians also tried to reverse engineer the (add name of aircraft)

This always makes me smile. Which particular 'western' aircraft company is Sukhoi currently using for its reverse engineering?

[ollietree]

Hello,

I am a journalist working for The Mail on Sunday and was wondering if anyone here had more information on civilian aircraft being used for covert over flight work.

This can be from any time, and from any angle,

i.e. anyone involved in actually clambering into the bowls of civilian airliners to take the pictures or any one else involved in the practice in what ever capacity.

It is a fascinating practice and one that I feel would lend itself to well to a Sunday newspaper spread.

It would also be a fitting tribute to the nameless servicemen who undertook such dangerous work in the course of serving their country.

Any information supplied will be treated with the strictest confidence.

Oliver Tree

07876436290

[Yellow Sun]

Dear Oliver,

Here is your starting point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Cotton) and unless I am very much mistaken your finishing point as well.

YS

[teeteringhead]

Oliver

there may be something lurking on the SpyFlight (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/main.htm) site,which is run by our own dear Heimdall.

Alternatively, a PM to Heimdall might be useful .....

[VIProds]

Just to clean-up the RAF involvement with the U-2 story. I have been communicating with a USAF pilot who used to fly the SR-71 Blackbird. He has taken it upon himself to keep a log of everyone that flew in the A12 Oxcart / SR-71 Blackbird & has confirmed that there was no RAF involvement in eith Oxcart or Blackbird.

I mentioned to him about the eleven RAF pilots that converted to & flew missions in the U-2. He wrote back "Don't you mean the 13 RAF pilots"? & sent me a list of all 741 pilots that flew the U-2 between 1955 & 2001. Sure enough, there were two extra names on the list that I hadn't heard about before. Sqd Ldr Ian McBride, who converted in 1971 & Sqd Ldr Ronald Shimmons, who converted in 1972.

[langleybaston]

Does anyone know who provided Met for these penetrations?

I ask because I had to be cleared to an unusual level when I was appointed to a post which had line management of a Met Office where all the forecasters had to be similarly cleared. For what it is worth, none of them ever leaked anything to my knowledge.

So I know very very little!

[Maury Markowitz]

I hope you don't mind me dropping in out of the blue here, and responding to a very very very long thread, but here goes:

To start with, I've watch a program that I seem to recall had Vulcans over the USSR. Is this not the case? According to the postings here, I seem to have mis-recalled this, I'm certain I saw the "Timewatch" episode mentioned on this page.

Ok, some notes:

tonytech2:

Soviet aircraft made overflights deep into Canada on a regular basis, or at least so we were told. Bears were common occurrences, and have become one again more recently. These were common enough that the MIDIZ was (is?) enforced throughout and many "interceptions" were carried out over the southern area of Canada.

In one incident I remember during the 1980s, F-4's from somewhere in upstate NY broke Mach above our home near Bradford Ontario. I slept through the incident, but a friend in town though it was the local steel plant blowing up. In this case it was a locally registered airliner.

Barnstormer/VIProds:

I don't understand how the presence of flak suggests some sort of spy activity. Certainly the Germans had no problem greeting Bomber Command and the USAAF with lots of flak in precisely the same way, and I don't know of anyone suggesting they were being tipped off by anything other than radar. That there would be flak around Kiev, and that it would have radar, hardly seems surprising or indicative of something nefarious.

Is there something special about this that does make this suggestion?

VIProds:

"Some other reports say that WH726 was shot at & hit, but this seems to dispel that"

I wonder if there is some confusion with the MiG-17 intercepts of the US RB-47s?

"when we invented & developed the first Jet engine"

No no no, you need to disabuse yourself of this, it's wrong. See:

Timeline of jet power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_jet_power)

And don't tell me not to trust it, I wrote it after *considerable* effort.

Pontius Navigator:

"I suspect the penetration was actually against the mid-Canada Line and not the DEW line."

I suspect it was neither - both DEW and the MCL date to 1957. I believe, strongly, that the radars in question were the Pinetree Line, one of which is at Goose Bay (C-24). These were *very* simple pulse-radar stations, perfect for jamming. The MCL line was a bistatic CW doppler system, definitely a different beast entirely.

Gainesy:

So, what is the hole in question? Storage for what?

[peterbgunn]

I am researching the history of RAF Sculthorpe and was very interested in the latter sent by Squadron Leader John Crampton about the secret overflights. Is it possible for me to quote some of this material in my planned book?

[Wander00]

Saw from latest Flypast that Bob McA Furze had died recently - my A Sqn squadron commander when I was a cadet at Cranwell - would have been a interesting bit of info had we known about his past interesting career. RIP

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe, strongly, that the radars in question were the Pinetree Line, one of which is at Goose Bay (C-24). These were *very* simple pulse-radar stations, perfect for jamming. The MCL line was a bistatic CW doppler system, definitely a different beast entirely.

Gainesy:

So, what is the hole in question? Storage for what?

Maury, I am sure you are right about Pinetree.

Gainesy is now in a far far better place and you will need to wait for some little time before you might meet again. RIP.

[VIProds]

PN Sorry to hear about Gainesy.

I have just been informed by a friend (ex Wing Commander Canberra pilot) that Two other RAF pilots were trained & converted to the Lockheed U-2.

In November 1958, Brian Cox & Bunny Austin were converting to the U-2. Bunny married while they were on the conversion course, which ruled him out of U-2 ops.

Brian went to Halton from Laughlin AFB on holding. In March 1960 he received a 'phone call saying that he was to return to U-2 & then another saying "to stand down again" after Gary Powers was shot down.

Everything went quiet, so Brian also married on 31/12/60, so the next U-2 pilot was Webster in March 1961.

So, we now have up to 15 RAF pilots that converted to the U-2. TWO RAF pilots converted to the B-2 Stealth Bomber & NO RAF involvement on the A12 Oxcart / SR71 Blackbird - unless you know otherwise ?

[giblets]

Plus 8 to fly the F-117 (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/288172-raf-f-117-pilots.html) (plus two who had a few flights)

[chopd95]

In similar vein. Sqdn Ldr M E Bee OC C at Towers. Well known as Lightning pilot , but no mention of U2 AFIR ?

[VIProds]

Chopd95 I have got Sqdn Ldr Martin E Bee as the 189th person to convert to the U-2 on 18th June 1964.

[coldair]

Interesting de-classified PDF form the NSA;

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/cryptologic_quarterly/maybe_you_had_to_be_there.pdf

SIGINT on 13 Shootdowns of US 'Spy Planes'




coldair

[DownWest]

This thread a bit old, but tripped over it in a another search.
I had quite a long chat with Harry Broardhurst a few years ago in the Algarve. He talked about his involvement in 'sniffing ops' with Canberras on the southern USSR boarders, before the US decided to 'takeover' and ran the U2 overflys. He said they all knew it was just a question of time before they would get caught. He also talked about the Heathrow crash, and his call from Curtis LeMay while he was recovering from ejecting at 80ft. M-B seats became the choice for F-104s.
A friend who flew fast jets gave me the other side of the coin about his rep in the force.
DW

[Bratman91]

This is a very belated response to mike1964's post early on in this thread, in which he says: "I understand that Pembrokes (and perhaps other liaison types) flying into/out of Berlin during the Cold War were used for surreptitious reconnaissance" .

He is quite right. I was in the MOD in the late 1970s and early 1980s and saw many of the photos that were taken while flying along the corridor to and from Berlin. The photos would typically be annotated with a description of what was photographed eg. T-64 tank, ZSU-23-4 or MiG-21, although they were often of more mundane objects. I remember a series of fairly good quality "snaps" taken of a nudist camp, showing mixed groups playing volleyball. The photos were annotated simply as SSNB which we later learned meant Soft Skinned Naked Bodies.

[carlrsymington]

There was an earlier request to ask for input on eastern bloc airlines covertly photographing NATO assets.
The Cessna on a Sunday morning made me smile.
I am interested because in the early 80's (16 year old) I heard rumours of the Tu-104 up to Tu 134 being used to photograph targets through the glazed nose. (obviously 104 being way back)

I am also aware of Brixmas (I might have met one of the participants, elder brother of a friend) so I wonder "Were the Eastern Bloc at this too?"

[diginagain]

I am also aware of Brixmas (I might have met one of the participants, elder brother of a friend) so I wonder "Were the Eastern Bloc at this too?"BRIXMIS had its counterpart in SOXMIS, who did very similar things on NATO installations, training areas and vehicle movements. There's a lot of information on the Internet on both organisations, as well as a few publications. Interesting stuff.

[alisoncc]

Might be worth dropping in a comment here made by an oldie - well much older than me, made over lunch a couple of months back. No names or pack drill, but I understand he was in a position that offers some credibility to what he had to say.

He said much of the drama that ensued between the Soviets and the US during the '50's and '60's was just posturing. Whereas the Soviets had a very real separate agenda which was to take out the UK. By doing so it would have been relatively easy for them to extend the borders of the USSR all the way through Western Europe, to Lisbon through to Bordeaux. One suspects that with the UK and BAOR out of commission, there would have been little resistance from Germany, France, Italy, etc. They wouldn't have stood a chance against a Soviet blitzkreig.

Might be worthy of a separate topic "The USSR from Vladivostok to Lisbon" possibly including the Scandinavian countries, plus Greece, Switzerland, etc. etc. Without a doubt that would have been a worthwhile venture for those in the Kremlin calling the shots. Would the US have been prepared to get involved - I suspect not.

[Pontius Navigator]

alison, the US Joint Chiefs drafted a set of war plan scenarios in 1949 in expectation for war in 1957. One premise was a US first strike with B29s in cells with, IIRC, 2 weapons carriers and 7 escorts and decoys.

Having successfully attacked Russia they then examined the potential consequences. These included immediate capitulation and the need to occupy the USSR with own forces that were not fully mobilised. US forces would therefore have to consider commanding surviving defeated Soviet forces to garrison and recover post-strike.

Awesome stuff but no doubts that they would have attacked or countered Soviet attacks. If you want to read the plans look for Plan Dropshot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dropshot

[alisoncc]

I suspect the US Joint Chiefs didn't foresee their involvement in Vietnam. If the Soviets had picked their time and nuked London and say Manchester, and launched a blitzkreig through West Germany whilst the US was distracted with a proxy war against China, would the US really have been prepared to take on the Soviets as well? I think not.

Sometimes I get the impression that little credence is given to the part the UK armed forces played in the Cold War, particularly the air force. I very much doubt that the Soviets ever had any real intention of taking on the US - very little to gain, but the UK was a big fly in their ointment for total European wide domination.

[teeteringhead]

nuked London and say Manchester, ... and not forgetting some RAF airfields - UK and Germany - and C2 hubs.

London yes, not so sure about Manc.

[carlrsymington]

Back to the military use of civilian aircraft for nefarious activities.
I seem to remember hearing stories of soviet bloc airliners being a threat to NATO. The threat was that the USSR could have loaded commando \ Ranger forces onto civilian airliners and simultaneously stormed the likes of LHR, CDG, FRA etc while Spetznaz troops assaulted key airbases (other targets were available :p) either via helicopter, AN-24 etc , fake civilian protesters or parachute etc.
The main airports would have provided staging points for mechanized equipment, troops & helicopters etc.

I always watched Balkan IL-18, Tu-154 & Aviogenex Tu 134 disembarking at BFS with trepidation. The hordes were scary!!! Sunburnt, hungover & back in Belfast in the pouring July rain. Ivan would not have stood a chance!
:cool:

[Heathrow Harry]

aahh - THAT's why they introduced Duty Free on arrival!!!

The Red Hordes would get trapped there buying everything and trying to change their roubles for £............:ok:

[Old Bricks]

You may find interesting a book published in May 2015 - "Looking Down the Corridors: Allied Aerial Espionage over East Germany and Berlin 1945-1990" by Kevin Wright and Peter Jefferies. Available in hardback or Kindle. Covers UK, US and French corridor ops plus the local air activity over and around Berlin.

[Pontius Navigator]

Carl, there was a TV play back in B&W TV days, can't recall too much except it was during the Wilson Government and was something like Government Inspector. The Soviet aircraft landed at Carnaby and all the Russian advisors explained, all in identical rain coats, bowler hats, umbrellas and briefcases.they march in single file and perfect step.

[Wander00]

An episode from Monty Python surely.............

[mmitch]

Some Il-76 freighters had a glass 'cupola' on the tail which I believe could be fitted with guns. Aeroflot were a reserve force I remember.
In later years these could often be seen on freight runs into Manston...
mmitch.

[Innominate]

"The Soviet aircraft landed at Carnaby" - when Carnaby became an industrial estate, one of the first tenants was firm importing Lada cars.

[27mm]

One of the WSO instructors on 228 OCU (T+8, sadly departed) used to get stick for driving a Lada. His response was "Well, the people that make them have kept me in a job until now".

[BEagle]

Innominate, indeed that firm did so. They also fitted cheap vinyl clad roofs to the cars - when someone asked whether this was to make them look more luxurious, the answer was given that it was necessary to cover the bumps and dents occasioned by the ship crews taking a short cut by walking across the top of them.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

This thread has been a most interesting read and, until I made a little more research on the web, I subsequently learn that one of the Op Ju Jitsu crew was Flight Engineer who I met some years ago; Joe Acklam. Back in the seventies Joe was a Squadron Leader with the Air Transport Command Checking Unit and, after a very short debrief upon my performance (he jumped my route in Gander to conduct a "surprise Route Check" whilst en-route to, I think, Barksdale), we took to the bar for a couple of cold beers. I recall at that time that he was getting on his years and he did mention that he flew the B-29... followed by flying a certain turbojet that he shouldn't be talking about! That "certain turbojet" I now realise must have been the RB-45C. I had just embarked upon my Flight Engineer career on the C-130K and I was keen to ask him about his exploits with the B-29. Joe was an absolute gentleman and extremely knowledgeable with all things aviation, though, no matter how many beers we might have had he wouldn't speak about that "certain turbojet". Our paths never did cross again but, in conversation with other colleagues, there was indeed a hint of something that happened within his career that couldn't be openly discussed. It's only today that I now know what took place.


Ciao


TCF

[carlrsymington]

Old Bricks,
Thanks.
ordered today.:ok:

[ricardian]

Lots of background information on British participation in U2 flights on this declassified Top Secret (Byeman) document (http://www.governmentattic.org/19docs/CIAhistOSAincep-1969.pdf)
For example 31 Dec 1958 British pilot flies the first operational mission
over Middle East targets. The British fly a total
of 28 missions with Detachment B (4 weather missions
over England, 2 photo reconnaissance missions over
the USSR from Peshawar, and the balance over the
Middle East.)

[Lyneham Lad]

Interesting obituary in The Times today.
Wing Commander Rex Sanders (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wing-commander-rex-sanders-srf6cj73k?shareToken=3a2cffbd0f00279327d859178304a559)
Steely navigator on secret RAF missions over the Soviet Union in the 1950s

[212man]

From the Orbit - surely the altitude is a typo?

The mission was conducted at night at an altitude of about 35,000ft and made extreme demands on Sanders, who was responsible for radar reconnaissance, photography and navigation. The flight plan zigzagged between 20 to 30 targets as they gathered information. Far beneath them the operation was monitored by US and British intelligence. On that occasion in April 1952 the crew got home without incident. When the operation was re-run in April 1954, Crampton and Sanders were detected as they flew over Kiev and Soviet gunners opened up. A meticulous operator who was regarded as super-cool under pressure, Sanders had seen plenty of flak during bombing missions in the Second World War and realised they were flying too high to be hit

[MPN11]

Wiki suggests "Service ceiling: 46,000 ft (14,020 m)"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_B-45_Tornado

Perhaps the altitude was determined by sensor capability? Well within MiG-15 envelope, though, so I wonder why the "ramming option" was necessary.

[ricardian]

I don't think that this has been posted before

The Oxcart story

[oldmansquipper]

Wonderful. Thanks

[ricardian]

Wonderful. Thanks

And here's another declassified document (https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000190094.pdf) The U-2 and OXCART programs 1954-74

[ricardian]

GAMBIT and HEXAGON recon satellites - lengthy history from the NRO (https://www.nro.gov/Portals/65/documents/history/csnr/gambhex/Docs/Compendium_web.pdf)

[flschaff]

Just noticed this Blog and want to mention that, in 1952, I was at RAF Lakenheath and Mildenhall with USAF B50 nuclear bombers doing overflights of the USSR.

[Waddo Liney]

Having just discovered this fascinating thread, can I just introduce a related topic to the main discussion? I have semi-circumstantial evidence that an RAF Canberra PR7 undertook photo reconnaissance on behalf of the CIA over Vietnam and possibly neighbouring countries in the mid-sixties, during the Vietnam War.
I was stationed at RAF Labuan, Borneo, for a short time in 1966 and while there as ground crew performed turn-rounds on a visiting Canberra PR7 that was painted matt black overall. After being refueled, the Canberra departed and very oddly did not return until the next day. Obviously, it must have landed somewhere else in the interim. This occurred a number of times while I served there. Several years later, as a civilian, I got into conversation with a former USAF serviceman who was seconded to the CIA’s “Air America” in the Vietnam area during that same period. While relating some of the exploits of Air America to me, he began to praise the RAF photo reconnaissance that assisted them, going on to describe how the Canberra, after taking the required photos, landed at one of their airfields where the ground crew unloaded the camera to retrieve the film before sending the Canberra on its way. At first I objected that Britain was not involved in that conflict and perhaps it was an Australian aircraft, but he insisted that it was definitely RAF. Then that it struck me that perhaps the Canberra I helped to turn round at Labuan was the same one that provided the recon service to the CIA in Vietnam. I am now researching this for a book of memoirs and would like to hear if anyone else knows anything about this.

[pr00ne]

With all of the various US reconnaissance assets in Vietnam why on earth would the US seek the assistance of a foreign Canberra PR7? You sure this wasn't a B-57 variant?

[Green Flash]

pr00ne, the US in Afghan seemed to regard the aircraft with somewhat mythical status and would ask for it by name ('can we have Canberra cover here or there'). Talking with the crews it seemed that the US didn't really have much to match the combination of platform, optics and operators. I know this was later than Vietnam but the aircraft appeared to be regarded with some reverence.

[Fareastdriver]

I was stationed at RAF Labuan, Borneo, for a short time in 1966

Maybe the Americans had seen the topographical maps of North Borneo that had been produced by flights by Canberras. We had to do all our flying around our operational area using these maps. They were fairly simple but accurate, predominately just rivers but in between the rivers were hills so that is how we got around.

When you went off their area to the old maps one would navigate by hashers for hills or letters, from R to M in Relief Data Incomplete.

[skydiver69]

The USAF had B57s doing PR in Vietnam according to this video.They get mentioned from around 4m onwards https://youtu.be/tKA6rhP7HcM

[Waddo Liney]

pr00ne, during one of the Canberra's visits, I recognized the pilot as someone I knew from a previous station where we had both served. He was definitely RAF. The aircraft was a Canberra PR7 because it featured the domed canopy, unlike the fighter canopy employed on the B57. The odd thing that fuels my theory is that on each of the occasions it visited, it returned again the next day, which it could only do if it landed somewhere else during the time it was absent from Labuan.

[treadigraph]

RB-57A?

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Martin-RB-57A-Canberra/1553961/L

[Jackonicko]

pr00ne, during one of the Canberra's visits, I recognized the pilot as someone I knew from a previous station where we had both served. He was definitely RAF. The aircraft was a Canberra PR7 because it featured the domed canopy, unlike the fighter canopy employed on the B57. The odd thing that fuels my theory is that on each of the occasions it visited, it returned again the next day, which it could only do if it landed somewhere else during the time it was absent from Labuan.

Do you remember his name? Or even which squadron he'd previously served with?

[alf5071h]

Photo, # 195, One of the few B-57A varients (8); B-57A 52-1459 Horeseheads NY
Later conversions to RB-57A for reconnaissance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_B-57_Canberra

note other variants, roles, and operations.

[Waddo Liney]

Do you remember his name? Or even which squadron he'd previously served with?

I feel that his name is in the back of my mind somewhere, but can't bring it to the surface, however, he was a flight instructor at Cranwell circa 1960. A Flt. Lt. then, but I seem to recall that he was a Sqdn. Ldr. when he turned up at Labuan. He and I had a brief chat reminiscing about our mutual time at "Cranners" and, in conversation, I casually asked him what he was doing. He replied to the effect that they "flew along the border and took some photos." Of course he didn't say which border, but since we were in Borneo, my assumption then was that he was referring to the Indonesian/Malaysian border on the mainland. Also assumed that he landed at Kuching on the mainland to stay overnight. But I question that now because why land there and stay overnight, yet return to Labuan to refuel and take a lengthy break in the officers' mess, when Kuching was only a hop, skip and a jump away from Labuan (by Canberra)?

[Waddo Liney]

RB-57A?

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Martin-RB-57A-Canberra/1553961/L

Yes, that looks a lot like the a/c I saw, but it didn't have all those markings. The markings were RAF and very subdued, also the black livery was matt. My thought is that if you land at a base where you're not supposed to be (i.e. Britain was officially not involved in the Vietnam war), it would be a good idea to make the aircraft as inconspicuous as possible to prying eyes. In the dark of night, a matt-black aircraft would be almost invisible.

[Waddo Liney]

Photo, # 195, One of the few B-57A varients (8); B-57A 52-1459 Horeseheads NY
Later conversions to RB-57A for reconnaissance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_B-57_Canberra
note other variants, roles, and operations.

I had read all of this previously, but thanks alf5071h for bringing it up. Have to admit that it seems contradictory, but I'm still left with the question as to the nature of "my" mysterious Canberra. Incidentally, the nearest Canberra PR7 squadron was 81 Sqdn based at Tengah and I originally thought it originated there, but I have been in touch with a number of former 81 Squadron member none of whom recall there being a black Canberra there.

[Jackonicko]

Do you remember the paint scheme as looking temporary and brushed on, or properly applied with all the usual stencils, etc.?

Red white and blue roundels, or red and blue?

The problem with a low conspicuity Canberra for night ops is that it would have stuck out like a sore thumb in daylight and on any flightline?

[Box Brownie]

At last, Waddo Linney, someone else who has seen a black Canberra! Way back in the thread I mentioned, as a young teenager seeing an all black Canberra land at Sylt in 1961. When I reminded my father of it a few years ago his reply was , "Yes, but because it was pushed into a hangar so quickly, you didn't see the bullet holes in the fin." Going back the RB45 overflights, a close friend of mine who sadly died last year, Flt Lt Gordon Tompkins MBE, processed the film that came back. Following a tour on Lincolns he was posted to the Weather Flight at Wyton. Gordon was navigator and a fellow navigator and his pilot would disappear for three days. Gordon had a room at the top of the photo section at Wyton and in theory he was the only one with a key. When his navigator friend returned a package of film would appear on his desk. Gordon was assisted by a Dr Llewelyn in developing a process of printing that brought out detail, though not 3d. All this was done in Gordon's spare time and in total secrecy. He would take the prints in person to MOD ( Air Ministry) in London. For his work he was awarded the MBE. I hope this gives just a little more to the story.

[MikeeB]

My dad is 82, flew in Shackleton's and Canberra's. Says and has said very little about what he did, but flew or was based out of Cyprus and Malta at times? Does that make sense?

[Waddo Liney]

Do you remember the paint scheme as looking temporary and brushed on, or properly applied with all the usual stencils, etc.?
Red white and blue roundels, or red and blue?
The problem with a low conspicuity Canberra for night ops is that it would have stuck out like a sore thumb in daylight and on any flightline?

The paint scheme was not temporary, but as far as I can recall, there were no markings on the fuselage. As for roundels, it was a long time ago, so I don't have any clear memory of seeing them. It was definitely conspicuous on our flight line, but Labuan was a remote airfield far from prying eyes.

[Waddo Liney]

At last, Waddo Linney, someone else who has seen a black Canberra! Way back in the thread I mentioned, as a young teenager seeing an all black Canberra land at Sylt in 1961. When I reminded my father of it a few years ago his reply was , "Yes, but because it was pushed into a hangar so quickly, you didn't see the bullet holes in the fin."
Thanks Box Brownie for confirming that a Canberra with such a paint scheme existed. I couldn't find the "earlier in the thread" post you mentioned, but do you happen to remember if it was matte black or if it had a sheen? Also, any recollection if it was a photo recon version? The bullet holes could have been from small arms fire. Perhaps it was shot at while landing.

[Jackonicko]

My dad is 82, flew in Shackleton's and Canberra's. Says and has said very little about what he did, but flew or was based out of Cyprus and Malta at times? Does that make sense?

That does make sense. Was he an AEOp or Signaller, by any chance? Or a Nav?

[Waddo Liney]

My dad is 82, flew in Shackleton's and Canberra's. Says and has said very little about what he did, but flew or was based out of Cyprus and Malta at times? Does that make sense?
MikeeB, it makes a lot of sense. Since the Canberra didn't originate from 81 Squadron, Tengah, one of the things I have considered was that it came from Malta or Cyprus where a number of Canberra PR squadrons were based. Possibly it would have refuelled at Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and then Labuan. I had thought of Gan as a refuelling stop, but a former 81 Sqdn. navigator advised that Gan was a bit beyond the Canberra's range from the Med. Another thought was that it came from Darwin in Australia's Northern Territory. It would have been welcome there since Oz was a participant in the Vietnam war.
I have feelers out, trying to get in touch with other ground crew members who served at Labuan at that time and who may have memories of the mysterious Canberra.

[Box Brownie]

Waddo Liney, it was so long ago I can't recall if it had a sheen or not. I do recall Dad saying that it was not cleared to land at RAF Sylt. I have always presumed that it was at height either near or over the Russian border and got caught by a fighter. Knowing they had been hit, and not knowing the damage, I would think the crew elected to land at the nearest NATO base.

[MikeeB]

That does make sense. Was he an AEOp or Signaller, by any chance? Or a Nav?

I'll try find out more; it's just something he's never spoken about. I've found him on https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/ if anyone has access, I'll give you the details via PM.

[Waddo Liney]

Made a request to MOD through the Freedom of Information Act for any pertinent information. The reply was that it's too long ago to be in its records, but it was suggested that I try searching the National Archives. Don't think I particularly want to chase down that rabbit hole.

[Brewster Buffalo]

...............it was suggested that I try searching the National Archives. Don't think I particularly want to chase down that rabbit hole.
I did a bit of research in the National Archives in relation to the Defiant thread and its use as a ECM platform. I was able to download the ORB for May to September 1942.
However there is no reference within as to their role nor where operational flights took place just a reference to a secret file at 11 Group for further information. So likely in this case this "overflight" might not be mentioned in the ORB.

One intriguing event was an "air to sea firing programme" carried out at Leysdown.. Perhaps if they saw an E-Boat they were expected to attack it??
Of course only a proportion of the RAF records are available for download though, at the moment, there is no charge to do so...

[ericsson16]

'By Any Means Possible' written by William E Burrows ISBN 0-374-11747-0
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Any-Means-Necessary-Americas-Secret/dp/0091795117

[NutLoose]

https://www.key.aero/article/peering-behind-curtain

[West Coast]

Nutty

I’ve had a link removed recently, the explanation by the mods was that there’s a requirement to also have text by the poster, not just the link.

[MikeeB]

That does make sense. Was he an AEOp or Signaller, by any chance? Or a Nav?

Spoke with him today, he was an Aeroplane Photographer(?). Said he originally worked on Canberra PR7's(?) and was based at both Bruggen and Laarbruch, or at least that's what I thought he said. His next sentence was, "I'm sure they used to fly over Russia". After that he moved to worked on Shackletons based at Kilnloss and seemed to get onboard flights a lot. He mentioned Ballykelly was a regular stop, and said flying at very low level over sea was not a comfortable time. He then said something about they used to lower a device out the bottom of the Shacks and one day the pilot went that low, it hit the sea. They used to fly around quite a lot on 'training exercises', so they spent time in Malta and Cyprus, which he said was a 10 hour flight? They also flew in to Gatow and he visited before the wall went up - he also said the place was still in ruins.

One of the officers had his own Tiger Moth, so he got a flight in that one day, said it was the best thing he ever flew in whilst in the RAF.

I'll ask some more next time I go round more for my own interest than anything else, but if anyone has any specific questions based on the above, please let me know.

Regards