Flying for Lion Air

[pmmartin]

I have done the assessment at CAE for the Lion Air program, and I think that I will likely get a provisional offer soon. Now I am not crazy about pay-for-training, and I know the contract is not the best (about $45000 USD a year, time off provisions, etc). However, I am tired of being unemployed and have a decent severance package from my last employer that I could use. Cost for a 737 NG type rating at CAE Dallas in $24000 USD. Some opportunity is better then no opportunity, I guess...

Specifically, does anyone out there fly for Lion Air? What have your experiences been like? I have the usual questions, safety, scheduling, maintenance, etc.

More generally, how do some of you like living and flying out of Jakharta? I don't really have any experience flying in that part of the world.

Thanks for any input.

[nicholasblonde]

I'll do your homework for you:

http://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east/349531-how-working-lion-air-2.html

Enjoy!!!

[pmmartin]

Yes, well thanks for responding.

However, I've read all of that already, so I do know what an apartment costs and how to give directions to a cab driver. As far as actually flying and working for Lion Air goes, I'm still pretty much in the dark.

I was hoping that someone actually flew for them, but I think that they are new to the idea of hiring foreign pilots.

[FSJ]

Well, Lion Air do seem to be expanding.

But I would look into the following points that arouse my suspicious nature:
1. Indonesian DGAC had some restrictions on foreigners (non-Indo nationals) working as F/O within Indonesian airlines, specially those with no or few hours on type.
2. Salaries in Indonesia tend to be fairly low, unless you are particularly experienced in a particular area of work. So I would query the amount that you mention.
3. Seems rather expensive for an FAA 737 type rating. I should have thought max 12,000 USD would have been more realistic. Could you not do a 737NG rating elsewhere (as generally all FAA training is recognised by the Indonesian DGAC)?
4. I dont see any details regarding recruitment on the Lion Air website.

I enjoyed my time in Indonesia, and in general it is a pretty good place to work. Sorry I dont have more specific info on Lion Air.

Finally, the old addage comes to mind that if no-one paid for jobs (via type ratings) then probably no-one would have to. Personally speaking, I would feel insulted if, after paying in the region of 100,000 USD for a JAA (F)ATPL course, I was then asked by an airline to part with another 24,000 USD for a job!

Good luck, and keep us posted how you get on with Lion Air.

[PK-KAR]

Specifically, does anyone out there fly for Lion Air? What have your experiences been like? I have the usual questions, safety, scheduling, maintenance, etc.
They desperately need pilots for the 739s... they often fly up to 110hrs a month (and insiders said, they fly more in some cases).

The MD80 crews now "fly by QRH", in the bad sense. They use it so often they know some parts off by heart and some are dying to leave. Several of them have refused offers to move to 739ERs due to extra bond conditions that will add to their already bonded situation...

Safety? They've tailscraped 1 739ER already officially... one was reported to have had a strike on take off and... continued from Manado to Jakarta.

Scheduling? It's schedule by SMS. Their computerized scheduling system is nice, but by the afternoon of the first day in the scheduling period, you'd be sent SMSes on revisions. Why? Well, it's not integrated to the rest of the company, and maintenance, delays etc, you'd figure out why.

Don't be surprised to receive calls of "Mister, we need your help! Please! Can you fly another 2 legs after this?" And refusing can result in the management types calling you to be "persuaded".

Now, Lion Air offered 75k USD for Indonesian pilots with NG ratings to join, guess what? No or very few takers.

Maintenance? Well, I hear for the 739s it's OK, but for the other types... forget it.

Flying in and out of Jakarta?
Don't worry about ATC delays, it won't happen with Lion (but it happens with everyone else!)... go and figure why...
Don't be surprised if you get nasty verbal abuse by other airline pilots in the air because Lion is "so nice" to ATC, that the flight 20NM ahead of you at the same flight lever gets bumped off so you can have a clear run, or that the airplane 15NM away on approach gets told to go around so that you can have "no delay in departures", or that you get bumped from #4 in sequence to become #1 only to see 3 traffic on TCAS suddenly on downwind...

With the 744s coming online, there's good news for the 739 crew, the jokers are leaving the type and punching their way (literally) to grab a spot on the 744.

Living in Jakarta? Make sure they'll give you transport pickup to the airport and back, otherwise call in sick on friday afternoon duty starts (crew delays due to traffic jams aren't unusual)

You can grab an apartment and share it, or go for one of those "room rents", my house is one, and I got 3 Aussies enjoying the free pool at the weekends and it's near the bars/cafes in Kemang, and it's a quiet neighborhood (though am moving out soon to a new house but also provide rooms for rent, but this one's still open)... You can grab one of those rooms for $100 - $300 a month with laundry, mineral water, own bathroom (hot & cold) airconditioning, 24hr access, cable TV and internet... and parking.

With that, you can save more out of a smaller salary than in other countries.

1. Indonesian DGAC had some restrictions on foreigners (non-Indo nationals) working as F/O within Indonesian airlines, specially those with no or few hours on type.
2. Salaries in Indonesia tend to be fairly low, unless you are particularly experienced in a particular area of work. So I would query the amount that you mention.
3. Seems rather expensive for an FAA 737 type rating. I should have thought max 12,000 USD would have been more realistic. Could you not do a 737NG rating elsewhere (as generally all FAA training is recognised by the Indonesian DGAC)?
4. I dont see any details regarding recruitment on the Lion Air website.
Yes there are restrictions, but there shortage still exist and recruiting foreigners is a way to relieve the pressure. However, the DGCA (yes they've changed their name to the DGCA now, no longer the DGAC), said they will allow for foreign pilots to be employed in Indonesia on a salary in par with locals. So far we have not heard more from the DGCA and airlines are eager to get clarity on this issue. Once that happens, if I were you, I'd go and apply somewhere else, although NG is limited to Garuda and Lion at the moment.

PK-KAR

[Chintito]

What are the chances of a 1600 hour (500 on 733) F/O with Lionair? Do they only take cadets as Ryanair are doing?
I cant seem to find any contact info on these guys.

anyone?

[pmmartin]

Hello PK-KAR,

Thanks for your informative post.

Interesting about the shortage of 737 pilots. Do you think that even in this market their demand for pilots is growing? I wonder if they have simply run out of Indonesian pilots to hire?

I know that the 737's are new. I would expect them to be in pretty good shape. The MD's are on the way out and getting old, can't say that I'd really want to go and fly them.

I don't mind flying a lot, but no one wants to fly forced overtime, or when you are tired, sick, etc. Still, I used to work for a USA cargo operator that would dock your pay if you called in sick. We used to call it the "get sick on your own time" policy.

Thanks for the information about in Jakarta. If I end up there in a month or two, I'll send you a message and see if you have anything open as far as rentals. Does having a car there help?

Any hints on flying in Asia? My guess is that the biggest challenge is TRW's. All of my time has been in North and Central America. As far as ATC priority, I guess that the companies and ATC have to sort it out if there are some issues.

Regards

[insert_name]

Hi,

Has anyone got a copy of the CAE / Lionair 737NG Captain contract?
Or
Are there any expats already at Lionair?

Thanks
i_n

[topstar]

I’ve just spent the last 5 months in Jakarta training for an airline there.
There is a big pilot shortage, all the airlines are recruiting but there are no locals left.
They have all gone to India, Malaysia and Hong Kong for more money.
The company I was working for were taking on F/O who had not flown for 10 years.
Some of them were up to 300hrs of line training and still could not land the aircraft.
There was a big rumour around that Garuda Lionair and Batavia were asking the DGCA for permission to take on expats.
Life style in Jakarta is OK once you get used to it. I was staying in an apartment 30K from the airport, down town. It could take between 40mins and 1hr 30mins to get to the airport depending on which day and the time of day it was.
Very normal to be programmed for a 4 sector day, and after the first sector be handed a piece of paper saying that they had added an extra two sectors on, making 6 in all.
Just required a phone call to crewing saying ‘sorry but I have a dentist appointment later and can’t do the last sectors’
If anybody hears that they are able to take on expats please let me know. I have several friends who would love to go there for a year to build up some hours.

[pmmartin]

Hello Topstar,

Thanks for your post. Just curious, who requires 5 months of training? Don't mention names if you don't want to. I know that the Japanese can be quite, quite thorough with training.

[capt_j]

I got an email today announcing assessements Friday in Brussels. I'm not sure if I'm in a position to go that far on short notice, I'm still trying to make arrangements.

Any updates on Lion Air? Anybody else get the email?

[Geebz]

Hi All,

Can anyone give me any contact info for Lion air? I tried the email on the other thread but it bounced back to me.

THANKS,

geebz

[aseanaero]

**

Read this link

Lion Air jobs, payscales and entry requirements. (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Lion_Air)

Lion is trying to get a waiver from Indo DGCA to hire more foreign pilots but it's still in process so they have a temporary freeze on putting on foreign pilots but that won't last forever.

They've stopped advertising and shut down the links for recruitment but suggest you send your details to

Lion Air Tower
Jl. Gajah Mada No. 7
Jakarta Pusat
DKI Indonesia


HRD Phone is +62 21-70712601

HRD LION AIR
contact person
Akhsin Muamar / Setro Gondo

Not sure if these people are still there but it worth a try

Be aware that the DGCA discourages expat pilots and will normally only issue a 6 month permit in times of shortage , what this Lion waiver is trying to do I don't know for sure but they maybe trying to extend that

[BoeingDriverUSA]

Hello all

Has anyone gone recently to a CAE Lion Air assessment? If you have, could you give us some information about the assessment?

What's in it? Questions type, simulator profile, etc. Whatever you have to share is appreciated.

Thanks:ok:

[Syrian Aviator]

<< However, I am tired of being unemployed and have a decent severance package from my last employer that I could use. Cost for a 737 NG type rating at CAE Dallas in $24000 USD. Some opportunity is better then no opportunity, I guess...>>

I suggest you consider the other side of the coin, For example: You pay the money, you do the rating and then you dont get the job!

[fly now]

HI! I am f Fo rated 737 300 900 and looking forward to go to asia since in europe it s very difficult to find a job at the moment.

could u give some advice and contacts?

many tahnks many many!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jetjockey696]

You better off and try Fly dubai.. they where looking for Fo's on a job site.. (climbto350.com) a few days back..

the money is alot better.. too... 600 euros a month all in..:{

[jetjockey696]

You better off and try Fly dubai.. they where looking for Fo's on a job site.. (climbto350.com) a few days back..

the money is alot better.. too... Lion air..600 euros a month all in..:{

[jesuspmi13]

All is a lie, I have a colleague that left there because the salary is a lie they signed last year between CAE and Lion air max salary 3000$ for a Captain, the housing is a shi....t, and in most of cases share sh...t dirty flat with an unknown partner, also electricity and water not included, and in this 3rd conuntries you know what you can spect, water at the price of a gas gallon.

Remember no way for FO with type rating on b737, they sell the type rating to cadets pilots from sabena and CAE academy and send them there with 150h on light planes and 40h sim on 737, so the picture is working as a training captain all the time for 3000$, or 2200€ a month, and not even being type rated as trainer in the license.

Guys this is getting nuts or what!!!!
Better be grounded dreaming to go fly, than being flying wishing to be on the ground, because in that instant is when the accident becomes a reality in your life, and unfortunately ther is no way back.

So good luck and try to flip the coin, but remeber the deep sea is plenty of only brave sailors.

[himz_falcon]

I am new to this group and the only reason i joined was the fact that i want some career advice, i am looking for a job and i seriously will work for peanuts at this time, i did my flying from Sabena airline training center(now it is called CAE global academy phoenix) and passed out with a FAA CPL-AMEL, now i don't know what to do i a desperately looking for a job and now that none of the airline in my country i.e. India are hiring i am looking for a job abroad be it any where- i am just hoping to build up some hrs on the jets, as of now i have mere 270 hrs including 83 on the multi engine(50 actual, 33 on sim) and i am willing to pay for my type rating on 737 or 320 if any company is willing to take me up.
Plz HELP!:bored:

[Massey058]

Surely a piss take, if not that is seriously sad.

i am just hoping to build up some hrs on the jets, as of now i have mere 270 hrs

I don't even think Lion Air as scary as they are will be entertaining those hours from non-Indonesians (even if you pay for everything).

will work for peanuts

Now thats just gold - we're all screwed.

[djanello]

They do. (In fact, many airlines do it as long as the student can prove they're up to standard.)

himz_falcon, why don't you ask around in Phoenix? I'm pretty sure that atleast some folks overthere can tell you more.

[Massey058]

They do. (In fact, many airlines do it as long as the student can prove they're up to standard.)

Yes I know that many airlines around the world take low-houred guys. As do many Indonesian airlines, they however do not take low-houred foreigners. Their major problem at the moment is a shortage of experienced people to fly their steady stream of incoming 737-900's. Hence the CAE contract.

[CaptWUFF]

Anybody have any contact info for the CAE/Lion air program or the CAE/Air Asia program? I got 900 TT and Jet time, but I Haven't gotten any response from CAE. Please help. I think most people don't understand, that if you get 500 hours on type, it won't matter that you paid for the program!

[djanello]

CaptWuff, I'm afraid that if you're not a CAE global academy student, chances are nil to get in. The contacts responsible at CAE don't respond because they simply can't. They're swamped with emails etc.

[training wheels]

If you're wanting to buy hours and a type rating, why don't you try some of those places that advertised on pprune, like this one?

Eagle Jet International, Inc. (http://www.eaglejet.net/)

There's also another one I saw in the banner adds last week.

Has anyone tried such programs? Seems a little far fetched to me. Call me a traditionalist!

[Storpikk]

Just FYI a FAA B737 typerating is not series specific. Does not matter if you take it in a 100 or 900, would say the same on your license.....B737. Only thing you would need coming from a round dial B737 is a differences Course, they are cheap and involves some few hours of classroom study.
So what they are charging you to do it in a NG sim is a waste, same rating. But Hey its your money...I guess CAE makes some cash on this pay for training job schemes

:=:=:=:=.

[djanello]

A comparison:

eaglejet: Typerating 737NG + 300h = 28.000E
lionair: Typerating 737NG + 1500h = 0E

Ofcourse you can work in a different job after half a year eaglejet experience, thus the difference is smaller, but you won't be current anymore and have a LOT less hours.

[B-737]

0 E ??? You have to pay your type rating at CAE!

[CaptWUFF]

Any info on the program here? I got about 900 TT and 350 Jet. I'd pay for 320 rating. I applied, but no response from CAE.

[djanello]

You do get payed while working at lionair, that is not the case at eaglejet. The wages for starting first officers have recently been doubled which means that after two years the net result is approximately zero.

CaptWUFF, lionair does not fly 320´s, thus getting that rating won´t help here. I can give specific info but do need specific questions first.

[BoeingDriverUSA]

Guys

I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone. Me, and everyone else, once was a low timer. But I still believe that if you have 900 hours TT you really should be looking at Instructing at a local school; Get some multi-engine students and build your experience that way. It is not even fair for the pilot on your left to have a 900 hr guy on the right seat with paying passengers and their families in the back. I say that with all due respect to all low timers out there. Be reasonable, guys.

[BoeingDriverUSA]

My friend himz_falcon (http://www.pprune.org/members/306991-himz_falcon)


With 200hrs+ TT you really should not even think about jets and Type Ratings. You need to think about a more complex Cessna to fly, with retractable landing gear, adjustable pitch propeller and the sorts. You can't be too far ahead of your experience. It takes time to get it. When you come to around 2,000 to 3,000 hours, then a Type Rating might be more appropriate after you get yout ATPL.

Happy flights!

[azlee_19]

I had exactly 200 hrs TT out of flying school, joined airline on 737 flying 150 people everyday during training, and adjusted just fine, hundreds/thusands more are like me.

SQ puts their cadets on learjet for training, then straight for 777 flying 300 people.

So why feel so insecure having very low time fo on your right? afraid if u cant monitor him/her? with so high hours i m sure thats not even a prob.:=

[CaptWUFF]

BoeingDriverUSA thanks for the support....


Yeah, so what you are saying is that if I can get a job flight instructing rather then on a jet...i should take the flight instructing?

Listen, I'm looking for anything with wings to fly right now. THe opportunity is not there. I got hired on a jet with 400 hours, and I did pretty well until the company sold the a/c. So, I'm of course going to be searching to get back on a jet, but I'll take what I can get.

It really makes me mad when high time guys come and bash low time guys because they got on a jet with low time. I'm glad I'm NOT sitting next to you in the cockpit. You'd be the guy that says " sit there and be quiet".

To all the low timers: Don't let guys like this discourage you. If you can get time on a jet, take it! Look to get on a jet as fast as possible too.

[BoeingDriverUSA]

CaptWUFF

In no way, shape or form I bashed you for being a low time pilot. You might need to read what I said carefully next time so you don't distort what's been said. My question to you would be with your total flight experience, flying passenger in the back, how would you handle a Captain who can't figure out how long he can stay in a holding pattern; who chooses a bad airport to divert, or simply decides to land with a strong tail wind because he feels comfortable. Can you take the controls and make all these decisions if he becomes incapacitaded with your 900 flying hours? I know you can't! I once was 900 hours myself and with that much time I was teaching private pilots how to fly and I learned a lot about aviation that way.

Cheers

[snoop doggy dog]

Boy boys boys. It's easy to see what BoeingDriverUSA is saying. Learn your craft, do some type of apprenticeship to become an old and good pilot.

You need to make every post a winner :ok: Apply for ALL the jobs you can and if you get a Cessna job, take it! If you have a choice, take the one that helps your career the best. But apply for all the jobs that you can.

Some of the best jobs in North America I would think, are in Canada flying in and out of the bush. That's how we do it in Oz :) By all means, if you have the opportunity for what seems a better job, then take it.

My career has taken me from piston bangers around the bush in Oz to flying Jets around the world. In Oz (due to the way things are), I have been blessed (I'm not a bible basher, just lucky!:)) to have flown in many different types of aircraft and situations.

These days, I have a reasonable grasp on the things around me..... the weather, my work mates (matettes:E), aircraft etc. I think that BoeingDriverUSA was trying to alert you guys to other things that do go on :D.

My missus is from East Java. We had some news when we were there once, about a Guarda flight into Central Java. The Skipper tried to land his Jet aircraft at around 60 kts more than Vapp, into a relatively short strip for a Jet. I am sure that most could find info on this disaster. A Go Around would have averted disaster, and a lot of people would have lived another day.

Be careful for what you want guys, as you may get it :ok:

All the very best to everyone and I hope that you make good career choices :)

[El Lobo Solo]

So pmmartin, did ya get the job or not? Don't see any new posts from you since doing so well on your evaluation. What's the story?

IMHO...Everyone with 200 hours DESERVES a jet job. :ok:

[arba]

Cpt.Wuff and others,

no matter how low your time is, if they invite you .. go compete!

17 years ago, I went from flying school to glass cockpit, I got the same 15 sessions and less than 200 hr to qualify, just like pilots who were not abinitio.

[Frynog]

This program has been going for a while but I'm yet to hear any lion bule on the airwaves >.<

[geh065]

Are the 744s flying yet?

[islandflyer]

No 744s seen yet.
ATR 72s were supposed to arrive in June. Not seen yet either.

[jetjockey696]

on my recent visit to jakarta...3wks ago I saw Lion b747/4 in lion colours..parked in soekarno hatta.

[ATPMBA]

any update on Lion Air?

[Cruiseclimb]

You can get a 737NG type at Aero Service in Miami right now for $8,000.... What's up with a $24,000 bond at CAE???? I just did a King Air 350 course there in June for a short term contract I had, and CAE had the WORST flight training I have ever experienced..

[B772]

Aero Services of Miami are on the bottom rung of flight training. Anyone who thinks they can get a B737NG type rating for $8,000 must be a sucker. The $8,000 would barely cover the instuctors.

[savannah]

Guys.....
Is there any Company out there that can employ a pilot with just a type rating?
Say I have 2000hrs on B732 and I go for a B767 type rating on FAA ticket, would that place me on top of a food chain?
Concerned :oh:

[notanastronaut]

Hello:

Thanks for your post. How/Where did you apply for the assessment?

ANA

[Cruiseclimb]

I know Aero Service trains for some of the bottom feeders, but the economy has hit the sim training industry hard. The rating has been reduced from their normal price of $14K... It's going back up in a couple of months. If you just want the type.. do you really care?? I did my 737 classic type there and was actually pretty happy with them. I went there expecting the worst, but hey, go pay $24K if it bothers you.. :p

[pmmartin]

If anyone is interested, I decided to take a corporate position here in the States. Lion Air would have been an interesting challenge, but there were a lot of concerns and no one to answer any questions. The contract was weak, and the first chance I would have had to speak with anyone from Lion Air would have been AFTER I paid for my type rating and went to Jakarta.

No disrespect to anyone climbing the aviation ladder, but I did hear that you could be paired with a very low time, pay-for-training first officer. In my opinion, to be flying a new jet in an unfamiliar environment is challenge enough even with an experienced first officer, let alone a 300 hour/no jet time co-pilot. I am not saying that a pilot with that experience can not be sharp, only that one of us ought to be very experienced in the airplane/operation.

Lastly, I did talk to a highly experienced American pilot with extensive international experience who did the Lion Air program, and he was very unimpressed with it. Just one person's opinion so take it for what it is worth, but personally I did value it.

Best of luck to all, better days are coming.

[djanello]

I'm currently in Jakarta, and know a captain who was in the same position you were. He decided to take his chances and now is very glad he did. The standards at lionair are rather high and any first officer that is taken on becomes very proficient very fast.

It looks like a huge gamble from the other side of the globe, but once you're in it is very rewarding.

[azlee_19]

Did the capt pay for his type rating too?

Do u know if LionAir taking expat FO also? I ve sent my resume via email but no response.

[djanello]

yes & yes.

although the amount of expats is extremely limited. If you're not on the shortlist right now, chances of getting in are nil. Maybe they'll get permission for more expats later on, but for now they don't.

[indonesia]

Hello,
I also want to do the Test at CAE, although I do not have the money for the typerating, which in AMS is 28.500 Euros! As one can get it on the free market for about 20.000 Euros, I think about 5.000 Euros is the Comission for Lion Air, same like Ryanair! After 60.000 Euros for the ATPL thats a lot of money, again!
As much as I know about Jakarta and Lion Air,I can tell you: The pay is much less, between 21.000.000 and 26.500.000 IDR, which is between USD 2250 and USD 2600 a month. Lion Air pays for the apartement, electricity, water and cleaning. They also provide transport to and from the Airport and they pay the tax for you, that means that money is the net salary. Illness insurance is provided, dental I am not sure about. If you come alone, you will get a shared apartement with another pilot, if you bring your family, you have an apartement for yourself, no sharing! Lion Air does not pay for an international shool, which is quite expensive, about 1100 USD per month per child!
Jakarta is lousy but fun, the indonesian people are very nice, and it is very helpful if you can speak some Indonesian, to get rid of annoying begglars!
I can not say anything about safety standards, I just say that i would not apply for the MD 80, as I know that the maintenance is far below standard, but the Boeing 737-900s are brandnew and Boeing is responsible for the maintenance in the first years of operation,as far as I know, so they should be in pretty good condition!
The contract is for two years and if it is finished before due to bad behaviour of the pilot, a penalty of USD 10.000 has to be paid!
Holiday is 12 days and work on a bi-weekly basis, whatever that means! The information you get from CAE or Lion Air directly is very rare, you have to ask 10 times to get one answer, I dont like that!
Anyway, I wish you all the best, maybe you have some information about the test at CAE for Lion Air? How does it look like? Especially the Aptitude Test? Any kind of preparation you can recommend?

Tha salary sounds low, but living costs in Jakarta are much below that in Europe or the US, the average indionesian salary is about USD 50 a month! Lion Air about USD 30.000 per year.
If you know indonesian people to help you, you can also get an indonesian house for USD 400 for two years, but I think the apartement sponsored by Lion Air is the better choice! Good luck, Mister!

[pmmartin]

For those who want to pursue the CAE-Lion Air position, here is what I know. Please understand that I completed the process 6 months ago, so things may have changed.

It is strictly a skill and knowledge assessment, no typical interview questions. The simulator profile is roughly 1 hour flying and 1 hour not flying. You will get a very thorough sim briefing via email beforehand. Nothing too unexpected or unfair, but of course you have to hand fly. If you haven't flown full EFIS before, you might want to practice that.

The written test was harder for me. It was 70 questions or so, multiple choice. They seemed to be mainly JAA or EASA ATP test questions. Coming from the States, I had to guess at quite a few. If I had to do it over, I would certainly get a British or European ATP study book and review that. Studying the FAA ATP questions was useless for me as far as preparation for taking the test.

If someone ends up flying the line for Lion Air, let us know how it is going. I can't help but wonder how it would have went if I took the position, but I'm enjoying flying an Astra SPX in the States.

Best Regards,

PMH

[indonesia]

Holiday: 12 days
Shared apartement paid by Lion Air
Free tranport to/from Airport, while on duty
Pay is 20 Mio. IDR basic plus 60.000 per flight-hour, so about 1800 Euros per month, if you fly 90 hours
Contract for two years
If contract has to be finished due to bad behaviour of pilot, a penalty of 10.000 USD has to be paid
Lion also pays for tax, medical and dental insurance, cleaning the apartement and electricity and water, so the money you get is the money you can spend!
Good luck, Guys!

[oceanfly]

Hi..

....i am an FAA/ICAO CPL/IR/Multi with 2179 hrs total and 1515hrs on multi turbo prop......this is what they told me yesterday when i send them an e-mail?

Thank you for your email, regret that We unable to follow up your intention, actually we are not hiring expatriate Pilots, but we have a mutual agreement with Eagle Jet from Miami.:ugh:

here is the contact lion air:

Recruiting manager..Capt: Nuryanto
e-mail: [email protected]
Tel- +62 21 6326038 ext: 2605

cheers..

[indonesia]

Hi, do you know where the apartements are? I know Jakarta
Pretty good, just nice to know! So the copilot salary is lower
Than they promise? They said to me about 26 Mio. IDR, which is
1800 USD! Any idea about the SIM-Checkrides, where they are
Held? And about roster? But especially the housing is in my
Interest, are there any fotos in the Internet? Thank you very much!

[highandlow]

Just a small adjustment to info of "INDONESIA" ....if the FO salary is around 26 mil. Rupiah then this will be around 2900 US as the rate nowadays is just 1 dollar to 8850 rupiah ...just checked it here yesterday . For those looking for some "good" flying and getting jet-experience go for it . Even next to the flying you will have a great time .....Indonesian people are nice and it is a nice place to be ....even if it is just for some life-experience ...........

[PK-KAR]

but the Boeing 737-900s are brandnew and Boeing is responsible for the maintenance in the first years of operation,as far as I know, so they should be in pretty good condition!
They've banged a couple of them... :) But then, that's nothing new.
And just a few weeks ago... several pilots got called for a "meeting" at one of the hangout places here... where the company "asked for help" to fly in December because the annuals of those pilots have run out... :) Again, nothing new.
But yes... don't even touch their MD80s unless you fancy flying by QRH Abnormals a lot of the times! :eek: (one colleague who quit cited his reason as "when you know the QRH off the top of your head, you know it's time to move on to something else!")

And their audit results to go to Australia? Wonder why it's rejected at least 2x on safety grounds... BUT, things may have changed in as little as a year :)

the average indionesian salary is about USD 50 a month!
Let me be a bit pedantic... I pay my maid more than that! That's her pay after meals which gets covered. Average salary of $50 a month in Jakarta isn't real mate... check their allowances etc... it'll net out about $100 a month in most cases.

20 Mio IDR basic + 60,000 per hour? Is that for F/O or Cpt? If for F/O, it's OK, if it's for Cpt... it's a total rip off! Even for the locals ! (Oh hang on, that's their F/O pay right?)

F/O for 26mio does make sense though, plus 60k an hr...

If contract has to be finished due to bad behaviour of pilot, a penalty of 10.000 USD has to be paid
Bad behaviour, my several court testimonies, including refusing to fly unairworthy aircraft. The mentality is, "if someone else wants to fly it and you don't, you're the bad guy"... mind U, they probably only do it to the locals. If they dare do that to the expats, they'd be fools.

Anyone fancy US$3000 basic plus US$70 an hour in Indonesia? :) There's some pressure for the company to let expats fly in that company... Let's hope it happens.

My view on Lion seems rather dismal/depressing on the safety aspect... but, there are those in the company working very hard to improve it... Let's hope they win !

But, whatever it is, welcome to Indonesia to those joining whichever airline for whichever pay... Enjoy it... and let's have a beer sometime.

Oceanfly, Now, why am I not surprised to read that? Sometimes I think no one knows anything around here :(

[sebsair]

Hi Mmartin

I am going for assesment in Cae soon I would like to ask you some questions as you been thought before , Could you send me a private
email ..Thanks REGARDS

[indonesia]

Hi, do you know where the apartements are and if you can see fotos in the Internet of them? I know Jakarta, was living there before short-time, and as I bring three children I would like to know the area, be it Menteng or Kebayoran Baru or wherever. It was Old Batavia before, but I am not sure about now!
And where the Crews have their SIM-Checkrides?
Awaiting your soonest reply
Indonesia

[indonesia]

Hi, PK-KAR,
you know a lot about Lion Air, do you also know where the apartements are located? I would bring three children with me, and I just would like to get some Info about the housing sponsored by Lion Air, as kind of mentally preparation. I know Jakarta pretty well, thats why it would be nice to know, thanks in advance for letting me know!
Indonesia

[PK-KAR]

MDs are done on their SIM in Halim, the Classics are on a sim just outside CGK airport or at CAE SIN, the NGs are still done in SIN.

Can someone give me the names of the apartments they put guys in? I dunno where otherwise. Am more interested in the company's recent (relatively successful) attempts to get its crew to fly exceeding their annual flying hour limits... more juice there! *grin*

PK-KAR

[brasmelzuit]

If possible, try to get the money out of Lion's pocket and find yourself a house. It'll
cost you less money with bigger rooms..Just my 2 cents worth opinion

[djanello]

Pilots are taking leaves due to their hour limits. trainings are slowed because of this problem. As far as I know hour limitations are not knowingly exceeded.

Housing will cost more than the allowance that you'll be receiving. It's not clear yet what option is really better. Some new pilots are leaning towards arranging their own appartments, but when you're away 6 out of 7 days, it might not be worth the effort and money.

Also, there is a NG sim located outside Cenkareng as well. I should know since I've used it. ;)

[PK-KAR]

Djanello,
Nice to see you guys got the NG sim here...
As far as I know hour limitations are not knowingly exceeded.
I hope they've stopped the practice of "resetting the annual limit after a medex". Not everyone there wants to exceed... but some do... unfortunately.
find yourself a house. It'll cost you less money with bigger rooms..Just my 2 cents worth opinion
I'll second that ! :ok:

[indonesia]

As I get to know from CAE, pilots are put in the Harmoni Apartement Complex near the central office of Lion Air. I think it is in Old Batavia, near Jalan Gajah Mada. On the pictures they look good, and they say that everything is included, also water and electricity, but as I heard here also, that is not the case, it is just promised before. Would have to see what is true. When you come alone, you have to share an apartement, if you are married and bring your spouse and family, you get an apartement for your own. The complex seems to be equipped with a tennis court, swimming-pool and fitness-center, if the pictures can be trusted.
Now they seem to be on hold, I did not hear from CAE for a long time. I just hope that Lion Air does not work together with Eagle Jet International to get Copilots for free, and after the promised 500 hours on type these Copilots are put on the streets again, that is like a Mafia!
To anyone who succeeds, I wish good luck and have fun in Indonesia. If you marry a local woman, you get reallly good living-prices in that country, e.g. meals, taxi, tuk-tuk etc. If you are alone, you have to pay double or even triple. So as soon as you arrive, try to get to know indonesian women, they are really nice. If it works out, you will have a very nice life in Indonesia, also with the "small" salyry at Lion Air! Good luck!

[aseanaero]

there is a NG sim located outside Cenkareng as well

What simulators in the Lion Air Sim complex at Halim ?

[indonesia]

Hi, did it work out? Do you fly for Lion Air now? I would love to hear from you how life is now in Jakarta and working for Lion, as I am thinking about that step, too. I am still waiting for the assessment!Please let me know, [email protected]

[indonesia]

Hey, the Lufthansa Pilots also dont have more than 250 hours when they start to fly with passengers, and that is no problem! Everyone says the Lufthansa Pilots are very good, so having 200 or 1000 hours on small aircrafts does not say anything about your ability of flying a big Jet! You have the license, and thats it. That means that you are allowed to fly a Jet, so where is the problem? The real ability to have thew controls of a Jet you learn better by starting as soon as possible! Clear fact, or not?
And 4000 USD for a Captain is good money, when you live in Indonesia, and get anything!
Surely, in the US it would not be sufficient, but living in Indonesia, my Goodness, wake up, guys! You have a very good life, over there!
You dont need an apartement for 3000 USD a month, an indonesian house with aircondition you can get for 400 USD for two years, thats a deal, istnt it? So 4000 a month still looks small?

[rotatejunkie]

Hi guys

Im sourcing for opportunites to work at Wings Air, but funny, as its a subsidiary of Lion Air, the website has nothing on them.
They have recently ordered a big number of ATR-72, and a few have arrived. Pretty impressive aircraft, full glass cockpit, perhaps options for EFB...sweet!
Lion Air's rep, CAE, handles training for the 737, but it does not state on the pilot provisioning web page about ATR training program. Neither does EagleJet...

Does anyone have positive leads to recruitment personnel to contact? Or a recruitment drive in the pipeline?

Much appreciated....

Happy landings!

[pklucky888]

have a look at page 12 of the forum

Eagle jet International (First Officer training)

[Meathead Pilot]

Wings air hired a couple of type rated expat FO's recently... I think they are still looking for type rated guys..;)

[nyamukterbang]

sorry if its out of topic
if i want to apply for wings air where can i apply instead of rishworth?

[jawad]

Does lion air hire Pakistani Pilots Holding ICAO CPL/IR ?

[jetjockey696]

I guess lion, will lose a few more european pilots after christmas... Due to a fact that a agency (NZ) are looking for NG pilots(FO & capt) for european ops. Next feb. Thats if they havent jumped already:E i think the africa job..flying NG is much better paid and better T &C.. Than this airlines..more like walt disney airlines... :p

[menikos]

It's not an airline it's a real joke :ugh:

[captain.weird]

I thought there was a cadet pilot programme offered by Lion Air or Wings Air, am I right? Is this only open for locals?

[nosmo king]

Can any Ex-pat contract Captains tell us what its like working for Lion and living in Indonesia please?

[Macarto]

Any LionAir Cadets whom have no experience prior to joining the cadet programme through the assessment at CAE and is now a LionAir Pilot? Would love to hear your side of the story.

Cheers,
Mark

[Pin Head]

will they ever need contract FO's?

[tarmac12]

The only way Lion Air would start hiring qualified and experienced FO's is if they have a hull loss and the DGCA are forced to act on the shameful way they source crew.

[Jerry Lee]

Please guys, stop posting if you have only to criticize Lion Air and the pilots that fly or are going to fly for them. It doesn't contribuite to the thread.

[jetjockey696]

I heard recently from Lion Air senior pilot, that a few indian pilots got caught recently with fake B737 type rating..

They PAID an indian DGCA officer to stamp a B737 type rating on into there license... all this scheme fell apart during the sim check.. they couldnt even do a simple preflight....totally lost.

Well I think if this the case of indian aviation.. I think India is a very dangerous to fly as a pax compared to Indonesia. So many fake pilots..:=


India may have 4000 'fake' pilots (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india-may-have-4000-fake-pilots-91398)

Just a few days after Parminder Kaur Gulati, a suspended pilot of Indigo airline, was arrested on charges of faking her marksheet to get a pilot licence, another arrest on the same grounds has been made. This time around, Captain J K Verma, a pilot of the national carrier Air India has been arrested.

"We have arrested Verma. Investigations are on. We have been provided more names by the Directorate General Civil Aviation (DGCA). The scanner is on two more pilots - Meenakshi Sehgal of Indigo and Swaran Singh Talwar of MDLR," a senior police official said.

It all began after Parminder Kaur Gulati was grounded two months ago for violating landing norms. The matter was then reported to the aviation watchdog, the DGCA. The airline watchdog admits there was a lapse, but says 4000 pilot licences are now under fresh scrutiny.

"In the wake of the fake pilot scare, licenses of 3,000 to 4,000 pilots are being scrutinised by the DGCA," said Civil Aviation secretary Nasim Zaidi.

To get a licence, a pilot has to clear three subjects. But in Gulati's case, a probe by the DGCA showed she couldn't clear two papers, so she allegedly forged the marksheets.

Read more at: India may have 4000 'fake' pilots (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india-may-have-4000-fake-pilots-91398&cp)

[aviator_88]

hey jetjockey696,

can you tell us what's the current situation with Lion Air?? Are they accepting new pilots?? From EJ or whoever...also, are new aircraft arriving and who the hell is flying them??

[jetjockey696]

Aviator88

Yes they are accepting FOs. there is a high turn over of expat FOs. the ONLY way IN is PAYING one of the 3 companies. NO direct entry.. No use coming here and handing in CV or talk with these guys..etc... they would smile and direct you to one the following companies.. save your airfare.
Direct entry is only for LOCALS... :ok:

so these 3 companies are endorsed by lion... :ok:

Eaglejet
California falcon aviation
MSD (mainly for indians)

and recently one more... Fly gosh... he cheaper... but does not supply pilots to Lion... he does other airlines, like merpati, sriwijaya and citilink (garuda)

I keep telling people... when you come here.. you need to be very patient, you are running on INdonesian time for doing things. .. once you get accepted... except to start in a few months...ish.:ok:

[jetjockey696]

Last count there are around 300 expat in lion...include 4 P2F captains. 2x american, Venezuelan, Greek... more are coming every month.. nearly every month there 20 candidates.. the instructors are over worked due to a large influx..

Few are against P2F...and shout out... but i see there is a lot more lovers than hates...all quiet about it..shy...but some try not to pay... these 100% of CPL holders with 200hrs then write in to lion, in there CV all are willing to pay for there typerating everyday..:ok::E

[aviator_88]

is there a big "flow" of pilots??

**I mean, are there enough pilots leaving and airplanes arriving to make constant demand for new first officers??

thank you for info.

[captjns]

What deserves more respect???? paying both a TRTO and Airline for a job? or building time and earning that job?

[Silver Spur]

@captjns: The later indeed:ok: There was no such thing as "paying your way up the RHS of a jet" when I or we, started flying.

Anyways, I am current commander on the B737-400, anyone has any idea if I can apply direct to Lion?

Thanks

SS

[Flywiz]

Hi guys recently I've heard of people talking abt flygosh . Has anyone been recruited through them . I'm going for the merpati exam on this 24th of jan .

[wisecaptain]

Silver spur ' if you want to join LionAir you must go through an agency like Rishworth.They require hours on the NG so you will have to have at least 1000hrs on type as a line checker/TRI or TRE.They dont want run of the mill line captains.

[jetjockey696]

yep.. now fly goshh are looking for direct entry capt for 9600usd net... take home... so that is the best paid for Indonesia capt.. most are paying 6 to 8usd only...