RTO:Aircraft positonning

[alphaflare]

Hi,
Please appreciate your knowledge regarding RTO and how to position the aircraft in case of an eng fire function the wind direction, with all possibilities in case of tailwind,headwind,crosswind(left ,right) etc....and is this recommeded by your compagny or your S.O.P?. many thanks.

[wiggy]

If possible/circumstances allow turn into any headwind, turn away from any tailwind.

(From our Ops Manual).

[captjns]

In the event of a rejected takeoff because of an engine fire or catastrophic failure… stay on the runway where emergency vehicles have more solid ground to circle the aircraft. If possible, turn the aircraft so the fire is downwind of the fuselage, while passengers evacuate upwind away from smoke and fumes.

[roljoe]

Yeap, agree with Captijns..

Anyway just a matter of "Good Sense"...In doubt, you could always ask by VHF for positioning the plane ideally, people outside have a better view on this subject..
rgds

[Mephistopheles]

I wouldn't be asking ATC any advice on positioning-not that I don't trust them but I feel it would take up valuable time with no guaranties of anything useful being said. On the other hand if a high speed RTO has been carried out & there is no immediate threat then fire services on the scene could be asked to have a look at the aircraft-i.e.gear before vacating the runway.

Otherwise, try to keep the fire downwind.

[PantLoad]

I don't recall reading any Airbus document suggesting positioning the aircraft any certain way after an RTO due to fire. I may be wrong, as I many times am, however.

Having said that, it is in our OPS manual to do so....if possible...to use the wind to blow the fire, smoke, flames, etc., away from the fuselage.

Airbus does mention in the RTO section of FCOM 3 that, if at all possible, when an evacuation is probable, we are to stay on the runway. Do not attempt to exit the runway onto a taxiway. Reasoning is mentioned in
above posts.


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[Fil]

Turning works fine on smaller aircraft, A320/737 etc but it is thought that doing so on a large one, 777/747/340 etc could impede the fire services as they may not be able to quickly get to the burning engine. Also, if a false alarm you may not be able to move without ending up off the paved surface!

[muduckace]

This is really not much of a subject. Engine fire,RTO,egress on the runway directing egress to the safe direction. Not enough time to think about wind direction, nor is a significant influence given the most important factor.... Egress in the opposite side of the indicated failure/fire.

[L337]

Not enough time to think about wind direction

Yes there is.

"turn into any headwind, turn away from any tailwind"

It is regularly practised in the simulator, and you would be expected to do it in BA. With the above provisos of size and the 777/ 744.

This procedure was as a result of the 737 Fire at Manchester in 1985.

British Airtours Flight 28M (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19850822-0)

[Floppy Link]

...and the MAN fire was with only a 5 kt wind!

[cortilla]

I'm not a captain and so in the a/c i fly i will not be in control of any rto that we do, and this is not sop at my company but.. some captains i fly with say if the wind is from the left and the fire is on the left then turn left. if the wind is from the right and the fire is on the right, turn right. otherwise stay on the c/l.

I'm not sure if i can remember this in the event i do an rto when i'm a captain. I think the adrenaline will kick in and i'll stay on the c/l.

[Mach E Avelli]

I tend to agree that stopping on the centerline could be the safest option UNLESS it is immediately obvious where the fire is in relation to the wind direction, and the wind itself is fairly strong. Screwing it up and turning the wrong way could be disastrous, whereas stopping straight will at least ensure that the fire is being blown back (assuming there was some headwind component in the first place). Also there is the issue of easy access for emergency vehicles. In the latter regard, I would never go off the runway onto a narrower taxiway just to face more into wind. Stop, shut down and if fire warning still present, order the evacuation. Leave choice of exits to cabin crew. Without the full picture, very dangerous for flight deck to be nominating exits when they can't see outside. Just because an engine fire has occurred on one side does not necessarily block any or all exits on that side.

[BOAC]

Not enough time to think about wind direction, - to re-inforce L337's post, there is all the time you need - it is called a take-off briefing. Most of us have always done one and included the 'turn', which is based on the offending engine and head or tailwind, and the aim is to improve survivability of pax and crew, not the a/c and not to 'allow' vehicle access - and in any case I would have hoped to have an evac well under way (with a major engine malfunction/fire) BEFORE they arrived.

[deltahotel]

Agree with L337. Only thing I'd add is that you need to wait til you're nearly stopped before doing the turning thing otherwise you will use too much of the runway width.

DH

[toby320]

well, in my opinion is most important to be sure of you are on fire and what side of the aircraft is involve and then do the call of evacuate on the opposite side of the fire, if you can do a turn in order to maintain head wind will be a plus.

[M.Mouse]

I read much aviation related material to enhance my knowledge and hopefully performance.

I am constantly amazed at the theories espoused on PPRUNE. The act of turning into wind was the first safety recommendation made in the official report into the BA B737 accident at Manchester.

For those who have their own pet theories please read the report and then come back and say whether you will still do your own thing rather than take into account wind direction with an RTO and fire.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/cms_resources/8-1988%20G-BGJL.pdf

[muduckace]

What I am saying is if in a real fire/egress condition, your preflight SOP should prioritize your actions. Wind direction being a factor the side of the aircraft the fire exists on is certainly important.

If the aircraft position negates the wind force what's the point. Cabin communications/tower contact/systems control obviously becomes more important. All this happens in seconds.. not minutes. Just like any emergency all the training in the world can not truely prepare you for this experience. I just imagine having to concider wind direction in this experience, great procedure but unless you have had time to prepare for it it is on the short side of your "to do" list.

[Stone_cold]

From the "report" it seems to indicate that the Capt initiated a turn OFF the runway which exacerbated the wind effect .(Not criticizing) as other factors were at play .
But what if : 1) the wind is variable
2) the wind changes during takeoff roll,
3) a direct X-wind , how much into wind turn
do you suggest ?
This is a discussion and I do not think that anyone is inventing their own procedures . The recommendation is just that ,a recommendation, and most of us are guided by manufacturers and company SOP's . If it could be regulated , it would have been , so the decision on the day does rest with the Commander ,with due considration to all relevant factors and practices .

[Bullethead]

When I first started flying multi-engined jet aircraft, the B707, in 1982 it was impressed upon me that every fire related RTO should be stopped into wind or at least with the hot side downwind.

I used this technique when I joined my present company and was roundly told it was a waste of time and not required. I have my own views as to what I will do if such an event ever happens to me.

Regards,
BH.

[Bruce Waddington]

alphaflare,

I have read with interest the reponses to your question.

My opinion is that one should bring the aircraft to a stop on the runway in a very rapid manner as recommended by all manufacurers. If there is a problem with tires you will know soon enough and can adjust your reject procedure accordingly.

Once you have stopped , stow reverse thrust, set the park brake and evaluate the situation using all available resources. Then make a decision as to what you want to do.

Fire can burn through very qiuckly so if you need to evacuate do it as expiditiously as possible wasting no time for turns into wind, crosswind or any other way.

Stay in the middle of the runway and give the Fire/Rescue bunch a lot of space to work with.

best regards,

Bruce Waddington

[B737-800W]

In my company is sop's and i believe this is right:
Stay on the runway, if the fire is right turn right, if the fire is left turn left, this is applicable only in headwind conditions, in tailwind conditions is exactly the opposite.
and if the captain wants to turn the wrong way, you are there to TELL him the right way!!! :)

[A37575]

We have tried this in the 737 simulator (turning into the wind, that is.) The problem is you must first use max braking capability to stop the aircraft. The operative word is "Stop" and park the brakes. You then have to decide whether to tackle the fire-warning immediately. Or do you open up both throttles and use nosewheel steering to "screw" the nosewheel around to position the aircraft with regard to any wind direction. In the simulator that takes valuable seconds and meanwhile you can bet your life the passengers are releasing their seat belts and scrambling for exits. Harsh nose wheel steering to full lock will quickly throw them all over the place, adding to the panic.

And don't even think about watching the ground speed and leaving the "screwing" of the nose wheel until you are about five knots. It is all about being wise after the event. The Manchester B737 event was ameliorated by the pilot's decision to clear the runway and get on the adjacent taxiway -which took valuable time. The massive fuel spill caused by a part of the engine putting a hole in the fuel tank is an event that could never have been foreseen and certainly not "practiced " before in a simulator.

Originally, Boeing criticised the pilot for not applying maximum braking and stopping straight ahead. In a later amendment to the FCTM I believe Boeing changed their advice to say apply max braking until you are sure the aircraft will stop within the remaining runway ahead. The pilot is then faced with the decision to stop with max braking ahead (assuming engine fire warning) - or ease up on the braking with a long runway. In the latter case, the risk is those extra seconds taken to reduce heavy braking because of excess runway ahead, could mean less time available to evacuate if the fire breaches the cabin (Manchester).

Opinions differ but one view is that when faced with an engine fire warning requiring an abort, the aircraft should be brought to an immediate stop with maximum braking regardless of the luxury of a long runway ahead. The crew may not know if the engine fire is severe, is a small fire or even if it is a false warning. Risking hot brakes the safest bet is to stop with maximum braking and then cross the next bridge. A cynic would say that after the event it is a monte that someone will try and prove the pilot did something wrong. All interested parties have their own agenda in aircraft accidents.

Harking back to the original discussion on whether to try and stop with regards to the prevailing wind at the time - then next time you are in a simulator give it a try. It is more difficult than you might think - especially if you have gone for absolute maximum braking until actually stopping. Every second may count when it comes to evacuating a cabin filled with heat and smoke.

[Rainboe]

I find quoting the mantra to yourself and even pre-takeoff briefing it is not enough. I have a procedure I follow turning onto the runway. Radar on, ensure transponder is switched on (that's dropped off the checklist!), lights on, quiet review of the wind, and I announce to the copilot 'if the LEFT/RIGHT engine has a fire, we will turn left/right as we stop'. That way, there is no doubt, or working out to do, and it is the last thing in our minds as we roll.

As for asking ATC about aircraft positioning in an RTO......is that serious?

[FullWings]

I think A37575 makes some very valid points.

It's all very well to brief "we'll turn left/right", etc. but we don't really cover how we are we going to do it.

A modern "heavy" using a dry runway with anti-lock going on fresh carbon brakes, full reverse and aerodynamic braking will probably decelerate at 1g or more. That's 60kts to stopped in less than 3 seconds. When are you going to initiate this manoeuvre? Too early and your partner-in-crime might think you've lost control. Too late and you're at a standstill. If you stop, then set off again, if you're obviously on fire (as seen from the cabin) an evacuation may already be in progress. :ooh:

IMHO this is something that is talked about a lot since Manchester but rarely practiced. In a widebody on an average runway, you don't have to go far off the centreline to make it more difficult for the emergency services to get to you. I've heard some people suggest going right over to one side then bringing the aircraft back to the middle at an angle... Great idea but as pointed out, wasting valuable time in doing so if you are going to evacuate anyway.

I tend to agree that there is too much emphasis put on the very unlikely scenario of an engine on fire with a ruptured fuel tank. If this is the case, it's really not your day. If you do the engine fire checklist properly it'll probably go out 999,999 times out of a million. I also wonder about the airflow around a fuselage/wing when side on to the wind - there might be some sort of reverse flow that dragged the flames upwind anyway...

[javelin]

The quicker you stop, tell someone and let the professional services have full access to your aeroplane, the sooner the potential emergency will be contained - this is why the whole community work together and why we trust the fire and emergency services that when we call, they will come.

I believe that this is best done by stopping straight ahead, calling the emergency, doing the on ground emergency checklist and co-ordinating with the fire boss on 121.6.

It is what I brief, this is what I will do in the unfortunate event of it happening.

As a result of seeing what has happened previously and discussing things with members of the emergency services, I am sure that it is the correct approach.

[4dogs]

There has been a lot said about positioning the aircraft to give the Fire Services best access. An admirable consideration, except when there are no such services or the response takes longer than you dream to be the case.

I plan for minimising the risk to the aircraft and the escaping passengers. I brief the RTO actions with and without a fire before I release brakes. Like A37575, I have also done it in the sim and trained it there also. Unlike A37575, I have never found it that hard nor is it that time consuming to position the aircraft so as to reduce the effect of any crosswind of the fire path or fire debris/sparks.

The opinions about passenger behaviour I do not share. First, if you are max rate stopping (and there is no sensible alternative!), they will be pinned in their seats by their seat belts. If you are at least partially into wind, even if all cabin discipline breaks down and the passengers decide to evacuate, you will have minimised the risk to them. In most cases, the passengers will be well into the evacuiation, controlled or otherwise, before you see a fire vehicle (if they are available).

We train and pay Captains to think about these situations on each and every occasion - there is trained reaction and process for RTO but no rote solution for positioning at the end.

[rotkiv]

When you are positioning the A/C into the wind you also have to consider the operation of the doors. As you know, the doors open outwards and it might be very hard for a C/A to open them, even in light headwind.

So, what to do?

[Capt. Inop]

So, what to do?

Read A37575's post, especially the last sentence.