ATPL = Degree ??

[anotheradam]

Hello,
Does the ATPL qualification carry any H. E. (higher education) credits?? Has anyone out there made this enquiry before? I am looking into getting a teaching qualification in maths or physics. In order to do so I will have to attend a maths or physics enhancement course (to get up to speed), but in order to get on to a Post Graduate Certificate Course (PGcert), the ATPL would have to be viewed as a first degree, or carry at least 300 credit accumulation transfer points (CAT).
Thanks

[mtanz0]

I don't think so, UCAS doesn't even recognise the ATPL qualification so it's unlikely than a higher education institution would regard it as a degree, unless you could convince them it was some sort of Aeronatucial Aviation degree.

[lovezzin]

I dont mind swapping my Aeronautical Engineering Degree (from a Top 10 UK Uni) for your ATPL qualifications if you like....:}:ok: haha LOL!

[Groundloop]

For the Air Transport Operations with ATPL degree at City University the ATPL covers the 2nd year of a 3 year degree and contributes 25% to the final degree classification and is worth 140 credits. I believe London Met has a similar weighting for the ATPL in their degree.

Nowhere near worth 300 credits I'm afraid.

[chock2chock]

On completion of the Oxford APP (Integrated course) they give you a foundation degree (equivalent of an Associates Degree).

[mad_jock]

That will be the same degree as now awarded by MacDonalds for getting 5 stars on your name badge, and passing the MacDonalds management course.


I kid you not.

A degree in burger flipping.

[Mickey Kaye]

I was forced to have a hiatus in my flying about 15 years ago due to ill health and it was a bloody nightmare.

No uni's would recognize my ATPL or had even heard of it for that matter. So I had to do my A levels first. Unfortunately my local A level college wouldn't recognize it either although they did let me do A levels on the strength of my 5 O levels.

Basically you will be dealing with academics who have never heard of the qualification and have no idea of the standard, effort and application that is required to obtain one.

Even know I look back and think that my chemistry teacher and Uni personal tutor never believed that I used to fly for a living.

Good luck.

[Aussie John]

Answering a load of multiple choice questions that you have seen before does not even come close to an A level, degree? HA HA HA.

[victorc10]

Yes, unfortunately it doesn't really compare to a scientific degree. If studied properly, perhaps a couple of science 'A' levels.

Otherwise I would second Aussie John

[GS-Alpha]

I'd say more like a couple of science GCSEs myself.

[anotheradam]

I can understand what you are all saying, but what I am researching is becoming a maths or physics teacher. I can learn the syllabus for both (there are special 6 month courses). I have been an instructor for many years as well as charter pilot. I know I can communicate well and would be a reallly good teacher. What I want to persuade the University to do is to allow me on a post graduate teaching course. As the ATPL is not recognised as a full degree, perhaps my flying experience and instructing might make up for the rest. I believe that it is discretionary on the part of the education provider where it comes to mature students.
Has anyone else tried this? Do you think I am peeing whilst standing with an area of low pressure on my right?
Cheers

[Whirlygig]

The maths and physics contained within ATPL is nowhere near enough to be a maths or physics teacher. ATPL does not have any differential or integral calculus, stats and probability, number theory, euclidean geometry, nuclear physics, quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, electromagnetism (not the same as electrics).

You would have to demonstrate that you are comfortable with all aspects of maths and the best way of that is to have a degree in the subject.

Cheers

Whirls

[Mickey Kaye]

"Answering a load of multiple choice questions that you have seen before does not even come close to an A level, degree? HA HA HA."

In my day it didn't work like that you brought a dozen books from the CAA recommended reading list. Memorized the lot then sat the exam. However the hardest part was trying to fit this all in around an 60 hour a week job stacking boxes in a warehouse which was frequently on nights.

In comparison the two degrees I have done since were a walk in the park - student life is was pretty easy.

[tocamak]

A possible way of finding out (although they may charge I think) is with the Open University at:

Credit Transfer - About Credit Transfer (http://www3.open.ac.uk/credit-transfer/about.shtm)

I was awarded 120 points at level 1 on the basis of a Master Mariner Certificate but this involved a cumulative college study of 18 months whilst gaining the two lower level certificates first as well as a further six months for the Masters. By comparison the ATPL writtens took a 7 week full time course (very good course though) so I don't anticipate that they would award the same amount but may be worth a go. Good luck.

[markieboy1234]

Many flying schools do not even ask for A-levels as entry requirements so as for using it as a degree, you have no chance. It is ultimatly a vocacional qualification that is needed to be a pilot, but for anything else it's use is extremely limited.

[Mikehotel152]

A Degree is 3 years of attending lectures, studying in the library every now and then, drinking beer in the student bar at least one long session per day, unsuccessfully chatting up the opposite sex, night-clubbing and the odd all-nighter essay writing marathon. :}

That said, it's still more work overall than the ATPL, which can be done fairly easily in 6 months if you do it full time. You don't even have to understand what you're studying provided you learn the Question Bank! Mind you, those 6 months are tough!

Therefore, I'm not surprised it's not recognised as a Higher Education Qualification. :p

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree with Whirlygig - school maths and physics are far beyond ATPL standard, and cover an enormous amount of material which isn't in there.

Another thing, as indelicately put by Aussie John, is that ATPL writtens are multiple choice, based upon memorisation of material. The CPL/ATPL flying content is then specific training for a job.

This is a big difference from education - building of understanding and learning skills over many years, which is what a schoolteacher is doing.

Personally I found my first degree (in aeronautical engineering) much tougher than my CPL writtens, and also requires very different learning skills.



Also, I'm sure we'd agree that ATPL flying shouldn't be taught by somebody without more than an ATPL alone. So, why should a school allow maths A-level to be taught by somebody who hasn't gone well beyond maths A level themselves.


Frankly, I think that the only way ahead is to do a first degree in a numerate subject - maths, physics or engineering. The good news is that you can do this through the Open University in your own time. If you really do have degree level skills, then it'll be quick and easy. If you don't, then you needed to do it anyhow.


Sometimes, you just need to jump through the hoops! I've never heard of anybody with a degree in Aerospace Engineering being let of PPL/CPL/ATPL written exams in any of the technical subjects - but I doubt that any of them struggled much either.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

15 months being, after you've stripped out summer vacations, about half the time to complete a bachelors degree (which itself has A-level or equivalent entry qualifications.)

G

[Flying Lawyer]

about half the time to complete a bachelors degree
Hmmm.
An ATPL may not be degree level, but let's not overstate the amount of time it actually takes to get a degree - even at a 'proper' university.

I read Law at King's College London. Each academic year at London was, in common with Oxford and Cambridge, about 25 weeks in practice (longer in theory) and Wednesday was 'Sports Day'. Or, in my case, University Air Squadron when the weather was good and Students Union work when it wasn't.
So, in reality, each academic year was the equivalent of 20 x 5-day weeks (25 x 4-day weeks), or 60 x 5-day weeks spread over 3 years.
I don't remember many people working genuinely full days. Those who did, with some exceptions, tended to be those who'd been lucky to get in and were struggling to keep up.

That was at one of the top colleges of one of the top universities. I have great difficulty believing an ATPL is easier to achieve than some of the dubious degrees awarded by some of the higher education institutions which are now called 'universities'.


A campaign to which I was pleased to add my name > FairPlane (http://www.fairplane.org.uk)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just thinking through this, since the challenge is worth thinking about.

Degree
Starting from A-levels (the usual: maths, further maths, physics, chemisty, general studies) I did a degree in Aeronautical Engineering at one of the UK's better universities (Southampton). That took me:

3 years x 3 terms x 12 weeks x approximately 50 hours per week.
So, that equates to about 5,400 hours. Let's say I was less energetic and averaged 40 hours per week - that makes it 4,320 hours.


ATPL
Personally, I studied for CPL writtens (I don't think that this is much different to ATPL since like most distance learning schools, the one I used bundled us with the ATPL students anyhow, and we did the ATPL practice papers) over about 2 years, putting in an average of about 5 hours per week plus 3x1-week residential groundschool. So, that would come to about 640 hours. Add in the flying 25 hours x (say) 4 hours total effort per flying hour = 100 hours. So, about 740 hours to get to CPL. For me, but I did have a lot of educational and flying experience prior to that so may not be a good example.

Or you can do it full time - a quick search shows residential schools advertising 5-6 months full time and I know that is pretty intense so let's assume 6 months x 60 hours per week without breaks = 1560 hours, plus the 100 hours for flying, so 1660 hours to get a CPL with ATPL writtens.



I've omitted a couple of things here - I've not included the IR+MCC+multi+1500 hours to get to full ATPL, but nor have I included the 2 years of industrial training, followed by 2 years of working responsibility, followed by Engineering Council presentations and interviews to become a Chartered Engineer, so I think that they're reasonably comparable (I don't know what FL had to go through after his degree to qualify as a lawyer, but imagine that it was roughly comparable). I've also omitted entry qualifications - a PPL for an ATPL course, and A-levels for a degree.

So, I reckon that if we take that ratio: 4320hrs/1660hrs, that makes the degree by my reckoning in the order of 2.6 times more work than the ATPL. If we take FL's part time humanities degree at Kings College [Note: this is engineer .v. lawyer banter, and not a serious criticism.] he comes out at 2,400 hours, which is still about 50% more hours than an ATPL - when we take the lowest estimated hours for a degree, and highest estimated hours for an ATPL..



Having said that, I will agree with a few points:

(1) Some universities, particularly some of the post 1992 "universities" which used to be polytechnical or HE colleges are certainly awarding qualifications called degrees which I wouldn't personally recognise as such. To be fair however, not all of them.

(2) Yes, student professional pilots should be regarded as students in the eyes of "the system"; I'd only add in that I'd only do so on a full time course and subject to entry qualifications equivalentish to university entry. Realistic entry qualifications should probably then be a couple of A-levels and a PPL, which seems a reasonable alternative to 3, probably better, A-levels for degree entry.

G

[Re-Heat]

If it is recognition that you are looking for, why not join the RAeS, and get an MRAeS / FRAeS in recognition of your experience and/or professional licence.

A degree is for academic study; a flying licence is a vocational and regulatory qualification. While the HE system in the UK may have sullied the distinction between the two (while failing to provide useful vocational qualifications for many...), it still remains the case that there is no element of (a) research, (b) independent reading, (c) academic debate and argument, or (d) experimentation in a licencing regime. God forbid if there were experimental test pilots all over the skies!

The point is, if you want to hold a degree, there are means of doing so in extension to work - City Uni for example, or the MSc in Air Transport Mgmt might all be of interest to those who have a further interest in academia beyond the day job.

[Genghis the Engineer]

A very good point Re-heat, the RAeS grading guide covers equivalences for everybody working in aviation from pilots to engineers, academics to artists, and lawyers to managers. MRAeS or FRAeS carries significant kudos throughout the industry and is a recognised gold standard.

G