Is this Legal ? - Flight school Chief Pilot and Airline Pilot at the same time?

[slice]

******** ***** has many years Aviation experience starting at an early age in aviation and in business. ******** started ****** ******** College and ****** *** Charter after running his own successful security firm for several years. ******** holds Diplomas in Business Management; Aviation Management and Workplace & Training.
******** is our Chief pilot and Multi Engine Flight Instructor as well as an Airline pilot flying the Airbus 320

My bolding of the last sentence but this comes straight off their website.

Having been a CP once for smaller operation than this, CASA made it quite clear to me that as far as they were concerned any work undertaken for another operator whilst CP would be in breach the relevant CAO 82 annex (ie to be employed full time).

[startingout]

I know of another place that had been in the same situation, casa had turned a blind eye to it and would have stayed the same way until it was decided that someone else should step up to the position as it meant that the company would be more rounded. :ok:

[blueloo]

THe flying school I found using some search criteria from above has some dodgy looking photos and some self appointed Captains I think. Some good hairstyles too.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Is this Legal ? - Flight school Chief Pilot and Airline Pilot at the same time?

Last time I looked - only if the flying school has one SE aircraft only!

As I understand it, any more than one a/c and the job becomes full-time. I figure the airline would also regard the job as full-time. Hard to have two full-time jobs at the same time.

Dr :8

[Scorpion83]

According to the regs below, he can delegate his duties to other member's of staff and CASA must have approved of it. If it was illeagel in the first place, why would it be advertised?

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/orders/cao82/8200.pdf
CAO 82.0 Appendix 1
1 Approval of Chief Pilot by CASA
1.1 A person must not be appointed as, or act as, a Chief Pilot unless the person’s
appointment has been approved in writing by CASA after application in
writing by the operator.
3 Delegation by Chief Pilot
3.1 A Chief Pilot, in exercising any responsibility, may delegate duties to other
members of the operator’s staff, but may not delegate training and checking
duties without the written approval of CASA.

[Goat Whisperer]

that page was enough to dissuade me from ever darkening their corridors.

It will take them a little while to work up to merely shady.

[apache]

Chief PILOT, not Chief FLYING INSTRUCTOR!!!!

and I think CASA are not too upset about this because they do not do that many "charters".... just basically sydney harbour scenic flights.

The CFI is also the Deputy CP, so that would cover that too, I would say.

[bushy]

We appear to have rubbery rules.

[Atlas Shrugged]

37 years of flying experience with only 7457 hrs seems a little low at an average 200 odd per year for a "Captain"

[Triple Captain]

A freight mob down south apparently had an exemption from CASA which allowed their CP to fly for VB and hold CP position.

[Triple Captain]

I cant find an AOC... Gone??

[Jeps]

slice,

I am doing my flight training at the place you have in question and from what I have seen the person in question is rarely present at the school and I think it's more of a title. It is his business so his presence there is always to do with that side of things.

[sms777]

It seems Mr slice's failure in aviation turned him in to a whistle blower.
Shame on you Mr slice :=

[blueloo]

From first hand experience, Do they (the youngers ones with hair
0)all use "product" in their hair to look really cool? As per the photo?

[capt_akun]

I believe the CEO/Chief pilot of the company who you are talking isn't actually an A320 pilot anymore. I have been told by someone who used to hang around there, that the CP went to india and paid for his a320 endorsement over there for a few months, later return back here. Hardly "airline pilot"!!

On a side note, I have had bad experiences with the bunch, ranging from cancelling our booking on our aircraft hires, even though we hired it through the owner! to very dodgy practises with maintenance.

[Horatio Leafblower]

The role of Chief Pilot, in a company of that size, is specifically required to be full time under the appx in the CAOs.

There is no such requirement placed on the position of CFI, although common sense might suggest that this also would need to be a FT position in such an organisation.

Can someone please explain to me the position of "Deputy CP"? Last time I put up a candidate for that position I was told (by CASA) that there is no scope for such an approval or appointment, and further that CASA could not issue an approval for a Chief Pilot unless the previous CP was resigning, ie: a company cannot have 2 approved Chief Pilots.

SMS777

Regardless of Slice's success or otherwise in his aviation career, I think it is legitimate to question how a company can obtain advantage while aparrently in blatant breach of the CAO's applicable to everyone else.

Why should my operation work so hard to remain compliant (at significant cost) when the operator down the road can breach the rules with impunity? It is nice to occupy the moral high ground, but... :=

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Why should my operation work so hard to remain compliant (at significant cost) when the operator down the road can breach the rules with impunity?

Welcome to GA, and probably other levels as well, in Australia. I have been hanging around in GA for 35 years and its been going on for as long as I can remember - and is alive and well today!

Dr :8

[pcx]

AH, but the question is, is he a full time employee of the operation of which he is chief pilot.
The answer may very well be "yes" as he appears to own the operation.
The issue of whether or not he also has another job is another matter. The CAO only says that he must be employed full time by the opperator and can not be the CP of another operator, not that he can not work for another operator.
I think the real question in this situation is whether or not he is adequately carrying out the duties and responsibilities of the CP.
I do not know the operator or the operation so I make no comment or inference either way.
However it seems to me that if he has another flying job and he makes the appropriate flight and duty time calculations, then it is no different to having a second job at Macca's or anywhere else.

[sms777]

I can understand you are upset about this topic but most of the companies i have worked for employ or employed CP's that work or worked for airlines while acting as CP for a flying school. The last one had a CP as an airline pilot while being CP for a Singapore based flying op also being CP for a Bankstown based mob. I am sure you know who i am talking about.
Like Forky said it has been the practice for donkeys years and it is here to stay, like it or not. :(

[porch monkey]

Guess that change will be delayed just a little longer, eh Owen.

P.S. Triple Captain, the "exemption" of which you speak has ZERO to do with VB.

[werbil]

Horatio Leafblower

Deputy Chief Pilot - duties / functions / responsibilites are as determined by the companies ops manual. It's the CP's arse that's on the line with CASA though - if the Deputy CP :mad: up with the delegated duties the CP takes the heat.

An operator can have an additional chief pilot pre-approved by CASA in case the CP is no longer available to perform his/her duties. There is a $$$ figure involved as well as a CP interview and a flight check. And if the nominated person moves on you do your $$.

[slice]

sms777, what has led you to believe that I have 'failed' in aviation ??? And what leads you to believe that I am whistleblowing? The information posted comes off a public .com website. I am sure they knew what they were doing when they published the staff profile.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Werbil

Thanks for that - I have been CP of three operations and CFI of two of them, so I know the drill.

However you suggest:An operator can have an additional chief pilot pre-approved by CASA in case the CP is no longer available to perform his/her duties. There is a $$$ figure involved as well as a CP interview and a flight check...

...that's what I thought too but Reg Services and my local CASA office feel differently. :ugh:

[porch monkey]

You used to be able to have someone "pre approved" to take over for short times, ie leave, LSL whatever. Haven't used that provision for years now, it did require an exam and flight test. Don't know what happens with that now.

[Mach E Avelli]

From CASA Form 686:

Although only one person may hold the position of Chief Pilot at any one time, an AOC holder may have more than one person assessed for the appointment as a Chief Pilot.

Having another person already assessed for the Chief Pilot position provides the AOC holder with a timely replacement should the current Chief Pilot leave.

[Mach E Avelli]

Adding to the above, the usual reason why operators don't do this is not money - unless they are totally skint anyway. The approval process is not nearly as costly as losing an AOC for lack of a post-holder. The real reason is usually because incumbent chief pilots protect their territory. For some mysterious reason in most companies there is never anyone else as good or suitable as the incumbent. It does mean that the chief pilot often has the boss by the nuts, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on integrity etc.
If CASA did their job they would make it a requirement that the chief pilot always had an understudy being mentored. CASA huffs and puffs about it at audits, but it never seems to happen in real life.

[slice]

Well, no reply from sms777. Must feel like a bit of a tw@t.

[sms777]

No Mr slice.
I was just wondering that you have obviously been aware that this practice has been going around for many years and alive all over the country, and it will continue going on because as you have noticed there is nothing done about it.
So.... why the sudden upset? :hmm:

[slice]

No actually I have not been aware of this practice - the Sydney basin might be a different kettle of fish but out west and up north CASA seemed to be pretty explicit on that one (to me at least). The company in question would seem to have a CP that is effectively occupying 2 full time jobs concurrently, if in fact he is a airline pilot. Possibly some stretching of the truth as to the airline side of it. And as to failure in my aviation career ?

[apache]

FWIW ... the person in Question DOES fly A320's for an airline, and is NO LONGER CP, or indeed owner of said business.

moot point now.