Gear up landing - grass vs sealed strip ?

[aseanaero]

If you had to do an on airport gear up landing and you could choose between a sealed runway or a grass runway (assuming both equally favorable in terms of wind strength and direction) or verge which would you go for ?

I've heard various opinions on this , some say the sealed runway is a better option as there's less risk of a prop digging in that you might get on a grass runway.

I'm sure a few have actually been in this situation , witnessed or repaired an aircraft after a gear up it so what's the preferred option for a gear up landing , grass or sealed runway ?

[ZKSTF]

I have no doubt that you will here many different theories but one that I would recommend (and it is similar for a car accident as well) is, an accident where the deceleration is slower (more gradual) is better for the aircraft and most importantly the human body.

We are not designed to take those kind of knocks and hi g's associated with a sudden stop. As you are more likely to slide a bit more on a sealed runway then perhaps this is an advantage.

(Just to kick things off on this thread!)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

This is one of those things that you really need to think through before you find yourself in that situation.

I think the evidence is quite clear.

Put it down on the bitumen!

Cheers

Dr :8

[aseanaero]

I spoke to a aircraft engineer once about this and he had repaired aircraft that had landed gear up on grass and sealed runways and he said that the sealed runway landing is an easier repair as its usually airframe skin repair , antennaes etc as the grass runway landings typically tend to cause more structural damage (airframes bent, engines being torn from mounts) due to airframe parts or props digging in (particularly feathered props)

[SM227]

Ive been told that in a high wing (and I guess low wing in certain circumstances), there is a risk of your wing digging into the grass and then you start cartwheeling down the strip!

[VH-XXX]

Bitumen!

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/MichealJacksonPopcorn.gif

[Cloud Cutter]

Not hearing a lot of support for grass - I agree!

The only wheels-up I've personally witnessed (a metro) looked very docile until the thing drifted off onto the grass and did a fairly spritely 180 (at low speed).

There may be a slightly reduced likelyhood of fire on the grass, but plenty of other things would usually make grass a very distant second.

[Peter Fanelli]

(particularly feathered props)


Never EVER feather props for a gear up landing!
Aircraft have been known to end up on their backs from such actions.
5 people died from that in an Aztec once.

[aseanaero]

Never EVER feather props for a gear up landing!


Too right but it still happens

I saw a really nasty landing on TV years ago of a light twin landing gear up with one prop feathered and the other in fine , the fine prop just bent and the feathered engine was ripped off the wing , nacelle and all.

[CS-CCO]

Sorry for the slight offtopic but if you're flying down the coast line and need to perform a forced landing where would you land it? The sand or ditch it within the first few feet of water?

[Tarq57]

That would depend on a few things, but I'd usually go for the sand, unless it was known to be soft, or had obstructions.
Landed on a couple of beaches before, no great drama. Got to avoid the sand above the high water mark, logs, and sunbathers of course.

[D-J]

Sorry for the slight offtopic but if you're flying down the coast line and need to perform a forced landing where would you land it? The sand or ditch it within the first few feet of water?

Assuming you were in a fixed gear a/c or could get the gear down, the first few feet of damp sand & touch down as gently as possible

if the wheels are up.....:mad: hmmm I'd most likely do the same& strap in hard

[aseanaero]

Remember when P-51 VH-BOB landed gear up at Point Cook he went for the grass ? Great landing but it looked a bit hairy when he hit a patch of loose soil

[aussie027]

I've had this discussion many times over the yrs with lots of pilots from all sorts of backgrounds and the general consensus was as stated above.
A sealed surface if available and leave the props unfeathered.
The results otherwise can be very tragic and expensive.:uhoh::uhoh:

[flywatcher]

Saw a 210 do an accidental gear up on grass, the engineers lifted it up, put another prop on it, lowered the gear, flew it back to base for repairs. There were no airframe repairs necessary at all, a bit of paint missing and a new aerial was all it took.

[kingRB]

Saw a 210 do an accidental gear up on grass, the engineers lifted it up, put another prop on it, lowered the gear, flew it back to base for repairs. There were no airframe repairs necessary at all, a bit of paint missing and a new aerial was all it took.

i'm assuming the engine was not shut down prior to touch down as it was an"accidental gear up"... How would they know the crankshaft / conrods / pushrods / valves or pistons had not sustained damage?

I wouldnt be too keen on flying anything that had just had a prop strike.

[rutan around]

Flywatcher
Your incident says more about the design merits of the 210 than the adviseability of gear-ups on grass. The following refers to 210s. The Cessna Pilots Association has a vast accident database and they unreservedly recommend landing on a sealed strip, and not to let the firies put down fire retardant as the aircraft just slides on and on till it gets past the end of the retardant and THEN stops. Carry a waddy or capsicum spray to keep the firies away from your aircraft when it stops (my advice). They do more damage with their foam than the wheels-up. Also they are very enthusiastic about using their axes. Landing on grass tends to scoop up heaps of dirt and grass into everything, as well as stretching skin panels and bashing belly ribs that on a tar landing wouldn't be touched.
Cheers

[Jay & Silent Bob]

Quote:
Never EVER feather props for a gear up landing!
Too right but it still happens

I saw a really nasty landing on TV years ago of a light twin landing gear up with one prop feathered and the other in fine , the fine prop just bent and the feathered engine was ripped off the wing , nacelle and all.

I'm just at the PPL training stage, how does feathering the prop make a gear up landing worse?

[ZEEBEE]

Having done both...

Grass with a Baron 58, and Bitumen with a Navajo, I'd rate the ride much better on the bitumen, but the smoke from the heat on the bitumen landing can be a bit disconcerting.

Neither outcome was pretty, but given the choice, I'd go for the bitumen everytime.

[18-Wheeler]

Adding to the above - bitumen for sure.
Got that from an aeroplane wrecker bloke i knew. He's seen a LOT of crashed aeroplanes and from a lot of evidence, he said bitumen was definitely the go.

[kingRB]

I'm just at the PPL training stage, how does feathering the prop make a gear up landing worse?

basically when the prop is fine and contacts the ground, it just bends backwards. When its fully feathered or almost at zero angle to the direction of aircraft travel, it wont bend, it digs in. This is particularly bad on grass or soft earth as it can violently decelerate the aircraft, either ripping structures apart or even flipping the aircraft if the engine mounts dont give way.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Then there was the C-310 working for the CSIRO Rain Making which did a wheels up due u/c probs. at Mascot many years ago - grass I think.

T'was the twin bladed prop version of the time. Pilot stopped engines in flight, by 'reducing airspeed', punched starter motors till blades were horizontal, then put it down with minimal VISIBLE damage.
The Sydney Morning Herald of the time had photos.

Plenty of room at the largely 'uncluttered' Mascot of those days.

:ok:

Then again there was also the C210 - BRAND NEW ONE - which did a real 'oooops...' wheels up at Cessnock on the bitumin the late 60's...very smooothh landing otherrwise....and minimal damage to airframe apparently.
(Skin, ADF antenna etc)
:eek:
Have to agree with the 'Hard Stuff'....makes a lot of noise, but is better for both you and the machine I reckon...

[Jay & Silent Bob]

basically when the prop is fine and contacts the ground, it just bends backwards. When its fully feathered or almost at zero angle to the direction of aircraft travel, it wont bend, it digs in. This is particularly bad on grass or soft earth as it can violently decelerate the aircraft, either ripping structures apart or even flipping the aircraft if the engine mounts dont give way.

Of course, thanks.

[Exaviator]

If you happen to be flying a Fairy Gannet and can't get the gear down you open the bomb bay doors and land on the bitumen suitably foamed. Only damage a new pair of bomb bay doors. :cool:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2476/3571742959_1308596033_m.jpg

[Tmbstory]

Ex FSO GRIFFO:

Do you have any more details of the above incident?

My own incident in a Cessna 310 at Mascot was with a jammed towing cable, with an aerodynamic 'bomb' trailing behind the aircraft.

Regards

Tmb

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Sorry Mr 'T',

Was far too long ago - about the time I was commencing I think - early 60's or thereabouts. (?)

CSIRO had two 310's doing the silver iodide cloud seeding bit, and one got into a little strife re the u/c. I think they may have been Mascot based on contract at the time.
Would it have been 'Adastra' who ran them perhaps??

Someone may remember......I'm getting to the stage where I wonder 'What I had for brekkie'...or even IF I had it!!

Cheers:ok:

[Zhaadum]

Bitumen for sure.

[Lodown]

Griffo, it may be the same aircraft, but I think I remember being impressed reading in the crash comic about an Aztec that did the same thing. (I'm probably wrong again.)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The Aztec was in Fiji. The pilot stopped the engines and tried to set the props to horizontal with the starter. Didn't get the job done. The props (feathered) dug in - flipped the aeroplane on its back - crushed the cabin - killed the pilot.

Dr :8

[aseanaero]

If you happen to be flying a Fairy Gannet

Exaviator , the guy in the office next door to me is an ex Indo Navy pilot and he said the handling qualities of the Gannet is like someone throwing a brick :)

[Joker 10]

USAF Flight manual very clear, if available for gear uo landings always use sealed surface to minimise damage to airframe and protect crew. Lay foam path if firefighting appliances are equipped.

[Tmbstory]

Ex FSO GRIFFO:

My C310 incident was in November 1965 at Mascot. There was a story around in those days about a Twin landing with the both propellers featherd and horizontal. For various reasons I did not consider doing this action.

In 1966 an organization in south west New South Wales, had a CSIRO contract with two Cessna 310's on Cloud Seeding and I was part of this team.

Before 1966 I think the Cloud Seeding contract also used two Cessna 310 aircraft, from my memory I think that they were based in Tamworth, although it may have been 'Adastra' in Sydney.

Tmb

[Clearedtoreenter]

The only one I've seen was a Duchess on gravel - no damage at all hardly (except a couple of bent props, two shockloaded engines and some relatively minor scrapes underneath.) A couple of LAMES came along, jacked it up, dropped the gear and it almost looked like it could have flown away. Same aircraft is still a cornerstone of muti-engie training at BK - some probably know it well.;)

As for heroics trying to stop props hoizontally and the like - don't bother unless you really care about the insurance company. The owner got two new props and engine overhauls out of the above.