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View Full Version : Creation of a fund for those who cannot afford PPL


baz76
25th May 2009, 20:01
Guys,

If this sounds stupid, please forgive me.

Many of us on the forums are frustrated because we cannot fulfill our dream of flying, I am sure most of us cannot afford it, I am one of those ofcourse.

I was thinking along the lines of creating some sort of fund for those who want to gain their PPL. For example, if there are 10 persons in the group, all need to pool in a set amount per month for a fixed number of months. Each month, there will be a draw and whoever is selected should be sponsored to complete his/her training and this will continue till everyone has completed the PPL training.

The legalities can be discussed but its just an idea. We can think about the modalities around it as well but I think this can work.

Please let me have your comments.

Let me know what you think.

Henry Hallam
25th May 2009, 20:06
GAPAN scholarship

Genghis the Engineer
25th May 2009, 20:10
I hate to sound harsh, but if you can't afford to get a PPL, then you can't afford to subsequently fly enough to be safe. Flown in the classical flying club manner anyhow.

There are ways to fly relatively cheaply, such as...

- Do a microlight PPL

- Join a gliding club and fly as much and as often as you can afford

- Buy a cheap type-approved microlight in a group, and then pay an instructor as you go along.

- Save up until you can afford it, then do a package somewhere like South Africa or (once the dollar and pound have got back to where they used to be) the USA. (Hint, whilst less flexible, the South African and American PPLs are much cheaper than the UK/JAA version and can still be used here). Following that, buy a share in something with a PFA/LAA permit.


All of these give you a reasonable opportunity to fly fairly cheaply - clever finance schemes to do a JAR-PPL (the standard, and unfortunately expensive, flying club product) won't actually change that it's very expensive.

Also, work out how you're going to afford to keep flying long term - otherwise it was a bit of a waste of time.

G

Monocock
25th May 2009, 20:14
all need to pool in a set amount per month for a fixed number of months

Forgive my ignorance but what does this achieve above and beyond an individual saving up themselves to do their licence without the "lottery" fun factor of the "group"?

ak7274
25th May 2009, 20:26
Sorry if this sounds harsh too..................I worked hard on a limited income.......My wife and I brought up 3 children without asking if we could get sponsorship for them........or indeed creating a lottery with friends to see which of us could have children first. As soon as our young fled the nest we sailed offshore on our own Yacht (smallish & cheapish)..........10 years later we sold the boat and I learnt to fly (Small & cheap) Bought a plane and you guessed it (Small & cheap)
Why should anyone join a sceme that gives them a 1 in however many chances of learning to fly? Or even pander to the posters who are obviously fishing for cash to learn to Fly
Am I resentful of the wealthy?.........absolutely not..a bit envious of some the Planes they fly perhaps..............Try going and washing A/C at clubs and working for some hours........Sadly that seems to happen less amd less and the young seem to want more and more for doing less and less.
Am I a grumpy old git?........you betcha

BabyBear
25th May 2009, 22:21
this will continue till everyone has completed the PPL training.


Problem here baz (even if the concept was good, which it ain't) is getting the first, second, third sponsored to keep paying for another 9, 8 etc to complete it, as well as trying to finance their own flying.

Simply not workable!

J.A.F.O.
25th May 2009, 22:55
Guys,

I've got an idea - Monkey Tennis - we teach monkeys to play tennis and then...

CPilotUK
26th May 2009, 00:54
Baz,

Judging by your previous posts, it is clear that you loathe hard work and determination, a prerequisite to become a qualified pilot. With that attitude my friend, the odds are hugely against you.

If you really want to 'fulfull your dream of flying' then sacrifice the latest gadgets, the annual holidays, sell the new car, the 42' LCD flat screen telly and the wife if possible, you get the picture. If you couldn't afford any of these in the first place - even though you said you work in IT - then I can't see you being able to afford a PPL.

SNS3Guppy
26th May 2009, 02:18
The hardest part of learning to fly is paying for it. I've often seen a clear distinction among students who have a trust fund or other source of money, vs. those who've had to earn their way into the cockpit. The difference shows in the dedication and in the determination to not only complete flight training, but to continue beyond that point.

Paying for one's training is a difficult thing to be sure, and with rising costs, it gets no easier with time. One might say that the cost and the effort involved is somewhat of a great discriminator, or an equalizer...it tends to divide those who are determined and dedicated, from those who are not.

I spent many long years working under very demanding, difficult conditions, working multiple jobs, and often cycling long distances to work in freezing hangars to earn the few hours of flying I got. It was a very long road, and a very demanding one, and the subsequent career which has followed has been no less demanding. I've run into many who say it's not worth it, who drop out and fall away...and this too has served as a great discriminator or equalizer, shearing the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

While coming up with ample money for everyone would be a wonderful thing on the surface, flying has never been anything less than requiring your all. Cheapen that by giving it away, and then what have you left but many who will fail to take it seriously, who will lower the standards of safety and dedication, and who will cheapen the art, the sport, and the industry by a like amount.

No, flying requires your dedication, and depending on how far you're willing to reach...it is attainable. The question is whether the cost is more than you're willing to bear.

ECAM_Actions
26th May 2009, 02:34
I agree with the comments posted above.

If you can afford to put into a fund on the terms you described, you can afford to save for your own training. It will take longer to save, but if you want it, you'll go for it.

I suggest taking a pair of scissors to that evil creation they call a credit card, and learn what earning money is really about.

After that, good luck with your endeavour! :cool:

ECAM Actions.

englishal
26th May 2009, 06:31
I think it is a stupid idea myself.

Malcom
26th May 2009, 07:13
If you want it bad enough, you'll find a way!
Charity is for the needy.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
26th May 2009, 07:18
Go to New Zealand, where it's 30 quid an hour, dual... But, as has already been mentioned, you would still have to pay to upkeep your licence. Private flying in the UK is largely for well-off people.

vanHorck
26th May 2009, 07:31
Having to work hard and be creative to obtain the PPL will enhance the value of it.

For those who have worked hard and were creative but still failed, how on earth would we decide on the criteria.

I think it is an honorable thought but bypasses human psychology

jonkil
26th May 2009, 08:32
NPPL(m) and cheap flexwing or 3 axis. But if you have difficulty getting the price of a lesson every fortnight then maybe flying is out of your reach. Working 12 hours a day helps and with proper dedication and work ethic coupled to an attitude of getting there at all costs, then anything is possible. Until you sort out that side of your life then you will possibly look at everyone else with an attitude of resentment and ask yourself why you cant have it and attempt to get a lazy way out, this generally ends in failure.

Jon

Rodent1982
26th May 2009, 09:08
If you can't afford to fly, don't! Most of us humans have to live with the fact that there are some things out of our reach.

If you can afford to throw money into the pot, then you can afford to save that money instead. Learning to fly needn't be a 3 week course over in USA, or SA. I've personally been working on mine for over a year, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Where is the fun in flying constantly for 3 weeks, then coming back to reality and flying on a budget... stretch out the training, you'll learn a hell of a lot more that way, allowing time to digest your previous lesson. Some people have been working on their PPLs for quite literally decades, and I'm sure they wouldn't be complaining about it either.

Part time jobs, freelancing, or whatever, money doesn't fall from trees!

PS. Absolutely daft idea for the reasons BabyBear states. Once number 1 completes what's his / her incentive to keep throwing money in the fund. But possibly more importantly, you're not saving money, just trying to get there quicker. Will cost just as much either way.

Donalk
26th May 2009, 09:27
Baz - It's an ill conceived idea which strikes me as being unworkable in practise. Rather than trying to re-invent the wheel you should devote your time and mental energy to the task of funding your training by conventional means. Thousands of pilots before you have trod this path and it has proved successful. Perhaps you should follow their example.

hatzflyer
26th May 2009, 09:35
Ive got an expensive plane that could do with a few thou spent on it. :{
Anyone interested in helping me pay? I'll put your name in a hat for a free flight.

hightower1986
26th May 2009, 09:48
Heathrow Director any chance you can let me know where and what aircraft you can hire for £30 an hour with instructor in New Zealand? You may be about 2 months late in telling me this!:ugh: :}

PompeyPaul
26th May 2009, 12:13
1. What happens when person 1 get's his PPL ? Does he still have to pay into the fund ? What happens when, they invariably, stop paying in ?
2. If there are 4 in a group, are you happy to subsidise 3 other people's training, waiting maybe 3 years before you start yourself ?
3. What happens when some people go AWOL ?
4. Surely putting my money into a high interest savings account and then paying for myself is a better idea ?

modelman
26th May 2009, 12:27
If this sounds stupid, please forgive me.


Forgiven..........

Crash one
26th May 2009, 12:43
Do like I did. Knock yr pan in working for a living with as much overtime as you can get till you retire. Now start flying!!

enq
26th May 2009, 12:58
I think its an excellent idea, which could be extended to ensure that many previously expensive past times are available to anyone that wants them, without the irksome need for effort or sacrifice.

With that in mind I have a little scheme for those who have always wanted to draw large, risk free rewards from hedge fund investing.

Anyone interested should send me their details + £850 to cover admin costs + details of any friends, colleagues or family that may be sucke.. er persuaded to join in this sort of scheme.

You just need confidence.

Regards all, enq.

The Heff
26th May 2009, 15:20
Try going and washing A/C at clubs and working for some hours

Do clubs still do this anymore? Does anyone know of any civilian flying school/clubs that offer flying instruction for labour? I know its the case with the service and certain employer flying clubs, but I've never heard of a flying school offering instruction for anything else but a payment of money, and a fairly large one at that. :\

mad_jock
26th May 2009, 15:31
You could call your scheme "pilots empowering pilots"

Have a search for pyramid selling schemes and see if you think you will be able to get an airport pass after you completed your idea.

pa28r driver
26th May 2009, 16:14
ive got a cheap plane that deffo needs cash spending on it.if you all send me a grand apiece i will send you a pic of aforementioned plane.as an afterthought i took three years to get my ppl starting in new zealand continuing at dundee and finishing in norwich.i worked bloody hard for my lessons and felt really really chuffed when i got me greasy mits on the piece of card from holborn
safe landings etc

airborne_artist
26th May 2009, 16:36
Greeting !!!

This is to bring to your notice that a bank draft of $750,000.00 United States Dollars, have been issued in your favour by World Bank from a random computer e-mail search. I Dr. Kathleen Douglas worker in the World Bank have deposited the draft with (UPS COURIER EXPRESS,NIGERIA) after many e-mails to you which you have not replied. I have travelled out of Nigeria now,I do hope that you will receive this mail and act fast.

What you have to do now is to contact the UPS COURIER EXPRESS NIGERIA as soon as possible to know when they will deliver the package to you because of the expiring date. For your information the delivering Charge,Insurance premium and Clearance Certificate Fee of the Cheque showing that it is not a Drug Money or meant to sponsor Terrorist attack in your Country has been paid.

You are advice to contact the courier services immediately Again, we would have paid for the Security Keeping fee but they refused because they said they don't know when you will contact them and in case of demurrage. The only money you will send to the UPS COURIER EXPRESS NIGERIA to deliver your Draft direct to your postal Address in your country is $180 USDollars only being Security Keeping Fee, You have to contact the UPS COURIER EXPRESS NIGERIA now for the delivery of your Bank Draft valued at $750,000.00 United States Dollars with this information, All you have to do is contact or furnish UPS COURIER EXPRESS NIGERIA with your identification for verification of the details there in their office. Send them the following details with their email there as emailing me back will be impossible.

YOUR FULL NAMES: .............
RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS :........
TELEPHONE NUMBER :...........
CELLPHONE NUMBER : ...........
STATE : ......................
COUNTRY : ....................

CONTACT DETAILS

UPS COURIER SERVICE
Contact (DISPATCH DIRECTOR)
Contact Person: Mr. johnson Adewale
Telephone:+(234) 807-056-4708
Email : [email protected]

Contact Mr.johnson Adewale there and know when the Draft will get to your address,Let me repeat again,try to contact them as soon as you receive this mail to avoid any further delay and remember to pay them their Security Keeping fee of $180 US Dollars Only for their immediate action.You should also let me know through email as soon as you receive your Draft.

Yours Faithfully,
Dr. Kathleen Douglas

chrisbl
26th May 2009, 18:54
Seems like Baz has got the message.

Complete timewaster.

Rodent1982
26th May 2009, 21:19
airborn_artist thank you, you had me in stitches! :D:ok:

Cron
26th May 2009, 21:44
Baz, if PPL is financially out of reach then put it on hold until it can be in reach.

In the meantime you will of course want to fly and there has never been a better time to gain hundreds of hours of airtime in a single seat aircraft that has variable geometry, VNE ~ 60kts, needs no hanger, airfield, licence or medical and can be converted from power variant to glider variant in 15 minutes.

We are talking Hang Glider (NOT PARAGLIDER). Hang Gliders are difficult to land and takeoff - they teach you a lot about flying and yourself. Bend them and they are expensive to repair (just like a light a/c). So fly well. You want IMC? - easly achieved on a thermic day - but also illegal. You want to practise touch and goes for free all day? Want to practise X-wind landings all day for free?

Hang Gliding is now dying owing to overcrowding of sites with PGs. Thus you can pick up a very decent modern machine probably with harness and instruments for less then £500.00.

Modern HGs are not the old weird things you see on TV docs - they are carbon fibre, aluminium, dacron, stainless steel and immensly strong, safe and light.

You can now, entirely down to your determination, fly 30 - 60 miles XC most summer UK weekends, map read and talk to ATC or AIS. (Yes you will need a radio licence but you will need one for your PPL. Radio load is a big distraction on PPL training - get in their early)

You'll need a short padded ladder on top of you car and a few straps - and that's it.

Cron. (Solar Wings Scandal with APS! Google it)

chrisbl
26th May 2009, 21:49
Baz try this one:

Hi
I'm Major Gen Jorge Arroyo of the Ecuadorian Armed Forces i was drafted to Goma in Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo,DRC as the 2 i/c, field commander
United Nation peacekeeping force in Congo, Africa.

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3681630.stm (mhtml:{EDB1397C-E064-427B-BACD-45089F6613D4}mid://00000114/!x-usc:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3681630.stm))

During one of our raids on rebels locations we discovered and seized the sum of 9.4 million USD along side some unrefined gold.
I need your help to this once in a life time opportunity,as a serving soldier I am limited to things I could do.
You will share 20% of this money if you could assist us to secure this funds. Be assured there is no danger to you handling this deal. I will disclose
further information on receiving your willingness to assist.Your earliest response will be appreciated.
Thank you
Jorge Arroyo

Jofm5
27th May 2009, 03:31
Baz,

I have watched this thread from the start with some sceptisim for your comment as I believe it may be just to be to prevoke a reaction...

I will take your comment in good faith and give my input as not someone with a PPL but someone who is hopefully about to commence one.

If you think your finances preclude you from doing this solo then grouping up will not help - the whole lottery thing is as has been pointed out only going to help a few out of any that join and people will soon see this and leave - no matter what contract you have you will not be able to enforce the contract by commencing court action to recover money which is not there as funds will not be available which is why it would have commenced in the first place.

To not have your PPL is not to exclude you from the aviation community - do not be discouraged by the fact you cant afford to learn to fly just yet. Participating in any way you can will only further your knowledge until you can get to a position you can afford to learn and pass the exams. Getting a seat and observing is all good education, being able to ask questions and learn before approaching the PPL should stand you in good stead and in the meantime you will be having fun.

Whilst I agree in a preivious posters comment in that to sustain a PPL requires a degree of monetry fluidity - I also see alot on here whereby people are glad of the company when they have alot of flying to do - if you can get there to join them they will be glad of the company and all is good, whilst your not flying your able to learn and observe - whilst no monies may be asked for, contributions such as the cup of tea as thanks would be polite etc.

I myself wish to undertake a PPL course later this year and before doing so wished to at least experience a SEP flight to see if the whole solo engine plane (SEP) thing is something that wont scare me senseless (even tho I am pretty much adament I will be doing it). Someone on here has offered and I have graciously accepted to share a flight to give me that experience before I commit myself to the cost of the ppl - If I was going to do this through a flight school it would be sanitised and would cost alot more.

I would say from someone on the brink of signing on the dotted line to start the PPL trail - try finding the money to at least share a flight beforehand to make sure it is something your really wanting to do. I want to do it but have reservations as have never been in such a small plane. I have been told from people that have done it before a light plane is not everyones cup of tea - if you can get that flight and you love it - then I am sure you will be able to figure out what sacrifices you may need to make to fulfill your dream.

Hope you get there one day....

jonkil
27th May 2009, 09:00
Baz,
after re-reading the thread and thinking about the whole issue, maybe the following would assist you in your endeavours;

Research the credit union movement in your area. Credit unions will grant loans to suitable people who can demonstrate that they have the ability to save regularly. If you could open an account and put a sum in, lets say £500, and then demonstrate a pattern of WEEKLY saving for the next 6 mts of say £30 per week..... no missing a week, must be lodged each week. At the end of the 6 months you should be able to borrow a bit over £3500, and your re-payments would be less than the £30 per week you were saving anyway.
Credit unions will loan up to 3x times your savings so the initial £500+26 weeks @ £30 p/w= £1280, therefore £1280x3= £3840.
You can also top up this loan after a time has elapsed, so if you find after 1 year that you need say £1000 to keep the PPL going you should be able to get it, that is of course if you make all the repayments on schedule and have missed none.

I dont know if this helps, but it may be a way to finance your PPL if you cannot allocate finances towards it right away. It is a loan you will be taking out, but it will discipline you in your endeavours, and another thing, dont go out and try and fly 5 hours a week, take your time, lodge the money into a dedicated "flying" account and use it for nothing else, this will have 2 benefits, firstly it allows you time to do the PPL and not to use all the money in a short time frame and have no flying for months while you re-pay the loan, and secondly if you take 18 mts or so to do the PPL and need a bit of extra cash after a year then you should have access to it.
Also save your dough and forget about things like Ray-bans, Bose headsets, stopwatches, flight gizmos, GPS, and all the assorted crap that students seem to want... YOU DONT NEED IT..... yet.

Regards,
Jon

Crash one
27th May 2009, 09:49
What should happen here is that the government should finance a "Lifestyle Fund" . We would then have access to as much cash as required to fund whatever lifestyle we choose. PPL, a/c purchase, hangarage, fuel yacht, houses etc, for as long as we require.
Payments into such fund by "borrowers" would be optional.
Once participants reach the age of 99 they will be presented with the bill.
If this bill cannot be settled within 5yrs the "offender" shall be shot.

dont overfil
27th May 2009, 09:56
Crash One
What a wonderful idea. I know we have people in the government who would seriously consider that.
DO

kevmusic
27th May 2009, 10:25
Baz, could I ask how old you are? Because I was 28 when I fell in love with flying and the whole 'must-do-PPL' thing began with me. I've had various attempts at completing it over the years but it wasn't until comparitively recently that I was able to get my finances really straight and save properly. I'm now within an ace of completing and I'm now 55! I still have plenty of time left to enjoy it and so will you - determination and stickability will do the rest for you. :ok:

Munnyspinner
27th May 2009, 10:28
Baz,

I think you've got it.....well, almost.

If you can find a group of like minded bods save up and buy and aeroplane. (just a cheap one) and then select one of your number to get a PPL followed by a FI Rating. The aircraft will be a 'club' aircraft and the new FI can give instruction to club members without recompense. You will all be equal members of the club and have an equal share in the aircraft. the cost of the FI rating needs to be funded by cash but can be 'secured' against that members share. i.e. he pays for it when the aircraft is sold.


If you can find a friendly FI who needs hours then you may be able to do a discounted rate at this time but the principle saving will be in the hire charges levied by a commercial FTO. This route would allow you to get some debt for the purchase of the A/c which will depreciate fairly slowly. In addition to instruction you will pay direct costs. Fuel, maintenance, insurance, hangar/parking, landing, CofA, Finance, depreciation etc. etc.

It will work out cheaper and you will end up wiser. But this will involve risk and a committment - are you sure you've got what it takes? The lottery idea was pants!

larzabell
27th May 2009, 17:51
hold on...this scheme is fatally flawed.

( or I don't understand it at all)

if everyone chips in an equal amount until everyone has their PPL, wouldn't everyone of paid the equivelant of one PPL? and therefore could have just paid for their own.


:confused:

Munnyspinner
27th May 2009, 18:09
Yes,

An unavoidable conclusion. The answer is the same which ever way you look at it - but, you can work to make it as cheap as possible. Perhaps the idea was to get some dim but rich guys pay up but drop out?

scooter boy
27th May 2009, 20:17
Communism has failed universally. Lottery based (communist) flying - sounds like the Russian airforce!:}

You just have to pay for it (through the nose like the rest of us), or find another hobby.

Pointless learning to do something you can't afford to sustain.

SB

The Heff
27th May 2009, 22:02
After reading the previous post I couldn't help but think about the success (or lack of it) of communism as a political ideology. Whilst we could say that communism has failed in Russia with the result of the USSR breaking finally breaking up and adopting a democratic government, was that because communism is flawed in principle or practice or was it because the western world didn't give it a fair chance?

It seems to me that the Russians were poor prior to the bolshevik revolution and poor after the soviet break-up. Communism possibly even brought relief to the common people who were starving, embroiled in an unpopular war with Germany and generally felt down-trodden by their 'betters'. The septics have never been particular fond of the 'red menace' and have done everything they can to topple communist governments by means fair and foul. Would the Korean or the Vietnamese War ever have taken place if not for the American hatred of communism? Certainly would the CIA have been giving its attentions to Cuba if not for Fidel Castro's political inclinations? Lastly would the USA have poured funding into the building and training of the Israeli Air Force if they didn't believe the Soviets would step in otherwise?

China, Cuba, North Korea and Vietnam are all proving to be surviving as communist countries, so maybe the ideology hasn't universally failed, maybe it was just beaten in Russia. Of course I could also be talking absolute bollocks. :}

Munnyspinner
27th May 2009, 22:06
Thanks Heff, I think you should have the last word on this!

Oops!

TrafficPilot
28th May 2009, 16:20
I'm not "well off" as another poster suggested most PPLs are. I've got into debt in the past with this flying lark but there's nothing I'd rather do than fly aeroplanes. It was worth all the hassle of scrimping and saving to achieve my goal.

If you love flying you'll find a way to fund it yourself.