Where to hour build in Florida?

[madmal]

Hi Guys,

I am a PPL hour building to start CPL. Need approx 70 hours P1. Economically impractical to try and do it in Ireland / UK - Best advice I have is to jump on over to Florida for a few weeks and get some kind of all in block package.......Is this best option? Reading pprune however has led me to believe that there are a large number of schools that you will either be sitting around waiting for a plane or that give preference to other integrated students. Can anyone give me a recommendation of a school in Florida that they have attended for the same purpose and have found to be economically viable, provide good equipment, etc etc? :confused:

[Spit-Fire]

Don't, go to California, weather more predictable, more interesting terrain which will give you lots of benefit for a future flying career. Typical day for hour builder was taking off in the morning, flying to Las Vegas, having lunch and setting off again to San Francisco and back to LA - nice 8 hr day. Found Florida's weather very unreliable as equally were the flight centres who i tried to arrange aircraft hire from (myself and other peoples opinions but that's not to say there aren't good ones around but haven't heard of any thus far). Look up Fly Corona in LA region, very good, organised and cheap as chips. Own maintenance centre on site and lots of very helpful people. Ask to speak to Carlos, Elian or Colin. Good luck

[skyhighbird]

I am a PPL hour building to start CPL. Need approx 70 hours P1. Economically impractical to try and do it in Ireland / UK

Really?

How much do you think you will really be saving once you add everything together? Then ask yourself whether flying around with no air traffic and buggerall weather will make you a better pilot than you are now?

I have read a lot about flying in the states and if you want a really good school with a/c that won't go tech, and a schedule that means you aren't sitting around, then you will have to pay for it. Which means the cost comparison would make the states probably more expensive.

[youngskywalker]

Another misconception about flying in the USA, plenty weather over there, infact I've encountered far more severe weather flying in the States than anywhere else in Europe and believe me I've been around. Plenty busy ATC too if thats what you really want.

No doubt this will generate another ten pages from the usual pprune armchair experts who have probably never flown an aircraft let alone been to the States.

Ladies, Gentlemen, I leave you to continue....

[Spit-Fire]

Never thought i'd have to join the masses on here by saying what 'total and absolute rubbish' you have just written. I forgot as a PPL holder with no IR you can fly with mimimum vis and its safe enough to fly into CB's.

LA surrounded by mountains (mountain effect) and as with most of the west coast the weather does fluctuate (only on the coast) according to the time of day due to cold jet streams.

I recently finished CPL training at SFC and did what you are doing right now for a long time last year (trying to plan a successful trip in the USA). Through many hours of talking to these companies with very little confidence I did finally get a good feeling from my previous mentioned company and the experience was out of this world.

I can reluctantly agree with one fact pointed out by your other reply and that is, by the time you have paid for everything you won't have saved much money, however, what you will have saved is a great deal of time waiting for the weather to be good enough to get up in (Irish/UK weather) and with that taken into account you will end up saving money!

Please PM me if you would like to talk and i can also share pictures of aircraft and views if needed.

[skyhighbird]

plenty weather over there, infact I've encountered far more severe weather flying in the States than anywhere else in Europe

During hours building?

The T/O x-wind limit is circa 12kts for a Cessna 152 - so I'm not quite sure what your point is and what you are comparing.

Its quite simple. People go to states because of the allegedly cheaper cost of hour building. This comes from lower fuel cost, charges blah blah.

If you go an airfield with moderate traffic (hence being situated in an airspace with moderate traffic) then obviously the airfield charges will cost more compared to some dirt strip in the middle of Nevada. So straight away you have lost the whole cost difference that you originally went for.

Also, the other attraction of the states is the weather where you can pretty much guarantee blue skies for weeks on end unlike in England. You could easily build a 100 hours in 5 weeks (if you flew 4 hours per day). You won't book your ticket for Florida in the middle of hurricane season would you?

So in summary the attraction is weather and costs therefore weather will be nil, and air traffic will be next to nothing.

[Spit-Fire]

The last post wasn't for your comments youngskywalker. Indeed the USA is huge and very varied in terrain which is why there would be all kinds of differing weather. The only real challenges on the western board are the Santa Ana winds which may blow for a few days from october around LA and in land through the LA basin hence the fires they always have over there. You can always look the weather up for the region and see for yourself)

That's me done before hell lets rip on here

[potkettleblack]

I really get sick and tired of the misconceptions posted on here. If you haven't been and done it then wind your neck in. There is absolutely no point in posting garbage about "my mate told me that....". Or I was having a cup of coffee waiting for the weather to clear at school the other day and someone told me that....Bollocks.

If you want to fly around in uncontrolled airspace in the US and not talk to anyone then go ahead and do it. Similarly if you want to do it in the UK then there is a large country called Scotland just to the north (check your charts) where you can fly for hours never talking to anyone.

On the other hand if you want to do some constructive hour building in the US then......Get flight following and go to some challenging places. Use wx-brief for a FREE weather briefing. Land at most airfields for FREE (only the bigger ones charge landing fees or require handling and are easily avoided if cost is an issue). Use Airnav to check out cheap fuel prices and plan your flights accordingly. Taxi up to a self service fuel pump and swipe your credit card and away you go.

Or on the other hand you can stay in blighty looking up at the clouds wondering when you will go flying. Stay in the circuit to bash some landings and you get the privilege of paying for each one and maybe even an approach fee on top depending on where you fly from. Even better if there is commercial traffic on finals then you can go around in circles until they land. And don't forget that the FTO will want their aircraft back after a few hours as well so don't head off to far.

For me it was a no brainer. Got my IMC rating before I went to the US and did full plogs for each and every flight. Bashed out VOR tracking and position fixing till the cows came home and pushed myself to trim trim trim. The flight tolerances for the CPL and IR should be your guide. Don't accept anything less and push yourself rather than just burning holes in the sky. Sit down with an instructor before you head off and get some tips so that you come back ready to jump into the CPL and IR.

PS: Florida got very boring for me. California won hands down. Big mountains, nice trips to Santa Barbara, San Diego, Palm Springs, traversing the LA basin was a highlight, Vegas was great to, the bits of the Grand Canyon you can legally fly over were superb and Sedona in Arizona stood out as a fun approach. Enjoy.

[Spit-Fire]

Thanks for sharing your view which is a total mirror of my own.

[madmal]

Folks, my whole point of this thread was as potkettleblack put it "If you haven't been and done it then wind your neck in" - I am seeking the advice of those of you that have done it, had both level of experience may it be bad or good.
The general tone is that Florida is not a good option whether it be cheaper or otherwise. To build 70 hours in Ireland is going to cost me the order of €13K and that is WX dependent. Could take me year to do that alone and thats being optimistic to say the least. My best option is to take a few weeks off, "Go Somewhere" that will prove to be a bit cheaper (doesn't necessarily have to be massively cheaper, just cheaper, HAS GOOD WX EVERY DAY) and provides me with a good service for my Euro and an oportunity to hone the skill that got me the licence in the 1st place.

Thanks Guys

[youngskywalker]

There is a whole lot more to flying in the usa than just Florida, Ive flown over most of the States, West, south west, mid west, east, south east etc etc. You can find any type of weather that you want. True, if you want to bore holes in blue skies then you can easily achieve that, similarly if you want to explore some more and deal with very high density airflields near the mountains and speak to some of the busiest ATC centres in the world then thats also fair game. Just don't judge the USA and FAA Pilots by the standards of a few Brits looking for a quick 100 hours in Florida and an evening in the George and Dragon telling people how good Britain is!

I went to the States looking for variety not really for the cheap flying. I did all my training and hour building in Scotland. USA wins hands down for so many reasons!

[Parson]

When you add up the total cost of US, may not be much cheaper than UK. You could also strike a deal with aclub here for 70 hrs and get a cheaper rate. You're much better off doing your hour building in the same environment as where you will do your CPL - I did and it makes a heck of a difference. You get to know landmarks, airspace, and the local wx etc. Alot of the CPL is nav routes and if you practice these in your hour building. May save you some hours on your CPL course.

Either way, make sure you bet a brief from your intended school on what to prcatice and make the most of your 70 hrs - don't just go boring holes in the sky.

[skyhighbird]

To build 70 hours in Ireland is going to cost me the order of €13K

SFC do 105hrs (6 hours dual) for around £8K.

Granted it doesn't help much, weather, location etc. I'm just surprised why Ireland is so expensive.

[Mickey Kaye]

Rubbish It's certainly possible to fly 100 hours in the UK in one month. In the past i've know a few instructors that have done it on a regular basis.

Even in the current my flying school not that busy environment the full time instructors are getting 40-60 hours logged a month and the only reason that it is so low is due to lack of punters not crap weather.

However you must make sure that when you have a good flying day you really have to get the hours flown to make up for the days when the weather is poor. I also wouldn’t dismiss flying at night either (which I wouldn’t say is a bad idea anyway).

Having flown in both florida, LA and the UK I would agree it is easier to log the hours in other parts of the world but a 100 hours in a month in the UK is certainly achievable.

[Mickey Kaye]

I’m also not so sure if going to the states is a big money saver anymore.


Locally to me you can hire 2 seat cessna’s for 78 quid wet and if you couple this in with filling her up in the channel islands and/or fuel drawback by flying to the continent this rate could drop even further.

[youngskywalker]

I think it's probably better value if you make a 'holiday' out of it too. Instead of just renting an aircraft and boring holes in the same bit of blue sky why not rent an aircraft for two weeks, take a friend or the good lady/man and go on a tour, take in as many different airports and experiences at the same time. So much more to do in the USA than just flying from Kissimmee to Lake Okechobee and back every day.

[A and C]

A lot of the keenly priced deals in the USA are predicated on using the FBO's fuel. uplifting fuel at other places increses the price.

The other problem with the idea of taking a the GF along is that she will see the low budget aircraft for what it is , an under maintaned flying death trap.

For those who say hourbuilding in the UK can't be done please take a look at this web site from someone who has actualy done it.

index (http://www.zerotoatpl.com)

[axl76fg]

go to florida-flyers school!!

Florida Flyers European US Flightschool, Inc. - Übersicht (http://www.florida-aviators.com/)

i just came back, trusth me,it's ok...!

contact :
Rainer Hueckels Loeffeck (CEO)

Phone +1 (904) 824-8434 Ext. 11
Fax +1 (904) 824-8458
Cell +1 (904) 826-5199

eMail [email protected]

not big school,not interested just about your money but even your goals!
they have good prices and not crowdy.
they have warrior p28, cessna 152, 172, 172rg,sp and garmin 1000 if you wish....i flow in pa28 and in 20 days i did 70 hours and i spent some days sightseeing in Miami, st.Augustine ,key west...so..if you wish you could also do more hours even during night....i did sometimes something like 10 hours per day around florida enjoying !!
weather in Florida much better than CA and is flat area, easy to fly even during night..but better from october till june.
if you need some info let me know.

[Dane-Ger]

Being the owner of the website linked to in A and C's post above, I can safely say that it CAN be done quickly and cheaply in the UK.

I flew a C-152 that looked like new for £78 an hour, and as has been mentioned above, If you live close to the south coast you can knock another £15 an hour of that if you chose to fill up with duty free fuel and head off to France every day.

The lease I had, I only paid for flying time, so that means any taxiing was in my logbook but at no extra cost.

I also managed 80 hours in 5 weeks in April / May up here in Scotland (without using my IMC rating).

I still reckon it would not have been any cheaper for me to do it in the USA and the real bonus is that my CPL instructor agrees that my hour building here in various winds and weathers has really helped my flying and is making the CPL course much easier for me. have a look at Home Page - BRK (http://www.bigredkite.com) where I leased my 152 from, they offer a great friendly service.

Regards D-G

[Shunter]

The T/O x-wind limit is circa 12kts for a Cessna 152I'd just like to point out that the 152 does not have a crosswind limit. Clubs may have a limit as part of their rental terms, but the aeroplane does not. It's a "maximum demonstrated crosswind", and is in no way limiting unless the POH says so, which it doesn't.

[adam75]

hi, I m now in Florida at st augustine. I get a pa28 warrior for 96 dollars/h the school is really nice and the people are great starting from the ower of the school
tha name of the school is FLORIDA FLYERS but the school is from germany.

bya

[A and C]

Lets have the whole truth, is that $96/ hour Tacho or hobbs? or is it take off to landing?

How much is the hotel ?

What did the airline ticket & transfers cost?

Did you have to rent a car?

Only then can we see what the true cost per hour is.

It is very little use hoursbuilders posting opinion, what we want to see is hard fact, only then will the true costs be clear.

I have the distinct feeling that a lot of the guys who post about hour building on this forum are deluding themselfs into thinking that they have got a very good deal, when in fact if they looked at the numbers in the cold light of day they would find that they would have spent the same or less money flying in Europe.................... the problem is that they are not going to admit the fact on these pages.

[SweetChariotXV]

Florida Flyers European US Flightschool, Inc. - Our Fleet/Rates (http://www.florida-flyers.com/our-fleet-rates.php)

ba.com (£399 rtn to orlando on random dates 31/05 rtn 11/06)

Cheap Car Hire - Find and book great car hire rates on Expedia.co.uk (http://www.expedia.co.uk/cars/cars.aspx)

Best Western Oceanfront – a fine Jacksonville Beach hotel. (http://www.bestwesternjacksonvillebeach.com/)

I'm not about to start calculating the costs... but 3 mins on google, a bit of research, and plenty of pointless questions can be avoided being asked on here.

Hourbuilding US v Hourbuilding UK / EU - pro's and cons to both in my opinion. Do your research and do whats personally best for you.

[A and C]

OK then, the idiots guide to hour building costs in the USA:-

£ 399 airline ticket +£20 to get to LHR

4 weeks cheap motel $39/night = $1932

$ weeks car hire £348

Aircraft (C152) $74 hour 80 hours = $5920

Using todays £/$ rate we get a total of £5713 or an hourly cost of £71.40

As this is just an internet traul I am sure that other incidentals would bump up the pricebut I suspect by no more than £1-2 / hour.


Dane-ger has actualy done the hour building in the UK and Quotes an ALL INCLUSIVE price of £78/hour in an aircraft he discribes as "looking like new". That price drops to £63/hour if you pop across to France.

As you can see the numbers are very close but my guess is that if things go wrong you would stand a much better chance of getting your money back this side of the Atlantic.

[Mordacai]

Hi just my two cents,

Whatever you do, wherever you go just please make sure you make the most of it - i.e. structure your hour building with some challenging routes, different classes or airspace. Don't do the classic lake Okeechobee orbit...yes it takes two hours but you learn nothing!

Have fun

PS Did you know that some schools are offering all inclusive packages at the moment, which includes housing, car etc?

[adam75]

for A and C


I just said how much was the airplane.. i want to help.. and on my opinion flying in Florida is a nice experience. that s all..I also needed to come here because it s something that y have to try.. al lot of traffic and all the planes are treated as one. no matter if y are a 747 or a pa28..

but What I really don t understand is why so many english people think they are so special and that the rest of the world is ****hole.. really it starts pissing me off :ugh::ugh::ugh:

by the way good luck for for your time building. I got tired of writing something about the thread and facing these anger people just spiting **** on everything..

bye

[youngskywalker]

I think the term is British people not just English, subtle difference!

To be honest I've seen as many "death trap aircraft" if thats what you wish to call them at most UK schools. It's not limited to the USA. My last flight in the States, two weeks ago, was in a lovely well maintened Seneca, much better than the crap I've flown over here recently.

I'm not saying you can't hour build cheaply in the UK, I built all my hours in Europe. All I'm saying is, don't discount the States just based on the usual misconceptions that are constantly spouted on here. You might just even learn something from the Americans while you are there, but that truly is pushing the limits of the imagination for some people on this site!

[A and C]

Adam75

Thank you for your eliquent and informative reply it has added new depth and understanding to this subject, I am sure that hours builders will value your contribution.

Youngskywalker

Having an FAA CPL/IR including about 2000 hours flying for a part 121 airline I think I that you are correct about learning from the americans, I enjoyed my time in the USA (apart from tha appauling TV!) but I can see it for what it is, the rock bottom price aircraft are death traps when and if they fly, to get a good aircraft you will pay about 50% more. The weather is not as good as some would like you to understand.
I don't think that I have a lot of misconseptions about flying in the USA and see the advantages of both sides of the Atlantic.
What I do want hours builders to think about is the options, in the UK a lot of people go on about "rip-off UK" and let that cloud the judgment.

They think that hours are just for the logbook and get back to the UK to find that they are totaly unprepaired for the CPL flight test in a UK enviroment resulting in more money spent training to get up to standard for the test.

With the fall in the value of the pound the USA is becoming a marginal option on cost and I think that this has tipped the balance in the direction of Europe at the moment, don't get me wrong flying in the USA will still be fun but just as much fun can be had by heading south in Europe just two days of hour building can take you from the UK to Spain. Why not do that....... the food is better!

[adam75]

I think the term is British people not just English, subtle difference!



y re right! sorry.:rolleyes:

[potkettleblack]

If your going to use big words then the correct spelling is eloquent. Which UK FTO do you have a vested interest in?

[mad_jock]

If I was doing my hour building again and could get a deal for dry hire like A and C has been talking about I wouldn't be going to FL again.

Pick up the plane with a fresh 50 hour check done.
4 bottles of oil in the back.
A tent.
A chart of Europe with all the places you can get avgas

And don't stop at France head south for 25 hours of flying and go for a Tapas in Gib then come back.

Then get another 50 hour done and don't stop at France and go for a moose burger in Lapland in the artic circle in Finland and back.

Might cost you a bit more but by hell if you get to an interview and get asked "Whats your most memorable experience in aviation so far?"

The interviewing Pilots are going to be so gobbed smacked you have actually done something with your hour building. And if your really lucky someone on the panel will run their own light aircraft. Jobs a goodun all those :mad: questions will disappear because they actually have someone who has done something interesting that they are jealous because they would want to do it.

Straight to the sim young man. And you can bet your last dollar that whoever will be running the sim will have heard of your trip.

[34munich]

madmal,

I have done both - Ca & Fl. weather is the only thing better - there isn't much to be saved. I have had great trips in Fl down to the Keys out to Bahamas and all over Fl and up to New Orleans. Same in Calif to Las vegas and over Grand Canyon.

I'm in Dublin Flyers in Weston and we have a PA28 Cherokee and a PA28 Arrow (complex) its €40 a month plus €150/ hr tacho for the Arrow. Lots of contacts with the airlines if you want to go flying as a career.

email me and I can give you details

Regards

[A and C]

I have to confess to two vested interests, the first is that I have not enjoyed sitting next to some of the graduates from the magenta line kindergartens who won't take out the autopilot below 200 ft and go heads down on the FMC below FL100 when in a busy TMA. I want to see a bit more practical airmanship from the right seat. I think that 80 hours of post PPL flying is likely to help no end in this area.

The second is that I offer high quality aircraft to hours builders at a price that can match if not beat the prices in the USA.

My wish is to help the new aspiring fATPL's to get the best deal for themselves, to not be taken in by the USA is always best brigade who don't do the sums properly and end up paying more in the long run.
To this end I offer a simple transparent pricing policy so that the hours builder can see exactly what the flying will cost and give them the opportunity to control some of the costs by using common sense and preflight planning.

I hope that this is clears up my views on the subject & thanks for the spelling leason:ok:

[Bahee 96]

I did a PPL in Florida and really enjoyed it. I want to renew my sep this July in California. Anyone know any jaa approved schools out there??

Cheers

[FlyCorona]

I have no first-hand knowledge about this, but we have a few folks doing the following at our airport -- I thought I'd throw in a data point, to consider the very cheap-end, since we got mentioned :cool:

This is probably the barest bones approach to time building, or at least, that I've ever seen. I give them kudos for figuring it out. I'm sure this sort of strategy works in numerous airports in the USA as well, possibly even cheaper against the airfare for the east coast.

using ba.com: LHR-LAX 402 GBP Return ($647)

accomodations with one of our pilots: $300 per mo for a room in a private home (we helped set this up)

bicycle to the airport (really, 3 so far have done it this way. otherwise, $39/day is pretty accurate and adds $1200): nil.

aircraft: C150 @ $65/hr x 80 hours: $5200

= $6,147 USD or 3818 GBP (at 1.61 GBP per USD), or 47.72 GBP per hour.

It's not for everyone, that's for sure. :)

Cheers,

- Mike
GM, Fly Corona

[bryan1978]

Check out Riverside Flight Center in Tulsa, OK. A pat 141 school. Did all my training there, no problem getting a plane weather is pretty good this time of the year. There are a variety of students, from India, Sri Lanka and from Europe, and the owner is from Europe. They also provide a place to stay and free shuttle to and from school, wal mart and apartments.

[Charlie Zulu]

Another option which hasn't raised its eyebrow on this thread as of yet is to buy a share in an aeroplane that is maintained to the highest of standards and probably looks a lot nicer than most club aircraft.

This is a great way to get to know new people as well as learning all about maintenance schedules. However this is more for the longer term and is suited for someone who wishes to fly general aviation aeroplanes after their "hour building" time.

For some example figures I paid £4,375 for my 1/8 share in a TB9. Standing order of £90 per month and an hourly rate of £66 wet. All landings at our home airfield, Fife, are included. Taking these figures as an example, over a three month period for your "hour building" session that would work out to be:

80 Hours * £66 = £5,280
3 Months * £90 = £270
Purchase = £4,375

This works out to be £9,925 which per hour would be £124.06 but if you take the purchase price out of the equation because of course you can always sell your share afterwards, this would take the hourly rate down to £69.38 per hour wet.

The drawback is that some groups don't really like hour builders buying into the group but if you buy into the group for the long term...

I personally haven't bought my share for hour building as I have many hundreds of hours already and bought it as I moved to Scotland last year and wished to be part of a group once again. The TB9 share came up and I jumped at the chance.

However in saying this I am still all for flying over in the United States. When I say United States I don't simply mean Florida. Go over to the western states or up north. The scenery is a lot more varied and you'll have a great time as well as putting all of that theory of density altitudes into practice.

I still fondly look back on my time flying in around California, Nevada, Arizona etc and wouldn't change it for the world. However I was hiring an aeroplane in California simply as a touring holiday not just for "hour building". I liked it so much that I went back the year after.

Before California I spent a couple of weeks in Florida doing the same touring... still great fun but so prefer the western states. I have since been back to Florida on a few occassions for my FAA CPL/IR/MEP (or rather FAA CP-IA-ASEL-AMEL) courses.

Granted once you factor in accommodation, flights, food, the weak pound etc then the hourly rate will probably be on par with those at the local flying club in the United Kingdom or elsewhere in Europe.

Basically don't look at the "hour building" stage as simply something you have to do before starting the CPL course. Use it to do something different. Something that you can use to your advantage at the interview. This will give you a great advantage and the interview panel will likely remember you which can only be a good thing (hopefully). For this I can whole heartedly agree with mad_jock.

[A and C]

That is the way that I went with my hour building and very much enjoyed the time I had with the aircraft share, however I did have to a lot of unforeseen maintenance that would have cost a lot if I had not been able to do it myself.

The other problem for the person aspiring to the ATPL is that aircraft shares can be slow to re-sell an this might result in a cash flow problem.

I certainly would not dismiss aircraft ownership as a way to build hours but it is a bit unpredictable on the finical front.

[Dane-Ger]

I think people are still missing the point here about hour building. you have to consider it as part of your training, it is so important that you get your nav in order, you try to land at as many different airports from large controlled ones to small grass fields. you have to be able to keep your altitude spot on and not loose headings, you have to be able to cope with all sorts of weather and visibility with confidence.

It doesn't matter how cheap your hour building is if your 25 hour CPL course becomes a 50 hour one because your skills aren't up to it. then there is no saving at all. even a resit on the CPL costs £1000, even more on the MEIR.

I would love to fly in the USA (and will hopefully at some point), and did a week of flying in Spain as part of my hour building, this is also great experience but what I've found during the CPL course is that I would recommend doing a good chunk of your flying in the country you intend to sit the CPL in.

Just now I am doing nav trips into the scopttish mountains, coping with mountain wave and turbulance, it's hard enough mantaining datums without ever having experienced such weather before.

[madmal]

Hi Guys,
Has anyone done any hour building with Florida Flyers?

[IFly0toATPL]

Guys, did you eventually do time building at Fly Corona? I would love to fly some hours in California and they seem cheap and interesting.
Thanks