Engine startup order on the Propliners (DC3, DC4 etc)

[b377]

Any one know the standard engine startup order used on the Propliners ( DC3, DC4, DC6)? I'm sure it wasn't a straight 1-2-3-4.

What about the startup order in modern 3 & 4 engine jets.

[DC-ATE]

Two-engine aircraft: 2, 1.

Four-engine aircraft: 3, 4, 2, 1.

[pigboat]

Start the ones with the hydraulic pumps on 'em first. :p

[SNS3Guppy]

Which is started first depends on several things, including the configuration of the airplane (what pumps and accessories are on what engine, for example), and the operation involved (two engine taxi vs. four engine taxi, etc).

Generally I always started 1, 2, 3, and 4 in that order. In aircraft with inboard engines having hydraulic pumps, then inboards first, or alternating inboards first.

When taxiing on two engines, usually inboards only, and with short taxi's, then all four engines turning to warm up in the short taxi distance available.

[Will Fraser]

Am I right in assuming DC-ATE's sequence has to do with pax-ops and a port loading and unloading format, at times with engines turning?

[bfisk]

FWIW the #2 (right hand) engine is always started first on the King Air, due to the wiring to the battery being shorter :)

[Will Fraser]

I remember that the critical engine is started first, no? In twins anyway.

[DC-ATE]

Will Fraser -
Am I right in assuming DC-ATE's sequence has to do with pax-ops and a port loading and unloading format, at times with engines turning

Yes. And the sequence I gave was for 'Normal' ops. Obviously, there's always exceptions. I have NEVER seen a sequence of 1, 2, 3, 4, however, as someone stated, except the 'default' Flight Sim way, but I thought we were talking "real" here.

[Will Fraser]

Jetways are fairly "recent". A lot of excitable little boys and girls on the ramp at loading. The stairs were short steep and narrow. Best to keep the scimitars out of harm's way.

[kiwi1011fe]

On the 747-400 the start order is 3&4 simultaneously auto start, followed by 1&2 simultaneously auto start.

Dont know about the -200....if that is still considered a modern jet!!!!

[TowerDog]

I thiught we started the -200 4-3-2-1...?

It has been 18 months since I flew one, memory is dropping fast:sad:

[SNS3Guppy]

I remember that the critical engine is started first, no? In twins anyway.


There is no critical engine on the ground, and this has no bearing on the start order for the airplane.

The start order is sometimes varied in order to test engine-driven equipment, such as alternating engines to test hydraulic pumps, etc.

I have NEVER seen a sequence of 1, 2, 3, 4, however, as someone stated, except the 'default' Flight Sim way, but I thought we were talking "real" here.


Standard starting order for us in four engine piston and turboprop, and turbojet equipment, was 1, 2, 3, 4. Yes, we are talking "real" here. No, simulators not involved.

However, as you brought it up, in the simulator we performed the same start sequence, same as on the line. 1, 2, 3, 4.

[Big Pistons Forever]

When I was on the DC 6 we started inboard,outboard (same side)inboard,outboard (other side). An inboard was always started first because that is where the hyd pumps are. The order could be 3,4,2,1 or 2,1,3,4 at the captains discretion. A factor was whether the captain started all engines or whether the captain started the right wing engines and the copilot started the left side engines (the better way IMO). In the later case the convention at my company was 3,4,2,1.

[DC-ATE]

SNS3Guppy -
Standard starting order for us in four engine piston and turboprop, and turbojet equipment, was 1, 2, 3, 4.

I'd be curious to know just what aircraft had that starting order. I flew the Connies, DC-6/7, and NEVER saw that order. But the initial question related to piston aircraft.

[411A]

DC-6/7 types were normally started 3-4-2-1.
Hydraulic pumps on two and three.
In addition, and this could be quite important...in the event of a fire whilst starting, starting the inboard engine first on four engine types provided better access for the fire guard.

And...to anticipate the next question, if hydraulic pumps were on engines two and three, what accessory was driven by numbers one and four?
Among others...cabin superchargers (roots blowers).

And yes, I flew both types mentioned.

[pigboat]

Normal start sequence of both Gulfstream 1 and Fairchild/Fokker F-27 was 2 - 1, however both manufacturers recommended you occasionally start out of sequence to verify the operation of the de-icer boot suction.

[Exaviator]

"Any one know the standard engine startup order used on the Propliners ( DC3, DC4, DC6)? I'm sure it wasn't a straight 1-2-3-4.

What about the startup order in modern 3 & 4 engine jets."

As you can see from the replies above there is no fixed sequence - it depends on your companies SOPs, as is often the case when you ask these kind of questions. When I flew DC3s it was number 2 engine first allowing the pax door to remain open until the last minute. (The traffic officer had to exit through that door) When I flew 747s it was 1234 :bored:

[SNS3Guppy]

I'd be curious to know just what aircraft had that starting order. I flew the Connies, DC-6/67, and NEVER saw that order. But the initial question related to piston aircraft.


Among others, the PB4Y-2...which we typically started 1, 2, 3, and 4. Sometimes just the inboards, sometimes all four, sometimes the inboards then the outboards, sometimes for variety we'd start from the right and work left, and sometimes from the inboard working out. However, generally we'd start far left and work right, 1, 2, 3, 4. Most others operating alongside us, which included DC4's, DC6's, and DC7's, did the same.

In the C-130, we operated typically 1, 2, 3, and 4, but also frequently started or taxied on just the inboards.

In the B747...1, 2, 3, 4.

In the C97...1, 2, 3, 4.

[Old Fella]

Don't know what C130 you flew Guppy, but on the A, E and H models I operated on we started #3 then #4 followed by GTC/APU shutdown then started #2 followed by #1. (On "A" the GTC doors were manually closed. Guess the "E" and "H" just followed the traditional way). L/M aboard, "Doors closed/Checked" Tristar as #2 first then #3 and #1. Pretty sure the B707 and B747 Classics we used same as C130.

[SNS3Guppy]

I operated on the A model C-130, and we started 1, 2, 3, and 4 in that order. If we taxied on 2 engines, then 2, 3, in that order. We also operated our GTC until takeoff, it had no doors, and we had no limitations on operating it in flight, if necessary. Our A models were not the same as yours.

We had different motors, different propellers, a GTC upgrade, and other significant airframe differences and modifications.

On the 747 we operate 1, 2, 3, and 4, save for occasions when we taxi on only the inboards...in which case we do 2, then 3.

[airsupport]

As DC-ATE said originally, that is the way we also normally started DC3s, DC4s and DC6s, and also Viscounts. :ok:

Never seen anyone go 1-2-3-4, but reading the previous posts maybe that is an American idea? :confused:

[b377]

As you can see from the replies above there is no fixed sequence - it depends on your companies SOPs, as is often the case when you ask these kind of questions. When I flew DC3s it was number 2 engine first allowing the pax door to remain open until the last minute. (The traffic officer had to exit through that door) When I flew 747s it was 1234 http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wbored.gif

Ok there is no fixed manufacture specified order. That is the answer then. No need to be bored, some of us want to know these things. Never-the-less regradless of the latter 3- 4 -2 -1 seems to have been the more common way. AA DC-3s that had a RHS pax door obviously started # 1 first.

[Old Fella]

Guppy, don't doubt what you are saying, just wondered why you would keep the GTC running until take-off. What was the purpose for that. I am presuming you had an ATM for electrical power (20KVA) and the Emergency System Hydraulic Pump plus a one-way "Pineapple" check valve which would close the GTC air delivery duct when engine bleed was available.

[captjns]

L188 Engine number 3 because that's where the external power cart plugged in.

Back in the day on the 747-400 we started number 4 for the engine driven hydraulic pump pressurizes the brake system... then 1-2-3.

Boeing 727 engine 3 during push back... no hydraulic power mishap risk.

[Tee Emm]

In the later case the convention at my company was 3,4,2,1.

It's going back to 1952 but we used the same order of starting on Lincolns so the tradition goes back a long way. Hydraulic pump came to life when starting No 3 to enable the bomb doors to close.

[barit1]

Exaviator:

As you can see from the replies above there is no fixed sequence - it depends on your companies SOPs, as is often the case when you ask these kind of questions. When I flew DC3s it was number 2 engine first allowing the pax door to remain open until the last minute. (The traffic officer had to exit through that door)

All well and good for the majority of DC-3's; but the earliest DC-3's of AA were ordered with RH pax doors, and a few other customers had RH doors as well. A few of these ships survive! :)

[SNS3Guppy]

Guppy, don't doubt what you are saying, just wondered why you would keep the GTC running until take-off. What was the purpose for that. I am presuming you had an ATM for electrical power (20KVA) and the Emergency System Hydraulic Pump plus a one-way "Pineapple" check valve which would close the GTC air delivery duct when engine bleed was available.


We didn't always operate the GTC until takeoff, but we did have the option. There was no GTC door, and consequently it didn't close after engine bleed was available. As stated, these airplanes weren't configured exactly the same as other C-130's, and certainly not the same as other A models.

The GTC did offer increased duct bleed for engine start so far as volume, and with taxi on two with starts on the way to the runway, the GTC offered increased reliability and startability, especially on hot and high density altitude days. It also offered an emergency backup in flight.

[Kapt]

Om the good old rice rocket, YS-11 #2 then #1.

[Brit312]

I can only say that every aircraft both prop or jet that I have been involved with has started inthe order of 3,4,2,1, the reason given mainly to do with hydraulic supplies

The Connie[749] in particular started 3, then 4 to power up the secondary hydraulic system which supplied hyds for the brakes, and amongst other things supplied emergency hyds for the flying controls via the cross over valve so whilst engines 3 and 4 were being started the pilot would check that this valve was open and more important check that the valve had actually closed by the loss of hyd pressure to the flying controls. This check had to be completed before 1 or 2 engines were started as they supplied the Primary hyd system which was used for the flying controls.

[NutLoose]

Brit312I can only say that every aircraft both prop or jet that I have been involved with has started inthe order of 3,4,2,1, the reason given mainly to do with hydraulic supplies

That and the other main reasoning is if you have an engine fire / wet start etc on start up, you do not want to be going in to deal with it under a live engine, so starting the inboards first makes a lot of sense, especially with a big whirling bit in front.

VC10 we used to do the 3,4,2,1 starts as well.

[b377]

Don't forget the psicological factor in adhering to the traditional 3 4 2 1 sequence. It is quietly considered 'bad luck' by many a seasoned airmen to use any other order. The is probably more truth in this than you think.

[MMEMatty]

L188 Engine number 3 because that's where the external power cart plugged in.

I thought that it was No. 3 because it was opposite to where the Air Start Unit was plugged in. If the ASU plugged into the wing root, then No. 2 was started first

Matty

[Huck]

Douglas trimotors (DC10, MD11) start 3-1-2.

Gear and gear doors on number 3, you see....

[b377]

Douglas trimotors (DC10, MD11) start 3-1-2.

same as the Ford and Fokker Trimotors then ...

[mustafagander]

I seem to recall that we started #4 first on the L188. It had the 2 speed gearbox on the alternator.

[CortaVento]

On the L188 (Electras) the first engine to be started was always that one where the two speed gear box was installed. If I still remeber ( almost 24 years ago...) all electrical load was fed from this generator until the engines were shifted to high speed mode (higher RPM/higher noise) just before takeoff. On Varig's fleet the 2 speed gearbox was placed on engine #4 (always the first to be started).

[Avtrician]

I was going to say that the GTC door on the A model C130 was manualy closed (Done it many a time.) so the GTC couldnt be used during taxi, or flight. But if in Guppys case the doors were removed then I guess it could be done.

The Hercs were started No3 first then 4 as they were on the other side of the plane to the crew door and GTC (not safe to be closing doors 3 ft from a spinning prop), with 2 & 1 started after all doors were closed. Theoretically it was best to start No2 first as it was cosest to the GTC therefore less pressure loss on start (the ATM and Generator usualy dropped off on start) but dur to the danger to ground crew, No 3 was started first then bleed air from there was used to start 4 and so on.

The E model had actuators on the GTC doors, so could be used on taxi if needed , but not advisable in the air as the doors would come off.

DC 3 would start No2 first, as once again it was on the other side from the entry door, No 1 would be strarted when the door was closed. ( dont want oil smoke on start , getting in the cabin now, do we.)

On thinking back, all the RAAF transport typ aircraft started the right side engines first due to Pax doors being on the left, and I think the fighters start the right engines first as well.

[barit1]

Here's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DcfyWaD0vQ&feature=related) of B-17G "Aluminum Overcast" startup 2-1-3-4 (i.e. inboards first) using (ta taa) inertia starters. :ok:

[Old Fella]

I must have been very unobservant during my years as a C130A F/E. Forget the actual figure now, but if the Duct Pressure dropped below about 20 psi when the No 3 Starter was engaged it was likely that there was a leak in the ducting. Certainly can't recall the "dropping off" of the ATM being a regular occurence.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Watched the video of the B 17 start. Seemed like one engine had barely started coughing and he was cranking the next one.....

[brakedust]

old fella, the atm on gtc models always dropped off line on engine starts. Not enough air to sustain both eng start and atm. This is true of all models, untill apu's were introduced. Always started 3-4-2-1, mostly for ground handeling reasons. On twins 2-1, and on tri-jets 3-2-1. A lot to do with hyd and elec too.

[Old Fella]

Brakedust. Your blanket claim that the ATM would always drop off line during engine start on all GTC/ATM equipped C130's is simply incorrect. I don't know how many starts Brakedust has conducted on such C130's. What I do know is that Brakedust is mistaken. In my ten years on two GTC/ATM equipped models (A & E) I can say that the ATM did occasionally drop off line during engine start, it WAS NOT a regular occurrence on those RAAF aircraft which I operated. In fact, the RAAF C130 had a "Battery Engine Start Button" which could be used to shut off the ATM air supply during engine start in "Hot/High" conditions. The start could be converted from a normal start to a "Battery Engine Start" if engine acceleration was slow or it could be conducted from initiation. It would be helpful if Brakedust were to give us all some insight into his experience on the C130, maybe on his personal profile.

[PT6-6]

if i have a GPU available #1 first, if not #2 first...:ok: