What Microlight?

[Chef du Jours]

Morning

Grandma, bless her and may she Rest In Piece, has left me some money which I am looking to use to purchase a microlight. My research has narrowed the choices down to 3 - the YLAC WT9 Dynamic; Ikarus C42 and EV97 TeamEurostar. Of course, I'll be arranging a test flight in each of these 3, but also wondered if anyone had any comments on my final 3 (flown in them, or better still own them); and have I missed another bird worth considering?

Any input gratefully appreciated.

CdJ.

[javelin]

Champ, Cub, Jodel, Luscombe, Emeraude or anything else that doesn't have a snowmobile engine and has some character :E

[chevvron]

To be realistic, depends what you want to do. For cross countries. you could look at a Shadow DD, but if you just want a fun machine, an AX3 or AX2000 takes some beating.

[Shoestring Flyer]

Have you considered a Sportcruiser? Ok so you may have to build it (put it together) but its no big deal.

[ExSp33db1rd]

He asked for Microlights. Do your choices fit into the microlight category in the UK, javelin ? ( I presume UK is involved ? )

Many of us are restricted to microlights as we can no longer meet the requirements for a Class 2 medical cert. that is a necessity with the PPL that is mandatory for your choices in NZ, javelin, hence our involvement with "microlights" ( LSA I guess, really )

Their 'snowmobile' engines are superior to, more economical than, more reliable than, and easier to handle than many 'Spam Can' 1940's technology engines that I have experienced - and you don't need licensed aeronautical maintenance engineers who charge like wounded bulls, to change the oil and plugs. ( at least not in NZ )

First of all - 2 of the options are low wing, and the third is high wing, so make that decision.

Which construction type do you prefer ? The Dynamic is carbon fibre, and the Euro Star metal I believe ?

My aero club started with a Tecnam, which is basically aluminium with both fabric and 'plastic' additions, but we damaged two fuselage stringers and when buying my own syndicate machine, we went for wood and fibreglass, like a boat, and are delighted with the ALPI Pioneer - 300.

With V.P. prop. retractable gear, 130 kts, cruise, 15 litres/hr consumption, and 4 hours endurance with 2 up and baggage, it doesn't deserve the name ' microlight' and beats the 152's and 172's that are around hands down. And it is fun to fly.

My only experience of the EuroStar was a model known here as the Sportcruiser - same manufacturer. It was lovely to fly, and had a wide cockpit, but it had a heavy empty tank weight, so 2 people and fuel for any distance might be a challenge - do the sums. Not especially fast, either.

A colleague has a Dynamic, loves it, just fitted long range tanks and enhanced wings, with winglets - not quite NZ - UK nonstop, but watch this space !! Hurtles along at around 140 kts most times.

Best of luck, you'll love whatever you choose.

[Rod1]

Non of the following are Micros (in the UK);

Champ, Cub, Jodel, Luscombe, Emeraude, Pioneer – 300, Sportcruiser

You have chosen a slightly odd mix. The Dynamic is a carbon hot ship which will tour at 120kn, the Ikarus C42 and the EV97 TeamEurostar are capable of around 85kn. Watch the useful load on all three! The C42 and EV97 are both used extensively as trainers, and are direct competitors. The Dynamic is in a different class speed wise and competes with the CT and MCR01 ULC. All three can be factory built or home built.

Go fly as many different types as you can. Talk to real owners and take your time!

Good luck,
Rod1

[xrayalpha]

Please don't buy a C42 second-hand - because I'm trying to buy another one!

[larzabell]

I done 25 hours in the ev97. It has great visibilty and a sporty responsive feel. I quite liked it but chose a jabiru in the end.

[katana 1]

You can not compare the Jab to a Eurostar very compact very uncomfortable
and no toe brakes. we are on our second Eurostar knocks the socks off of all
the others and it looks like an aeroplane and not something put together with
Fabric.
If you are looking for speed and twitchy go for the Bambi and hope it don't fall apart.

[Rans Flyer]

You could go for the 100kt cruising Jabiru. (http://www.flightforlife.co.uk/JABIRU.jpg)
Cheaper than all 3 as well.

I can get from Deanland to Abbeville and back on £28.

ex. Rans flyer ;-)

Flight for Life. (http://www.Flightforlife.co.uk)

[katana 1]

And a sore @rse

[Rans Flyer]

"You can not compare the Jab to a Eurostar"
This is VERY True,
1. A ready to fly Jabiru is £11,500 less than the Eurostar.
2. The Jabiru's Vno is 15mph faster.
3. The Jabiru is stronger (+9g as opposed to +6)
4. The Jabiru's cabin is 1" wide than the Eurostar.

This is why when it comes to UK spec microlights the Jabiru still holds the records for Altitude, Economy and Speed (2 x records).

Also, you an paint the Jabiru microlight without it going over the weight limit ;-)

Don't get me wrong the Eurostar is a very nice plane, but £££ for Knots nothing comes close to a Jabiru. Simple as that.

[katana 1]

All very good but you still got the sore @rse
I rest my case :)

[Rans Flyer]

Depends how big your @rse is!
I find the soft leather seats in my Jab are great.
It's not my @rse thats the problem it's my bladder, I could never use the 6 hours endurance of the Jab, I'd have to come down for a pee!

http://www.flightforlife.co.uk/tiny-jab.jpg

[katana 1]

Sorry but from the front it looks like one of natures swimmers

[Rod1]

Rans mate, very nice aircraft.

Chef du Jours, did we help, or do you need more?

Rod1

[Rans Flyer]

I've always thought the Eurostar looked a bit like.....

http://iyokobat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/picture-jetsons-gerry-dvorak.jpg

or

http://flight.cz/cricri/photos/FR-Frederic-Secchi/france_secchi_3.jpg


Hello Rod1, Different thread, same old conversation eh! ;-)

[katana 1]

I like it.:ok:

[patowalker]

Rans Flyer,

You really need to catch up. It now looks like this

EuroStar SL - Great Light Aircraft, Now Even Better (http://www.evektor.cz/eurostar/advanced-airframe.asp)

pato

[katana 1]

RF
Bet you would swap for that one.:p

[jonkil]

Rod 1 summed it up pretty well.
I fly the C42 100hp microlight. I like it, I like it a lot, enough that I fly 200+ hours a year, over Europe and the UK regularly, I am based in Ireland.
I find it a very capable touring aircraft. Regarding the engine issue, you will hear the snide remarks as stated earlier, just ignorance on the part of the poster and you can disregard this type of crap, they will grow up and learn yet !
This type of topic comes up all the time, which one is better?
They are all good, they do the job slightly differently, a few questions:
Do you want a high wing or low wing, high wing are easier to hangar in a congested environment and less likely to suffer hangar rash.
The C42 has astounding short field ability, can operate easily from 200 metres of grass and still offers a pretty good cruise of 80 knots plus.
Is an all metal aircraft important, then the Eurostar it is.
If speed is important then some of the faster composite stuff is the job, remember you have given yourself a wide budget mark, The C42/Eurostar league is 35K plus up to 80K for the upper end, it may be prudent to decide your budget first.
I have owned Rans/C42's/Eurostars and have flew quite a lot of others, I still choose the C42 on the criteria I judge it by, but that is very much my criteria hence my choice.
Rod's idea is good, talk to owners/pilots, get a trip in as many as possible, but bear in mind that each owner will probably give you a biased view of the type they fly. The jabiru aircraft is also fine, it is roomier than it looks and has a good speed envelope, but one of my judging criteria was that it had to be a Rotax 912 engine, from experiences gained by being an aircraft inspector and check pilot. I have seen numerous 912's with over 2000 hours on them, they are superb. There is a reason why those type of aircraft is holding the superb s/h value, it is simply operating/owning costs, and the ability to operate from short strips, couple this to the fact that they leave the older spam sans in their wake and there is simply no contest, just look and see how much old stuff is in the classifieds at dirt money.
By the way, I have a couple of C42's on my books should you be interested ;)

[ExSp33db1rd]

Non of the following are Micros (in the UK);

Champ, Cub, Jodel, Luscombe, Emeraude, Pioneer – 300, Sportcruiser


Wot's the UK criteria pls ?

In NZ it's 544 Kg ( 1200 lbs) - unless amphibian when it goes up to 600 Kg. but V.P. and retractable u/c permitted, but no night flying or flight over towns ( might restrict you a bit in the UK !! )

In the USA I believe the limit is 1300 lbs but only fixed gear, and they call them Light Sports Aircraft.

[patowalker]

In most of Europe it is 450kg.

In the UK there is also a maximum empty weight, defined as 450kg minus two 86kg pilots, minus 1 hour's fuel at MCP. For a Rotax 912 powered aircraft this usually means 268kg.

[Rans Flyer]

There's no such thing as a perfect aircraft, an aircraft with superb short field performance is normally a bit slower in the cruise because of the hight lift wings, etc. They are ALL nice, and have both excellent, and not so excellent features. It's all about budget. If you have 10K in your pocket you are not going to get a 747.

My personal favourite microlight is an MCR-01.
Would I prefer to have it instead of my Jabiru? Answer = YES. But my 200H Jabiru is worth about 25K and a similar S/H MCR-01 would set me back over £50K, and If I had a spare £50K for an aircraft I would buy a J430 instead. So it's just not going to happen!

BTW, the SL does look nice Pato, and yes katana I would change my jab for one, but only if someone gave me the extra £30,000 difference in cost. But then I'd sell it and buy a J430 like this......
http://www.airteamimages.com/pics/76/76267_big.jpg

[Chef du Jours]

Chaps

Many thanks for all the input, very useful indeed, quite alot to think about, but heh a nice position to be in.

I'm going to give the Eurostar and Dynamic a go first as looks and performance are pretty important to me and both seem to score highly.

I'll come back at some point and let you know how I get on but in the meantime, thanks again.

CdJ.

[bingoboy]

The Pioneer 200 microlight has a certain style

[Rod1]

This is not the micro version, but there is very little difference externally.

G-KARK (http://www.laaeastmidlands.org/GKARK.html)

Rod1

[Rans Flyer]

Nice, really nice!
Rod you have got to take me for a ride in it.

[Rod1]

I would be very happy to swap rides. I have flown most of the aircraft in this thread, but my experience with the Jab was with a vary early mk1 which is probably not very representative of the current fleet.

Rod1

[Rans Flyer]

Well there has been a few changes over the early ones.
Mine has the long fuselage, full height rudder and winglets.

http://www.flightforlife.co.uk/winglets.jpg


Dave Almay is hosting a Jabiru & Rans fly-in at Fenland this weekend.
I'm not sure what day I going yet (I'll need to check the weather), but if your around...... ;-)

[dstevens]

I own and fly a Dynamic.........

[Barshifter]

Go for a total change!!

Convert to Flexwing and save yourself a fat load of money.New flexwings cruise 100mph with the wind in your hair for half the price of the 3 axis machines you mentioned.

Just about the best fun you can have with your clothes on.

[rjtjrt]

dstevens

Can you give your impressions of the Dynamic? What model?
Pros and cons so far.
How long have you had it, and Pros and Cons/likes and dislikes so far. Any problems.
Real world performance.
Looks to be a very impresive aircraft on paper.
John

[tangovictor]

Chef
I was in a similar situation, I learnt to fly in a EV97 Eurostar, nice machine
then I decided to try every machine I could, all have good & not so good points, a lot depends of which you trained in
I eventually brought a Dynamic, similar to fly to the EV97, although faster more comfortable, more room etc,
I would suggest you try as many as you can, make a short list, then, pay for an hours lesson in each, not with the seller,
if you'd like any futher info, feel free to pm me, with telephone number,

[rjtjrt]

As per post 33
any pilot and/or owner reports on Dynamic would be of interest
John

[tangovictor]

Dynamic WT9 great machine, very few vice's, except the price
with the Euro exchange rate even worse, I notice your in Australia
I think, they are available via the NZ importer,
unlike the UK you can have retractable landing gear / extra fuel tanks
etc, I am very pleased with mine. :ok:

[hhobbit]

I like my CTSW...
YouTube - G-CETH Touch and Go, Limetree Co. Laois, Ireland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtaqxgDWuZQ&feature=channel_page)
very roomy, not everyone likes the looks, but the view out is unsurpassed

[KeyPilot]

The best UK microlight can't be in serious doubt. A friend bought one of the first, I've flown it quite a bit myself now, it's truly awesome:

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/3/5/8/1523853.jpg

[XXPLOD]

I currently fly both the C42 and Eurostar out of Popham. Both very good planes. The C42 is in some ways more refined, e.g. electric trim, a handbrake (the Eurostar doesn't have one!).

The Eurostar has it's flaws, the lack of a parking brake, the trim is a little 'blunt' and not well positioned but you forgive it all of that as it is the better of the 2 to fly. Lighter in aileron and feels more sporty. Probably slightly more challenging to fly than the C42, it can float down the runway. The perspex canopy is great for vis but it can get a tad warm in there on a hot day.

[dstevens]

I can confirm the other two comments about the Dynamic....absolutely fantastic to fly, top class build quality and finish, almost viceless. Real world cruise for me is 100 to 115kts, more economical at 90 if duration is the target, slightly less forgiving in the landing than the EV97 if you are too fast, but easy to sort out. I owned a factory build Eurostar for 2 years before the Dynamic, and would not swap back for any money.

Bear in mind the UK derivative is slighly different than the rest of world version, due to 450kg MTOW...so no extra bits like winglets and retracts.

And buying in the UK is quite painful.

[EI-BNC]

Have a look at the Roko Aero NG4 nice machine

[OyYou]

If I could add my 2pence worth.

Flown about 60 hours in an 912 80HP fixed gear Dynamic. Great plane. High price here in the UK and restricted to 450kgs to get it into our microlight bracket. With this weight restriction on say a 255kg empty airplane with two 90kg lard ar$$es in it, this leaves only 15kg for fuel etc ..legally.

If you don't have these restrictions and the price in your neck of the woods is reasonable then it's a good choice.

Can be tricky to land consistently as it refuses to stop flying if you have any excess speed. Apart from that, a pleasure to fly.

Can't compare with the others mentioned as I don't have any experience on them.

If you are buying in the UK, check who the importer is, these days. Heard a rumour that there were some changes in that area.

Regards

[Mickey Kaye]

Which is the more robust for training a C42 or Eurostar? and which is the cheaper to operate based on 200 hours per year?

[XXPLOD]

I would say the C42 is more robust for training, as evidenced by the fact that just about every 3 axis microlight school uses it.

The Eurostar can certainly be used for training and several schools do, but the low wing and thus the access via the wing, the perspex canopy etc... mean that it is likely to get shabby quicker than a C42.

As for operating costs I doubt there's anything in it as they both use the same 80 hp Rotax, same fuel burn/maintenance etc...

[aviate1138]

A small indication of the UK microlight fraternity achievements in the World Air Games in Turin.

BMAA

09-Jun-2009 - World Air Games - British Champions

Four UK Pilots have won the microlight - flexwing title at the 2009 World Air Games in Italy today. Team Rob Grimwood and Chris Saysell took the first place with Rob and Rees Keene taking second. Less than a second separated the two aircraft in the pylon racing event. The nearest rivals came over twenty seconds behind, well trounced. 09-06-2009

Well done chaps.

[lastgasp]

I would like to thank all those who have contributed information/impressions to this thread.

It has proved to be most interesting and helpful. Well done, guys!

[wacits]

as a by the by.

Rob Grimwood flys the eurostar (ev-97) at his flight school. Another thought is size of pilot as if you are short in the legs ( cannot reach the rudders) the eurostar rudders cannot easily be adjusted.

[bubo]

few comments:
Eurostar and Sportcruiser are sharing just the same airport (LKKU) where they are getting born. Different company, different people.
Having 200+ hours on EV-97 Eurostar (mainly cross-country including ferry flight to UK ;-) ) I can definitely recommend this as easy and nice to fly while providing good performance figures. I am not (and I was not) a sales person for Eurostars, that´s my opinion.
Don´t go for Roko NG4 - they are currently only 20+ of them build and you know "never fly A-model of anything". They have excellent marketing but the aircraft is still too new.
No experience on Dynamic or C-42 to be hones.

[Reg-e]

What's happening with the Dynamic in the UK, the importer company is listed as "proposed to be struck off" the companies house register? Is someone else going to take up importing these?

[Genghis the Engineer]

What's happening with the Dynamic in the UK, the importer company is listed as "proposed to be struck off" the companies house register? Is someone else going to take up importing these?

I'd not heard anything, but if YLAC folds they are owners of various agreements with the CAA to allow import (or more to the point, issue of a UK Type Approved Permit to Fly), and those agreements which are built upon some incredibly expensive work by them will be the main asset of the company.

Another company could take this on, and that would certainly be a good thing, but I'm willing to bet that if YLAC do fold, whoever holds the assets will want a fair lump of money for ownership of those agreements.

G

[dstevens]

Everyone needs to be very clear, YLAC are classed by the CAA as the manufacturer, not the importer/distributor, of the WT9 Dynamic. No YLAC, no new Dynamics. Aerospool are simply classed as the sub-contract company making the things, they do not own the rights to the UK derivative. If YLAC did cease to exist, whether the owner would be willing to pass on all the docs needed for someone else to take over is, as indicated by previous post, moot point!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Everyone needs to be very clear, YLAC are classed by the CAA as the manufacturer, not the importer/distributor, of the WT9 Dynamic. No YLAC, no new Dynamics. Aerospool are simply classed as the sub-contract company making the things, they do not own the rights to the UK derivative. If YLAC did cease to exist, whether the owner would be willing to pass on all the docs needed for someone else to take over is, as indicated by previous post, moot point!

I'm sure they would, but certainly not for free. I was involved on the fringes of that certification project - it was huge, expensive, and the bill must have been well over £100k; also the UK version Dynamic is not the same aircraft sold in other countries. That "manufacturer status" is the company's primary asset.

G

[nick.marley]

As YLAC's CEO and 75% shareholder, I can clear up any misunderstanding here.

We are listed as "proposal to be struck off" on Companies House website only because our accounts were overdue. They have been completed now, and the website will be changed within the next few days.

YLAC is not going to fold - on the contrary, we are well capitalised and currently sales are going very well. Even if we were (and, I repeat, we are NOT!), there are no circumstances upon which it could appear on Companies House website - they are just a bunch of civil servants who give you a hard time if your accounts and/or annual return are late.

Genghis - try around £300k for the bill for Type + Company Approvals (split ca. 80:20 between the two)! But thanks to your early support - and that of a group of other talented professionals - we achieved our goal and crossed the finish line.

Certification is long, long, long, long process. Luckily I was only 27 when I co-founded YLAC so had youth on my side (and hair then)!

Hope this helps. Safe and happy flying to all!

Nick

PS YLAC now on Twitter - check out www.twitter.com/yeomanlightair (http://www.twitter.com/yeomanlightair)

[renrut]

It would be if it had a permit and was flying

[KeyPilot]

Am I the only one to note that Reg-e's first post is one making negative comments about another company, and to wonder what his/her agenda might be?

[Reg-e]

Just want to know if this rather nice machine is going to continue to be available here in the UK.

[nick.marley]

Reg-e,

It is - check out my post above (which has only appeared some time after it was posted, as I am a mere "probabtionary ppruner") :{

Thanks,
Nick

[Genghis the Engineer]

Reg-e,

It is - check out my post above (which has only appeared some time after it was posted, as I am a mere "probabtionary ppruner") :{

Thanks,
Nick

I can't remember the number, but any new member's first few posts are delayed and moderated - it's a facility built into the website to fend of spam and flame-wars (and a large number of same do get trapped by the system).

Do a bit more posting, and the probationary bit will vanish.

I can't say I'm overly surprised by your £300k+ bill, it was clear at the start that it wasn't going to be a quick and easy job, for a whole stack of reasons. However, I continue to be impressed that you made it through and hope you keep going for a fair while yet.

G

[nick.marley]

Thanks for the info - and kind words - Genghis.

I would like to say the success was all down to my first-class project management skills, but I'd be lying through my teeth! It was purely and simply through being a tenacious Scouser (accent long since faded but spirit remaining) and refusing ever even to countenance defeat. Remember, the only team ever to have come back from 3-0 down to win the UEFA Champions League is Liverpool.

It is that spirit which got us through. Many said we couldn't do it, we proved them wrong.

[batninth]

I would like to say the success was all down to my first-class project management skills, but I'd be lying through my teeth!

You got through didn't you? That makes the PM skills better than a lot of projects. Next time, I'd suggest you say that you had been using Agile Methods (see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_management))

[Sam Rutherford]

Long range tanks for Dynamic WT9?


Anyone know where they come from?


Thanks, Sam.