MD - All Not Good in Mesa

[Ned-Air2Air]

Heard from a little birdie that on Friday all contract and about 30 production staff were laid off.

Also heard that she who can do no wrong is now in talks with Boeing about them buying back the company. :ok::ok:

I really hope that happens as they would know how to put that company back to how it was in the old days when it actually meant something to own a Hughes/MD product.

Ned

[Jackonicko]

Tilton may not be to everyone's taste, but make no mistake, she saved MD Helicopters, and she did it to save US jobs and a US brand.

And in doing so, she's worked damned hard to reinstate proper customer support and quality control.

Taking pleasure in MD Helicopters' misfortunes smacks of something small minded and quite unpleasant, IMHO.

As to 'the good old days', did you own a 500 back in 1999, which was the last time that MD was owned by Boeing?

And if Boeing were so blooming committed to the civil helicopter business, why did they plan to sell it to Bell from the very moment that they merged with McDD?

[Ned-Air2Air]

and she did it to save US jobs and a US brand. What a load of crap, you obviously believe all her PR.

And in doing so, she's worked damned hard to reinstate proper customer support and quality control. - Bull$hit she wouldnt know customer support if it bit her in the ass, ask any MD operator. And quality control, now thats a joke. Maybe ask Simon Oliphant Hope why his machine had to go back to the factory for over 80 defects with it recently. And maybe have a chat to Phoenix Police about the state of their last delivery.

And for your info I have been one of MD strongest supporters over the years and in fact we were the first ones to support Tiltons plans to "save" MD, but there is only so much crap you can listen to from the halls of Mesa. You believe all her press releases if you want, I know she does, and we will listen to the feedback from the operators.

Ned

[mfriskel]

Jacko I do have to say that Ned has been one of the strongest MD supporters and was very supportive of Ms Tilton when she took over MD.

Mark

[Ned-Air2Air]

Jackonicko,

Couple of other bits of info for you.

a US brand. wrong - it may have been based in the US of A, but it was owned by Joop who happened to be a Dutchman living in the Netherlands.

Taking pleasure in MD Helicopters' misfortunes smacks of something small minded and quite unpleasant, IMHO. - actually its sad to see the company in stress but its nice to see the crap Tilton has spouted come back to bite her. All this talk about "I will be there til the end" is laughable, especially when she is now in talks to sell it to Boeing.

And if Boeing were so blooming committed to the civil helicopter business, why did they plan to sell it to Bell from the very moment that they merged with McDD? Actually Boeing never wanted the civil side of it and they said so at the start so why be surprised that they want to sell it off. Do they want the civil side now, my guess is NO, but they want it because of the potential for the unmanned little birds that the Army wants. This way they have control over when they get the aircraft they need if they win the contract, which I am sure they will.

Boeing is not a stupid company and they will keep the civil side going if there are orders for the products, if there isnt then they will probably shut it down or sell it off and I was even corresponding with one individual who could be a possible buyer today so there is more than just Boeing interested.

Ned

[Hughes500]

There is no quality control at MD. The machine with 80 defects was a joke, I have pix if anyone is interested !
One of my current customers who has a new machine ( not yet flown it, although it has been in UK for a couple of months ), well it is siting in a hanger as it cant be flown in Europe. The reason no one bothered to certify the Meeker door pins that are now fitted as standard. MD only had a year to sort this out, could they be bothered - no. Fuchs in Switzerland have the same problem with their new machine. Perhaps you could argue that it was Meekers problem, but MD are fitting the pins. Now when you look at the oil cooler assy fitted to the newmachine ( lifed items bearings and belt) we found the following.
The assy had 44.2 hours on it when fitted and had been on 7 different machines. Makes you wonder what else gets missed, to be fair MD said they had got this wrong:uhoh:and sent ovcer new bits
The upshot of these 2 machines have been 3 of my customers voting with their feet and buying an EC120 a 350 and the 3rd a44 in the past 9 months.

Now dont get me wrong they are great helicopters and I had hoped that Tilton woud have put some sensible management in. Obviously not which is a shame but there we go.
Rant over I have got to go and invoice my customer for the use of one of my 500's as his new one cant be flown, suppose there is a silver lining to every cloud !!!

[heli1]

"Verily and I saith unto you I AM the Saviour of the American Helicopter Industry ,even though I strutteth in high heels and pronounceth that all who argue are heathens to be cast into my cauldron.
Yeah the great Bankers shall be cast from my bosom and smothered ,along with the management and the US government that have let me..and the great American worker..down again.
Yet we SHALL arise from the ashes ,even as those who despise us cackle and laugh with hands over mouths ,for I am the great El Tee and all shall tremble before me ..even as does my bosom when I stand before thee.
And they who will not,shall I smite with all my force ..or at least the nearest tail rotor blade I can lay hands on ."

[Hughes500]

heli1 I know it is poetry week on the BBC this week but I think you are taking it too seriously !!!

[GeorgeMandes]

While the plural of anecdote is not data, we took delivery of a 530F last August, and it has been squawk free since we left Mesa. We had a few small issues coming out of completion in Texas, that we noted on the flight to AZ, and the factory folks resolved those before we left for Alaska. All in all, a great delivery experience.

[helispeediii]

hughes/ md /boeing etc great machines ive owned many but all the past owners have been crap at spares back up etc and that includes hughes great fun though when there flying helispeed iii

[diethelm]

Boeing currently has the rights to produce Little Birds for military use. This right was part of the settlement agreement between MD and Boeing from the carry back financing. Boeing does not need MD to use the intellectual property.

When MD was in trouble last time, the expectation was that it would run through a bankruptcy to clean up the balance sheet and supplier relationships. Out of this bankruptcy would be a 363 sale with many bidders to include Carlyle group, Sikorsky and several others. Ms. Tilton, chose to skip the bankruptcy and took on the entire financial responsibility most likely to mitigate the risk of not getting the assets in a Bankruptcy auction. Give her credit for taking the gamble, but it would appear that after stuffing a lot of money into the operations, it has not been able to flourish enough to support the capital structure.

Although they have delivered a few ships, it is unlikely that the market will continue to support pricing of 1.585 million for F models and 1.250 million for E models. I sold mine in April 2008 and hope to buy back at much lower prices.

[mfriskel]

Did your ship go down to Pima County SD?
Mark

[B Sousa]

I have always been a fan of the 500 series, great machines. I dont care who does it, but would not like to see them go away. Not so much of a fan of the ones with big dick on the back end. Some love those, some dont. I do remember one good friend who breathed a sigh of relief when he went with Boeing rather than hanging on to the dead horse.

P.S. If you get into it with Ned, be prepared, hes not going to sugarcoat his opinions.........ha ha

As to George in Homer. I am envious of two things.
1. Homer
2. 530(F)

[ppheli]

LT is in the private equity business. Like all of the operators in that business, her modus operandi is to turn around a company in a 2-5 year timescale and sell it on at a profit. PE companies do not care if they make enemies along the way. To suggest LT is saving US jobs is a joke when we know she instigated the subcontracting of much work to Mexico - to reduce costs, increase profit, and ultimately boost company value ready for onward sale.

[9Aplus]

diethelm
Although they have delivered a few ships, it is unlikely that the market will continue to support pricing of 1.585 million for F models and 1.250 million for E models. I sold mine in April 2008 and hope to buy back at much lower prices.This is what we have received recently......:cool:

"price for the MD Explorer for 2010, including IFR, airco, dual controls, rotor brake, Engine inlet filters, aux fuel tank, is US$6,142,500."
"price for 2010, 500E with C20R, including the Garmin avionic suite is US$1,787,000."

[The Sultan]

All the MD supporters who help block Bell buying the product, have you noted Bell is still number one in product support.

You made the bed....

The Sultan:D

[B Sousa]

Nothing wrong with Bell, I grew up in them. This is about MD and the drain it has been heading down for so long........

Lets see...The Sultan?? Arlington, Tx... Can we guess you have a Dog in this Hunt? :ok:

[diethelm]

Mr. Friskel:

Yes

[mfriskel]

How are they liking it? It has been nearly a year now right? It was a good choice for them for sure.

[southerncanuck]

to all, we are working hard on getting our door kit approved by easa. it has been a struggle as we have to work backwards on an old stc. hence the data package has to be re-written to suit easa. re-working an old 1999 era existing stc is more difficult than making a new one, something we have never had to do.
fortunately we have had great support on both sides of the pond from faa and easa, but as anyone who has an faa or easa stc and submits for recognition by another aviation authority, its a challenge
thanks
cal

[Hughes500]

southerncanuck

You may be working hard on the door kit, but it doesnt take the brains of an archbishop to work out that you need to get it certified before selling into EASA land !!!!!!! Begs the question what else gets missed. The particular machine with this problem and the one with over 80 skin faults has caused 3 customers to my knowledge to buy/ order other manufactures machines. How do they get out the factory, in fact a better question would be how does it get into the factory ?
Dont get me wrong I love the product but these incidents don t help and gives all your detractors ammunition.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Hughes500 - I know Cal, he is a good guy, and he has his own company, he doesnt work for MD. He is a supplier to them, so bottom line the issue in question is with the factory and MD, not with Cal. If MD made the decision to deliver machines to Europe without the door hinges being EASA approved then thats their fault.

Ned

[widgeon]

I worked with Cal and he always completes. That being said I am not sure why MD as the Type certificate holder would need STC approval . To the best of my knowledge all Eurocopter optional equipment kits ( the ones that are covered by SB's and EC Flight Manual Suplements )are approved under the TC not by STC . You will not see an STC for the Eurocopter cargo sling and swing for example.

[southerncanuck]

to all, we deliver the kits, as an stc to md, as we would to any customer and have for years. it was our understanding that md would add to the tc. as we know, it was not and md asked us to get our stc recognized asap. normally that procedure is not a major undertaking, we hold various easa stc's, that were faa stc's, recognized by easa.
that said the door kit stc was a much older format, that easa would not accept "as is". therefore we have had to go back revise the stc, re submit to the faa, who then fwds the revision on to easa for review, who then asks for corrections, then we re submit the corrections on yet another revision, then back to faa, then on to easa. you get the idea and this is exactly where we are today, working fast as possible on another and hopefully the final revision.
cal

[GeorgeMandes]

Given how good our delivery experience was with a 530F last August, I would be interested in some detail about the 80 defects in this new helicopter. Who completed the ship, who accepted the helicopter, when were the faults discovered, and what is MD doing to resolve these issues?

[160thfan]

I would really like to hear that too.
Thanks

[500e]

The photos would make you cry.:{
How the hull got out of the build shop is beyond me, how it got fitted out is beyond belief, then painted & shipped where were the QA people at every stage of production, there was a lack of oversight that beggared belief, (P45 forms, or US equivalent for all including department heads involved)
I would like to know if Ms T had heard, been told about this problem & if so what she did.
I can say we E mailed her personally about a problem & there was an immediate response to our query, which until then had not been addressed with any seriousness.

[Ned-Air2Air]

But dont expect a reply to anything for the next week, seems like for the next seven days the plant is all closed down and staff have been told to take time off without pay. :ok::ok:

Spoke to a couple of folks there today and bit pissed off having to use up their holiday allotments for this "forced" week off. :D:D

[GeorgeMandes]

Can you provide more detail as to exactly what the 80 faults were? Who completed the helicopter? Who accepted the helicopter? When were the squawks noted?

[Hughes500]

southercanuck you have my sincere apologies, I had quite wrongly assumed that you were speaking on behalf of MD. I hope i caused no offence.:O

[500e]

Hughes 500 did you get email ok

[southerncanuck]

hughes500, no offence taken. we feel your pain. its a drain on everyone, especially those waiting for aircraft to be "signed off" in europe and put into service.
its frustrating for us, md and the faa as well, going back to square 1 on an already approved product.
that said, everyone at faa, easa and md is 100% supportive. most important, when the revisions hit the desk of both faa and easa, the turn times are 1-2 days, cannot complain with that type of respone, in any industry.
currently we are working through some revisions now, then on to faa, who forwards it on to easa.
cal

[widgeon]

Cal I only wish that TC were as responsive in Canada.

[southerncanuck]

widgeon, in all fairness to TC, once again, we have been fortunate, all our projects have been accepted / recognized in short order.
if i had one complaint with any process it would be to streamline the PSCP for new stc applications. it works in theory, but the execution is slow.

[Black Fly]

I too have written to Ms. Tilton. The response was immediate and the resolution satisfactory.

[Ned-Air2Air]

To those that might have some issues, here are some emails to help you get it into the right hands - working from the top down :ok:

Lynn Tilton - [email protected]

Craig Kitchen (Chief Operating Officer) [email protected]

Tim Ruddick (Head of Customer Support) [email protected]

Was going to put the email address of their Quality Control person but didnt think that would be any point :E:E

Hope these help.

[Jackonicko]

Ned,

"crap" and "Bull$hit", eh?

Is that what passes for witty repartee among your circle, Ned?

Or is that an example of 'quality journalism'?

It's not a matter of 'believing press releases', it's one of discerning fundamental, underlying truth, rather than resorting to the easy option of dim-witted and unoriginal journalistic cynicism.

And I speak as a dim-witted journalist, so I'm aware of the temptation.

While the Tilton 'schtick' is quite strong (and distracting), I do believe that underlying it is the fact that she is entirely and genuinely sincere about American brands and American jobs. I think that her wider history demonstrates that. If she wasn't serious, MDH would have been easy enough to asset strip and move on from.

And despite the brief interval during which MDH was Dutch-owned, it is a quintessentially and deliberately American brand.

While airframe production has gone 'south of the border' moving it has saved the company - including hundreds of jobs. (And exporting basic airframe construction to low labour cost countries is hardly anything new in the helicopter industry, as Sikorsky and AgustaWestland have shown).

No-one would claim that MD Helicopters has not had its problems with both quality control and customer support (nor even that the company does not still have a long and difficult road to travel), but to deny that Tilton has made it a real priority to address these areas is both fundamentally unfair and inaccurate.

"She's worked damned hard to reinstate proper customer support and quality control..." as I said, and she is on the road towards achieving it.

Even on this thread, there's some indication that things are changing, and that things are on an upward trajectory - albeit a shallow one.

In my view, most of Tilton's critics are guilty of small-minded resentment, and display an old fashioned envy of successful women.

Tilton is twice the man than most of her detractors are, and has bigger balls than they'll ever have. And she's done more for the US working man than any blasted journalist.

Why are so many journos only really happy when they're tearing something down, I wonder? Envy of those who actually 'do' among those who merely prattle?

Perhaps you should stick to taking beautiful pictures, Ned

[Bertie Thruster]

Nice one, Jacko :ok:

[Ned-Air2Air]

Whatever you say Jackonicko, :D:D

I will base my opinions on what I know from behind the scenes and what I hear from those who operate the product.

You continue to wave the flag for Lynn Tilton.

[9Aplus]

:ok:

:D

nice approach

[Jackonicko]

We can all talk to malcontents, Ned.

The secret is to look more broadly, talk to a wider range of people (including those who don't have an axe to grind) and take a wider view.

It might not make for such exciting headlines, and it may not suit the classic antipodean 'only happy when he's whingeing' temperament, but it makes for better and more accurate journalism.

Congratulations on the 'flag waving' comment. It doesn't warrant a serious response, so I'll stoop to the kind of snide insinuation that you seem to like: Did Lynn turn down a request for an interview, or for an air-to-air sortie?

You clearly have a great deal of regard for your journalistic capabilities, and very little for mine. That's fine. I'll keep my views of them to myself.

[500e]

I think he works for Bell :E:E

[Ned-Air2Air]

Jacko - First off who said I was talking just to malcontents. I have spoken to a lot of operators who have both good and bad things to say about MD, some from the very good to some you would never want to read about, and you would be surprised how many of these there are and some of the horror stories I have heard. George got on here and posted that he had a good experience with MD so good on him, if there are more out there who have had good experiences with MD then post away, would love to see them.

Interesting comment about the Antipodean temperament, quite wrong though actually. Aussies and Kiwis dont actually whine about things, we actually just dig in and get things done. I think you are actually referring to people in your neck of the woods.

With regards to the flag waving comment I think you need to develop a harder skin. You stand up and proclaim that Lynn Tilton is doing all these wonderful things for the American people, well why dont you go and have a chat to all those that have been told that they HAVE to take this week off with no pay and they have no choice. And if Tilton is doing such amazing things with MD then why is she trying to flog it off to Boeing at the moment. And No we havent been turned down for an air to air sortie with MD or an interview. In fact we couldnt be bothered. Would rather go and work with the operators on the coal face instead of listening to all the media hype and getting given a glossy 8 x 10 photo of her half naked with the American flag draped all over her - yep real classy for the CEO of a true american icon.

Not sure where I said I have little regard for your journalistic capabilities. For one I dont even know who you are, or who you work for, so bit hard to have an opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, you posted yours on the forum and likewise so did I. And with regards to my post its my opinion, nothing more, nothing less - has nothing to do with my journalistic capabilities, which by the way I am not that great at, which is why I have an editor and contributors writing for the magazine. Me - I stick to doing what I enjoy - taking photos.

500E - No I dont work for Bell - wrong.

[212man]

Aussies and Kiwis dont actually whine about things

Bugger - I just sprayed coffee over my keyboard.....

[imabell]

glass of red on mine, up em for the rent ned.

[Black Fly]

Did Lynn turn down a request for an interview, or for an air-to-air sortie?

In all fairness, I rather think it is round the other way Jackonicko. My friends at MD tell me that Ned-Air2Air has repeatedly turned down MD offers of a MD sponsored air-to-air photo shoot. Pity actually. I think Ned is the best in the business at helicopter air-to-air photography and would very much enjoy seeing some great MD photographs in and around the lovely desert of Arizona.

Only Ned can tell if what I have heard is true and why, if indeed true, he would make that decision.

I don't agree with Ned's opinions about MD as my experience has been contrary. Nor do I find Ms Tilton's photograph offensive.

[Ned-Air2Air]

212 man - No $hit from you Bro :ok:

BlackFly - Thanks for the comments about the pics, we always try to shoot the best we can and look for something different in each shoot we do. I think good pics help illustrate a story well and in some cases tell their own stories.

My personal pref is its much more fun and realistic to get out in the field with the operators and shoot their helos working and doing real work, not just scenic shoots around the factory or local area. But thats just what I like.

Re your experiences with MD, great that you have been treated well by them, am not saying everyone has had the short stick, just some that have been highlighted. I will scan in the pic of Ms Tilton that was being handed out and post it here for posters to enjoy.

Ned


http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/EPSON004.jpg?t=1243312383

[9Aplus]

This pic is nice....:D

Must consider to buy MD....:ok:

In marketing one of first rules is to attract potential customers.
If you consider about this pic like wrong way you are just to conservative.

[heli1]

Must say that picture is a lot more conservative than she sometimes appears in the flesh !

[Ned-Air2Air]

Heli1 - You got that right. You ever see the photos of her straddling the tailboom of a 600/902 wearing low cut top :eek:

[500e]

Dress or flesh as long as the AOG times are coming down do I care.

[heli1]

Ned-air Two.......See the pictures strddling the boom...Nah... I was too busy adjusting my thruster !

[Ian Corrigible]

Ned - The MD902 tailboom photo was especially notable since it was on the back of a business card. :ooh:

Jacko - One of the downsides to the industry's magazines opening themselves up to a wider audience seems to have been that the standards of reporting and analysis have fallen dramatically when compared to the 1960s, '70s and '80s. This is perhaps not so much the case w.r.t. the publications to which you principally contribute (which retain a more 'serious' mil target audience), but most of the 'newsagent' mags seem willing to print whatever PR departments give them, without checking the facts or researching the backstory. I don't know whether this is due to publications not wishing to upset potential advertisers or whether it's due to the average experience levels of journos falling, but it's been very noticeable, even in 'reputable' mags such as [I]Flight. As a result we see baseless claims being made about program schedules/costs, product technologies and company forecasts (and I'm not just thinking about MDHI here), contributing to the 'accepted' norm of most program targets being missed, with any editor brave enough to question what they're told being burned at the stake (q.v. JTM). This is not meant as a slam on journos on general - I have many good friends in the field (even including that whingeing antipodean Ned :E) - but I miss the journalistic standards of old.

I/C

[diethelm]

It took a huge appetite for risk when Patriarch take over MD without running it through a bankruptcy to fix its capital structure. I know this because I looked at the asset, would have been a bidder on the asset or teamed up with others to bid on the asset. Give the entire Patriarch team credit for stepping up as there is no way I could figure out how to make money on the investment in the way they structured the deal.

At the end of the day, it is a good product with good uses. It is easy to maintain and is monumentally simpler than most other helicopters with similar performance capabilities. There are plenty of PMA parts, repairs and the model 250 is easily maintained by multiple shops both authorized and independent.

Patriarch has a history of buying troubled assets and working to turn them around. They are not afraid to put an asset in bankruptcy if necessary subsequent to purchase. Patriarch bought American La France from Freightliner and roughly two years later put it into bankruptcy.

So we can all speculate as much as we want but a few things are certain.

1) MD or whatever it will be called will be around for a long time. Assuming it is having some financial stress, and we have no actual knowledge that it is or is not, it has several options to include additional capital from its parent, bankruptcy restructuring, additional partner investment or even a sale.

2) People will continue to whine, yes we whine in America, about which is better product and who has better support.

3) Absent someone posting the financials, we have no real idea what is going on.

Lastly, let me comment on Ned from personal experience. In the dark days of MD, I was involved in the rebuilding a 530 and were short one part to finish. Ned got the part when no one else could. He got it by going to Patriarch directly. My experience with Ned is that he knows just about everyone and is willing to help without compensation. A rare characteristic.

[EN48]

scan in the pic of Ms Tilton that was being handed out


Nice pic, but appears to have been taken many years ago - sure doesnt look like the LT in person at Heli Expo.

[Ned-Air2Air]

EN48 - Actually it was one of the set of four that were being handed out at HeliExpo and was shot at the same time as the others, so yep same person.

Amazing what photoshop can do :}

[Mark Six]

Jackonicko - I didn't see that one coming. One minute we're talking about MD Helicopters, next thing you have managed to gratuitously insult 25 million people with your unsubstantiated and irrelevant generalisation - "... the classic antipodean 'only happy when he's whingeing' temperament...". I find it somewhat bizarre that in the same sentence you mention "...better and more accurate journalism..."

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Yup id agree with Mark Six on this one, that comment did nothing for your argument Jackonicko.

And off the top of your head name one other helicopter manufacturers CEO?

If nothing else she's raised the profile of the company. When you say MD helicopters now everyone thinks "Lynn in leather pants" and not just "company with no idea"!
(Although alot of people think both)

[southerncanuck]

to all: received our easa certification for the md 500/520 and 600 rapid release door kit.
let us know if you need a copy
thanks for your patience
cal

[wright123]

Re Neds post #47 and the pic of Lynn which were handed out, anybody got the other pics of Lynn straddling the Exploder tail boom.

Whats happening in MD since they lost the US military contract?

[500e]

Shame there is so much personal comment, := , as said before don't care about LT as long as things get better, I did have course as previously posted to email the lady & the response was instant, up till that time we felt we were getting the run around, coincidence may be but perhaps not, we had the answers in hours.
The problems with AOG spares have improved by leaps & bounds.
Some people do not like the 600 perhaps they should have looked at mission role closer, could it be it was not the platform for them

[Hell Man]

In '99 when the 500, 600 and 900 lines were sold off from Boeing/MD I was involved in a number of meetings with the new MD Helicopter Holdings management in which strategy was discussed.

I said at the time that their biggest risk was of becoming a one product firm and which is exactly what they have become and even that, the 900 series, will soon require modernization.

500 spares will keep them turning over but recent ownership while busy doing a lot of 'stuff' has resolved nothing in terms of securing any realistic hope for the company's future.

The killer, really, was carving up the company and from which I just dont expect MDH to ultimately survive. Would love to be wrong though!

HM

[Coconutty]

So where's the Tail Boom pic ?

Couldn't find it anywhere, but Googling "Lynn-Tilton-XMAS-Card"
brings up a couple of interesting results ;)

.... and after all ..... it will soon be Christmas :ok:

http://postandcourier.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2008/08/22/tilton_t600.jpg?4326734cdb8e39baa3579048ef63ad7b451e7676

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[wright123]

In Coco's pic - Is that the cyclic she's got hold of there :E

[Coconutty]

No - Not the cyclic, just a doomed Military project :rolleyes:

I was going to post the actual XMas card from when she was a mere salesgirl back in the late '80's,
and didn't because I think that might have breached copywrite somewhere,
but if you click the link so skillfully located by the good Earl, you will get the idea !

I doubt there will be too many Christmas cards or bonuses from MD this year -
What's the real story behind the production line closing ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[props stopped]

Could the other MD shareholders story be part of the problem?

The Dutch are looking closely at the RDM firm and their associates or whatever they are calling themselves these days?

Somebody got a huge bonus here. Got this in an email today, makes interesting reading! :eek:

CorpWatch : Pinochet's Dutch Secret (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13937)

[EN48]

IMHO, Coconutty's pix of LT is one of the most appealing I have seen of her. Just mildy provocative, not the cheap hooker look she usually exhibits. Leaves much to the imagination, which is good unless one has a perfect body. Like many women, LT can be quite attractive when dressed approproiately (not in the show-it-all style we are accustomed to seeing). No amont of skin will earn my respect. Leading MD to a roaring success would surely do so.:ok:

[wright123]

Thanks to my fellow ppruner for sending me the LT pic but I dont know how to attach it? Its an age thing I know, nearly pension time for me :oh:

On a more serious note, I read this and wonder if the Dutch Police contract was really cancelled because of weight issues on the Explorer, when the Police investigation into RDM was going on over there!
There may be further questions by the british authorities after this has all come out! Jail time for one man behind RDM/Elite and their operations! :=

CorpWatch : CorpWatch Bribery Report Helps Spark Dutch Inquiry (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15428)

DutchNews.nl - Controversial Dutch businessman arrested (http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2007/10/controversial_dutch_businessma.php)

[wright123]

Best card I've seen, batteries not included ;)

http://sjdrimages.com/Mb/UserUploads/d28Kb44AAu0W45.jpg

[EN48]

Wow! Talk about symbolism! :E A shrink would have a field day with LT!

[Hell Man]

I don't think it takes a shrink to figure where she's comin from. If she were my daughter I'd hold her under a cold shower while I explained a little about what it means to have some self respect.

Re: the photo - it would suit a caption contest!

HM

[props stopped]

Captions for the LT photo;

I bet the other MD shareholder Joep said,

' Here lass, hang on to this while I'm in the clink' :}

or could it be;

'Every extra inch in that tail boom counts' :E

[Epiphany]

I know nothing about MD helicopters but did anyone actually take this woman seriously?

[Hell Man]

I think that was part of the problem, the fact that people did take her seriously.

To be fair to the old girl she's fallen victim to that most unforgiving of industries which, if you don't know exactly what you are doing, will turn around and bite you in the ass - and there are a few sore asses around as living proof.

Seasoned US investor Warren Buffet (owner of NetJets) has many a time warned investors to "stay the hell away from aviation" unless they have experienced (aviation) management teams to support them.

HM

[Ned-Air2Air]

One of the BIG problems with Tilton is that she turned the MD management offices into a revolving door. I can count five different CEOs in a few seconds. She would always come up with some reason for firing higher up management when they didnt do EXACTLY what SHE wanted, and these were people who spent a lifetime in the helicopter industry.

When you try and micro manage the experts you have put in there to do the job then they have no choice but to leave. And besides if you talk to her she knows everything about everything so they are on a hiding to nothing anyway.

[Epiphany]

She wouldn't be from the Middle East school of Aviation management would she?

[PANews]

Lynx

Just pop upstairs and check there is no horses head in your bed......:E

[Notar fan]

That boy has an agenda.... :suspect::

[lynx no more]

Been called a few things in the army, but never a reporter!

No agenda here, just think the pilots and engineers who work for the dutchman should know whats been going on abroad and who is in charge. It all seems well known in other countries, but not by the PAS line pilots in the UK?

If I was a reporter I would have been printing it all Notar, not telling the UK pilots, now would I...... think about it :ugh:

As I said before dont slot the messenger...end of message.

[diethelm]

Still like the product and give her credit for having the stones to take on the project. With respect to the pictures, those of us who live in glass houses....

[Thomas coupling]

diethelm: why?
LT is a banker (with a B);) and her sole purpose during this evolution was to asset strip the company and make a killing. It's stuck in a rut and she's struggling to turn it round. That's why she's now trying to offload it quickly to any buyer for any price.
Don't for one millisecond believe the temptress is actually interested in helicopters :rolleyes:
Life's a bitch......and then you work for one:eek:

[spinwing]

Mmmm ...

....... Life's a bitch......and then you work for one ....

I like that ... very catchy .... :ok:

[props stopped]

I wonder if she'll include that line in her latest card, cant wait for this years outfit :E

[diethelm]

Coupling:

I don't know her, never met her but I am in the same business as she is. If she simply wanted to strip it, she would have never put the money in without first running it through a chapter 11. In that scenario, the prior owners would have been much more marginalized, the past debt wiped out and the assets acquired at a fraction of the cost (think GM). That is what I would have done and was clearly the plan of all other interested parties.

My bet is that she thought she could make a killing without financially re-structuring it through BK but the capital structure she inherited, combined with what would objectively appear to be a lack of consistent competent management, has at best made it a bad deal. The structure of her deal made it clear from the beginning that she had to be in it for the long haul. The basis of her transaction made it impossible to simply "asset strip the company and make a killing."

I don't know if she is now trying to sell it or not but if she was out to make a quick buck, she would not still own it 5.5 years and 100 mil after her July 2005 acquisition.

You are correct in the fact that it is stuck in a rut and has not gotten any better since the Patriarch ownership, but all the rest of us who had interest, certainly would have been much tougher with respect to the terms of the original purchase. Absent a miracle of orders and good management, history will most likely show her assumptions were wrong, but she committed when the rest of the interested parties said no thanks on those terms.

Still love the product, and would love to see it thrive as with volume and great management, it could clearly be manufactured and supported at much lower costs.

[Thomas coupling]

The 902 is doomed. Its the illigitimate child of two uncaring parents: LT and Joep. It's part built all over the place and brought together somewhere else. There is a disconnect between the OEM and EASA QA. Parts are forever slipping through the airworthiness checks and measures (paperwork not quality). The beast itself is nothing revolutionary. Hiding the fan at the back inside the tail cone has in fact reduced its aerodynamic performance and increased its payload. It's still exposed to the idiosyncracies of the dreaded TR failure - so what was the point. [Unless of course you use the monotonous argument that it's safer to operate around in a confined space because the spinner is missing].
I for one actually see it now as looking tired and awkward. The 70's ergonomics in the cockpit layout (metalwork, not avionics), the busy rotor head, the agricutural body work.

Everything's against it. How many left in the UK now? Any future development? Any customers? Doomed, I say...they're all doomed Captain.

[PANews]

TC

It may be doomed but the UK EMS customer base still 'love' it and it is the next best thing to a BK117 without putting up with the [poor & ancient] maintenance requirements of the BK. And the high set tail rotor [and Fenestron to come?] negates the supposed advantage of Notar in that quarter.

The 902 is limping, but like many 'physically disadvantaged' objects [and humans] it remains endearing to [some of] its operators.

I guess it will be a long time in its death throes but the numbers will dwindle. It is unfortunately getting a bit like a Brantly B2... niche market ... and although she/they have improved some support aspects LT does not seem to have turned the corner relating to the types overall acceptability to a wider market. Meanwhile every day that passes without development of the basic airframe places the future closer to nil.

This seems not to be a wholly 902 issue, a view of the US police market would tend to suggest the demise of the 500/600 and 520 as well - subject to the possible fillip to be offered by the recent order for Little Birds from Saudi. That assumes that MD will even get the basic airframe order from Boeing.

The 'hot seller' 500 series is again losing out heavily to the 350 in the US police market. Most cite the old story of 'support' .... and that is in the face of supposed dire EC support!

[Bertie Thruster]

It's true. It's true; I love it! and I love her for having loved it!

[DeltaNg]

Trinity House have got one on their lighthouse contract, so there's a customer. I wonder how it's doing...

[winchman]

Absolute top notch machine..... Its the pilot's friend, it's just brilliant!!!!! One switch to turn it on and off, a torque meter that stops at 100% instead of some random figure and an instrument panel that dosen't tell you anything unless it gets concerned, just perfect.

As for landing site selection the NOTAR comes up thrumps every time. I'd have nightmares thinking about flying a machine with a tail rotor again.

[helihub]

How many left in the UK now?

Thomas Coupling... This report (http://www.helihub.com/2010/01/26/helihub-com-data-analysis-%E2%80%93-md-explorer-fleet-report/) dated January 2010 noted a global fleet of 111 operational of which 23 were in the UK. Obviously the figures are always moving, but production rates are slower than the R66... At the time only 17 were operating in the US.

Winchman - if it's a "top notch machine", why have Eurocopter just completed the 900th EC135, aimed roughly at the same markets. Is it just the revolving door that Ned refers to, or are there more things to point at, like pricing and product support, for example?

DeltaNg - no, Trinity House have NOT got theirs yet, it's not even registered with the CAA. Look out for G-COTH, previously an air ambulance in Saudi with the reg N3ND, and one time operated by Suffolk County Police, NY State.

[DeltaNg]

Oh dear, the EB's at Trinity will be most upset. The contract started last week :confused:

I think the numbers talk in terms of success. 900 vs 111 clearly tells you something.

[PANews]

The Trinity House contract was undertaken with another spare airframe but that super plan reportedly got a bit sticky when the brand new Lincs & Notts AA went sick.

Not sure what airframe is being used to service Trinity House but the dearth of these machines suggests that the old G-LNAA [due for a rebuild] may have been the one and of course having the previous owners rapping on the door asking for their old machine back because the new one was ill must have been at best embarassing just as the new contract commenced.

If even half of this rumour level information is true that cannot help along the cause of the 902 despite all the praise being heaped on this hapless aircraft in this thread. It works fine when it works but it seems it just isn't fit for purpose thanks to low numbers and inadequate back up resources [airframes and spares].

Hapless? Well the aircraft said to be due for use [eventually!] with the TH contract was in turn rejected by Suffolk County and [by Action Aviation default] the Saudi EMS [and others] ...... :ooh:

[Flaxton Flyer]

Helihub - Winchman is correct, it is a top-notch machine...from a piloting and paramedic viewpoint. Unfortunately the support etc is beyond our control.

And bear in mind that in spite of that lack of support, the West Yorkshire Police 902 has amassed over 12,600 flying hours, the Humberside machine 10,000+.

Even without proper support and development it leaves the 135 trailing as an emergency services machine, especially in the HEMS world.

Oh...IMHO of course :)

[heli1]

I read in HeliData News last weeek that the ex Action Aviation MD902 (now G-COTH) is indeed the Trinity machine.Apparently it arrived at Staverton at beginning of November.Currently PAS is training the crew and the aircraft should deploy this month.
The story goes on to say that the Bo105 previously used is already retired and allocated to the South Georgia Heritage Trust.

[seniortrooper]

Flaxton: how many patients can a 902 take at any one time?

[PANews]

Flaxton

Regardless of the 902s clear merits I think it is a bit rich to even suggest that the EC135 is an 'also ran' in the emergency services arena .... even the EC145 has far outsold the 902 and most sales are into utility/police/EMS. Executive sales tend to go towards the AgustaWestland camp. And the 109 has also outsold the 902.

The EC sales figures [based on [B]paying CUSTOMER decision] are 10 to 1 against.

[helihub]

Heli1 - you may have thought you read that in HeliData news, but I think you'll find you actually wrote it!! And the ex Action ex Suffolk County etc machine is not "now G-COTH" as it's still not yet registered as such - you can check at the CAA's G-INFO page (http://www.caa.co.uk/ginfo)

The old Trinity House 105 is not just "allocated", but SOLD to South Georgia Heritage Trust along with another, a spares package and a 1000 hour component guarantee, as I wrote here (http://www.helihub.com/2010/12/02/charity-buys-two-bo105s-for-rat-eradication-on-remote-island/).

[Ian Corrigible]

helihub - In this (http://www.mdhelicopters.com/news/pdf/102610.pdf) release from October, MD claimed it was supporting "more than 130" Explorers worldwide. Never did understand the math behind this claim, given the number of aircraft retired/destroyed.

N3ND, last seen here (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/397874-ems-saudi-arabia-5.html#post6037368), was recently confirmed by 'cliom' at Scramble as having arrived at Staverton.

I/C

[Bertie Thruster]

No sickness I'm happy to say. Just i (dotting) and t (crossing).

The 902. You either get it or you just don't. It's a love thing.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/nmhsu/december6thcherryvalleypicbyartona.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/nmhsu/100_2616.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/nmhsu/100_2656.jpg

[Flaxton Flyer]

Seniortrooper -depends on how many crew you have on board. One on the stretcher and two walking wounded unless you have an extra crewman / doctor / medical observer / cameraperson etc etc.

PANEWS - the 135 is a fine machine no doubt. Just happens to be second best, no shame in that, surely.

Bottom line is - if the beancounters choose your HEMS machine, you'll get an EC135. Put the pilots in charge, and the future at MD would be very rosy indeed.:ok:

109 outselling the 902...I would hope it has outsold the 902, given that it's been around since the year dot. However, how many fingers do you need to count the number of 109s flying HEMS/ Police in the UK?

Let's just say that if you have any soul, you'd want to leave the school dance with the 902. You'd still be happy enough to take the 135 home, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you with her...

[heli1]

Does anybody else understand HeliHubs last weird comment.I can't write...I'm a pilot!

Neither do I work for Shephard but I do visit Staverton quite frequently .

Anyway back to the thread. I agree with those who compare the MD902 and EC135 to Girl Friends but which is the Essex Girl?! I think the EC135 has the looks but the MD902 is a beaut to fly.Cant comment on the relevant intelligence levels though !

[mfriskel]

seniortrooper- as with any helicopter, it depends on kitting.
The EMS fit in U85, the machine that did the proof-of-concept in Qatar was capable of carrying two litter patients. We had the normal set-up of one litter on the APLS, and a 2nd litter that has approved restraints for the floor. Both of these litters have decent medical access when installed together. On one HEMS flight we carried 4 patients. Two were carried in seats as the paramedic could not leave them due to administering pain meds. Two were litter patients. The terrain was not conducive to ground transport and local rules did not allow a return flight to pick up patients due to darkness.
To answer your question- 2.

I view the Explorer as the ideal EMS machine. You can operate it the same in winter or summer- no downloading fuel when it get's hot out. Great OEI performance, great access room in the rear for medical folks. Very pilot friendly machine. If I had my choice, that is the machine I would be flying.
The only things holding the Explorer back are the McDonnel Douglas sale to Boeing, Boeing stopping production pending sale, RDM giving new life via MDHI and getting several out in the fleet as well as making some really nice improvements- RDM -MDHI going belly-up and support and production again stopping, Patriarch - MD making the machine cost prohibitive to purchase and then completing the company turn-around at 360 degrees instead of 180 degrees.
Fantastic machine but is constantly held back by the company that produces it. The fuel range is a drawback too, but when placed against the competition it is a wash. Other machines have to download fuel to carry the mission weight and the 902 always carries full tanks.
The guys bitching about the NOTAR vs the tail-rotor have to re-think their opinions also. The NOTAR on the Explorer doesn't like a right quartering tail-wind at high weights or DAs- show me a tail-rotor machine that does! Put the wind off the nose or quartering head-wind and it sits all day- just like a tail-rotor machine. I don't think you see many folks doing long-line or hoist work in a tail rotor ship with an un-favorable wind either.
On another note, if it was such a poor machine- why does/did EC spend so much time bad-mouthing it to customers and constantly spreading dis-infomation about the NOTAR system and the Explorer in particular. I do know this has happened around the world. I worked for MD and travelled the world performing training and demos. I got to hear all the things EUROCOPTER (marketing folks) told custoemrs about the Explorer and the NOTAR system. You only spread that kind of dis-information if you are worried. Again, if it is such a poor machine, why did they worry so much. Why did they design a "new" rotor system that is a carbon-copy of the MD900 main rotor? I could go on------

[RVDT]

mrfriskel,

No doubt all of your statements are correct but as you know for all the right reasons the thing doesn't sell because it can't. They have cornered all the right reasons to not sell the aircraft.

So who is going to keep up the license fees to EC for the Notar Fan design?

The thing is the Edsel of Aviation. As a car the Edsel wasn't bad either.

Edsel and its failures
Historians have advanced several theories in an effort to explain the Edsel's failure. Popular culture often faults the car’s styling. Consumer Reports has alleged that poor workmanship was the Edsel's chief problem. Marketing experts hold the Edsel up as a supreme example of the corporate culture’s failure to understand American consumers. Business analysts cite the weak internal support for the product inside Ford’s executive offices. According to author and Edsel scholar Jan Deutsch, the Edsel was "the wrong car at the wrong time."
"The aim was right, but the target moved"


Substitute as appropriate.

[Bertie Thruster]

Mark has seen the love. RVDT hasn't.

Great collection of photos on your website gallery, Mark.

[mfriskel]

You are correct- it is not selling because it can't. No changing that. I am just supporting the acft is not the fault. It is a very fine acft, and I personally belive one of the best designes for it's weight class. I have often wondered if Howard Hughes put a curse on the company when he left! Every time the product line gets headed the right direction there is a new road-block. Usually that roadblock is in the form of company capital either not being available or being used in the wrong places.
Anyway- my point is it is not the machine, it is the people behind the machine and behind the scenes.





Thanks BT

[diethelm]

But another thought,

Run the company through a bankruptcy, recapitalize it appropriately. Drop the 520n, 600n, keep the 902 as well as the E using the new RR500 and the F models with a C30R3.

To compete with Robinson and the R66, start the C model back up.

Re-invigorate the spares business raising volumes and lowering pricing and costs with a drive to increase hours flown.

Sell to larger player once fixed.

Buy another company, repeat process, retire at 72 or maybe 76 if things keep going as they are with respect to retirement plans in the world.

[mfriskel]

Why the RR500?

[props stopped]

Notar or not to notar, after looking at the parent companies of the 3 light helicopter makers, I found the following;

1. The EADS eurocopter company made 43.3 billion euro's in 2008 according to Eurcopter's website, and EADS employ a workforce of 118,000 people. They appear to be concentrating on building aircraft, and not buying and selling companies to make a buck.

2. MD seem to be a smaller setup and I think they now produce a couple of airframes. The MD company partners LT and Joep seem to specialise in buying and selling distressed companies (trucks, make up kits, tassles, tanks etc) and then closing them after a few years such as RDM?

3. AugustaWestland appear to be a very large Anglo Italian company with large revenues and military contracts in both countries. The partnership has been running for 20 years according to their website with large order books for various arframes.

If I was an ambulance charity, police force, or a rich individual who was about to purchase a new multi million pound helicopter I would be looking closely at the support network of the helicopter manufacturer, and especially at the people who are behind the brand name, which may have changed hands a few times over 10 years?

Its the same if you were buying a car, if you werent sure of the parts network for a car in future years, you probably wouldnt buy the car would you?

I've flown in all 3 a/c 902, 135 and 109, and the 109 was the fastest and most modern cab from a drivers point of view, the 135 was the least smooth but is a modern cockpit, and the 902 seems to have more room in the back compared to the other 2.

That said, the EADS and AugustaWestland companies appear to be in it for the long run and concentrate of manufacturing aircraft, but I'm not so sure about MD and what LT and Joep have in mind? :hmm:

[wallsend]

For Thomas Coupling, re your rant that goes from "The 902 is doomed." to "...they're all doomed Captain." How many hours have you got on the '902?

[md 600 driver]

lets have bets

i say less than 1 hour

[wallsend]

How cynical! TC's authoritive style led me to imagine he was a TRI/TRE on type!

[Bertie Thruster]

If I was an ambulance charity, police force, or a rich indicidual who was about to purchase a new multi million pound helicopter

Then why not lease?

and the 902 seems to have more room in the back compared to the other 2.

Handy in an ambulance!



B Thruster aka NotaLuvver!

[TeeS]

'NotaLuvver'?

Was that name given to you by a girlfriend Bertie? :D

TeeS

[Bertie Thruster]

girlfriend?

[Ian Corrigible]

and the 902 seems to have more room in the back compared to the other 2.

'Course, for the price of a MD902 these days you could also buy a B429 or EC145, with even more room in the back. As Mark already mentioned, the new owners have hiked prices in order to try and squeeze cashflow out of the business (similar to what Schweizer has experienced).

using the new RR500

Unlikely to be popular with many MD500 operators, since it would preclude use of PMA spares.

I/C

[Bertie Thruster]

EC145, with even more room in the back

One of our visiting Docs says he finds our 902 easier to work in than the 117. Something to do with bulkheads.

[props stopped]

Re bertie Thrusters leasing option,

I believe various air ambulance charities are now catching on to how expensive the leasing option can be.

Look at what the GNAA charity say in the the press.- It makes more sense to buy helicopters and have something to show for the money, instead of leasing a/c and having nothing to show for it at the end of the lease.

How much are MD902's since the MD price rise which was mentioned above?

Are MD still thinking about moving production or has LT got other plans?

[seniortrooper]

That's why they call it the notar.
When most professional companies were asked if they would like to operate the 902, they unanimously said: notar :D

[props stopped]

seniortrooper,
A gudun :D

[wallsend]

Not what I heard from a very senior redtop man a few years ago. The training staff all wanted 902 but the exchange rate at the time made it too expensive. So they went for the 135.

As an aside, I spent the greater part of a day last week waiting for a 135 to be released following what was meant to be a short scheduled service at a police unit. The aircraft went off at 0900 and wasn't released until 1700! One problem according to the engineer (very respected by me and others there) was the nightmare paperwork provided.

I have lost count how many times I've experienced this with the 135 (earlier this year the adjacent 135 unit lost theirs for 5 WEEKS! Strangely not reported on pprune or by PAN News:rolleyes:)

I am current on both types and have in excess of 1500 hrs 135 and 1000 hrs 902, and by my personal experience the 902 is, on balance, the better aircraft. I like flying the 135 a lot but I am regularly mystified by the absolutely virulently negative attitude some peolple have towards the 902. The only thing they seem have in common is that they aren't type rated on it. (it can't, of course, because some have a vested interest in pushing Eurocopter products...oh no:rolleyes:)

Also, when when people trumpet the industrial might of Eurocopter or AG, why can I hear the "Imperial March" from Star Wars playing in my head? (der, der, der; der, dee, der etc. there it goes again!)

I'm off to finish putting up my new bike shed!

[TeeS]

Hi Wallsend

Unfortunately, I have never flown the 902 but have always had a respect for it as a HEMS machine. That view has been supported by comments from pilots who have flown it and loved it (I've yet to meet one who has flown it and not loved it for the job).

However, going back to the red decision to go EC135, I banged the table to one of those senior redtop men that the 902 would be a far superior HEMS machine. What more could we ask than a great big boxy cabin and a tail rotor fan tucked away from danger? The response was that the MD people were very nice people to deal with (and this was in the very early days after MD got sold off) but that at that time the support that MD could offer was not what we would demand for our customers. Secondly, minor maintenance tasks like removing panels to change a generator were a nightmare compared to the 135. Exchange rates may have had an impact on the decision but the comments above appear to have been prophetic about the 902's problems to date.

I have never seen evidence of the maintenance problems on the 135 that you mention, generally the engineers love it.

Regards

TeeS

[wallsend]

Hi Tees,

Re the redtop decision, I bow to your obviously superior knowledge on that. I'm only repeating what I was told by a long-time operator with them who was on the inside at the time.

Re the engineers loving it. You would have recognised utter hatred in the eyes of the engineer I saw last week! But it was freezing in the hangar which didn't help!

Further to engineering, the 135 is a delight to Check A. The 902 isn't (it can be a complete pain). That's because everything's high up on the machine. That's the downside of the big cabin.

You mention the "902's problems to date." I would take issue with the "to date" part of your comment there. I'm probably tempting providence but things are pretty good at the moment and have been for some time. We could engage in "what if LT does this or that" but certainly the support I see for the 902s I deal with is the same if not superior to that of the 135s I see.

[Bertie Thruster]

minor maintenance tasks like removing panels to change a generator were a nightmare compared to the 135

Takes about 10 minutes to take the relevant panel off. How often do you need to change a generator?!

[mfriskel]

I like flying the 135 a lot but I am regularly mystified by the absolutely virulently negative attitude some peolple have towards the 902. The only thing they seem have in common is that they aren't type rated on it. (it can't, of course, because some have a vested interest in pushing Eurocopter products...oh no:rolleyes:)

This is a great comment and I have run into it many times with the Explorer and the NOTAR in general. When I was hired at MD a very good friend of mine told me how poor the NOTAR was, how I was going to hate flying helicopters with NOTAR, and how much of a mistake I probably made- just a terrible idea and system all-in-all. Well the first thing when I went to work was a 520N transition. It was different. It wasn't better nor worse than tail-rotor machines I had flown, but it was different. Just like a 206 is different than a 500 or a 120. I found no great problems with it and with a 5 hour transition at the factory I was comfortable with it and saw no great nor even small problems.
I called my friend and told him what I thought and asked him how much time he had in NOTAR machines and why he disliked the system so much. His reply was that he had never flown one, that was just what he had heard. I ran across this many times in my 8 years at MD and still heard it today. From 99 to 2005, much of that was diven by friendly marketeers from a major European helicopter manufacturer. I have lots of 1 on 1 conversations to verify that.

[wallsend]

I too was uncertain even sceptical about the Notar system before I was type-rated on the Explorer. Then one day I saw a 902 hover taxying very slowly with a 40 kt crosswind from the right. Something I had been told emphatically it couldn't do!!

[Bertie Thruster]

Cue Raphael Ravenscroft's sax intro in Gerry Rafferty's 'Baker Street'. It's a lurve thing!

[wallsend]

Are you on the Merlot already Bertie?!

[PANews]

Wallsend

i can only assume that those that support the 135 and denigrate the 902 are awake and make good use of their communication skills.

I never heard of the instance you mention very vaguely in your post [so effectively I still have not got any information upon which I can ask questions].

I have absolutely no reason not to write negative stuff about the 135 or any other airframe type but as the promoters of the 902 [or are they just denigrators of the 135?] seem to have been particularly incapable of getting their positive information out there. Getting chapter and verse on any negatives to me seems not to be an option.

All the material in PAN is based upon input - and I am not aware of running any detrimental to 902 stuff in ages.

They say you get out what you put in.

Input NIL:oh:

Output NIL :ouch:

[wallsend]

To take your point about the information concerning the 135 that was out for 5 weeks. This was a police machine that left its northern base in mid-Feb this year and did not return until end-March. The reason for not spouting on about it was here or passing it for inclusion in your journal was confidentiality. I.e. not letting the bad lads in the region know there was no immediate air support to curtail their games - something the 135 and its crews there had been very successful at. (I don't intend to spill any more beans on this one you'll just have to take my word on it but I spent a lot of time hanging on the end of a phone at the time frustratingly awaiting its return!)

Re denigrating the 135. Here's some comments from my recent posts on this thread:

"I like flying the 135 a lot" and "the 135 is a delight to Check A". I would add to those statements it's brilliant OEI performance and the superb training mode in the CPDS versions.

My point is that there's probably not a lot to choose between the 135 and the 902, but that some people seem desperate to run the latter down without a lot of evidence to support their views.

Long may they BOTH continue in service!!

[Wagging Finger]

Well said Wallsend,

Aircraft availability being discussed in a public forum is a bit of a no no when it comes to Police Aircraft, so well done in not 'dropping a line' to the press who after all rely on tidbits from operators to provide copy and therefore justify it's inclusion their 'magazine'. if we were a little more circumspect in our dealings with the press perhaps they would have to start to work for a living!:eek:

Both aircraft have something to offer in the Police/HEMS role, Both have their evangelists and doomsayers.

Ultimately it's down to what suits the unit at the time as to which gets purchased.

Both aircraft do the job and do it well, may it continue into the future.
:=

[props stopped]

Getting back on the thread so to speak...Whats the news over in the Mesa MD shop these days, now we've heard about the northern 135 maintenance saga.

The Dauphin seems to be the cab of choice for ambulance work...ask the great north charity as they have just purchased 2 x N2's after trying the 902 in the past..

Is LT still saying she's in it for the long haul (ten years or more) or IS she actually trying to sell the MD line after losing the military contract?

All I can only see on her web pages, is that she's just talking about what a fantastic spokesman/person for womans issues she is these days, no mention about MD and its line?

Who owns the most in the MD partnership.... her or her right hand man Joep? I havent heard much from him about MD lately?

[md 600 driver]

props stopped

The Dauphin seems to be the cab of choice for ambulance work...ask the great north charity as they have just purchased 2 x N2's after trying the 902 in the past..



i think you may find thats down to money the 2 N2,S they have bought are 19/20 year old helicopters if they bought 2x 902 they would proberbly would have paid double or treble the amount

they also only leased the 902 not bought it

mfriskel
i agree with you when i had my 600 i got told by loads of people that the notar was no good when i asked them which notar they had flown it was none they got told by someone ,but when they flew it most people loved it it does have problems but most helicopters have, i think there is only one near perfect helicopter the gazelle

i can remember when you did a demonstation for me at HAI and showed me how to land without using pedals in a storm drain in LA ,then you lifted off without pedals too that sold it to me

i dont have any problem with any critism of the 520/600/902 but when it comes by hearsay and the pilots never been in one it annoys me

in uk sport we have a saying non players off the pitch

[props stopped]

md driver,
As seniortrooper so aptly put it, I think you will find they said "notar" to another 902, leased or not ;)

Anyone got any news from Mesa on whats really going on with the company or should I say LT?

Ps, I havent had my xmas card off LT yet :confused:

[PANews]

Props Stopped

You seem to have blundered into some breaking news there..... or entered a time warp..... Joep????? He was the previous owner wasn't he? He who is and has been harried by the Dutch authorities for [allegedly] doing naughty things gave up with MD when LT and her [regularly changing] gang moved in as saviours.

LT and Patriarch are the money behind MD, and LT is Patriarch.

On the other thing raised by Wagging Finger about sensible reporting of aircraft availability ...... I think you will find that some publications that are based upon persons who were playing the cop game when you were likely in nappies actually manage to get that type of news out after the event - with the notable exception of such as the WMP 135 which was severely and publicly, 'offline' as national news before the report appeared.

You could of course take exception to the recent nationally available and regionally reported Press Release from a midlands aircraft supplier that inserted an A109 into a RAF airfield north of Huntingdon simply because the police aircraft was missing on maintenance for 5 days.

It will be back in service before I report that public domain story.

[props stopped]

PAN,
I cant stop humming that "time warp" song now ;)

I think you may find Joep still has his fingers in MD, and is closely working with LT on other projects. Is he really the money behind LT after all, and are all these revolving doors with company names just a smoke screen.

He never left MD and is still a shareholder I believe.
I'm sure it will all come out eventually, but will it be only in the Dutch press again :suspect:

[wallsend]

Props stopped you said re GNAA and 902: "I think you will find they said "notar" to another 902, leased or not"

Totally wrong. I was there. They loved it - wanted 2 or 3 but too expensive.

Message ends.

[md 600 driver]

Props stopped

have you ever flown the 900/902 or had any experence of it or is knowledge all 10th hand

[wallsend]

314th hand, I suspect...

[Thomas coupling]

MD600 and wallsend (I suspect I know you). You're a pair of little tinkers aren't you! Repetitive and monotonous:uhoh:
Wallsend - read my earlier post more carefully old boy. I haven't mentioned the handling characteristics or performance of said aircraft, have I? Not once have I condemned it for it's capabilities as a HEMS cab (or even a police cab for that matter).
What has knifed the 902 in the back (and now it's time for me to be repetitive) is the maintenance and quality support by the OEM. Crap is too kind a word. The company is run by outsiders who have absolutely no interest whatsoever in aviation let alone running a helicopter production line. They have no research division, no customer after care department and so it goes on. There are no plans to give it a mid life upgrade.
Once you've bought the cab...guess what, you're on your own and by that I mean it's left to the subsidiary company (local supplier) to offer these services if they so wish. Luckily, the likes of PAS are such a company but even they struggle to hide the mess MD Helicopters has turned out to be.

I haven't driven a Delorean, I haven't been to the moon, but guess what - one doesn't need to be there / do that, to know what the problems are. Do you understand now?
The 902 is being hindered by its dysfunctional parent company.....it is doomed and in 5-10 yrs time, if nothing changes, there won't be any left in the UK. And I haven't even mentioned costs:=

[props stopped]

TC,
I could have have put it better. :D

[md 600 driver]

props stopped
how many hours then?

[props stopped]

TC you were right about the repetitive 'little' bit as well.

To think Joep is 'PAS' if anybody hadnt caught on here...

What now for MD...over to you LT

Merry xmas to one and all...am off to bermuda for a short break.. if I see Joep over there I'll pass on his chap Wallsends regards ;)

[Bertie Thruster]

There are no plans to give it a mid life upgrade

TC obviously has a direct line to LT.

Anyway our crew happy this year with 206 to 207 engines, extra 250lb of (public transport) payload, nvg cockpit, trakka beam spot, improved aircon, improved eng intake filtration and active NACA doors (volcanos?), extra 200 lb(below floor)fuel tank....and tinted windows!

All usual 'add-ons' - (talking 'range bearing height' TCAS (brilliant:ok:), integrated moving map, extra strobes, chelton airwave)-now housed internally, no belly pod, giving extra, rough ground, landing clearance;

[md 600 driver]

it all seems to be a lot of hearsay from people who ought to know better or disinformation for other commercial reasons

any way i am off to york in my LADA lol

[Thomas coupling]

Bertie: the engine upgrade is just that an ENGINE upgrade, not an airframe upgrade. The 207 has been incoming for the 902 for atleast 3 possibly more years?? It needed it too!
The fuel tank is a bolt on mod and not an airframe upgrade simply because its original endurance was piddling when you stuck all the police/hems mods onto it. I seem to remember it couldnt go past the 90 mins endurance is that correct. What is it now at your new AUM?
The rest you're on about is lightweight stuff mainly driven by the customer with regard to their ops especially your last para presumably?
MD Helicopters won't inject millions to improve the gearbox for example, or blade aerodynamics, or fly by wire etc etc. They don't see it as part of their plan. I would love to be proven wrong though, believe me:\

[tbc]

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa75/special37/Whodidthis.jpg

[lynx no more]

tbc, is that the new MD LT xmas card photo? It looks a bit out of focus, have a word with that chap playing with the camera.

Saudi Gazette have a snippet on MD in Manila.

Saudi Gazette - Manila suspends $90m worth military tenders (http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentID=2010100584754)

In 2008, a tender for six night-capable attack helicopters worth $29 million was scrapped due to alleged collusions between some army officials and US-based MD Helicopters Inc.

[PANews]

It takes two to tango.

In some countries a sweetener is expected and if accurate this story suggests that two companies came a cropper when this practice became common knowledge to the wringing hands brigade. The main loser being the customer with no aircraft in service it seems.

Not so sure you can pin this on MD.... clearly something happened in 2008 involving them.... [but it escaped the attentions of Ppruners I guess], the latest, modern, one is PZL spinning out and losing the sale of some Kania's [or the like] to meet the same still open requirement.

Is this where we introduce BAe Systems and the Saudi's to the thread? And I recall Eurocopter having similar problems not too far back ..... lummy...:ooh: Did I say that? :ouch:

[mfriskel]

I believe that the PWC 207E engines have been the engine delivered in every Explorer since about 2002. If you look at the performance charts and CAT capability from 206E to 207E, I think you will see it was an improvement. If you look at thruster extension, that was an improvement. By the way, that was required to replace an airworthiness issued on an "equivellant level of safety" at the very heavy lobbying of someone- hmmmm I wonder who? Anyway, an airworthiness being revoked based on no history of safety issues? Wow- I wonder how that got started- hmmm- let me think? Couldn't have been another manufacturer worried about the success of the Explorer- NOOOO couldn't have been. Oh well, that was completed in 2005 with all parts issued (FREE OF CHARGE) by years end of 2006. Let's see- no revocation of airworthness for products proven to be substandard by other manufacturers- ie AS350 hydraulic system, EC-145 lack of tail authority within the approved flight envelope (and no equivilent level of safety for a tail-rotor machine- people were hurt), EC-145 lack of electrical capacity, lack of ventelation without aircon installed, EC-145 lack of ability to deliver sufficient fuel to the engines in certain areas of the approved flight envelope. Interesting how these things work. I guess the rules don't apply if you have backing of lots of capital or you are a govt subsidized company, or both.
Improved AC system, that started in 2001 or earlier. Under floor aux tank, been available since 2000 or 2001. That became an option once the AC system was all moved out of the boat-tail area to the cabin roof.
Rotor blades? What is deficient about the rotor blades? Does the transmission need an upgrade? The 006 seems to be working quite well with the current configuration and the 6500 pound growss weight. Did I mention a 250 pound increase in internal gross weight for all acft in 2005? So anyway, lots of improvements to the Explorer and the current configuration is quite capable. Have there been any improvements since Oct 2005- I think the answer is no to that. All of the current goodies were developed and certified pre- current MD.

[Coconutty]

PAN,

Going back a few posts :
All the material in PAN is based upon input - and I am not aware of running any detrimental to 902 stuff in ages.
Does that in itself not warrant a mention ?

I guess that if you develop a reputation for being a 902 basher, then you won't get much Input at all from the 902 community - good or bad.


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[PANews]

Coconutty

Sorry that is a mighty lame excuse, but your choice.

In the event a lot of the 902 'bashing' was not only ages ago but well placed AT THE TIME . Most of the 902 people were in denial but it came to pass pretty much as stated and MDHI collapsed like a pack of cards. Enter LT.

It [the thread of problems that I spoke of years ago] has gone away now so being Elephantine over what it now ancient history does not show some people up in a good light.

If I can 'get on' with the bloke who tried to kill me with a knife 20 years ago I think this piffling matter ought to be well buried. Even if you had an issue at the time, even if you were wronged at the time, it is so old that you need to just grow up.

If not.... I don't care. Your loss.

[mfriskel]

But PAN, you were a big basher of the machine not the company. You did bash both, but you seemed to have an extreeme hard-on for the Explorer in particular. That does not seem to fit your response to coconutty. It was directed too, as you never would bring up faults and short-commings of the EC products, and there are many. It was like reading political writings from American journalists- one sided and not totally truthful- I think it is called BIASED. That is actually OK in a free society. You can be as biased as you want- no harm in it at all. But you have to accept that we see you as biased and should not complain when you are called biased.

[wright123]

Mfriskel,
I have to step into this thread about your post on PAN and MD.
PAN isnt biased, I read his online PAN edition each month, and he tells it how it is and its very informative about all apsects of the industry.

If the MD products or company deserved a dig at the time so be it, its no good whinging about it is there. Everyone in the industry knows whats happened over the years, it doesnt seem to be getting any better with some of the alleged deals that are coming to light here and there which makes me:yuk:

As others have said, if the company is in it for the long run so be it, but I doubt it, and no I havent got an inside line to LT either, she seems to have gone very quiet of late dont you think?

Keep up the good work PAN :ok:

[mfriskel]

If you re-read my post - it was on PAN and EXPLORER, not PAN and MD. There is no-one in this world who can defend the actions of MD of the past few years. MD had a good run from 1999 to 2003, but things went South for a handful of reasons. The helicopter community thought all would be better in August of 2005, but as we see, that was not mean to be. The posts that PAN is included in were pointed more directly at his bashing of a product at a time when it was actually doing well and being improved. No arguments about the company, but the bashing of the machine is where my comments and also I belive coconutty's comments come from.
As I said, bias if fine, no problems with that. I am biased myself. Just admit it. The time he started writing this stuff the Explorer was heading the right direction. Too bad it was such a short trip!

[md 600 driver]

sorry wright123 your wrong456 this time
pan has been very pro eurocopter i thought he was on commission one time ,and a big basher of the explorer over the years his last posts have been more level

[PANews]

Well perhaps [even if your allegation is true] this takes us back to where we started.... Coconutty effectively stating 'not telling you even if its good' .... real schoolboy stuff.

I write as I write and clearly at least one person out there defends what I have written. PAN has been out there for 15 years and to be honest it is the opinion of the wider market that matters not the dozen 902 philes in the UK.

Too much out there really to be specific but to say I have not 'slated' other brands does not hold water.... I have been pretty dismissive of the 135, 145 and 109 headroom [mainly because I am 6feet 5] and that is a plus for the 902 lots of headroom for me there... and sooooo quiet ... 135 Arris pots came and went a way back.... 145 maintenance....all sorts of things that were negative against that Franco-German company.

Not an English company mind you.... why would I have a great love for Eurocopter? Do they make something well perhaps? Something that thousands of people across the world buy? Something that is built under licence in nearly every continent of the world..... yes why would I?

And the dissing of the 902 and MD was always based on the information out there.... the anti-squad seem to suggest I made it up... but then seemed incapable of ever pointing to any specific instance where I had made it up! Reason is of course was that the 'stuff' was all too real and often supplied by 902 drivers who were not as enchanted as Coconutty and friends. Yes I even met some one who found that the 902 scared the poo out of him [even if that reaction was rare]. He got out, which was his only option.

Perhaps I was never supposed to mention that MDHI were shaky [long before anyone else], that there were production problems, that the Dutch still have a 902 in their hangar in 2010..... primarily as hostage to their own distastful experience ...but I have a problem with that.... they have. So sorry chaps I write about that because its real. You send me good stuff... or if I find it.... its in. Saudi Arabian HEMS was a good story... but that turned awful..... not the 902s fault.... but try telling that to the potential buyer.

Overall I think you will find that even the mentions of the 902 are just a tiny part of the thousands.... or is it millions of words written as PAN since 1996. And which bit are you whingeing about .... and which bit have you been whingeing about since the year dot? I doubt even you lot know.

I guess the trouble is that some [maybe many] readers only read the paragraph that relates to themselves rather than taking it in as nothing more than a digest of what is going on in the world of the airborne emergency services. Bit like only reading the back two pages of The Sun and having an opinion on World Politics.

Still there is one thing to look forward to.... that number on the left keeps getting higher.... 64 now.... one day I will stop writing and then you can find someone else to whinge about!:)

[lynx no more]

PAN, your monthly edition is the best police/ambulance monthly I've seen, its well written, and doesnt seem biased from where I'm sitting, and its free to read online :D

Reading about the Aris pot saga took me back to riding the EC buzz bomb, what a bumpy ride they were when they went, some times two went each week, and it took ages for EADS to sort, but not nearly as bumpy as the MD company ride and its management revolving doors. But this is the MD -not all good at Mesa thread after all.
I agree with not writing about police a/c out of action while the ship is down, but all of the different news stories about MD has got to make even the most die hard MD fan wonder what has been going on over there???

Less than 2 weeks to go, and I still havent seen the latest LT xmas card this side of the pond! So come on LT lets be having it.
Anyone in the states got one yet?? :E

[Hughes500]

Me thinks this getting away from the original thread and has become a 135 versus 902 argument. What is going on at the factory ?
Personally I run the 500 product, 6 years ago I was quoted 18 months for a new rotor drive shaft and tail rotor strap pack. Ordered a strap pack on Friday last week, in no hurry for it, it arrived yesterday. From my point of view spares support is great and much improved on 6 years ago:D

[PANews]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10932568/LynnTilton2006Dubai.jpg

Well no 'Card here either..... not so sure that many get them.... but I found a typical marketing pose in my archive under Dubai 2006...... they were not there this year....

HAI have issued some news that should warm the cockles of her heart.... they have just put in post one James McKenna as Director of Communications. It was he who famously wrote an item on an MD press conference at HAI and published lots of 'lies'.... basically he wrote what he remembered but she pulled it to pieces using the video and audio recording of the event..... slaughtered is a pretty good description .... from then on he was guest of dishonour at every MD Press Conference. He is a very nice man but LT minces peoples lives quite methodically and we have seen the revolving door of management pretty much proving that. Jim gave up being a journalist.... joined Bell's PR team briefly.... etc etc

Since then its fair to say there is not a publication that contains anything about their press conferences that is not written by MD! Outside [recorded] Press Conferences that is possibly a different matter.

[wright123]

While browsing for the latest LT card I came upon this article about a turkish incident which I hadnt heard about.

Does anyone know what the outcome was for the widows involved, and what was the actual cause of the loss of these guys?

Text and Ideas (http://www.textandideas.com/print/fatal-flight.html)

A new lawsuit is raising serious questions about the safety of helicopters made in Mesa and used by law enforcement agencies around the world, including on patrols along the U.S. border.

It stems from the deaths of five Turkish National Police officers who were killed in 2006 when their helicopter had problems in midflight in clear weather and crashed onto a crowded street in a resort city along the Mediterranean coast.

Late last month, three of the men's widows filed a wrongful-death suit against the maker, MD Helicopters, accusing it of putting old parts into what were supposed to be new aircraft.

The suit calls into question the helicopter's basic design including its emergency warning and backup systems and size of its fuel tank. It also questions how the helicopter was built.

The concerns come nearly eight years after the U.S. government considered scrapping its use of the Mesa-made helicopter, known as the 600N, in Border Patrol operations because of safety concerns.

Despite those worries, however, the U.S. government still uses the helicopter in question, as do police agencies throughout the nation and world.

MD Helicopters was asked to respond to the allegations leveled by the suit, but neither company officials nor its corporate attorney returned multiple calls for comment.

CRASH ON A CLEAR DAY

On July 19, 2006, five members of the Turkish National Police were watching over a soccer match that drew big crowds in the coastal city of Antalya.

They were flying one of several 600Ns that were sold to the force about 18 months prior.

The aircraft is a lightweight six-passenger helicopter made for missions just such as this one. At least one of the two pilots had undergone extensive training at MD's Mesa headquarters.

Afternoon temperatures that day were hovering at about 90 degrees. There was a light breeze and not a cloud in the sky.

At about 5 p.m., the crew was just offshore in midflight above the Mediterranean Ocean when there were several loud bangs and the aircraft shivered.

The sounds were loud enough that passengers on a sightseeing boat nearby heard it, too, authorities learned later.

The startled crew set the aircraft on course for level ground beyond a tall seaside embankment. Witnesses said it appeared they were trying to come in for a landing.

Moments later, the helicopter surged quickly upward, lost control and plummeted toward a crowded city street.

It hit with unbelievable force, enough to crush the aircraft instantly and scatter parts hundreds of feet away, investigative reports show.

Fuel spilled out and caught fire. Emergency crews and bystanders tried to save the five officers, but it was too late.

The impact and blaze were too much for the men.

Pilots Hakan Caya and Kudrek Calik, and passengers Ramazan Can, Osman Karadag and Adem Vurucu were killed.

FEW ANSWERS

Because the crash took place overseas, there was no U.S. government investigation of the American-made aircraft.

Instead, the Turkish government invited corporate investigators from MD and two companies whose components were in the helicopter, Rolls-Royce and Goodrich, to inspect the wreckage days after the crash.

The main report is filled with charts, graphs and dozens of pages of text and photographs.

It has detailed information about the engine and onboard systems, but in the end reaches no real conclusions about what caused the crash. It also said nothing about what caused the loud bangs.

"There was no evidence ... to suggest the accident was as a result of a malfunction or failure of the engine," the report said.

The answers didn't satisfy the widows of the three officers who were the passengers of the 600N.

The families of Can, Karadag and Vurucu called the Chicago law firm Nolan Law Group which specializes in investigating aviation catastrophes. The women asked for help.

Chief investigator Tom Ellis was assigned to look into the crash and quickly spotted some red flags.

"There's a lot here," he said in a recent interview.

For one, "the Turkish police were told that they were getting a new helicopter" when it was delivered on Oct. 30, 2004, he said.

But records show the engine was at least five years old - built in 1999 - when it was installed.

Additionally, a piece of the engine known as the HMU, or hydromechanical unit, had about 65 hours already logged when it went into the helicopter, Ellis found.

According to MD's Web site, the longest the 600N can stay in the air during any given flight is a little more than four hours.

That means, according to figures Ellis provided, the engine part was used in at least 16 flights, and likely more, in a different helicopter before being put in the one delivered to the Turks.

Ellis also discovered there were issues with the warning and fuel systems on the helicopter.

If the pilot was experiencing trouble with the engine, those problems may have prevented him from doing anything about it until it was too late. Also, the fuel tank was large and possibly too big for the small copter, he said.

The last and most intriguing part of the investigation came with the discovery of tiny particles of plastic the corporate investigators found floating in clear liquid inside the HMU.

The plastic was unusual and investigators called it a "contaminant" in their report.

Ellis thought it might be the key to finding out what happened in Antalya.

The original investigators reached no conclusion about it, but when Ellis asked to inspect the part, it had been cleaned out and the plastic was gone.

Ellis said he believes it adds up to "destruction of evidence."

"At best for them, it is a gross negligent oversight," he said. "But I don't believe that piece is gone missing and that HMU is going to be cleaned like new just by a regular course of business. Somebody had to authorize that to be done."

On July 18 of this year, the widows, with the help of attorney Thomas Routh at the law firm, filed suit in Maricopa County Superior Court, accusing MD of wrongful death, negligence and product liability.

They are asking for "maximum" damages for the grief and loss of the livelihood for their families, all of which have children.

So far, the company has yet to respond.

PRIOR SAFETY CONCERNS

In 1998, news about the 600N was much brighter.

The U.S. government had just ordered 11 of the fledgling models for about $1.3 million each and said it would probably want 34 more in the years to come.

The feds planned to use the helicopters along the U.S. border to track drug smugglers and groups of undocumented immigrants.

The copters were quiet and made to fly at heights low enough that agents could make out footprints or tire tracks.

For MD, which was part of Boeing at the time, the order was big. If all 45 helicopters were delivered, it would have been the single largest order of the 600N since the model was OK'd to fly the year before.

The company bragged that the helicopter, which used a patented no-tail-rotor, or NOTAR system, was one of the safest and quietest on the market.

Just two years later, though, the feds put a screeching halt on their order.

Pilots using the 600N had reported the aircraft was hard to maneuver. There were times when they had to make specialized landings, and some felt it was unsafe given the design of the craft, according to a report by the U.S. General Accounting Office in 2000.

While there were no major incidents or crashes involving Border Patrol agents using the 600N, experienced pilots also told GAO investigators they were worried that the aircraft wasn't balanced quite right, that it was nose-heavy.

MD officials disputed the claims, and at one point said the pilots just had a misunderstanding of some of the specifics of the helicopter.

The government decided the complaints were too significant to ignore, but not enough to ground the fleet.

The Border Patrol canceled its remaining shipment and continued to fly the original 600Ns.

Today, 10 of those originals are some of the oldest in a fleet maintained by what is now U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

Federal aviation records show all the copters are stationed in El Paso, Texas, but it's unclear how frequently they are being used. It's also unclear what happened to the 11th aircraft.

Agency spokesman Juan Munoz-Torres said he didn't know how many, if any, were being used in day-to-day operations. The models are likely to be phased out in the coming years, he said.

"Something that we need to look at is the fact that we are an extremely multidimensional type of organization," said Munoz-Torres.

No decisions have yet been made, he said.

While these helicopters are good for certain things like quietly tracking illegal border crossers, they aren't very versatile, he said.

Other law enforcement agencies in the U.S. have already phased out their use of the 600Ns and decided not to order any more.

In Los Angeles County, for example, the sheriff's department there used three of the helicopters in emergencies and patrols as recently as 2001.

Pilot Pat McKernan, a sheriff's deputy, declined to talk in-depth about why the department stopped using the 600Ns, saying he didn't want to upset the company.

But, he added, "Clearly we needed a different helicopter."

"I'm not going to say that we had issues," McKernan said. "But there was just aircraft that performed better."

Since the department stopped using MD, however, the company changed ownership and is now run by CEO Lynn Tilton, who McKernan said has "done a whole lot of good things to turn that company around."

According to the company Web site, MD is has sold few 600Ns to American companies or police agencies. Most are going oversees - to Brazil, Turkey, the UK and elsewhere.

Ellis, the Chicago investigator, urged buyers to look closely at their needs when considering the 600N.

"Before they make the decision to have these helicopters, they should take a good look at what their mission is and if these helicopters are what they need," he said.

In the end, he hopes to see the helicopter modified for the sake of Serpil Can, Aysegul Karadag and Fatma Vurucu, the widows of the men.

"They all have children and the mothers are looking to have their lives restored," he said.

The women are asking the company: "Make changes to make these helicopters safer."

The article was originally raised in Arizona press article.

Widows file suit against copter maker - East Valley Tribune - Arizona Local News: Home (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/image_2713d6b8-f07a-54b1-81da-51f7600b9f28.html)

[lynx no more]

MD 900 series - Cracks at the top, double check your hubs chaps.

MD Helicopters, Inc. Model MD900 Helicopters (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/129b650bc9bc23b2862577dd005785b3%21OpenDocument)

SUMMARY: This document publishes in the Federal Register an amendment adopting Emergency Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2010-18-52 which was sent previously to all known owners and operators of MD Helicopters, Inc. (MDHI) Model MD900 helicopters by individual letters. This AD requires visually inspecting the main rotor hub (hub) for a crack. If a crack is found, this AD requires, before further flight, replacing the unairworthy hub with an airworthy hub. Additionally, if a cracked hub is found, this AD requires reporting the finding to the Los Angeles Aircraft Certification Office within 10 days of finding the crack. This AD is prompted by two reports of cracks detected in the hub in the area near the flex beam bolt hole locations during maintenance on two MDHI Model MD900 helicopters. The actions specified by this AD are intended to detect a crack in the hub and prevent failure of the hub and subsequent loss of control of the helicopter.

[okan613]

the case is in the appeal court, the supreme court dismissed the case out of USA because the widows and deceased guys are Turkish. MDHI is trying to dismiss the case in Turkey, and they blamed the pilots and they alleged that Turkish police bought this "old and not guaranteed " helicopter knowingly. In Turkish press there were bribe allegations about the selling od MD-600N. Former Minister responsible from this procurement tells that he had evidences about it. It is alleged that 3.5 million dollar or more bribe had been given to Turkish governors to sell copters after GAO reports telling
Border Patrol: Procurement of MD 600N Helicopters Should Be Reassessed...


better than wiki... ha ha ha

[Hell Man]

Can anyone calculate the accident ratio for the 'notarious' 600 (total accidents against numbers built) and compare this with the overall average for single turbine helos.

Would be interested to see how it compares.

[fltlt]

Effective January 4, 2011 Robert Molsbergen, President of MD Helicopters, Inc. has left the Company.
Ms. Tilton promises to spend more time back at Mesa to sort things out.

No, I don't know why, so don't ask.

[Hell Man]

Ms. Tilton promises to spend more time back at Mesa to sort things out.


Fltlt thanks. I haven't laughed this hard in some time (I'm even finding it difficult to type!).

That really is hysterical!

HM

[turboshaft]

Hell Man - Please put down the coffee before reading further

CEO of MD Helicopters named as "Aviation Entrepreneur of the Year" (http://twitter.com/Kyle_BDN/statuses/14345590976544768)

[Hell Man]

No comment.

[wright123]

This comment says it all really doesnt it....

"I am neither tied to any person nor any thing, and if a deal or a relationship does not make sense, I can walk."

and this is where she said it.

Reflections On Power - Lynn Tilton, CEO, Patriarch Partners - Forbes.com (http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/18/change-success-choice-forbes-woman-power-women-09-survey_slide_4.html)

[lynx no more]

With regard to the latest departure of the CEO at MD on 4th Jan in FLTLT's earlier post, how many CEO's have left MDH since Hank and Joop handed Ms Tilton the majority share in MD?
Is she into double figures yet, and is there any truth in the rumour she may be doing a PPL course so she can tell us how to fly?
:confused:

[lynx no more]

I didnt recognise the last CEO's name as he was only at MD less than 12 months, so I googled him and am wondering if the dutch connection may have something to do with Joep's RDM ship building bankrupt empire?

Robert Molsbergen Named President of MD Helicopters | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://www.helihub.com/2010/02/22/robert-molsbergen-named-president-of-md-helicopters/)

"Prior to his board seat at MD, Mr. Molsbergen was CEO and Chairman of the Board of EMTS, a Dutch major global marine services company engaged in shipbuilding and ship repair and maintenance, which serves internationally renowned ship owners, operators and managers."

Mr. Molsbergen went to university in Rotterdam as well, hmmm the plot thickens over at MD and who is really in charge?

While elsewhere there seems to be news of a boeing chap talking to LT.

"The rumor is that a current Boeing Chief pilot is going to announce his retirement soon. He has been in negotiation with Ms. Tilton to manage MD Helicopters in anticipation of a big subcontract to build and flight test Little Bird helicopters for the Boeing Company. Ms. Tilton has yet to deny that this is true."

Its mentioned in justhelicopters.com which also has news of the recent ceo departure at LT's request!

[Ian Corrigible]

lynx no more,

The long-running rumor over on The Dark Side is that the chap in question has been doing more than just talking to the lady in question... :E

I/C

[wright123]

Doing a bit more than talking?
Will that be her PPL training then :E

[GeorgeMandes]

Tilton Flaunts Her Style at Patriarch - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704055204576068253540689070.html?mod=WSJ_hps _editorsPicks_2)

Tilton Flaunts Her Style at Patriarch

By ROBERT FRANK

Earlier this year, private-equity chief Lynn Tilton flew to Detroit to try to improve sales at one of her auto-parts companies. She got a cool reception from Ford Motor Co.'s purchasing chief, Tony Brown, who asked if she was like other private-equity chiefs that "strip and flip" their companies.

"You must be mistaken," she shot back. "It's only men that I strip and flip. My companies I hold long and close to my heart."


Bill Denver for The Wall Street Journal
Lynn Tilton owns all or parts of 74 firms with revenues of $8 billion. 'I am all woman,' she says. 'Sometimes it makes men uncomfortable.'

With her platinum blond hair, tight leather skirts and penchant for racy remarks, Ms. Tilton has a talent for getting people's attention. Yet behind the glam facade is a sophisticated distressed-debt investor and manufacturing tycoon who has quickly become one of the richest self-made women in America.

Through her New York-based holding company, Patriarch Partners, Ms. Tilton owns all or parts of 74 companies with revenues of more than $8 billion and 120,000 employees. By most measures, Patriarch is now the largest woman-owned business in America.

Ms. Tilton, 52 years old, built her fortune from an unlikely corner of the economy: down-and-out industrial firms. Her strategy is to buy manufacturers headed for the scrap heap and bring them back to life with new management teams and products. In the process, she's become an unlikely crusader for America's rust-belt.

"The key to America's future is manufacturing," she says. "We simply have to become a country that can make things again."

She has revived a defunct paper mill in Maine by turning it into a maker of alternative fuels. She took a money-losing helicopter maker founded by Howard Hughes and made it profitable through exports and sales to U.S. rescue workers and the military. During the depths of the auto-maker crisis, she bought up auto-parts companies that now have more than $1.7 billion in sales.

Ms. Tilton also has had her share of mistakes. After buying American LaFrance, the firetruck maker, she drove down revenue by more than 50% in an effort to improve profits. Four years later, she still is trying to turn the company around.

"That was a purchase I made more with my heart than my head," she said.

Ms. Tilton has the added distraction of her personality. Her office uniform usually includes five-inch stilettos, an eight-carat diamond necklace and the occasional black leather jumpsuit. Her office walls are filled with whips and handcuffs sent to her by friends, Hashemite daggers given to her by Middle Eastern royals, New Age paintings and a portrait of her stretched across the hood of a black Mercedes. Ms. Tilton makes no apologies for her unconventional look.

"I am all woman," she says. "Sometimes it makes men uncomfortable, sure. But in business and in life, I have to remain faithful to my inner truth. In the end, I'd hope people judge me on my accomplishments and intelligence."

Ms. Tilton started on Wall Street as a single mother, working 15-hour days and putting herself through Columbia's business school. She had graduated from Yale as a nationally ranked college tennis player and aspiring poet, and married her college sweetheart. Soon after starting work on Wall Street, she got divorced and plunged into her work.

She rose through the ranks of Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs, Kidder Peabody and Amroc. She had a talent for quickly dissecting balance sheets and distilling complex financial information into simple forms. She won a rare patent for a portfolio-construction model that continues to serve as the foundation for Patriarch.

In 2000, she founded Patriarch, named after her late father. Her plan was to trade debt with her own money. Yet after buying two giant portfolios of distressed debt, she realized the only way to succeed was to take control of the companies in the portfolio. Suddenly, Ms. Tilton had gone from a debt investor to the accidental chief executive of dozens of failed companies. Her turnarounds were so profitable that she went on to buy more companies

She commutes most mornings by helicopter from her New Jersey home to Manhattan, and she owns homes in Florida and Arizona, Hawaii, and a Italian villa on Lake Como, just up the mountain from George Clooney. Ms. Tilton remains close to her 28-year-old daughter, who is one of her deputies. She sleeps only a few hours a night and sips a homemade concoction of clay, salt and chlorophyll. She often stays up late reading science fiction on her Kindle.

Walking down the manufacturing line at her MD Helicopter plant in Arizona on a recent afternoon, Ms. Tilton looked out of place in her shimmering dress and heels. Yet she quickly bonded with workers with her earthy jokes and detailed knowledge of metal alloys and machine-tools.

"Workers really take to Lynn," said Duane Lugdon, a United Steelworkers union staffer who led tense negotiations with Ms. Tilton at the Maine paper plant. "She's just human and honest with people. I don't say that about many CEOs."

Her personal involvement in each company—she's still CEO of MD—can cause friction, former employees say. They say employee churn at Patriarch is high in part because of Ms. Tilton's tough personality.

"I'm a benevolent dictator," Ms. Tilton says. "I like to control things. What we do, the distressed area, is not for the faint of heart."

Her real mission, however, is pushing the U.S. to adopt a more coordinated government policy that better supports the country's manufacturers.

She is doing her own part by preserving jobs at her own firms as best she can, she says. Yet she also is pressing Washington to better enforce antidumping rules and to require companies that sell in the U.S. to manufacture in the U.S.

"If we don't become a country that makes things again, we won't have enough jobs for our people," she said. "Without jobs, we could have social unrest. And that's not science fiction."

Write to Robert Frank at [email protected]

[lynx no more]

With PR like that I expect her to run for President, don't know if it will be of a country though ;)

Rumours abound at Staverton that she may be paying them a flying visit to see the Dutchman, and that they have a red carpet for Air Force One in the stores already :E

[helihub]

Lynx-nm

There's a profile of the ex-CEO here which includes his education (all in Netherlands including "Marine engineering", right of up the RDM street) -> Robert Molsbergen - LinkedIn (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/robert-molsbergen/b/354/b5b)

[wright123]

Was wondering if LT completed her PPLH, as there isnt much noise from her at MD these days? :}

Patriarch Partners: Patriarch Partners Photos, Wallpapers, Galleries, 338 lynn tilton pic 3 jpeg (http://connect.in.com/patriarch-partners/photos-338-lynn-tilton-pic-3-jpeg-08ecce8a79be1fb8.html)

[Digital flight deck]

Was wondering if LT completed her PPLH
Just the final handling test to do.

[Coconutty]

final handling testIs that a Reference to one of the other Photo's in the gallery link by Wright123 ;) ?

Patriarch Partners: Patriarch Partners Photos, Wallpapers, Galleries, Picture 1284 (http://connect.in.com/patriarch-partners/photos-picture-1284-f6c282d1d4deb7e2.html#image_button)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[wright123]

I wasnt sure if it was the same lady when I saw the cuddly toys and whip in the gallery?

Are they the past ceo's she's whipping into shape ;)

[lynx no more]

A "littlebird" tells me that LT will be making a speech on how good she is at Heli Expo. Will it be the news we have been expecting about MD for a few years, and will LT be heading into the sunset?

Did she pass her final handling test with the Boeing chap?

I may go to Florida just to see the outfit this year ;)

[fltlt]

Christophe Nurit's resigned effective February 4th.

How many bottles of beer on the wall?

[wright123]

He wasnt one of Joep's RDM men then?

http://www.mdhelicopters.com/news/pdf/Christophe%20Nurit%20Named%20Vice%20President%20of%20Sales%2 0and%20Marketing.pdf

He only lasted 5 months as vice president of sales under the LT whip!

Is the writing on the wall over the other side of the pond? Will Henk head back to sort it all out ;)

[industry insider]

Nurit has moved to Sikorsky as Regional Executive in charge of Asia and India.

[lynx no more]

I bet thats a breath of fresh air after the LT whip, will she be taking over the VP job at MD as well :E

[wright123]

Doesnt sound good for LT in latest trial! I did hear another RDM man was inline for the VP job, personally recommended by Joep ;)

$32M lawsuit filed against MD’s Lynn Tilton and Patriarch Partners | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://www.helihub.com/2011/01/29/32m-lawsuit-filed-against-lynn-tilton-and-patriarch-partners/)

29 Jan, 11

A $32 million lawsuit has been filed in an Ohio Court against Patriarch Partners and Patriarch’s CEO and founder, Lynn Tilton. The suit was filed on behalf of MA Equipment Leasing I LLC and MA 265 North Hamilton Road LLC.

The suit, (case number 09CVH 08 12912 ) filed in the Common Pleas Court of Franklin County in Columbus, Ohio, follows a previous decision and order of $5.74 million for damages in favor of MA 265 as well as an additional decision awarding nearly $600,000 in attorney’s fees and costs in favor of MA Equipment (case number 07CVH02-2297). The award addressed the material breach of certain building and equipment leases, and a failed attempt to improperly move leased equipment and machinery to Monterrey, Mexico by Zohar Waterworks, which is owned by an affiliate of Patriarch. Zohar Waterworks, a Columbus-based manufacturer and distributor of water cooler systems, filed for bankruptcy in April 2009, just weeks before a judgment was to be entered on these claims.

According to the complaint, Patriarch and Tilton controlled and dominated Zohar Waterworks and were responsible for Zohar Waterworks’ filing for bankruptcy in an effort to thwart that imminent judgment and protect Patriarch and Tilton’s interests. The complaint further asserts that subsequent bankruptcy court rulings preserve any claims that MA Equipment and MA 265 had against Tilton and Patriarch.

The earlier trial court found that an employee of a Patriarch affiliate, John Harrington, “affirmatively” lied to MA Equipment, concealed material information from MA Equipment, “surreptitiously” ordered Zohar Waterworks’ employees to remove and transport the leased equipment and machinery to Mexico, and “intentionally disregarded” an admonishment by MA Equipment not to do so. The court found Harrington’s “truculence” and “belligerent attitude” forced MA Equipment to file a request for a temporary restraining order against Zohar Waterworks, resulting in a court order directing that the equipment and machinery be returned to Columbus. Zohar Waterworks “knowingly and willfully violated” that equipment lease by “improperly removing, relocating or transferring MA Equipment’s equipment to Monterrey, Mexico without obtaining MA Equipment’s prior written consent.” The trial court found that this and other “misconduct” of Harrington amounted to a material breach of the equipment lease.

The most recent lawsuit alleges Tilton, Harrington, Patriarch and other affiliates of Patriarch unlawfully interfered with and prevented Zohar Waterworks’ performance of those equipment and building leases with MA Equipment and MA 265. The suit, filed by the Ohio-based law firm Hahn Loeser & Parks LLP, also alleges fraud against Tilton and Patriarch Partners asserting that they had no intention of permitting Zohar Waterworks to perform its obligations under the leases and that they “… knowingly and maliciously misused the corporate form to defraud and unjustly damage Plaintiffs [MA Equipment and MA 265]….”

The $32 million claim includes $7 million in compensatory damages and $25 million for punitive damages.

MA Equipment is a private investment company specializing in leasing manufacturing equipment. MA 265 is an industrial real estate investment company.

For additional information or comments, please contact MA Equipment and MA 265 attorney John Marsh at 614-233-5102.

[wright123]

From someone who is supposed to be good with numbers, this was a bit of an over statement from the great LT :E

MD produced 12 helicopters in 2010, not 50 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://www.helihub.com/2011/01/19/md-produced-12-helicopters-in-2010-not-50/)

Helihub quote; So, where does this leave us? HeliHub.com believes the 2010 production of MD Helicopters was 12 airframes - those listed in section 1 above.

Due to the (lack of) speed with which FAA keeps its data current, it is possible that the 10 airframes in section 2 were also 2010 production, but as all of these are still registered to MD Helicopters and not customers, we feel safe to assume that they were not. We are very open to the fact that there may be other information not available to us which could alter these figures. We will happily run another article in the future if MD Helicopters come to us with different figures substantiated by serial numbers and customer names in the way we have in this article.

[Hughes500]

wright123 I take it you would like to see MD go to the wall then ?

[Flaxton Flyer]

Is it me or are there a lot of bitter people on this thread? What's the matter kids, didn't LT send you a Xmas card this year? :{ Or are you just intimidated by powerful successful and VERY rich women?

Dry your snot-nosed little faces and man up!!

[fltlt]

FF

I think the majority of us really wanted and expected MD to survive and thrive, many still do. But it appears that the good ship has no oars in the water and the helmsman is MIA.

And for that we are deeply disappointed, especially when their competition are running rings around them.

Sometimes throwing money around just doesn't work. You need the passion, vision, leadership and knowledge for the product and it's marketplace. Helicopters and aviation are not commodities to be traded at the drop of a hat.

I do not know Ms. Tilton personally, she does appear to be a successful person. However her track record in this industry does not live up to the hype.

Female or male, it matters not. What does matter is that MD appears to be on a slippery slope and who or how can turn that around. Otherwise I fear this thread will end for the lack of a subject.

But then what do I know.

[Hilife]

Sometimes throwing money around just doesn't work. You need the passion, vision, leadership and knowledge for the product and it's marketplace.

That’s very true of your workforce, but they don’t buy the product, the customer does.

What the customer has always wanted from MD is a well funded and credible owner who will not only invest in the product, but is also in it for the long run and not just an opportunity to lean and sell for a profit after 5-years.

I genuinely hope MD comes back, but this is only going to happen under the wings of one of the big four commercial players (SAC/EC/AW & Bell) and the further the big four's products evolve, the less likely they are to take on MDHi's stagnating product line.

I don't see EC being interested in anything MD has to offer, AW possibly a few years ago, but with their new AW169 in design, I'd figure them out of the equation too, so that leaves Bell and SAC.

I don't see Bell as having the money or the business case with the 429 in production and as for SAC? 5-years ago maybe, but in spite of desperately lacking something in the 7,000 to 9,000 lb category for the huge EMS/ALE market, I’m not so sure this would still be an option, as I suspect technology is moving on too quickly to make the MD902 production line a worthwhile buy.

It's a great shame as the MD902 is a credible competitor to the EC135, but what chief pilot or owner is going to opt for a platform with an uncertain future, which makes MDHi a high risk option for buyer’s and this is where the problem lies.

[PANews]

Flaxton, you really must take off that blindfold and let the light into your rose-tinted spectacles.

You have supported MD to the end of the road and beyond..... and have faithfully knocked everyone that suggested all was not rosy in the garden. In all fairness your positive defences have not really born fruit in turning around the situation. The production numbers have simply not made it anywhere near the LT predictions year in year out.

No MD are not dead in the water, no their products are not rubbish. They are old, very old, and not recently upgraded but as long as they fly there are positives.

As you know selling aircraft is only part of it. On the whole they make more money for the manufacturer flying and consuming spares.

The sad fact for MD is that they, and their products, do not impress the buyer and they do not buy a worthwhile number of new ones. The exception may be Boeing and the Little Bird.

That leaves LT with an asset that is making money consuming spares. As long as the grounding rates can be controlled that gives her time.... time when she can look to use profits to improve [and maybe even sell more].

Does she have the patience to sit it out?

[lynx no more]

Flaxton, PAN is correct as well as the other commentators from around the world on this thread.

MD management is changing by the month, and the fact that the latest VP to go only lasted 5 months at MD, speaks volumes that something must be wrong at the top, and LT is a the top.

Maybe she thought she would get the military contracts which she didnt, but Helihub seems to have caught her out about her statement about the MD 2010 sales figures.
Judge's in the states dont make damage awards of $5.74million against her, if she didnt do any wrong! The other firm must be confident going for an extra $32m!

I'm in and out of Staverton on a regular basis, and there are lots of rumours from people on the ground about MD and PAS.
What will happen to PAS if it all goes pete tong at MD, if the mighty LT does decide she's had enough?

I hope there are a lot of 902 spare parts being stockpiled for a few of the UK ambulance charities sake.
From an earlier comment in this thread I noticed that most of the ambuance 902's in the UK are running on borrowed money. Lets hope the various charities have a back up plan (especially if they are running 2 x 902's) :ok:

[EthanW]

MDH has not sold any new model MD600N's in the past 3 years .I also read Border Patrol is "storing" their fleet in Tucson ...and Turkey Police are taking MD to court over the deaths of 5 officers in a crash that they blame on faulty parts? The US Government Accountability Office published notice to all departments to stop any new purchases of MD-600N's

Also almost every UK reg airframe that have been re-sold have since crashed or been involved in an accident ....in fact of the total number of aircraft build (80 something airframes build since 1997)...more than 30 have crashed ...some(about 10) were patched up and put back into service or re-sold.. There is 10 airframes for sale at the moment...with the average md600 sitting on the "for sale lot" for 2 years....

The following serial#'s crashed or were in an accident...
1,4,5,8,10,11,12,22,24,26,31,33,35,36,37,40,42,44,45,48,49,5 0,52,54,55,56,57,63.... while US Border Patrol is now storing their fleet in the desert.. If you count all the airframes lost, damaged, in storage or up for sale..over 50% of the MD600n fleet is not flying ;( ... is that normal /average? I know one model does not reflect on the entire range..as the 500 series have been a very good product..but its the overall perception of those that operate a product that counts...

[Savoia]

.
Hughes Helicopters (1947-1984) was a great company. Every one of their products either filled or created a niche. Their products were by and large reliable and effective and the company demonstrated innovative solutions in their responses to and development of the market.

In 1975, three years after the US Army cancelled the Cheyenne project, Hughes flew their YAH-64A prototype which was to win out over Bell's YAH-63A in the US Army's Advanced Attack Helicopter competition. The YAH-64A was to become the AH-64A Apache and the rest, as they say, is history.

The post-Hughes timeline:

1984 - McDonnell Douglas purchases Hughes Helicopters.

Everything still okay.

1986 - Schweizer acquires all rights to the Hughes 269/300 helicopter from McDonnell Dougals.

Everything still okay but, the company loses a unique asset in that despite Robinson's success, the 300 represented ongoing commercial potential.

1997 - McDonnell Douglas merges with Boeing.

Everything still okay.

1998 - Boeing's intention to sell MDHC's civilian line to Bell Helicopter is thwarted by the US Federal Trade Commission.

Not realised at the time but likely to have been the last chance café for MDHC's civilian line.

1999 - Boeing sells the civilian line of helicopters to MD Helicopter Holdings.

The death knell for MDHC's civilian line.

2005 - MD Helicopter Holdings is purchased by Patriarch Partners.

You may add your own sentence here ...

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/__dRpfF8qlVM/TVb2B1HzE3I/AAAAAAAABns/9G6VvaaCpCk/s512/1975.jpg

The 1975 ad by Hughes Helicopters promoting what would become the Apache. A development which would transform Hughes' fortunes - and the future direction of the company.

S.

[Flaxton Flyer]

"Flaxton, you really must take off that blindfold and let the light into your rose-tinted spectacles"

“You have supported MD to the end of the road and beyond..... and have faithfully knocked everyone that suggested all was not rosy in the garden”

PAN, PAN, PAN. There have been people on PPRUNE who have questioned your journalistic integrity in the past, intimating that you post things without too much concern to the actual facts.

Personally, whilst espousing the virtues of the 902 at every possible opportunity, I can't actually remember defending MD as a company at all, never mind to the extent you are claiming.

So now I am going to give you a chance to prove to all these disbelievers what a top journo you really are. Please feel free to go back over all my previous postings (there are only 117 or so, it won’t take long) and show me where I have “supported MD to the end of the road and beyond” and “faithfully knocked everyone that suggested all was not rosy in the garden”

OK fella….you’re centre stage. Show me your “facts”.

[PANews]

I did actually set off into the 117 but was 'saved' by the first one.... the one that led me to exclaim about blindfolds and specs.....

Is it me or are there a lot of bitter people on this thread? What's the matter kids, didn't LT send you a Xmas card this year? :{ Or are you just intimidated by powerful successful and VERY rich...

I would hate to use that single post by you as a reason for clamping you in irons but it was what I was talking about.

Saved me hours as well!:ok:

[Flaxton Flyer]

Hmmm... looking at one post out of 117 (or around 0.8547% of all my posts) is your idea of good investigative journalism, eh? I am impressed by your professionalism and thoroughness!! Doubt that your critics will have been appeased though....

If I applied the same amount of diligence to investigating your postings I would probably be thinking "Hmmmm.....blindfolds, LT, clamped in irons.....
I think I'm getting the gist of your fantasies now, fella":ok:

All this LT bashing on your behalf is just a smokescreen isn't it? Come on, ditch Eurocopter's "parts-bin special" 135 and come over to the Dark Side, you'll feel much better for it. Might even get back on the Xmas card list, who knows??

FF

PS You dont have to bother reading my other 116 posts as I obviously did that before I posted - it's called research. Give it a go, you might like it!

[md 600 driver]

sorry pa i agree with flax
Is it me or are there a lot of bitter people on this thread? What's the matter kids, didn't LT send you a Xmas card this year? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif Or are you just intimidated by powerful successful and VERY rich...

from reading some of the later posts on here i do wonder what md has done to lynx and wright because they are so bitter and he or them need to chill out
i am the first to agree there has been problems at the ranch at mesa for a while but from a customer point of view LT did make a huge difference
and the company is still trading


also i am getting older and like mutton i dont get any chance with lambs these days LOL

[lynx no more]

Savoia, well said, I couldnt have put it better.

I dont think PAN has an axe to grind with MD, I must say his articles are very good and informative. I bet everyone in the UK rotary world logs on to his monthly page to see whats going on. :ok:

This MD debaucle started with the RDM fella who still owns PAS, and we NOW know what he's been upto in the past dont we! I wonder if he pays taxes on his UK PAS earnings with being a non resident of the Dutch now?

The mighty LT (who in her own words, "is tied to no company") thought she was in the running for the big money miltary contract, which is the only reason she bought the reminants of what was once major player in the US avaition world.

Howard Hughes must be turning in his grave.

PAN you should give Savoia a job as his/her article, I couldnt have put it better on the history of MD. :D

[PANews]

I am a bit slow on this... two more posts before I got back! If only the National Police Aviation Service were still causing so much scribbling!

I did read the 116 I missed after I replied [that I guess is retro investigation!] and they do show your flavour of preference... you know a little to much about the MD product to be a person without a preference. Same goes for MD600 ..... it would be a strange handle for a Sikorsky man.

And you know what?

That is OK by me. We are all brought up with preferences and we all do our best to suppress them when we think we ought to. Same goes for me I guess at times. With your chosen 'handle' I guess we might be near neighbours by birth and that is always a recipe for friction. You know Yorkshiremen are ALWAYS right and two rights rarely make a........ So any little digs just blow away in the breeze!

And dear old LT is no angel in this.

I have seen her try, quite successfully, in a very public forum to destroy a man. OK he made a mistake in his writings, got too much of an Enid Blighton flavour in his reporting of an event which she diligently recorded...... but the venom showed she expects and gives no quarter.

Sweet as a pussy cat when she wants to be but there are lots of broken people [mainly men] along the way. I suspect that if I had really spoken out of turn I might have joined them by now.;)

[Hughes500]

PA News you obviously have never worked in " big business" where it is survival of the fitest. LT might not be a saint but she is undoubltly more sucessful than you. Show me any boss of a big business who hasnt upset the apple cart and got rid of people and perhaps done dubious things for the sake of the bigger picture.From my point of view when Boeing owned the company I was given a lead time of 9 months for a main rotor driveshaft, under LT got one within a week. Can only speak as I find - parts support is way better than the other types I own or have anything to do with.
I would love MD to do well otherwise the industry will end up in a worse state with no competition.Sadly they probably wont which is a shame as some of their products blow the doors off the competition's machines dispite in some cases being neary 50 years old.

[lynx no more]

Her attitude may have something to do with her NOT winning the US military contract. She would have ruffled a few feathers in my regiment.

As for MD600 Drivers comment about me being a "them? or bitter"? I usually rise above baiting, or someone on a fishing exercise on this site, but in this case I'll respond. I was bitter with what I witnessed during my tour of Bosnia, but on this thread...nahhh. :rolleyes:

MD/LT Oracle time;

1. Will LT (her that can do no wrong) sell the the popular 500/Littlebird line to Boeing, as they are the major players with the military, and dont go through management like MD's revolving door?

2. Will MD last another 12 months in the current civilain LT setup?
Why would a VP who joined from Bell jump ship after 5 months with LT? (2 questions there)

3. Will anyone in their right mind ever buy a new MD600N again? I noticed LT doesnt fly in one either! Will she start her daily commuting in one? nahh I very much doubt it.

4. Will the Turkish police widows of the "not so new MD600N" that crashed in strange circumstances, ever get compensation, after MD fought the widows claim in the states?

Finally if anyone is bitter, I bet its the poor widows and family members of the Turkish police MD600N crash over in Turkey. I didnt see LT going to Turkey to reasure them that they would be taken care of financially :=

[Hughes500]

Haven't the majority of 600 crashes been caused by engine failure ? In which case would the engine manufacture not carry some of the blame ?
I m not defending the 600 here, just curious as to whether the C47 is any good ?

[md 600 driver]

lynx

answer to question 3
yes i would if i could afford it but the dollar and the new price is higher than when i bought the last one,
i am hoping the border ones come up for sale cheap if you keep rubishing the 600 that may happen sooner hopefully

i sold my last one because i was offered more than i paid for it after 3 years and 700 hours later lovely machine fast, smooth, reliable,safe and a pilots machine like the gazelle i have now

[md 600 driver]

500
i think most accidents have been pilot error

cant realy say about engine failures but i had a engine out landing at cranfield i must have been 100 ft and 20-30 kts well in the h/v curve but it landed safely on a taxiway and no damage
the cause was foreign bodies in the HMU it was a growth of bacterior that had blocked the fuel .the 600 is a quiet helicopter but its erie when it goes totaly quiet although it must have only been seconds it seemed ages

[lynx no more]

I'm sure the people who are trying to off load the ten or more 600N's for sale, will knock a bob or 2 off if you want a cheap one.
EthanW mentioned he knows that there are plenty about which havent sold for 2 years.
Bacteria in your HMU? Wasn't there also some foreign plastic bodies in the HMU on the Turkish police crash report? The same supposed "new police MD600N" which had parts on it that were years old?
Out of interest, are there any other MD600N's in Turkey?

Come on Lynne put your money where your mouth is,
lets see you start using one of those shiney MD600N's to do your daily commuting instead of that personal Exploder..........."that'l be the day"
I think I can hear her saying :cool:

[Flaxton Flyer]

PAN.. did read the 116 I missed after I replied [that I guess is retro investigation!] and they do show your flavour of preference... you know a little to much about the MD product to be a person without a preference

Well I can't argue with that as the 902 is my daily driver, and has been for the last 5 years+!. Apart from a shortage of flexbeams some years ago, I can honestly say that downtime has been minimal and support from both PAS and MD has been exemplary, despite all the wailing from the doom-mongers.

Of course I know as well as anybody the ups and downs at Mesa, but I have never been an apologist for the company which is why I took exception to your “You have supported MD to the end of the road and beyond..... and have faithfully knocked everyone that suggested all was not rosy in the garden” comments.

I have supported - and will continue to support until circumstances and personal experience dictate otherwise - the 902, because it is a cracking machine. LT is big and scary enough to look after herself, as you rightly point out.

Yes, I do knock the 135 from time to time, but only as a wind-up - I know deep down that if the 902 didn't exist it would be the best aircraft in that sector..;)

However, there seems to be too many people on here who are just waiting for MD to fail, so they can smugly say "see - told you so!". I can't understand that. It also seems to be open season on LT for some of Pprune's keyboard warriors who seem determined to rubbish her in some kind of sad points-scoring mission.

My view - rightly or wrongly - is that, although MD is far from perfect, without LT it could easily have gone to the wall, which would benefit no-one apart from our chums at EC.

And to be perfectly honest, all I want is for MD to soldier on for just over 5 years and then I can slip happily into retirement in, as you rightly, assumed, God's Own Country with my whippets and black pudding.:ok:

Who knows, I may even start my own magazine! "LT News" has a nice ring to it.....

[EthanW]

@Flaxton Flyer "What's the matter kids, didn't LT send you a Xmas card this year? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif Or are you just intimidated by powerful successful and VERY rich women?

Dry your snot-nosed little faces and man up!!" ...."which would benefit no-one apart from our garlic-eating chums at EC"

...and you wonder why an old geyzer like you wake up in a gutter with your head kicked in!... Nothing more irritating than some arrogant t&*(&r who thinks he is big chief just because he can fly a helicopter...wonder if you would call another grown man a snot nose little face if we were face to face in a pub?

[Flaxton Flyer]

Ethan - thanks for your input, I'll be sure to take it under advisement!

Big chief just because he can fly a helicopter? As this is a professional pilot's forum I assumed that everybody on here can fly a helicopter. You can...can't you?

FF

PS - When I wake up in the gutter, I'll be sure to say hello to your spelling and grammar.;)

[EthanW]

."As this is a professional pilot's forum I assumed that everybody on here can fly a helicopter. You can...can't you?"
Yes I do and have been for 22 years ... And since English is my third language I am sure you are good at writing fluent French or Dutch ..@Flaxton Flyer "despite English being your third language...congratulations - you've learnt how to insult people in a foreign tongue!" ..are you losing the plot ? As far as I can see it is you that did the insulting???....for calling your fellow aviators/pilots "snot nosed little faces or garlic eating chums ...sure shouts professional..Perhaps you should focus more on the "Professional" bit in the title and less on the "Pilot" bit.

Back on the topic of the thread..."Bitter people that wants to see MDH fail"...wrong.
People are bitter because we see MD failing..or more because some Monopoly playing private equity firm is fast destroying something we love...my first flight at age 5 was in the "egg shaped" helicopter and my childhood dreams were based on TV programs like 240Robert and MagnumPI...So am i bitter for not getting a xmas card from LT..no. Will she get on from me ..No

But then I don't get all funny because some woman tatooted a phoenix on the &*(&...and by saying " See boys, I am committed to MDH as I have tatooed a phoenix on my ^&^.. but I can't show you now as I am not going to lift my dress" sure instil confidence in the product...even less impressed when you say " give me the military contract and I will tatoo the MD logo on my other cheek".
....perhaps I'll just wait it out
EW





Ew

[Flaxton Flyer]

Yes I do and have been for 22 years ... And since English is my third language I am sure you are good at writing fluent French or Dutch ...Perhaps you should get out of Black pudding land to realise not everybody else has a snot nose or wear a skirt!
Ew

Oh no..English is your third language? Now I feel bad, insulting your grammar and spelling makes me feel like I've just kicked a three-legged kitten down the stairs.

However, despite English being your third language...congratulations - you've learnt how to insult people in a foreign tongue! :D

But...fluent French and Dutch??? Come on, why would I waste my time learning two languages that nobody uses?

Oh 'ecky thump..I've just dropped my snot-covered black pudding on my skirt. I'll have to get one of the servants to lick it off.

I'll sithee, 'T Big Chief

[md 600 driver]

i like the 600 but if i had the option to go to work in a 900 i would take the 900 or the 135 or 355 or 109
there are other 600s in turkey owned by the police AFAIK they bought 6
there are lots of other makes of helicopters that have not sold for 2 years it does not mean they are giving them away

english is my second language after yorkshire ,in yorkshire we even have our own translatation of the bible [sounds better in audio ]

EXODUS 5
Then comes exciting bit see. They all marched off and went to see Pharaoh. And they told him straight.
"We come wi' a message from Jehovah, God of Israel! And He says, Let my people go cos they've got to go art and mek a sacrifice int desert like."
"Is that so!" Pharaoh says. He weren't much bothered by all this lot. "And who's this Jehovah bloke that I should listen to him eh? I don't know nobody called Jehovah and I'll not let people of Israel go anywhere neither."
But Aaron and Moses kept on at him.
"God of Israel met us," they said.
"Oh ah," says Pharaoh. "Where?"
"In a bush."
"In a bush!" Pharaoh says, and he has a job on not to laugh. "Tha's telling me tha's got a God what hangs abart in a bush?"
"Aye, well, but that's not important. We've got to tek a three day trip into wilderness and mek a sacrifice to God. If we don't obey we're in big bother."
Well Pharaoh weren't having none of this.
"Get thi sen off back to work! Who does tha think tha's kiddin wi' all this Jehovah stuff."
And as soon as they'd gone Pharaoh tells his task masters to mek Israelis really sweat and mek 'em work twice as hard as normal.
"They must have nowt to do or they wouldn't be goin on abart daft things like goin art to wilderness to mek sacrifices. Don't give 'em any more straw for bricks but mek sure they come up wi' right quota. That'll keep 'em occupied. That'll teach 'em to listen to them trouble makers Aaron and Moses."
Well over next few days them Egyptians gave Hebrews a right pasting. They were whipping 'em and hitting 'em and shouting abart quotas all time.
"Tha's got to mek same number of bricks as before!" they shouted. "But tha's getting no more straw so it's just tough intit luv."
And it got so bad as foremen went to see Pharaoh.
"Tha can't keep treating us like this," they said. "We ant got no straw so we can't mek same number of bricks and then them taskmaster blokes lay into us wi' whips and stuff. It int right."
And Pharaoh says,
"Well that's just tough luck me old luv," he says dead smarmy. "Tha can't have enough to do or tha wouldn't be on abart daft things like goin to desert to mek a sacrifice. Nar get this sen off afore I lose me temper."
Then when foremen saw Moses and Aaron they had narks on and they set abart 'em.
"Tha's a right daft chuff thee," they said. "Tha's dropped us right in it wi' Pharaoh goin an abart goin to mek a sacrifice. Tha's give him excuse to kill all job lot on us."
Nar Moses were a bit upset abart this, as tha would be, and he has a chat wi' God again.
"Nar then," says Moses. "What's tha go and send me here for if tha's goin to do nowt? How can tha treat thi own folk like this? It int right. There weren't no point sending me here int first place. Since I've gone and told Pharaoh what tha said he's bin like a bear wi' a sore bum. There's folk getting beat up every day and tha's done nowt."
But God weren't bothered by all this cos He had a plan and He knew what He were doing. And when God's got a plan tha'd best watch thi sen.

[Flaxton Flyer]

Ethan, my friend...

So far the only person who seems to have been insulted is you. And I don't really know why, because as you weren't even one of the posters whining on about LT, your little face should have been snot-free!

Just to be clear, I don't have favourites - I also hope to have insulted Yorkshiremen with the "whippets and black pudding" comments.

But I don't hear MD600 complaining, calling me an "arrogant to%%er" or threatening to kick my head in and leave me unconscious in a gutter!

Perhaps that's because he understands that I don't really think he has a flat cap and a whippet. Or that my fellow pilots actually do have snot running down their faces from crying about not receiving an Xmas card from LT.

I'l explain it to you, shall I? In the UK it's known as banter. I expect to get harrassed and abused in return in a similar fashion, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, "Arrogant to$$er" et al doesn't really count as banter, mon brave.

Perhaps it's just a foreigner thing? CAUTION - BANTER ALERT Are there any French or Dutch pilot websites you could move to where the nuances of the language wouldn't prove so much a problem for you? END BANTER

[EthanW]

Flaxton Flyer..Mr C is it? Your condescending tone is what offends me.."little face" ... "garlic eating chums" Even though I have never kicked another human being in the head..less a three legged cat down the stairs....Banter Alert ..perhaps you should call your magazine not LT news but 6&^*& news...Then you could pose for the cover picture...maybe while eating some of your dried pigs blood pudding...Banter ends.

I have spoken to LT twice in the past year..Feb 2010 and Nov 2010...my opinion of her has not changed...should I even get worked up over what is happening
at MDHi probably not esp being a "garlic chum" flyer ..but should I abandon my plan of buying an MD600..already did!
ew

ps. And on that note FlaxtonFlyer I add my apology for getting worked up over your tone..after all it is has no impact on my daily life and I already regret the time I wasted on it.

[Hughes500]

EthanW
Have you flown a 600 ?
What was it like ?

[wright123]

Been offline for a couple of days and just read the latest on the MD / LT debate, and its been veering a bit off course with all this Yorkshire banter!

I've flown a 600N and found it a bit vague on the pedals, and wouldnt buy one if I had the choice. Also grew up watching 240 Robert and Magnum and do think MD have a good a/c in the 500.

Its nowt to do with languages or what you can fly, every time I see a pic of LT I start thinking of Father Jack!!! it must be the long duties I'm doing I know ;)

I'm taking odds on the boeing lot taking over at 2/1,
or the teflon don man (Joep) sending his chap Henk back to sort LT out
at 10/1 ;)

[Flaxton Flyer]

Ethan - you didn't like my condescending tone
and I didn't like your aggresive tone but that's life, eh?
Different strokes for different folks.

As for the magazine...I'm happy to do the front
cover eating b.p. if you do the back cover wearing
beret and stripey jumper , riding a bicycle with onions
on the handlebars and eating cheese. LT can do the
centrespread and PAN can publish it. Deal?

In the meantime, happy flying whatever heli you
decide to fly. I'm sticking with the 902 of course.
(Although the Bell 222 is still my first love)

FF

[EthanW]

That sounds good to me ;)

[500e]

It all sounds sad to me:E

[PANews]

Send me the pictures...... I got a selection for page 3.... sorry centre spread...

[Flaxton Flyer]

500e......this will be a specialist publication,
not to everyone's taste. The sort of thing you
would peruse alone on the Internet after your
wife has gone to work. A bit like PA News come
to think of it!!:)

[lynx no more]

Centre spread of LT! now that would be a "Dont look Ethel" moment.
I didnt see the elusive LT card while wandering around a quiet hangar in Stav at xmas, but then I havent got a Specialist magic card which allows one to enter the upper sanctuary where it might have been on display on Jooeps desk :oh:

Cant wait to see the new pics of LT holding court at Heli Expo. Will she arrive in a 600N in a leopard skin or the mighty wellies this year? I sadly wont be there in the sunshine, but hope our american cousins can keep us all updated :E

[500e]

FF
Now I understand, Parental control button required :ok:

[Hughes500]

Yesterday was a great day for MD as for the first time ever I saw an Explorer over my house on deepest darkest Dartmoor, what a lovely site and erily quite as well. Seeing it is a yellow one I presume the Devon air ambulance is dead for a while ( 135) ?

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Hughes, the yellow Exploder may well have been G-LNAA, the ex-Lincs and Notts Air Ambo, which PAS use as the backup for the Trinity House contract. I have to agree that they are much more pleasant neighbours than the Exeter 117C2, though.

btw - you must've been out on Dartmoor at a different time from when I was walking the dogs. Couldn't see hand in front of face for all the horizontally-arriving wet stuff; wouldn't have wanted to be VFR around Cox Tor/ Princetown in that.

[Hughes500]

T & B
Saw her twice while out with my chain saw tackling some overgrown woods. Seem to earn more with chainsaw than I do flying these days !!!!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Ah, careful then please Hughes! One of my past tasks on the N Devon a/c was to one of the Moltons to pick up a gentleman who'd been bitten by one of those infernal things. He had absolutely every safety device/ clothing item you could think of, but still managed to get the undefended back of his leg. Makes me squirm to remember it! Mind you, he and his site team managed the incident very well - commendable under the circumstances.

[Bertie Thruster]

Thud; we attended similar 2 months ago in the wilds of Lincolnshire. The chain saw had 'brushed' his neck. At the base of the large open wound his carotid artery lay open, exposed, pulsing but undamaged! Talk about a millimeter from disaster!

G-LNAA; what a well looked after machine these last ten years! Will she forgive me? I almost feel guilty polishing our new one!

[Hughes500]

T and B
Yup I try very hard not to kill myself with the infernal thing, must be the most dangerous thing around, mind you I am just trying to buy a 600 at the moment ( honestly) as prices are pretty cheap !

[lynx no more]

A man on the inside of Joeps empire mentioned this snippet down at Stav. It just goes to show Joep and his merry ex RDM band are never far from LT and MD.
Is Henk going to pop through the back door to the sunshine once again?

dated 23/2/2011
MD Helicopters, Inc.: Board of Directors - BusinessWeek (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/board.asp?privcapId=6476462)

Aerospace and Defense

MD Helicopters, Inc.

and another mention here

undefined (undefined): Board Members Relationships - BusinessWeek (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/relationship.asp?personId=10331850&privcapId=6476462&previousCapId=6476462&previousTitle=MD%20Helicopters,%20Inc).

and here

Lynn Tilton Reviews | Board Member | MD Helicopters, Inc. Employee | Telonu (http://www.telonu.com/reviews/lynn-tilton-0)

Randy Kesterson Reviews | Chief Operating Officer | MD Helicopters, Inc. Employee | Telonu (http://www.telonu.com/reviews/randy-kesterson)

I wonder who is pulling the LT strings at MD after all ;)

[mfriskel]

One has to wonder when an "intrest" is a healthy one or when someone is being consumed by an intrest. The deal is- no-one understands why things are done the way they are "by" or "at" MD. No-one on the outside can influence it, so sit back and watch the show. The company is hers, the choice for the company to succed or fail is hers. If you want a 500 they will always be available on the used market at the very least. The sad part is that the loss of the Explorer could be the loss of the best light twin on the market today (argueably).

[PANews]

That little list of basic questions about the company, the 500 and 902 about sums up the basic questions that need to be asked when Ms T is on parade at the MDH Press Conference in a [relatively] few days time.

That is when it will be answered or avoided.

That is when the speculation can come onto the boil or off it.....

[ppheli]

Remember LT was given a "Living Legends in Aviation" award recently? - all the photos (http://photobucket.com/livinglegends2011) have just been posted online by the organisers.

There's this one (http://gi128.photobucket.com/groups/p191/QT35ODRLBC/IMG_0967.jpg) for the speech bubble writers among you, and this one (http://gi128.photobucket.com/groups/p191/QT35ODRLBC/IMG_0952.jpg) for all those who feels that LT needs your support

[PANews]

That reminds me.... Shrove Tuesday is coming up....

[ShyTorque]

Nice set of t.t..t...

teeth.

[Hughes500]

now whats that expression, seem to remember mutton and lamb being in it :(?

[Thomas coupling]

looks like a cocked up version of dolly parton :}

You'd think with all that money swilling around in her coffers, she'd be able to find a decent cosmetic surgeon by now.

[IntheTin]

PAN.......:ok::}

[props stopped]

PPheli, have they been airbrushed by any chance?

PAN :ok:

That surely is a broom behind her preteding to be an umbrella :}

[RVDT]

Don't leave just yet sports fans....................................

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[vfr440]

:yuk:, :}, :rolleyes: and :yuk:,:yuk:,:yuk: - VFR

[What Limits]

Anybody else nauseous in less than 8 seconds?

[Hughes500]

Didnt get as far as 8 secs. On the flip side got one of my 500's back with new set of blades, 140 kts at max continuous !

[EN48]

Anybody else nauseous in less than 8 seconds?


Well ... I actualy admire what she is doing/has done in a business sense. Been there myself and it is not easy. Wish she had less of a need to display her parts in the process. :hmm:

[mfriskel]

Smoothing that trough behind that really thick abrasion strip works wonders for that blade! I am curious if it would improve the HTC tail rotor blades as much? I doubt you could find a filler to stay attached to the tail rotor blades though.

[Thomas coupling]

Got it: Miss Piggy :ok:

[wright123]

Poor Kermit is all I can say :bored:

That dress was just like kitchen foil!

Whats that she just said....gone in with eyes closed? Not like her, was she given some duff info by any chance by the joker of submarine and tank fame?

[Hughes500]

mark
I have the htc blades with the bigger erosion strip on ! We have just filled in the tr blade valley, perhaps thats why she goes so quick ( 73psi 130 kts 2 up full fuel plus 12 degrees ). Really filled the valley in to stop paint coming off in that area, obviously a vortice there , which cant help lift

[mfriskel]

That big step off the trailing edge of the abrasion strip killed lift (I saw a 200 pound loss on a 520N) and CofP, lots of excess down-tab needed for collective loads, and that square patch that showed up on some blades (honey combe replacement for ribs) really ruined those blades. Filling and fairing seems to bring them back to performance. I wonder if anyone has shed the filler material in flight yet? Curious what change that makes in flight.
I thought the TR blades would have a problem from the abrasion strip too, that valley is just not right aerodynamically!

I just flew an old E with the old blades (main and tail), 65 psi got us 120 t0 125 kias, 2 pilots, full fuel and temps from 6F to 70F sea level to 6000

[ShyTorque]

Some folks are just too damned harsh, especially w.r.t. the unkind personal comments about her appearance. Without Ms. Tilton the company might have folded. So good on her in my book.