PPL(H) Training, a few questions

[myuserid]

Hope this is the correct category!

I would like to start my PPL(H) within the next year or so but I'm unsure how I should go about it. R22 training is cheaper than R44, I've been quoted 12K and a conversion to R44 2-3k. Or jump straight into the R44 16-20K, which do you think would be best to start with, am I right in thinking I will be able to fly both types if I go R22 then convert to R44?
FAA and JAA is another question, whats the difference?

How long will my PPL(H) last, is it 5 years, then what happens, would I have to start again?

Class 2 medial, I have high blood pressure for which I'm taking medication, could this be a problem, also how long do the medicals last, 5 years?
Could it be worth taking the medical before I start the PPL(H)?

Could and should I start on the ground exams now such as aviation law and get them out the way or should I wait?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks :ok:

[JTobias]

Hi

Take the medical before you start that way you're not committed to any high expenditure or wasted lessons if you should fail. The medical lasts for 2 years and you will have to have an ECG if/when you are over 40.

Can't see any reason to do your training on a 44 unless you really want to and the money is not an issue. If you want the 44 rating, do it afterwards that way you will have both on your ticket as they are classed as separate types.

I guess there would be no harm in starting the gound school but i'm not sure if you have to have the complete course finished within a specified time period. A flying school will confirm that particular one for you.

Your license will last for 5 years but you will be require to complete an LPC (License Proficiency Check) each year (for each type) to keep your ratings valid. After the 5 years you will need to renew the license - which is basically a paperwork excercise.

Why don't you pop into your local flying school and review the options with them. Just don't part with huge sums of cash in advance regardless of the discounts that may be on offer. Pay as you go!

Joel

[Whirlygig]

Your blood pressure may be problem in the issuing of a Class 2 medical so it would be best to get that done before you embark on any training. You can find a local medical examiner here (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=65&appid=21)

The length of time a medical certificate lasts depends on your age; the details will be on the cAA website.

The best thing to do would be to decide what you want to do with your licence once you've got it. If you plan to self fly hire afterwards, then learn on a type which is locally available. You have to learn on one type through the PPL course so you could learn on an R22 and later get an R44 rating. Or you could learn on a SChweizer or Enstrom if they are used by the school you wish to go to.

In order to keep your licence current you must fly two hours a year and take a licence proficiency test annually. The licence is valid for five years but all that means is that, providing you keep current, you pay more money to the CAA and get new pieces of paper. You don't have to redo the theory or full PPL test.

You need to have passed all the theory exams before you can take your PPL skill test and most schools will require that you pass Air Law and Navigation before you go solo. Best to talk to your school about how they operate their exams but there's no harm in getting the books now and starting studying.

The FAA is the USA equivalent of the CAA and JAA is the European equivalent. If you wish to fly in the UK by hiring a local school's machine, then you would probably be better off getting a JAA licence in the UK rather than going to the States and getting an FAA licence. There are many complex rules about flying UK registered aircraft in the UK under a foreign licence.

However, if you are looking to buy your own aircraft, then there may be more cost-effective ways of getting your licence.

Hope some of that helps; speak to your local flying school and google for many answers.

Cheers

Whirls

[JaredYng]

Some other things to consider regarding costs and quotes.

I just finished my private training here in the states. It cost me just under $25,000 all said and done. Keep in mind the quote you got sounds like it's based on the minimums required for a license and that's usually not the case. For example, here the minimum is 40 hours and I did it in 79 hours. This was because our school has extremely high standards to make the checkride a walk in the park(so to speak). It also depends on the type of aircraft you learn in. The R22 is going to be about the hardest to learn in and the Schweizer is a little easier. The R44 is a little easier yet(except slopes). I have friends that trained in the Schweizer at other schools and they still passed their checkride in about 60 hours. I also have friends here at my school that took 90+ hours to pass. So the quote is pretty much worthless because there are too many variables, the biggest being how proficient you are.

I would take the hourly rate for the R22 and finance at least 70 flight hours plus ground time.

I agree with them on the medical, get that done before you invest a single cent into flying.

As far as studying now, sure go ahead it wont hurt anything. It just may waste a bit of time if you can't get your medical so get that done ASAP.

As far as the aircraft and flying. I've flown the R22 and R44 and everyone I have talked to says if you can fly the 22 then you can fly anything. I'd recommend starting with the 22 and go from there unless you have excess money. Fly the 44 because you can afford it and because you WANT to fly it. Don't fly it thinking that it will make a difference in your flying capabilities for aircraft. Sure it will broaden your experience but it's not needed to be able to fly bigger ships.

[toptobottom]

Training in a 22 or a 44 is a time old debate! A lot depends on your budget and what you intend doing with your license once you've qualified. For me the R22 is great fun little machine, but obvioulsy slower than a 44 and only takes one passenger. The most important piece of advice is DON'T PAY UP FRONT FOR YOUR TRAINING! It may cost you slightly more in the long run, but there are lots of schools struggling at the moment...

Where exactly are you in the country?

[Pandalet]

Depending on how much you weigh, you may be forced to choose a 44 over a 22. This depends on how much your instructor weighs, too. If you're too heavy for a 22, it's worth considering a Schweizer, as they're usually cheaper than R44s, although there are fewer of them around.

For training in the UK, it's probably worth budgeting for 55-60 hours, as this seems to be what most people take. You want to budget at least 2 hours per month (ie. one lesson every 2 weeks), but really 1 lesson per week is a much better starting point. If you can live with saving up for a bit, doing the whole lot in an intensive course over a few weeks will bring your hours total down a lot.

[moosp]

If you can afford the time off work, take three to four weeks and do the whole course. You will probably do it in less hours, as the continuity every day helps with the flying exercises. That is probably the minimum time, I watched a guy in the US complete a PPL (H) in two weeks but he was rooted at the end of it and probably didn't enjoy it.

Frank Robinson recommends using the R44 for training. The Raven 1 is enough, you don't need a Raven II. This depends on you having the money to do it that way. The R22 was designed to be flown by experienced pilots and was not expected to be used for training. That said, if you learn on an R22 you will, as those above have noted, be able to convert to most helicopters.

All the other posts are good GEN as far as I know.

[JaredYng]

I flew and had grounds everyday, 6 days a week for 2 months. That's how long it took me to complete it and I didn't take any breaks.

[toptobottom]

if you learn on an R22 you will, as those above have noted, be able to convert to most helicopters:ooh:

Of course you can convert from an R22 to most helicopters! You can convert from any type to any other type given the right training!! Incidentally, the R22 was never designed specifically to be used by experienced pilots and WAS expected to be used for training...

Finally, I wouldn't recommend taking 4 weeks off to complete the course in the UK; the weather is just too unreliable and you'll spend half the time wishing you hadn't wasted all that holiday :ugh:

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi

Reference your high blood pressure, before booking a medical if you Phone the medical section of the CAA, explain the blood pressure situation and what medication you take to control it. They should be able to tell you if that would prevent you from getting a medical.

Two things might prevent you from getting a medical;
The effects of high blood pressure and / or the effects of the medication you take to control it.

[flap flap flap]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/75186-best-helicopter-training.html

[brett s]

I did my PPL(H) in less than month, flying every day when weather permitted - it definitely helps IMO. By the same token, more than a couple hours a day at first is probably wasting money, you'll get brain dead pretty quick.

Everyone is different in how long it takes - I got mine in 43 hours in the R22, there was another student at the same school that was 125+ hours before passing his checkride.

[Paddyviking]

Getting a medical first would be the sensible thing to do as others have said
The length and cost of getting your PPL(H) are greatly influenced by your ability to commit to lessons ie. training twice a week will give a much level of consistancy than say once or twice a month. The longer you spend away from the aircraft, the more time it takes to remember what you learned on the last lesson. Your financial situation and available time off will dictate lesson frequency. 'Little and often' to begin with, will in the long run reduce the amount of hours the course takes you.
Age plays a factor too (sadly) average ppl student in my experience completes course in 60-70 hours. Someone once remarked that this number of hours or double the students age was a pretty good guestimate and I have found it to be close enough but every student learns differently.
The R22 is an excellent training helicopter ( in my experience ) to learn to fly but restricts some exercises for the 'heavier student', 300CBi would then be more appropriate. Upgrading to the R44 would be a good additional rating to have once you have your PPL.
There is plenty of experience available to you on PPRuNe if you wish
all you have to do is ask -- and do ask alot of questions before you commit to anything.
In this climate it probably would be unwise to pay any large amount of money upfront for any course.

best of luck
Pv

[biggles99]

Myuserid.

the 22 is a great machine to learn to fly on subject to a few provisos.

1/ that you are less than 13 stone. You don't want to be at max all up weight when your instructor is on board.

2/ that you have quick reactions - if you ride a motorcycle you'll have an advantage. Being under the age of 40 will also help.

3/ that you are comfortable with turbulence and feeling relatively "exposed" to the elements.

4/ that your instructor has AT LEAST 1000hrs, preferably mostly on the R22. Do not learn in the R22 with a "baby" instructor. If he's got only 401 hours total time, he'll be as focussed on his ability to sort out the machine as he is on sorting out you.

If the answers to any one of the above is "no", then start on the R44. You will learn more rapidly.

I learnt on a R22, 16 years ago, and I still fly them today - it's a fantastic machine.

Hope this helps,

Big Ls.

[JaredYng]

I disagree with #4 in the previous post. My private instructor only had a few hundred hours and I was his first student as a CFI. I felt completely safe with him and he had great control of every situation I put him in. I think it's based on the pilots skills as opposed to the number of hours he/she has. Just like it takes some people 50 hours and others 125 hours to get their private.

Not to mention, here in the states you won't see many 1,000+ hour instructors. By the time they've hit 1,000 or 1,500 hours they are moving on to other jobs.

[flap flap flap]

PLEASE not the "your instructor needs 1,000 hours" nonsense again. If you have an FI rating, you're good enough to teach a PPL. End of story.

[DBChopper]

My two penn'orth: :)

1/ that you are less than 13 stone. You don't want to be at max all up weight when your instructor is on board

I'm over 13 stone. Yes, it may mean that you have to choose an instructor more carefully, but as long as you pay close attention to weight & balance (or at least as long as your FI does in the early stages) then no problem.

2/ that you have quick reactions - if you ride a motorcycle you'll have an advantage. Being under the age of 40 will also help.

That's a bit like saying "knowing how to fly a helicopter will help." ;) I know what you mean, but anyone with reactions quick enough to drive a car to a good standard and who is willing to put the effort in and learn, should be able to learn to control a helicopter.

3/ that you are comfortable with turbulence and feeling relatively "exposed" to the elements.

That will come with gradual exposure and experience and is part of the learning process anyway. Until you have flown in a light aircraft/helicopter then you cannot know how that feels and how it will affect you. Most folk adjust very well.

4/ that your instructor has AT LEAST 1000hrs, preferably mostly on the R22. Do not learn in the R22 with a "baby" instructor. If he's got only 401 hours total time, he'll be as focussed on his ability to sort out the machine as he is on sorting out you.

1000 is just a number. Yes, I know it gives some indication as to the experience of the instructor, but one of the best instructors I have flown with has only recently completed his FI course, so personally I'd pay no attention to this.

I still fly them today - it's a fantastic machine Ahaa - now we agree :ok:

[Whirlygig]

2/ that you have quick reactions - if you ride a motorcycle you'll have an advantage. Being under the age of 40 will also help.
I've ridden a motorbike for over 25 years and was under 40 when I did my PPL; neither of which helped me learn to hover and talk. :}

Cheers

Whirls

[biggles99]

Whirls,

Obviously I've struck a raw nerve with some of you, my apologies!

As a motorcyclist, you must know what I mean, especially after 25 years?

You learn to use the road as if everything and anything is going to try and kill you.

That sharpens your reactions and this natural wariness makes your reactions more intuitive when you need to make an instant decision.

As for hovvering, it took me 4 hours of muscle-wrenching frustration before I mastered it. You can judge for yourselves on the art of talking!

I stick by what I said: the R22 is a fabulous aircraft to learn in subject to a few provisos.

I didn't say that you shouldn't learn with a newly-qualified instructor, nor that they must have 1000 hours to be any good.

But if you find a fantastic instructor with not many hours on the R22, you should consider learning in a different aircraft.

Frank Robinson is on record as saying two things about the R22:

1/ it was never intended as a training machine
2/ he wouldn't let a member of his family fly in one with a pilot who had less than 400 hours on type.

Events and history have proved the R22 to be a great training machine despite everything, but if Mr Robinson is of this opinion, I doubt that I'm the only one who shares his viewpoint.

Big Ls
(1500 hours in a R22 and loved everyone of them).

[Whirlygig]

Oh dear Big Ls - try saying, "ha-ha, very funny"! :}

No apologies required, no raw nerves but I do actually disagree with motorcycling being an advantage. The throttle's operated with the wrong hand and twists the wrong way for a start. As for reactions? Nah, not buying that. One should never get yourself into a situation on a motorbike where fast reactions are required! :ok:

And it certainly took me many more hours than 4 to "master" hovering; more like 246 and even then, not sure I have! ;)

Cheers

Whirls

[4ftHover]

Biggles

I'm 15 stone and 6ft 4 never had a problem in the 22 during my PPL.

[RMK]

A lot of good (and correct info in the above posts). I hold both FAA & JAA PPL(H) and here are some points to note:

It seems the average number of hours for a PPL (H) completion is in the 60ish hour range, so budget on that number. The objective is to become a good pilot, not how fast you can get through training. I found it far more cost beneficial to do my initial training in the US and get my FAA PPL followed by the 5hr conversion (to get the SFAR endorsement) for the R44. Then do conversion training for the JAA PPL here in the UK. It was also more fun and less stressful. Once you have your FAA, you can still fly in the UK while waiting on the British weather to give you a break to get your lessons in. Some notes:

· The JAA cross-country has longer distance requirements, so make certain that your FAA cross-country experience meets or exceeds the JAA requirements. Compare all the FAA/JAA requirements so you don’t fall short. Very similar but with two main differences: FAA includes 3hrs night flying and JAA includes 5hrs “instrument awareness” training (flying with goggles so that you only see the instruments). Both are good for you.
· The FAA R44 endorsement is not technically a “type rating” as under the JAA. You can only get a JAA recognised type rating if the US training was done at an approved Type Rating Training Organisation (TRTO) - good luck finding one. For the JAA, whatever helicopter you take your exam in you get that type rating. So what I did was take my JAA PPL exam flight in the R44, so that any additional flying for the R22 type rating would be at lower rates.
· Combine your medical visits for the FAA ClassIII Medical and JAA ClassII with the same doctor & visit. There are a couple physicians in the UK that can do both on the same visit saving time and money both initially and every couple years in the future as then your expiry dates are close to synchronised
· Ground exams? Yes, start reading now but keep them separate (FAA & JAA) so that you don’t confuse the location distinct info. FAA is one big computer based exam and the JAA is seven separate pen&pencil exams with an oral radio license exam (FAA has no separate radio license at PPL level). I’d suggest getting the ground exams out of the way, that way during training you can concentrate on the flying, which you will find more tiring than expected, especially if you are doing multiple training flights a day.
· Size (R22 vs R44): I weigh 90kg and most of my training in FL was done by a fairly stocky Scottish bloke. If you fit in R22 comfortably and are in W&B, that good enough. You don’t need full fuel. The R22 flies over 3hrs on full fuel, that’s a long damn lesson? This is training by yourself with an instructor. There is no need to impress friends/family with how nice the helicopter is, save that for when you have your license. Of course if money is no object, choose neither and train in an Agusta 109
· Better trainer? Don’t get these PPRune folk started on that topic, it will go on for pages. I will note that if you can autorotate the R22 well, you will find a R44 auto quite easy and very forgiving. NOT the other way around.
· Price (US vs UK): Today we’re at 1.54 GBP/USD. I got three-bedroom suites for $75/nite and convertible sportcars for 30/day. Florida/California is cheap and getting cheaper.
· Rental once you’re licensed? Technically, any UK location can SFH to a FAA PPL. However not all do. Seems a bit of a coin toss as to who is OK with it.
· One silly difference, upon completing you FAA exam ride you get a Temporary Airman Certificate with which you can fly immediately. Upon completing your JAA exam ride, you can’t technically fly until your paperwork is processed by the CAA and you receive your license in the post. Get used to being displeased with CAA – that’s only the start.

As for Frank’s comments, when you’re the owner of the world’s largest civilian helicopter company, I believe many of your statements are guided by your lawyers and not necessarily your own views. Once licensed, I would highly recommend the Robinson Safety Course in California. The overall cost is less than the flying time you get included.

Have fun

[Whirlygig]

Upon completing your JAA exam ride, you can’t technically fly until your paperwork is processed by the CAA
Not quite true; you can't take passengers but you can still fly with an instructor or fly solo on your instructor's ticket (so if you SFH, an instructor has to be around).

Cheers

Whirls

[Paddyviking]

Whirls
Have to agree with you on point about motorbikes and throttle,
I drove to my lessons on my motorbike (many moons ago) to learn
to fly the R22 which then had no 'gov' and I remember the constant
confusion in my mind as to which way to turn the throttle.
But still love the little heli to bits


Pv

[DBChopper]

I also had many, many thousands of motorcycling miles under my belt before learning to fly helicopters and the directing of twisting the throttle caused me no end of problems, despite my instructor's insistance that it shouldn't matter as it was the "wrong hand." He also didn't like me wearing my leathers in the '22, but I think he was just weird. :O

[toptobottom]

Like DBChopper, I had spent many thousands of miles in the saddle and always turned up on my bike for my R22 heli lesson. One face I'll never forget was that of my instructor when I did the sprag clutch check by snapping the throttle closed - or open in my case... :ooh:

[seang]

DB
I think your instructor would have been more weird if he DID like you wearing leathers in the cockpit. Thanks for the warning motorcycle drivers, I shall now ask any R22 pilot if they ride a bike before I climb in with them, given your confessions about which way to twist the throttle. I should add "ha ha" just to confirm that I am joking, knowing how easy it is to get slaughtered on this site
best wishes
Sean (former speedway rider and R22 pilot who has broken more bones on the speedway track than in a helicopter, so far)

[Pandalet]

Chalk me up to the 'biker/throttle goes the wrong way' thing too. I also learned to fly in armoured motorbike boots, as my only transport was the bike back then. For ages afterwards, it felt wierd flying in anything else!

[tyl3r]

R22/ZX-6R here. Always thought of the collective/heli throttle as a dumbbell curl-type manoeuvre and have not (yet) ever made that mistake. Sod's law I'm in for a treat next flight. :uhoh:

[DBChopper]

Sean (former speedway rider and R22 pilot who has broken more bones on the speedway track than in a helicopter, so far)

And long may that continue! :ok:

[seang]

Thanks DB
despite the broken bones, I'd do it all again. The thrill of the race, the smell of Castrol R, the crack in the pits and the fact that people actually paid to come and watch us race. I could never get my head around that.
Best wishes

PS Myuserid, sorry, this twist-grip throttle debate probably isn't helping you much. Good luck with whatever you decide and above all, have lots of fun
Sean

[pda1]

Hi,

I have around 180 hours on fixed wing aircraft and microlights. I'm looking at completing a PPL(H). Could anyone recommend a school, I live in Hampshire but would be willing to travel further afield. I have looked at Fast at Thruxton and Elite and Pheonix at Goodwood. It would appear hourly rate is around £280-300 ph on the R22, including VAT, landing fees etc. Is this the going rate, or is there anywhere else more cost effective?

Many thanks

[FLY 7]

Never been there, but I've heard Bournemouth is quite good, and they have S300s.

These might be a bit more expensive than the R22s, but could work out more cost effective in the longer term. And, they are widely regarded as the best training helicopter.

good luck

[photex]

Agree about Bournemouth Helicopters, ask for some time with Richard if you fly down there he's a very good instructor.

I would avoid Helicentre Aviation down there though, or anywhere else for that matter.

[jonwilson]

Photex,

could you elaborate as to why you would avoid Helicentre at Bournemouth or anywhere else?

Other than those already mentioned there is also Vanguard Helicopters at Henstridge, although it's a bit further. They fly Enstrom's I believe.

[Pandalet]

Be a little careful choosing which aircraft you train in - the 300 is, by all accounts, a much easier and more benign aircraft to learn in, but there are rather more Robbies around (both R22 and R44). The best training aircraft for you will depend largely on what you plan to do once you're trained; if you're planning to transition to an R44 pretty much straight away, or money is an issue for you, you're probably better off training in an R22. Alternately, if you're planning to SFH from your local school and fly yourself around for the foreseeable future, and they run 300s, then you're probably better off sticking with that.

[RookieCaptain]

I wish I paid more attention to PPRune than my desire to learn to fly Helicopters. Thank you guys for your contribution i enjoyed reading the posts even after my PPL. On the positive side I passed in 41 hours in the R22 with no motorcycle experience. What really helped was my fixed wing background. Simply I can't afford to train in R44 and I think it's more fun in the 22. Instructors at Helicopter Services based at Wycome Air Park are very helpful.

[DennisK]

Good to hear 'Rookie Captain' qualified for private licence in 41 hours. (just 2over the fixed wing min of 39) ... my last five 'ab initio' students completed the syllabus and passed their Skills Test in 46 hrs, 45 hrs, 45hrs, 47hrs and 48 hrs. Types were Enstrom 280, Enstrom 28A, MD 520, Enstrom 28A and Sikorsky 300. Probably had something to do with the fact that four were teenagers ... two being 17 on the day they passed the Skills Test on both fixed wing AND rotary. All flew almost continuously throughout the course. Safe flying to all. DRK