Now moorabbin gets its own anti-airport mob

[airspace alpha]

Have a look at this site:

http://www.planecrashzone.com/ (http://www.planecrashzone.com/)

What a bunch of d*ckheads! These guys have a serious problem with aviation, ANY aviation, at Moorabbin.

What’s caused them to put up this site? Well the Moorabbin Airport Master Plan is out for public comments and, shock horror, it actually says that the airport will have the cheek to fulfill its role as an airport: ie: a base for aircraft to fly from. They obviously don’t like this one little bit.

If the government did what they want, which is:


A discontinuation of all training flights and all forms of repeated low altitude circuit flying.
An immediate cap on aircraft movements and then a 30% reduction to levels which existed before the airport was privatised.
Considerably improved transparency of information and publication of data on all incidents which have the potential to compromise aircraft, airport or community safety.
A moratorium on use of the airport by jets, corporate aircraft, regional airlines and other multi-seat commercial operations.
No night or early morning flights and no arrivals or departures when the Moorabbin control tower is not in operation.
Tighter enforcement of civil aviation regulations and manditory use of tracking transponders by all aircraft using the Moorabbin airspace as a form of basic pilot accountability and so that the public has some way of identifying and referring to aircraft.
A compulsory fly friendly policy prepared in consultation with the local community with particular attention to repetitive aircraft movements and helicopter activity.
Then the airport might, just might, be able to support the occasional Tiger Moth. But hang on- didn’t they complain about that as well?

[VH-XXX]

I like this part.

This chopper is actually the TRAFFIC WATCH chopper that you see on the news in the morning!

It was probably hovering over an accident below.

Incidentally I don't agree with the idea of operating the R44 at night on Traffic duties being a single engine but under the guise of a PRIVATE flight!

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/heli.jpg

[Flash_11]

what a crock of s&^t, I just love how a plane crash landing or running of the rwy is a threat to the public in their homes.

Also do these twits drive cars - I'm more concerned at being cleaned up be some ******** on the road than a plane falling from the sky.

[Darkrampage]

Bunch of morons running that website, if they were the sort of people running our country we would still be getting around in a horse and cart!

[PlankBlender]

Here's the name, address, email and home phone number of the #$%@ who's put up the site -- from the publicly available whois.com, the @#$%@ wasn't clever enough to rent the site through an anonymous third party.

It's probably just an pathetic ill-thought out attempt to raise the value of the house he bought at a discount, which combined with the 110% mortgages of the past and the recent falls in real property market values may have put him in negative equity .. ah well, the site, spelling, obvious lack of understanding of the facts and ludicrous (even for the usual airport haters) demands suggest he's not a real threat to anyone, especially not against an airport corporation who is sitting on some of the largest and most active training schools in the country..

Mr Williams if I were you I would think seriously before putting my personal information out there for all to see and then embarking on a crusade that has the potential of endangering the livelihoods of hundreds of people. :ugh:

First Name..........: Craig
Last Name...........: Williams
Address Line 1......: 50 Bowman St
Address Line 2......:
City................: Aspendale
Country.............: AU
State...............: VIC
Post Code...........: 3195
Phone...............: (+61) 395909294
Fax.................: (+)
Email Address.......: williams.craigr @ gmail.com

[tmpffisch]

The guy lives on the beach, south of Woodlands GC. That puts him well away from circuit training, possibly well away of the western circuit too and would only have to deal with people joining downwind 17R from Carrum (remaining over the water until Mordialloc Pier which he is south of....)

I can hear the cries now. "Moorabbin Airport is devaluing our beachfront properties..."

[Track5milefinal]

What is even more disturbing about this chart is that there was a helicopter spotted in the Moorabbin airport airspace at the same time but it doesnt show on the chart. The helicopter was flying well below the height required by Civil Aviation Regulations. It was joy riding along the busy breach. The reason it can't be seen here (WebTrak) is because it obviously had its transponder turned off. (By the time this chart was produced it appears word had gotten around about City of Kingston residents making their own records of plane and helicopter movements and some pilots had obviously made a conscious decision to "hide" from the charts.


Obviously no fickin clue whatsoever
Anyone called this fruitloop yet?:}

[WannaBeBiggles]

I always find it ironic when people bitch and moan about airports, noise and "presumed" risk when they frikkin well bought property fully knowing that there is an airport near by! Unless of course the guy bought before 1949... :suspect:


Most people are shocked to learn that there is roughly the same chance of death by culpable driving in the city of Kingston as there is of death by aircraft crash.


What a bunch of CROCK! How the hell did he come up with that nugget of information? :ugh:

Thats like saying you have "roughly" the same chance of instantaneously combusting than you do of being hit by a rogue plane.

Over Half of these accidents he quotes happened within the airport boundary, and as we all know a media quote of "Crash landing" often just means a heavy landing, or even a tire blow out on landing.
Though of course the bounce of a heavy landing, when combined with a solar flare, right at the instance gravity reduces 80% and combined with a 400km/h wind gust *COULD* blow the aircraft right over the fence and in to a residential area...:}


Of course the difference is people make a decision to venture onto the roads.


That may be it, but I wonder if this tosser has ever flown with an airline. That would have been his choice and I'm sure he'd be rather surprised how many of the guys and girls upfront did their training at YMMB.

[Back Pressure]

Not to worry - looks like someone has hacked the site or something - ain't workin too well now :E

PS. didn't realise I was one of the 'privileged few' !! Thought I worked my @rse off for each and every hour of flight time.

[notmyC150v2]

Almost all of the flights from Moorabbin Airport are recreational or for sightseeing or training.

So it’s essentially an exclusive club and in many respects is no different from local boating clubs. Perhaps the only difference is that it is more expensive to moor a boat or launch from a Council ramp than it is to park your half million dollar plane at Moorabbin aerodrome and land and take off.

Also there are more restrictions on noisy fast boats. There are strict laws specifically designed to protect the amenity and safety of the public. You stand a much greater chance of being fined for breaking boating regulations than you do for flying dangerously in your noisy plane or helicopter.

The good news for most plane and helicopter owners is they don’t live in the City of Kingston and their children go to private schools in Melbourne’s inner East so they are quite safe from crashing aircraft and training pilots.



Nothing like a gross generalisation expressed in hysterical tones to make an argument worthless.

Now if you will all excuse me I am off in my Ferrari to pick up my kids from the Snobbery Academy For The Filthy Rich... :ugh:

[YPJT]

It forgot to mention - Craig is an absolute plonker

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Amazing how with all those movements every day (and I do admit there are a lot) there are less than one fatality per year?

That's pretty good flying then!

Try this one for the Resident's Association

[email protected]

[socks and thongs]

I was surprised when I logged on to this thread to find professionals reduced to personal attacks on a guy who has done nothing more than expand the truth to raise awareness of this growing problem of falling aeroplanes.


Now clearly I don't actually mean any of the above. It is a shame people such as craigo create a target audience of the lowest common denominator and undo all the work that the real facts actually indicate. God help us people would listen to the truth.

We all know this has nothing to do with safety as opposed to old mate's concern for his property price. He almost convinced me with the Kmart catalogue profile shot but just not quite......

[jatayu]

I digress a little from the focus of this thread, but for those who are not aware, this thread probably generated an amount of visibilty for their website, that could not even be bought.

The way this works is that google (or any other search engine robot) is forever refreshing links to pprune pages- because they are so popular. It inherently thinks that any links, specialy active ones, published on their pages would be important too, and starts ranking those pages above others.

So if you do not particularly wish any good for the links you are publishing, please do not post them directly. Other indirect (probably crude) methods such as (www dot otherwebsite dot com) would probably work as well

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I have just had a look at your website and I am appalled!

Let me point out a few things for you.

ALERTS!
So in very real terms we live under many almost fatalities and almost aircraft crashes that we are never told about.

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

How many times have you stopped at a RED light! Only to see many cars cross your path! Hmm could that RED light have been an ALERT!

I wonder how many ALMOST CRASHES you have in your car on your way to work!

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!

BREAKING THE RULES

Planes and helicopters can regularly breach civil aviation regulations without penalty or change in their behaviour

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

After each CAR Regulation is a note stating that an offence against this CAR will incur a penalty!

Therefore if people are caught they can be prosecuted. Just like when people speed in their cars

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!

INCIDENTS

Yet as a community we have no regular and specific information about the type of incidents associated with the Moorabbin airport

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

The ATSB issue routine reports on what incidents where reported. It is mandatory to report these incidents.

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!

BIRDS

Birds cause planes to crash

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

Only on the rare occasion where a flog of birds is ingested into aircraft engines will they bring down a plane. A strike on a wing or body of the fuselage may only result in slight damaged. That picture is of an aircraft that crashed? Or landed safely?

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!

INEXPERIENCED PILOTS

And believe it or not there is a requirement for only two hours of flight instrument training for trainee pilots

This paragraph is simply UNTRUE

The two hours of instrument time you mention is a requirement to be met to gain a GFPT, a GPFT and an initial PPL or CPL is a VISUAL licence. Ie, eyes outside the window, as opposed to instrument time which is eyes on the panel.

No student is allowed to fly solo until he or she has met a certain standard. Even then until they obtain their PPL or CPL they are only permitted to fly solo under the supervision of an instructor. Believe it or not. Your 747 airline captain once flew solo for the first time too. He wasn’t born with all the experience!

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!


STUNT AND FORMATION FLYING

Believe it or not there is also stunt and formation flying over the suburbs of Kingston.

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

There is a designated aerobatic training area away from built up locations, Formation training is done in this area. Once qualified they are able to fly en-route anywhere within Australia. If you saw 5 or 6 Air Force fighter jets in formation over your house would you think that was dangerous too?

The picture you show of the three Piper PA28 Warriors and you say they turned off their transponders so they couldn’t be tracked was also UNTRUE.

One aircraft would have theirs turned on, the other two would be off. This is because the Air Traffic Control system would be making a lot of noise if three transponders where on that close. Also the call sign of the lead aircraft would indicate that there were three aircraft in the formation. That is a perfectly LEAGLE flight. Also please tell me do have access to SSR? I ask because I would like to know how you are able to tell if a Transponder is on or off?

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!

FLYING OVER PUBLIC GATHERINGS

The flying was not only dangerous and inconsiderate but further demonstrated the way in which the safety and amenity of residents and children in the City of Kingston is regularly compromised.

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

Where possible aircraft will always avoid flying over a public gathering, however sometimes it is required to do so in the course of taking-off or landing. It is not a dangerous practice. What your website is doing is a dangerous practice!

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!

TERRORISM

The airport facilities are poorly patrolled and planes and helicopters are stored in the open ready for the taking

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

There are security fences all around the apron, there is also Federal Police Patrols at Moorabbin airport. There are also aircraft locks fitted to prevent them from being “taken”

I suggest YOU try and “take” an aeroplane, see how “easy” it is!

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!

THE REPAIR AND MAINTENANCE REGULATIONS ARE SOFTER

what's more you don't have to have a proper engineers licence to service many of the smaller planes.

That paragraph is simply UNTRUE

These regulations are not specific to airports, but aircraft Australia wide.
All General Aviation Aircraft of which 95% of Moorabbins aircraft are, MUST be serviced by a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. Only Micro lights and Ultra lights are exempt from this.

That paragraph is nothing but Today Tonight quality scaremongering!


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Freewheel]

Beast,

I hate to be a pedant, but the emphasis on the misspelt 'LEGAL' was a bit jarring.

Otherwise, superb!

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

Daniel Thank you for your email.

Firstly and much to the surprise of most pilots that write to us, you would be hard pressed to find anything on the website which is incorrect and not supported in some way by documents and or evidence.
______________
ALERTS Yes if we were talking about car crashes then cars running red lights would be a good example of a leading indicator of road fatalities.

REGULATIONS Yes there are penalties in the CAR but unlike the road experience it is necessary to establish a full legal case before proper CAR penalties can be considered. CASA is running scared because it was bullied by pilots over being judge, jury and executioner in the past and even if this legacy didn't exist it is too short of investigators to do anything about most of the CAR breaches. Our members have all too often encountered 1) difficulty getting CASA to consider obvious breaches, 2) difficulty gathering information on the offending aircraft because it is now trendy to keep transponders turned off and then 3) after photographs and Air Services Charts have conclusively established a breach there is a flurry of excuses about cloud cover or stray birds or freak winds. The CAR are an amazing set of leaky regulations and they are exploited daily over the City of Kingston (probably in most cases out of ignorance).

INCIDENTS I will look further into your comment about incidents but I believe you might be thinking about serious incidents. All incidents are leading indicators of an unsafe situation and the public has the right to know about them.

BIRDS Birds can bring down planes. The airport is in a recognised bird hazard area. The airport warns pilots about the birds. Birds are another leading indicator of an unsafe situation.

INEXPERIENCED PILOTS There is no argument about the skies over the City of Kingston being full of inexperienced pilots. Yes all pilots need to learn somewhere. Given the mobility of planes one might ask why training has to be over 150,000 people. In moderation it might be possible to train at Moorabbin but we are no longer talking moderation, there are hundreds of thousands of circuits completedover the residents of Kingston.

STUNTS AND FORMATION Sorry but the picture on the website was taken over Aspendale and none of the planes had their transponders turned on. None of the planes appeared on Air Services Charts. Yes I would consider 5 or 6 jet fighter flying over my house at low altitude a dangerous event.

FLYING OVER PUBLIC GATHERINGS When there are hundreds or thousands of movements in one day and there are five or more options for approaching the airport it is very easy to identify planes which are doing the wrong thing. Two planes which approach within a minute of two of each other would have very similar flying conditions. If one chooses to fly over an event and the other is courteous enough to make a detour of a hundred feet or so then the matter becomes pretty self evident as it was on the days in question.

TERRORISM Actually it is amazingly easy to approach planes and helicopters at the airport aside from the lack of screening of baggage and the token screening of "student pilots".

THE REPAIR AND MAINTENANCE REGULATIONS ARE SOFTER Under 544kg this is a fact. We are talking about many single engine planes.

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

The Incidents include everything from Bird Strikes, to major crashes.

The formation flying was a LEGAL flight!

There are a total of 9905 single engine aeroplanes and helicopters on the aircraft register

There are 9546 that that have a MTOW of more than 545kg

There are 359 single engine aeroplanes on the register that have a MTOW less than 545kg.

Therefore there is only a total of 3.6% of all single engine aircraft fall into that category of maintenance

Further to that there are 83 such aircraft registered in Victoria!

Meaning a total of 0.8% of aircraft below 545kg appear in the skies of Victoria ALL of Victoria including the country areas that you wish ALL aircraft would only fly over.

So can you tell me when 0.8% became MANY?!

[tipsy2]

IRON MAIDEN I suggest you NEVER get into a discussion or argument with an idiot.

They will beat you every time with skill and experience.

tipsy

[Stationair8]

Craig is a also president of the Mentone branch of the CWA, dates a number of supermodels, a past president of the Eastern Suburbs Trainspotters Guild and has three friends on his facebook page.

[Freewheel]

Beast,

I'm sorry to say that while this attitude should be fought at every turn, doing it directly is rarely going to convince the individual. It's a bit like trying to convince Eddie McGuire that now is not a good time for an ad break......


Far better to identify the places the campaign is directed and counter his argument with fact and logic.


Simply put, whinging about airports are an easy way to;

a) get your ego stroked
b) further your "profile" for other tasks in live
c) raise your self esteem by demeaning others. The drama over the off target Gruen Transfer ad is a case in point.

Never mind, he'll go away when he realises he's being ignored.

[Cap'n Arrr]

Bahahahahaha :D

I love the way he talks like he knows stuff!:ok:

Cracks me up!

Ask any CFI of any large/busy flying school just how 'hard' it is for CASA to send off an ESIR :ugh:

I love his explanation of birds. It just oozes with logic. By the same logic:

People can rob banks - Melbourne has banks - therefore the amount of banks in melbourne are a leading indicator of the incredible amount of robberies that are going to happen.

Inexperience - given that you had a choice where to build, why the f:mad:k live near a training airport if it concerns you? When was the last time you were personally affected by an accident solely related to a lack of experience, and does this happen daily, weekly, monthly or f:mad:king never?:ugh:

Stunts etc - dunno the airspace, but if it isn't class C they dont even need to own a transponder. Also, i didn't know aircraft were on airservices charts. Next time I'm lost ill check my map for the nearest blue duchess :ugh:

Terrorism - what f:mad:king baggage is on a lesson of circuits? A couple oil bottles and a map? Never mind that all foreign students are screened by AFP as part of their visa process. Even if they were, why would a terrorist choose a 152 when there are much bigger things around? Why would a terrorist even bother with a plane when a light truck full of explosives is easier and more damaging?:ugh:

Half an idea, no common sense, and 30 gallons of f:mad:kwittery

Great for the comic value though. It'd be funnier if it didn't speak volumes about how ignorant the vocal minority can be:rolleyes:

Fact is the only way to beat these people. Great example with the 544kg aircraft on the register. If you can plainly prove their argument is bullsh:mad:t, then noone will take them seriously.