Indulgence flights anyone?

[craigJ]

All,

I'm planning on travelling to the USA some time in August or early September.

While looking through (somewhat expensive) flights someone me that while he was serving (some time ago) he was able to get 'indulgence flights' to the states, in seats that would otherwise be empty. It would not matter where in the states, as I could get a connection to my final destination. Do such flights still occur? If so, how do I go about organising it? I realise this is probably a long shot, but I thought it would be worth asking!

Any help much appreciated!

Craig

[Wader2]

craigJ, and your present connection with the Services?

[craigJ]

RAF reserves, I realise that indulgence flights might only be open to full time personnel. But I thought, if you dont ask...

[Wader2]

Previous service in
armed forces of defence departments, or current service in the reserve,
auxiliary, territorial or pre-entry cadet forces (OTC, UAS, URNU) is not a
qualification.

So no dice.

[craigJ]

thank you :)

[Bob Viking]

So are there still regular indulgence flights to the US then?!
Can I take the wife and kid?!
BV
(Current serving RAF)
:p

[Krueger Flap]

I don't know about flights to the US, but - at a slight tangent to the thread - I hear that the scheme is to be opened up to siblings of serving personnel some time soon. This may be just applicable to my theatre but has anyone got any gen on this?

[Tankertrashnav]

Interestingly the US military allow ex-service personnel, and I believe their families, to make indulgence flights. (this certainly used to be the case). This is indicative of the attitude to military "vets" in the USA in marked contrast to the situation here where its a case of "thanks for your years of loyal service, now sod-off."

[Mr C Hinecap]

We don't have that many flights going anywhere nice any more - and you have to have the wherewithall to get back without them anyway. Given how few flights there are and how old and broken the fleet is, would you really want to risk getting stranded and having to pay about 3x over the odd for that short notice one way ticket to get home? Just pay and let your travel insurance take the strain.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mr C, I tend to agree it is not worth the hastle and risk.

Will you arrive for that holiday booking?

Will you arrive where you thought you would?

If you fly back civ how will you get home from the airport etc etc?

I indulged once when I was in Cyprus. We had priority and it was over Christmas. They were very good and we got the return tickets for a Herc waiting at home.

At Lyneham they put DAC on the flight and that was that. In those days though the system counted for something and at short notice a Comet route trainer was laid on :)

[Spurlash2]

Cyprus, ASI and MPA is all you get these days. And then, no guarantee.

PN and Mr C have said it all.

[Yeller_Gait]

If you have to pay for a civvy flight back (as a one way journey) it will cost you about 90% of the cost of a return flight anyway, so just pay for the return flight in the first place. You will have a much better chance of getting there and back on time as well.

Y_G

[Wycombe]

Tankertrash....

I believe the US scheme to which you refer is known as "Space A" (Space Available).

During my years as a RIAT volunteer, we often dealt with many ageing Americans who arrived at Fairford following a cheap ride to the UK aboard the visiting transports, using this scheme.

[Pontius Navigator]

I believe the US scheme to which you refer is known as "Space A" (Space Available)..

I was once at Dover AFB and there was an LED ticker running continually in departures that showed space available anywhere on the US network.

You might want to get to Fairchild but saw there was a flight to Riverside. If you thought you had a better chance of a flight from Riverside to fairchild then you could grab that one or wait for a better offer.

Once, in Kef, there was an ex-USAAF airman. He had hitched in from Thule I think but there were no onward flights to Europe. He was becoming a regular lounge lizard in the O-club and a right RPITA to the P3 guys. They invoked the RAF-MAC agreement and we flew him to UK in a Nimrod.

We explained the flight would take 9 hours which he thought was much longer than it took in a B25. Several hours into the flight and still 300 miles from Iceland the message had still not sunk in.

Eventually he was driven to the main gate at ISK and pointed in the direction of the station.:}

[BEagle]

I was once approached at Incirlik by a Spam LTC who was looking for a trip to Mildenhall.

The Movers were unable to help as they didn't really deal with tankers and it would have confused the heck out of Upavon's truckie system anyway. So, ever keen to help an ally, I rang Starfleet on what was then a very rare animal, my personal GSM phone. The man said yes, so welcome aboard the mighty brown FunBus, Colonel.

But what really peeved me was that the miserable sod never even said thankyou. Ah well, I suppose it takes all types.....

[Aeronut]

Another problem with indulgence flights is that the staff repsonsible for the administration most likely have other duties and simply don't appear to care. Having been fobbed off that that there was no flight and then no space, I had to use specialist knowledge -including flight numbers, aircraft allocations, marks, configurations, roles and known numbers on the detachment to convincve them they needed to do something to get Mrs Aeronut onboard.

Heaven help those that aren't at the coal face with all the gen.

Sorry CraigJ. I wish it were better. A couple of those trips in a career and we would secure so much more goodwill from volunteers such as yourself.

Have a good trip safe in the knowledge you can expect what you paid for.

[Biggus]

In years gone past there used to be 50 seats booked 3 times a week on BA flights to Washington, which people could apply for using the standard indulgence method.

The same was true for BA flights to Hong Kong (well I did say it was years ago).

While I can fully appreciate that the HK route is no more, given the amount of military personnel visiting Washington on a regular basis, embassy staff, Pentagon visits, etc, is there currently anything in place for getting UK military personnel to the USA?

[dallas]

We don't have that many flights going anywhere nice any more - and you have to have the wherewithall to get back without them anyway. Given how few flights there are and how old and broken the fleet is, would you really want to risk getting stranded and having to pay about 3x over the odd for that short notice one way ticket to get home? Just pay and let your travel insurance take the strain.
That's about the top and bottom of it. Anything with 'Royal Air Force' painted on the side is a dangerous proposition if you want to get a) there, and b) there on time. Exercise traffic is always ripe for the chop wherever it's going, while even regular flights to Akrotiri can be hijacked by ops at short notice. Theoretically you can still indulge, but it depends on your willingness to travel Hit&Miss Airways for the bargain price of £20, with a reasonable likelihood your travel plans outbound, inbound, or both, will probably not go to plan.

[BEagle]

I think that Virgin Atlantic have some form of MoD contract? I met some chaps recently in Las Vegas who'd flown some RAF folk over for the ARSAG 2009 conference.

I understand, though, that they flew over in whatever that bit at the back of an airliner cabin is called these days? Very infra dig....:= Not an Officer's way of travelling!

[Pontius Navigator]

Our flight into Dover AFB, and on, was on a C141. This is strictly a jet powered Herc. The seats are the same, your feet get cold, your head gets hot, and you can see s*d all.

Now opposite us was a US Airman, PFC or whatever passes for the lowest of the low, wearing his BDUs (best dress?) and going back home Stateside with his fairly new best of British bride.

She was dressed the part: blonde hair, bolero jacket, tight tight pants, and strappy stilletoes.

The flight got off to a good start: 45 min ramp delay with the doors open. Then, once airborne, a 9 hr flight and the loadies wouldn't even let us stretch out in the warmth on top of the pallets.

The temperature was lowered several degrees with the string of blue epiteths from Mrs PFC. It really set up her move to her new homeland :}

[BEagle]

Yes, the Cousins seem very keen on this Rendition Class level of travelling. No natural light, spatial disorientation, abusive warders....

No doubt those people who finally made it to Guantanamo Bay thought they were in heaven. Briefly.

Even the dismal KC-767 Frankentanker proposal doesn't have windows - and I understand that it might even be the same for their version of the A330MRTT?

Why??

[Nomorefreetime]

No more Indulgence seats on any Comercial Airline, Seats are reserved for MOD not allocated as before. If seats are not taken by a certain cut off time they go back into the airline's pot. MOD pay top dollar for these seats. Cyprus do have a dedicated desk (a Civvy) who control all seats into and out of Cyprus, Same for the Falklands and ASI.
:)

[Pontius Navigator]

Actually the warders were very civilised, TWA or Panam moonlighting. Even before we took off they produced large poly sacks and threw cans of coke, packets of biscuits and some thin crisped potato sliced things at us.

Even gave us loads of coffee though.

Mind you the facilities were up to the usual standard. While using them we were able to monitor the IFF, radios and sundry other kit as the panels were off the walls.:}

[Lima Juliet]

Indulgence Flying - isn't that 8hrs in an E-3D??? :ok:

[BlackadderIA]

Getting the words 'Flying' and 'E3-D' in the same sentence - nice one :}

Doesn't the Brunty Victor have more hours this month than 8 and 23?

[West Coast]

But what really peeved me was that the miserable sod never even said thankyou.

Perhaps after the third lighthouse/acft carrier story you laid on him...


No natural light, spatial disorientation, abusive warders....

Care to guess how much my ticket cost? Can afford lots more Fosters when the tickets free.

I rode MAC (yeah, that long ago) to OZ a couple of times. One trip there was a Brit riding along, said he was heading down to see family. Aren't your lot allowed to ride AMC aircraft on a space available basis?

[scottpe]

I agree entirely with Tankertrashnavs' comments regarding this country's treatment of retired servicemen and women. Apart from benefits like space "A" travel, US vets have their own "retiree" ID card which gives them access to all US military bases, home and abroad, enabling them to use all the base facilities ie. PX/BX, Commissary, Golf Courses, Bowling Alleys etc etc. I think they are also entitled to Medical and Dental treatment. Many US vets plan their retirement making sure they are near to a military base, for these very reasons, plus they can opt to live in places like S, California or Florida. How different to UK where the RAF is possibly the only "firm" in the world to take your watch off you when you retire!!!

[Dan Winterland]

Space A is theoreticly possible for members of UK armed forces. I have known people who have done it. What they really need to see are your 'leave orders', so have a copy of your leave pass as well as a NATO travel order. there is a priority system, as non US serving you will be lowest. This was the case about ten years ago and I gather it hasn't changed much. Can anyone verify it's still the case?

As a tanker captain I was ofeten asked when flying round the US if we had space A. I usually asked the question, but it was usually TFD. Only once could we do it.



As for indulging. Don't start me on that! Yes it's allowed - but it's controlled by the movers. So that's largely the end of it! I did a trip to Cyprus in a tanker once. Two seats were made available on the op order for indulgees for the GE and one of the groundcrew to bring their wives for a weekend in Cyprus. Just prior to departure, the GEs wife phoned to say there wasn't space after all. So we were surpirsed when a van arrived with the indulgance pax which turned out to be a mover and his wife who saw two seats on the way to Cyprus available and decided to snaffle them. Just before Cyprus, time for the tanker/tanker bracket - the other tanker couldn't trail his centre hose so we had to flip/flop and we continued to Bahrain. I left it to the GE to explain to the indulgees that we were now on the way to Bahrain where there was a curfew and that they had to stay in the Diplomat hotel at their own expense. I think he enjoyed it!




When I left the mob, I joined the RAFA as a lifetime member and got an RAF Retired ID card. The US forces recognise it just as the same as their veterans cards and I have used it for access to BXs, purchse discounted theme park tickets and get hotels and hire cars at special rates.

[scottpe]

Continuing on almost the same theme, the US equivalent to RAF Movers are called (or were) called MAPs (Mobile Air Port). When a flight arrived at a MAC base the aircraft was met by a MAPs rep with a standard set of questions: Loadmasters name? How many seats are you offering? What's the status of the aeroplane (serviceable or not)? Flew into Scott AFB in a Herc in the '80s and just after shutdown but with the GTC (APU) still blasting away was approached by one of the said MAPs reps who duly shouted to me "what's the Loadmasters name?" I shouted back "Scott", he repeated the question "what's the Loadmasters name?" again I shouted back "Scott", with a look of complete consternation on his face and about ready to blow a gasket he shouted "I know where the fxxk we are Sir, what's the Loadmasters name?"
Incidentally thanks for the info on the RAFA and ID cards, planning a golfing trip Stateside in Sept and it would be a useful thing to have for the reasons you've given.

[DOWN_SOUTH_AGAIN]

Current priorities for SPACE-A are as follows:

Category I - Emergency Leave Unfunded Travel
Emergency round-trip travel in connection with serious illness, death or impending death of a member of the immediate family of the following:
•U.S. citizen civilian employees of the Defense Department stationed overseas;
•Full-time, paid personnel of the American Red Cross serving with U.S. military overseas;
•Military family members whose sponsors are stationed within the continental United States and the emergency exists overseas;
•Family members of U.S. civilian employees of the DoD when both sponsor and dependents are stationed overseas at the same location;
•Military family members when accompanied by their sponsor may travel within the ConUS if the emergency exists in the ConUS.
Category II - Sponsors in an Environmental Morale Leave (EML) Status
•Sponsors on environmental and morale leave and accompanied family members. Military personnel also must be on ordinary leave;
•DoD Dependent School teachers and accompanied family members in EML status during school-year holiday, vacation periods or employer-approved training during recess periods.
Category III - Ordinary Leave, House Hunting Permissive TDY, Medal of Honor Holders, Foreign Military, and Others
•Service members in an ordinary or re-enlistment leave status and military patients on convalescent leave;
•Military personnel traveling on permissive temporary duty orders for house hunting;
•If permissive TDY is for permanent change of station house hunting, the member may travel in the ConUS and overseas, and be accompanied by one family member;
•Family members (with a valid identification card) of a service member when accompanied by their sponsor who is in an ordinary leave status;
•Foreign exchange service members on permanent duty with the DoD, when in a leave status.
Category IV - Unaccompanied Dependents on EML and DoDDS Teachers on EML During Summer
•Unaccompanied family members (18 years or older) traveling on EML orders. Family members under 18 must be accompanied by an adult family member who is traveling EML;
•DoDDS teachers or family members in an EML status year round.
Category V - Permissive TDY (Non-House Hunting), Students, Command Sponsored Dependents•Students whose sponsor is stationed in Alaska or Hawaii;
•Military personnel traveling on permissive TDY orders for other than house hunting;
•Command-sponsored dependents (18 years of age) of service members who are stationed overseas may travel unaccompanied from the sponsors PCS duty location to the ConUS and return. Travel cannot be between two overseas theaters. Dependents must have command sponsored documentation signed by the commander verifying command sponsorship
Category VI - Retired, Dependents, Reserve, ROTC, NUPOC, and CEC•National Guard/reserve components/members of the Ready Reserve and members of the Standby Reserve who are on the active-status list;
•Retired military members who are issued DD Form 2 and eligible to receive retired or retainer pay;
•Family members (with valid ID card) of retired members when accompanied by a sponsor.

[scottpe]

DSA,Thanks for your very comprehensive input, space "A" really is wide ranging. Can't ever imagine in my time in the mob going to the movers and asking for an indulgence flight Brize to Kinloss so I could go house hunting in Scotland!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Can't ever imagine . . . asking for an indulgence flight Brize to Kinloss

Not house hunting but it was almost the norm for a pre-post Christmas flight to repartriate the English. Also it was not unusual for a tannoy to go out offering seats down south, usually 2-3 hours notice.

As a cadet once, I was hells impressed that my Varsity flight seemed to be moving people from one station to another. I remember Topcliffe and I think we even went to Valley. This is days when cars were not the norm and often one between 2 for officers and the station parade square was for parades. I thought THIS is the organisation I want to join.

[AdanaKebab]

Just another thread displaying how 'broken' our Air Force is. Frustrating, embarrassing, but overall, very, very, sad.:(:(:(

[BEagle]

And, of course, the Fleet Air Arm's 'Tilly' Heron regularly popped up to Lossiemouth every weekend, to start a round robin of naval air stations on its way south. It brought Jockistanis north and took English folk south.

I was supposed to go home from Kinloss as a cadet after a short detachment - plan A was to catch the Tilly to Yeovilton. But a staff chap at FONAC decided he needed some flying time, so popped up to collect me in a Sea Vampire.

That was the Navy way - style!

Another piece of American baggage we often took flying was some mysterious doctor from Upper Heyford. It turned out he needed to fly every so often to be able to claim flight pay. The first time he went flying with us, the crew gave him a full briefing, explained what was going on and invited him to sit on the jump seat. He sniffed and grunted, then went and sat in the back. The next time he just turned up and sat in the back reading a newspaper. After a few more trips like this, the new boss asked who this bloke was - and had he done anything to say thank you. Like, say, the odd bottle or a few beers from the Upper Heyford BX. "Err, no boss. In fact the bug.ger is virtually monosyllabic". "Right", said the boss (he wasn't actually one of the more popular 101 Sqn bosses, but top marks on this occasion), "the next time he turns up, send him my way and I'll tell him to $od off".

We never saw him again!

One of the latest US initiatives is the rapid removal of the injured from combat arenas. Anything which can carry an aeromed team can be used, all stops are pulled out, priority scheduling is arranged so that they can get the casualties to a specialist centre in Germany or the US as quickly as possible. It is a clear indication of real'investment in people'.

And we don't even have any permanent military hospitals any more..... I told an American that and he simply couldn't believe it.

Then there was this US warship.........:p

[Pontius Navigator]

But a staff chap at FONAC decided he needed some flying time, so popped up to collect me in a Sea Vampire.

. . . had he done anything to say thank you. Like, say, the odd bottle or a few beers

We sort of had one of those at Waddo. Friday this bloke files a flight plan and lobs in in a T-Bird. Monday flies back to Germany.

Next week, same deal.

Thiis goes on for 3 weeks or so until OC Ops asks what's going on. Seems some Canadian staffer needed both the flying hours and a trip 'home' to visit family or whatever in UK. He had never actually bothered to visit Ops and say hello.

[BEagle]

In a similar vein, the Luftwaffe often turned up at Wattisham in an F4 on Friday afternoons. This jet always had a big 4000 lb centerline tank fitted - hardly necessary for the short hop across the North Sea. The Customs chap (this was long before the EU) would be there to meet them...

"Anything to declare?"
"Ja - just a bottle and 200 each"
"OK, bye"

Then they would hang around looking a bit shifty. When The Revenue was safely out of sight, a truck would show up from Cottesmore. Whereupon one of the F4 crew would produce an un-Dzuser and set about the centre tank. From which would appear all manner of contraband, including on one occasion a complete Mercedes exhaust system. Contraband in truck, panel back on tank, "Please vill you put unser Jet into ein Hangar bis Montag", and off they'd go.

This all worked fine, until one day the lads towing the jet managed to ding the tail on the hangar doors. Some engineer wondered whether an FGR2 tailplane would fit, but it wouldn't. I was later told (so can't vouch that it's true, Westy ;) ) that the OC of the Luftwaffe F4 outfit wasn't too impressed - he sent a message saying "OK - you can have the kill. But until my chaps learn to supervise their aircraft's security better, they won't be coming back!"

[Saintsman]

It wasn't particularly easy 20 years ago when I was in.

Best I could manage was the jump seat on the regular Akrotiri run and only then because I worked on 10's at the time. Struggled to get back though and was grateful for space in a Herc a week earlier than I'd planned. Mind you that was particularly comfortable as someone was lucky enough to have their car shipped back and we made use of the seats.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Synopsis of the thread since the old people started:

"The Movers were all bad and controlled it and ruined it - but many fleets ran their own personal international taxi services for those in the know."

I guess thats about evens then isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Mobile Muppet]

Mr C Hinecap

I agree, all quick to jump on the outrage bus when they dont get their own way, wont go down the route of sqn/ops guys doing thier own thing, too many stories!

MM

[Papa Whisky Alpha]

During my service many moons ago I did manage to obtain two or three indulgence flights but the requirement was that we had to be able to show we had a means of returning , usually a scheduled airline ticket which a refund could be claimed on, if there was no indulgence.

I did however find that the USAF was far more reasonable with not only their own servicemen and ex-service but also with other NATO forces. On one occasion I was in New Brunswick on detachment and we were all granted 10 days leave. I decided to visit the US and having obtained a lift to Bangor, Maine, I decided to try my luck with the USAF. To cut a long story short my trip went - Bangor to Westover in a T29, Westover to Dover in a Globemaster. At Dover I met up with a West Virginia ANG crew in a Super Constellation and flew to Goose, Alconbury, Mildenhall, Frankfurt, Lajes, Dover and back to their base at Martinsburg, West Virginia. Because Frankfurt was their destination and I could be offloaded and stranded the Aircraft Commander had their orders re-cut at Alconbury adding me to their crew list as a supernumerary BP 1st Class (Bridge player!). My final route back was Andrews AFB - Westover - Loring, with the final flight in a helicopter which set down in a field alongside the border crossing to Canada. I got sent back to the UK only a week later and had to fill out a form stating where I spent the previous 14 nights. I was then accused of taking the p**s. Happy days, long ago.

[Pete268]

In the same vein as the RAFA 'Retired RAF' card, anyone who receives a War Pension can now get a 'War Pensioners Status Card' certifying that the holder is a War Disablement Pensioner.

Very handy when visiting the USA etc for discounts as a Veteran. Whether it would work for jumping on a USAF SpaceA flight god knows.

The card is free and all War Pensioners need do to obtain one is ring the SPVA freephone on 0800 169 2277.

Pete

[airborne_artist]

In my green phase I was briefly RHQ movements clerk. My greatest achievement was getting a TA mate onto an indulgence flight home in time for Christmas.

in Vancouver...:ok:

[codsallian]

While working at Laarbruch for PSA in the early 90s, my missus and I went out to Decci from Bruggen for a long weekend over Easter - except that the planned return flight or three were cancelled. Eventually got a Herc back after about a week and a half. A very enjoyable experience looking back, but a bit stressfull at the time not knowing what the outcome would be. The movers at Decci were very good and always reassured us we would definitely get back eventually! (PS a novelty having one families entire household effects on tourex on board including their new Volvo)

[bubbler]

And if he wasnt a mate would you have made the same amount of effort??

[Union Jack]

And, of course, the Fleet Air Arm's 'Tilly' Heron .....

.... was more stylishly known as the "Clipper" rather than the "Tilly" - and such trips weren't confined solely to weekends!:ok:

Jack

[Wader2]

'War Pensioners Status Card' certifying that the holder is a War Disablement Pensioner.Pete

0800 169 2277 ring, ring, your call is important to us . . .

"Am I eligible for a War pensioners status card?"

"What's your national insurance number?"

"YH nn nn nn a"

"Are you still at . . . ?"

"Yes"

"OK"

"Is that it?"

"Yes. Get it in the post."

Now all I need is the interest payments on a £300,000 mortgage that I haven't go. :}