Merged: TodayTonight: communication difficulties Monday

[TwoTango]

Just caught the end of TodayTonight (was running through channels, not a regular watcher, I'd rather have a lobotomy without anaesthetic, which I guess is what TodayTonight is...), and they were previewing a segment on Monday. They've apparently recorded aircraft communications which are not able to be understood. Seemed to be typical "danger in the skies" sort of stuff.

I'll be interested to see just how bad it is portrayed as being. I know for a fact there are some woeful radio calls that get made out there (my all-time favourite, even though it wasn't particularly hard to understand, was the aircraft which announced it was "joining mid-cross-downwind"), but I wonder if this will be a typical media beat up. I'll laugh if it turns out the conversations are perfectly intelligible, the journos just can't understand what any of it means.

Anyone care to bet on which of their stock of 'aviation experts' they'll roll out to discuss this one?

TT

Edit: just realised what my signature is. Rest assured, I have nothing to do with the televisual 'TangoTango'.

[bill.lumbergh]

I've got $50 on DS :}

[mcgrath50]

I watched the preview of the segment, the main problem I found with understanding the calls was the amount of static, ie; a problem with the plane (or more likely) their recording equipment. The accent was there and only a minor nuisance and the two calls they previewed were pretty good considering they were recorded at training airfields (were you would expect people to make mistakes).

The 'journalist' commented that thousands of Australians were at risk due to these poor calls. := I would say this is a beat up that just exhibits chronic racism.

[tmpffisch]

I saw the preview too. Seems like a bit of a beat up. CASA's introduced the English standard test this year, and while it isn't watertight, at least they're doing something. Has anyone heard of any students failing the test? Will they bring up last years mid-air at YMMB?

I played ATC recording/streaming to my father a few weeks ago (liveatc.net) and he had difficulty understanding what was being said, and it was in plain english without any accents.

There are some woeful radio calls out there however!

[TwoTango]

CASA's introduced the English standard test this year, and while it isn't watertight, at least they're doing something. Has anyone heard of any students failing the test?

Haven't heard of any failures, but it wouldn't surprise me. The accents are shocking (I wonder if they have used the same voice actor who did those ads for New Caledonia with the half-French half-Ocker (Frocker?) accent a while back?), and the bulk of it seems to be simulated communications between commercial jets under the IFR and tower. Because that is the sort of communication that a GFPT holder will be engaged in... :rolleyes:

If they want to latch on to a safety issue, might I suggest AFRUs that insist on beeping over the top of calls. Once was in the circuit with a few other aircraft, and the damn thing kept beeping in the middle of everyone's calls. It was a wonder anyone could work out what anyone else was trying to transmit.

TT

[mcgrath50]

Well that section stretched even my racism to it's limits! Ridiculous.

The majority of communications I could hear perfectly well. The real bad one that was used in the sound grab was just one bad apple.

The 'journalist' tried to link this to the air crash in India involving a 747 and a freighter. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Shadowfromthesky]

What an absolute load of rubbish that was!

[Lasiorhinus]

As expected, 95% of the "unintelligible" transmissions were perfectly intelligible... yet the TV insists on transcribing "abeam Pt Ormond" as "at bang Pt Ormond"...

Love the footage of aircraft landing at Moorabbin, while the aircraft talks to Essendon Tower...

[tmpffisch]

What an absolute joke! The lack of quality recording equipment and perhaps attempting to record the transmissions miles away surely attributed to the problem. And they targetted the 1% of transmissions that are a bit dodgy.

Loved the footage of Moorabbin while listening to Essendon transmissions. Pure class.

Why can't they tackle AsA staff shortages instead of this rubbish!

[I spy]

Oh, good GRIEF!!

Even Today Tonight couldn't decipher the ATC transmissions!! :ugh::ugh::ugh:


ATC: "Are you ON BANG Point Ormond?"

Ahhhhhhhhh - I think you mean "ABEAM Point Ormond", you imbeciles...

Look, we all know that some of our foreign pilots have less than stellar English, but **** - I've heard some absolute clangers in perfectly acceptable English.

Maybe, these pilots should sit an IELTS test (International English Language Testing) the same test that universities/tertiary institutions make any overseas students wanting to study here take. There's two levels:

* The IELTS test is in four components: Listening, Reading, Writing and Speaking.
o The Listening, Reading and Writing components of the test take approximately 2 hours and 45 minutes to complete. The speaking component takes approximately 20 minutes to complete.
* IELTS is available in two formats: Academic and General Training.
o The Academic modules assess whether a candidate is ready to study or train at degree level.
o The General Training modules are suitable for candidates who are going to undertake non academic training or for immigration purposes. Please go to the Department of Immigration and Citizenship website for more information.

The cost? About $160-200 - chicken feed to those students.



Hey, maybe CASA could set the acceptable pass marks.??.................oh, hang on, that's a BAD idea...:=:=:=

[Dangly Bits]

I agree. Worthless beat up journalism at its worst. They would have been better doing a story as Tempy said, on the lack of controllers in ASA. How can a tower operate on 40% staff compared to a few years ago. Just crazy.

We did get a glimpse of the new CASA CEO though. Hardly saw Byron in front of the cameras.

[TwoTango]

"Essendown Tower, Today Tonight, a load of bollocks, is ready at runway forty four, received bugger all"

I almost fell out of my seat laughing when "at bang" came up in the transcript. People in glass houses...

I agree with the previous posters - most of the calls were understandable. My parents, neither of whom are involved in aviation, thought one of the hardest calls to understand was the one right at the end from the "Aussie" pilot. I have to say I found it a bit garbled too - sounded like he was racing to get it all out. Radio calls are not a race - there isn't a prize for most words per minute. Say it at a normal speed, and you'll be understood.

The 'journalist' tried to link this to the air crash in India involving a 747 and a freighter.

Coincidentally that episode is premiering on National Geographic tonight. I wonder how much they paid Today Tonight for the free advert?

Oh well, at least the story was so bollocks they couldn't even get an "aviation expert" to back it up on camera...

The sad thing is, there *is* a problem in my view with foreign students coming out here and being thrown in the deep end with not nearly enough support to learn English. It doesn't happen everywhere, but I have seen it first hand at a number of organisations. But hey, why draw attention to that real issue when instead you can have a nice rant against those foreigners.

TT

[I spy]

""Essendown Tower, Today Tonight, a load of bollocks, is ready at runway forty four, received bugger all"...

Genius, pure genius, Two Tango :ok:

[chode1984]

is this online anywhere yet?

[Lasiorhinus]

Give me about half an hour and it will be..

[Dick N. Cider]

Today Tonight too embarrassed to list it on their own site...

DNC

[Lasiorhinus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV743JSd-bI

In what passes for HD on youtube, too, just as soon as it "processes"

[Unhinged]

Utterly embarrassing - Racist claptrap beat up. Almost all of the transmissions were completely intelligible, with most of the radio errors simply a result of being a student pilot, not because of "the Asians" that the programme kept trying to blame. "at bang" was good for a laugh - showed just what gutter-dwellers these people are.

[b_sta]

Absolute rubbish segment. Almost entirely consisted either of mistakes made by student pilots, no doubt under full supervision of an instructor anyway, or simply the result of bad quality transmissions due to equipment or what have you.

[startingout]

Youtube link is giving "This video is unavailable." so not sure if that means if it is either not loaded or gone but just a heads up it's not on for me... Am interested to see what TT said bout it all, thier report on toxic oils last night was bit different as well.

[mikk_13]

haha I'll watch out for this. I might be able to get some tips from today tonight on how to do my job (ATC).

[cbradio]

anyone got the phone number for Mediawatch? ;)

[Unhinged]

Here 'tis Media Watch tip-offs (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/contactus.htm)

[Ando1Bar]

anyone got the phone number for Mediawatch?


Just what I was thinking.

I wonder who TT's industry source was?

[chode1984]

Thanks Lasiorhinus!

[VH-XXX]

I watched it with an open mind.

Aside from the obvious Essendon calls whilst showing aircraft at Moorabbin, the small captioning error and the Jabiru used for the cockpit scenes:ugh: I think it was PERFECTLY VALID.

Just imagine what the thread will look like when someone crashes due to poor unreadable english, things will be different then!

For those instructors that think the foreign students are ok, you need to get out of the Moorabbin training area (for example) when they go on Solo Nav's and have a listen to the VHF. Whilst you're having a listen, try switching to 123.45 or the other random channel that they choose and you'll here as much foreign language between aircraft than you'd hear in little China town (for example). I heard a call on the weekend that I could not understand, with the exception of the field that was to be overflown and I work with foreign people of all the usual suspect countries daily.

[tmpffisch]

Hey Lasiorhinus

I think the youtube video rightly deserves some subtitles or annotations added, so we can clearly understand what Johnathon Creek is saying....perhaps an (unintelligible) here and there too....just so the video rings true to the rest of the subtitles.

[cbradio]

the small captioning error

unfortunately that "small error" defeated the whole purpose of what they were trying to prove! They couldn't understand the English (sort of!) speaking controller.

The issue is probably worth another thread - this is more to do with the pathetic attempt to cover it.

[Unhinged]

"I think it was PERFECTLY VALID"

The programme's hypothesis was that poor aviation communication is a result of the pilots being foreign. However, in the examples they showed, any poor communication was the result of either (a) the pilots being inexperienced, (b) the radio reception being poor, or (c) australian pilots stuffing up.

Nothing they showed supported their hypothesis. It was a perfectly invalid argument.

[VH DSJ]

Today Tonight's viewer feedback page is here (http://au.todaytonight.yahoo.com/contactform/30608). :E

[rioncentu]

"Stationed at"??????????

"At bang" ?????

So they didn't even drag out an aviation "expert" for this segment. What a joke.

Hey the ASIC and airport closures aren't doing enough to shut down GA, let's try and ban foreign training now too!!

[VH-XXX]

All I can say is that I await the "I told you so" when an incident does occur!

As for this:

(a) the pilots being inexperienced

They don't get any better, especially when they get out on their solo NAV's!

If you think it's not bad, you need to get out there or buy a scanner or something :ugh: and it's not just the GAAP's and CTA's, it's the CTAFS and airfields with non-standard ops, eg right hand circuits and Parachuting Drop Zones for starters!

[Jabawocky]

Just watched the article and I note that John McCormick comments on his flying into many foreign environments however this would most likely have been at CX and in a professional ATC/RPT environment. Even with language and accent differences the genral core of understanding of the English used is well entrenched.

The issue of GAAP and nav's into various CTAF's and Class D etc, by relatively inexperienced pilots plus unfamiliar english and accents does mean there will be a far greater level of frustration. I remember when learning to fly in CTA, the odd moment of brain strain coping with multiple things at once plus flyng the plain would have been very obvious outside the cockpit........ add to that a language profficiency deficit and I fully appreciate the concerns being put forward.

To make matters worse many old a/c with old radios, antennae, audio panels and wiring, plus dodgey headsets...........:uhoh: Many times its hard to understand the Aussies! So ATC really are in strife.

The only solution is to ensure English profficiency among the students. Its not being racist or anything like it, its a standard and it must be met. Simple as that. Same should apply to the level of instruction on radio use and for that matter good avionics/headsets.

And while we are at it, some of the local old fella's too!:suspect:

Have to say I do not hear any ATC folk that are hard to understand. :D

[The Green Goblin]

Have to say I do not hear any ATC folk that are hard to understand.

You must not have heard 'ole shanghai approach in Perth then :}

[airtags]

Remember being told
2RN can be mistaken for SBS
:bored:

[VH-XXX]

There used to be an enroute guy in Melbourne that could talk faster than anyone you have ever heard before! 9 times out of 10 the pilots were asking him to repeat himself. He seems to have disappeared in the last year.

Now there's a guy on there who gives so much information that he runs out of breath by the the time he has identified your conflicting traffic, he constantly uses free speech for all chatter. That being said, it's great service, however he runs himself thin because he can't get all the info out in time with the number of aircraft out there. Oh, and he is extremely polite, not to say that the others aren't, but this guy is something else.

[TeeTail]

Just caught the "story" tonight... We're a little behind in the north!!

Typical useless trash sprouted by people who have no idea. Essendon tower's response 'call sign only' happens quite regularly. It may be the controller was talking to a ground station and missed the callsign of the aircraft.

I agree there needs to be stringent testing for student pilots, however TT's usual sloppy journalism and complete lack of integrity has produced a "story" that wouldn't pass a high school media class.

How do we know all those recorded transmissions were made in the same day or even the same year for that matter???

What a waste of film, the least they could have done was to present this very real issue with a WELL RESEARCHED and FACT BASED story rather than media hype. Then people in the regulatory bodies may take notice.

Then again if they could do that they wouldn't be working for TT.

*rant over*

TeeTail

[Chu Mai Huang]

Are flying schools under any financial pressure to give 'free passes' to those who shouldn't get passed in English?

eg
"Do I fail this guy and lose his $50,000+ worth of training, or do I pass him and take the money, hoping he'll improve?"

And as for requiring true blue Aussies to pass an English test before getting a student licence - now THAT'S racist.

[Number34]

Racist? Get real mate. It affects people over a vast spectrum of backgrounds and situations for example; some people may have a speech impediment and that would help screen these people out. Lets face, I don't know the test would help with safety, but it would just make things easier.

[Spiral_Diver]

I do not object to english language testing and in fact am all for it.

However; the test itself is not testing your understanding of the english language but your ability to understand someone elses broken english. Add to this that some of the audio samples in the test are IFR airways clearances and the like and its surprising any student pilots regardless of background are getting the tick.

[coke drinker]

I wonder if Today Tonight actually bothered to find out what was involved in the English test.

[Jabawocky]

Yeahh RIGHT!!!!!

Must be a bit too much Bundy in that Coke Mr/Ms Coke Drinker :}:ok:

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

There are now two english language tests.

First, for the student licence, not only does the CFI have to be satisfied the student can communicate in English (as has always been the case) but this has to be backed up by documentary proof of eg graduating from school in Australia or equivalent, worked three of the last five years in Australia, a stst dec to say the same in the case of a lack of documentation,or an IELTS test. (International English Language Testing System). (See CASA form 639) And oh boy don't we get a lot of grumbles from native English speakers about THAT.

The test for ICAO english proficiency is done at the END of the course, around flight test time, for the very reason that it is AVIATION english which the student can't be expected to be very familiar with until towards the end of their training.

But if course TT wouldn't know any of that. I thought I was watching an episode of Frontline!

[Dangnammit]

I did my English test a day before my CPL flight test late last year.

I love TT. Their well researched, factual and brilliant stories are riveting....if they ever did one
Now only if they had the mental ability to do so.

I've flown at ymen for ages. I've had to repeat my callsign a few times in the past.
Everybody miks mistooks sometime in their life, especially students when they get nervous or overwhelmed.

Anyway, that rushed call at the end of the story was an Air Ambulance King Air.
Look at the back cover of the ERSA for a pic of its callsign cousin.

[Kickatinalong]

Thanks for the post , those of us who are in bed by the time TT comes on now only have to look at PPrune. Great post THANKS.
Kickatinalong.:D:D:D

[coke drinker]

Slightly O/T...looks like ACA have realised they can't appeal to the lowest common denominator as well as TT and seem to have given up the idiot audience.

[Stationair8]

Didn't watch it, as I was too busy watching Matthew Johns on ACA tell his story.

[Barry Bernoulli]

So I should not fly in India, or South-East Asia, or China, or anywhere else where the predominately local pilots will find my Australian version of English difficult to understand. In fact, in my experience it is US ATC who sometimes have the most difficulty in interpreting my ICAO standard radio calls. Is TT suggesting that, in the interests of safety, Australian pilots should be banned from flying overseas?

[TwoTango]

Is TT suggesting that, in the interests of safety, Australian pilots should be banned from flying overseas?

I think the overall theme of Today Tonight is that more or less everything and everyone should be banned, and when "they" (whoever that may be...) do ban it, that will be political correctness gone mad... :}

TT

[m-dot]

Maybe they should do a story on the foreign airline pilots like "Thai nay nay nay nay nine eight"

Man that callsign is crazy for them.

[Wing Root]

Ah yes, I can always rely on THAI NINA NINA NINA to brighten my dull day.

[Towering Q]

On the subject of foreign pilots....why do the instructors at China Southern insist on sending their students on Navs that include Koolyanobbing as a waypoint? It's cruel.:E

[archangel7]

Atleast the English Proficiency Test is based using the VHF band. Now, Add an Accent plus a HF Transmission from the Outback of W.A using a standard G.A HF unit. - Who would pass that?

[compressor stall]

TQ, I presume you too have chuckled at ATS trying to give you a clearance at FL320 but struggling to pronounce Tjuntjunjarra....

I remember one night, after three aborted attempts sounding something like an old steam train, I received, "Cleared to Tango Juliet Uniform, Flight level 320..." :D:D

[Towering Q]

I've noticed the Flightwatch guys are a lot better with Tjuntjun, I guess they get more practice.

FL320??...my ship only gets to FL300.....and very reluctantly.:{

[the wizard of auz]

even some locals have trouble with some of the easier ones... Like Tjukayirla, Tjakarly. Kookynie is always good for a giggle. :} funny how they are just a normal place name for others of us locals. :E