RAF Lyneham is to close in 2012 [Archive]

Winch-control

7th May 2009, 15:09

I heard it was worth more being turned back into 'common land'. A pleasant area to work your dog, fly a kite, or have a pic-nic.
The government have decided rural green spaces are required after all.
I believe the runway is to be dug up and re-used for the fifth lane of the M25, which has a start date at the same time as Lyneham closes.
A/C are to be taken out of service, as there is no longer a requirement for them due to PFI and we are not at/will not undertake any other conflicts..ahem...wars.

flipster

7th May 2009, 18:14

Gives a different meaning to 'Rompers Green'!! However, I can't see MoD missing an opportunity to relocate another armu unit close to 'the plain' and the local economy would be sh@gged without the base.

Guzlin Adnams

7th May 2009, 21:03

Criteria for closing a base.......is the local mp liarbor or tory? Is the seat marginal?:yuk:

cazatou

8th May 2009, 09:08

Local Builders will be happy - in my experience large sums will be spent from the Defence Budget to upgrade accommodation and other facilities prior to closure.

:ugh:

Dengue_Dude

8th May 2009, 18:42

Well, for once, all cynicism and humour aside, I shall be very sad to see RAF Lyneham close.

Big chunk of 30 years of my life off and on were associated with that place, it was good, bad and indifferent but there was always something going on.

A memorable fortnight in the the summer of 1976 in charge of putting barbed wire on poles stuck in old fire section foam containers started the rot . . .

I loved the flying TS etc, I hated Orderly Sergeants and sgt's gate guards, I tolerated Orderly Officer because I could go to bed!

We don't use real names in here without permission.

QRA allowed me to go with the crew-coach driver to go find the first grey and green Herk (305) which was locked up in a B line hangar.

Being searched by my 3 year old because she knew I'd been flying - so I MUST have chocolate in my flying suit! I didn't dare eat that!

Visits from . .

The memories flow. On balance, a sad day if and when it happens.

I hope they do something nice with the land if it does close.

Grimweasel

8th May 2009, 20:12

Belvedere was a helicopter re-basing stream. Now that it's been canx everyone is talking of Lyneham's demise - Belvedere cancellation leads to other options for the base being considered; kinda clears the way for the Army to take the place over; ideal place for a Joint SF air-wing or to rebase 16 AAB right next to Sailsbury Plain and Sennybridge TAs. Could even be used for troops returning from BAOR (he he)

Don't reckon she's that dead just yet - look at Innsworth - now re incarnated as HQ ARRC in a few years!

Lima Juliet

8th May 2009, 20:37

It was no surprise to me - this was announced about 5 years ago!!!:}

merlinxx

8th May 2009, 21:00

I hope someone is going to preserve all of 'Buzz' Stoner's art work, and especially the periodical of you 'Truckees':ok:

kilwhang

9th May 2009, 02:04

'Brian Spurway, Izzy (Booker), John Seaton, Pete Tyas (RIP)'..........I was only there for 14 years but you've just re-kindled some very fond memories. Thanks!

Kengineer-130

9th May 2009, 04:57

I still think it is an utterly ridiculous decision, Lyneham is very busy as it is, and Brize is not exactly quiet. Whoever has thought this little gem up has no idea....:mad::ugh:

I wonder if the Tories got in, would they would see sense and keep it open? :suspect:....

I may be a little bit biased having been at Lyneham for 10 years now, it is a home from home and I am saddened to see the way it is going. Is it REALLY going to save that much money in the long run? I can't see it myself, perhaps if MP's stopped making false housing claims (why are they not being prosecuted for fraud?) there might be enough left in the pot to maintain the armed forces :*

scottpe

9th May 2009, 06:49

Dengue Dude and Kilwhang,Brian Spermwhale, Dizzy Hooker and Pete Tightarse (RIP), the latter two very good friends, was in complete agreement with 30 Sqn Engs on the first one!! But you are right very very sad to see Lyneham close, the beauty about the place is that everyone spoke Herculese, unlike Brize which has always been a mish-mash of units, flying and non flying!!

Biggus

9th May 2009, 09:45

Totally open source, found by google within three minutes. Make your own minds up...

Air Commodore Ian Elliott, OBE BSc FRIN RAF (http://ukinusa.fco.gov.uk/en/defence/raf/aa)

I have merely provided it for your information, and presumably he wrote the piece himself.

I realize that using real names on PPrune is generally frowned upon, but as I said this is taken from a website freely available to the public, and the text was presumably written by the individual concerned. Oh, and I haven't said whether I believe closing Lyneham is actually right or wrong.

No doubt if I have crossed a line a mod will be along soon, and I apologise if my actions are considered out of order!

BEagle

9th May 2009, 10:08

And a jolly nice chap he is too! I did ask him WTF he thought he was doing, planning to contaminate a fine jet AT/AAR base with slow, noisy propeller things from Wiltshire - where were they going to live and where were their squadron buildings going to be built? And where were all the extra parking spaces, now that the Ops Wg car park had turned into a car rental yard?

If you're reading this, 'Snake', hope you enjoy Washington! Fred Roggero told me that's where you'd been posted when I saw him at ARSAG.

Herc-u-lease

9th May 2009, 15:23

No bias toward BZN at all then? best Station of the year award? are we McDonald's now; shall we have Stn Cdr of the month award too? :)

Mighty Quercus

9th May 2009, 15:49

You can build all the pan space you could possibly need. But the fact remains a single runway with mulitple transport aircraft waiting to disgorge their pax and freight. I just hope that the Air Cdre has sourced enough ACSSU's to load, service, fuel, cater, the list goes on to support all this AT eggs in his wonderful basket.

alexlee

9th May 2009, 17:00

One runway for all that traffic....doesn't make sense at all. What with FSTA on the way in and many other things alongside that as well, I'm sure the local population around Brize are going to be chuffed to bits with the news!! I heard they might create a super helo site, combining Benson and Odiham there, but rumour control goes mad in the Forces!!

spheroid

9th May 2009, 18:02

All what traffic....? How many movements a day does BZN have...?

StopStart

9th May 2009, 19:24

Brize and it's locals have no idea what's coming! They're going to love all those night circuits, low level 2 ships and MCT sorties. It's bad enough having to share our GASOs with the shinies of Brize but sharing an airfield with them.... :yuk:

It's a pretty poorly thought out plan to be honest with many heads currently being stuck in much sand. Shame that the undoubtedly splendid Air Cdre won't get the chance to be the Stn Cdr of this crap when it eventually comes to fruition. :suspect:

Farfrompuken

9th May 2009, 20:05

StopStart,

very true! What a bizarre decision:

It's clearly not on a cost basis, as (if we do it properly by building houses/sqn accommodation) there will be no cost saving in my lifetime.

It's clearly not on an efficiency basis as you've mentioned. Brize is going to get heinously busy.

It's not on an local economy basis as it appears the locals at LYE and BZN haven't been consulted (schooling/local employees etc).

It's not on a manpower basis as many LYE civ contractors AND blue suiters won't be making the move (manpower savings will be over-aggressive in this case). Not sure whether they've started training/costing replacements yet.

The 2 assumptions of the closure are flawed:

1. Forecast manpower saving has already occurred.

2. A400 apparently can use the rwy at LYE with no problem with regard to field length (IF we ever see it!).

Looks like someone is too embarrassed to make the right and cheaper decision!

Herc-u-lease

10th May 2009, 17:03

has anyone actually read the report the [now] Air Cdre authored? better still does anyone have a copy? The thing that is intriguing me is on what grounds this decision was made. we're all very good at pointing out the [rather obvious] pitfalls so we must ask what evidence or theories were used to justify the decision?

I feel a FOI request coming on.

Farfrompuken

10th May 2009, 20:54

we must ask what evidence or theories were used to justify the decision?

Have done so to some 'Future BZN types', albeit not at a high level. No-one knew the actual benefit!!

Agreed the FOI option would shed some light.

VinRouge

10th May 2009, 21:18

Anyone know on what basis they are planning to Cap home to duty between Lyneham and Brize bearing in mind they havent bothered to build enough quarters for us all to move in to? :mad:

Or are they still planning on coaching us across at 3 in the morning?

There is hope yet. If the Tories get in, hopefully they will close down a few of the Scottish airbases to say thanks for 12 years of Labour being in power. Lyneham is a Tory constituency after all...

Ken Scott

12th May 2009, 08:55

The decision to close Lyneham was clearly a political one of the 'close a station = save money' kind, so they got someone to write the report (this is the answer so now write the justification) who was part of the Brize Mafia, put in a Stn Cdr at Lyneham who wasn't a Herc man so would have no qualms about closing the place, and Robert's your Dad's brother. Not enough pan space at Bzn (only 60% of the required space even after the build), only one runway (that gets blacked when it rains too much as in 2007), not enough single & families accommodation (there's plenty at a soon to be disused airfield just south of Swindon), an airfield with a hostile local population who'll relish all the MCT, NVG & other local training (there's a potential RLG just south of Swindon, where the Bzn aircraft like to do their training, especially at weekends because they can't at their home base due to all the noise complaints), these are all but minor concerns, because closing airfields saves money, even though you have to spend millions in added infrastructure to bring Bzn up to a lesser spec than is required, and you can't put loss of operational effectiveness on the balance sheet. Losing Lyneham also means losing a close diversion airfield, as well as another airfield with crash cat 4A that doesn't cost a fortune to go to.

Should Lyneham close then the army will almost certainly will move in, as they have at just about every other airfield that's closed, so it stays on the MOD budget anyway. The local population around Lyneham is remarkably supportive of the station & very tolerant of the disturbance it causes, it seems incredible to me that the RAF will squander that support & move the C130s to an airfield that has the opposite. If we buy more Js to fill the gap left by the cancellation of A400 that could up the task for Lyneham as a whole, 30 aircraft and 3 Sqns is more than a number of stations posess, and if we need more units to fill capacity how about moving 45(R) Sqn in, most of their graduates move to the area & most of the QFIs come from here too, leave Cranwell to EFT & Nav trg.

This is a station closure too far, and should not go ahead. Perhaps the Leader of the Opposition in whose constituency Bzn resides would like to say if he will confirm the closure if he becomes PM. I appreciate that he will have some tough financial decisions to make if and when he takes office but the closure will cost money in the short to medium term before any savings result, and the economic effect on North Wiltshire will be substantial.

mr ripley

12th May 2009, 09:25

I seem to remember reading the report prior to the decision. It was looking at Brize vs Lyneham vs St Mawgan.

The basic premise was that the infrastructure at all the sites needed renewing and that Brize and Lyneham were just as poor health as each other. Lyneham ironically had more real estate than Brize but could not compete with runway length and certainly that couldn't be extended.

Where my memory is a bit hazy is whether the FSTA project was chucking money for infrastructure to Brize and whether the C17 basing decision (unsure of timing) proved to be crucial.

Still think its a daft idea for all the reasons stated.

vernon99

12th May 2009, 16:55

I believe there is some opposition to Base hangar being demolished, to make way for a new hangar(now that the RAF have decided a hangar is required) for the A400M, even though base hangar is too small for the A400M etc someone wants to keep it? as a musuem? or perhaps for their personal flying toys? Looks likely there will be several acres more concrete at Brize soon, once they have sorted out the issue with flooding, surely this will only be made worse by adding more concrete?

flipster

13th May 2009, 10:03

Its all Bucking Fonkers!

Good luck to all!

Windy Militant

13th May 2009, 13:13

A question from a lowly civvie. At present I can tell if there's a blockage at the funbus depot because all the ornaments fall off my mantlepiece* when said aircraft divert to Lyneham. Where in future will diverted aircraft be directed to if it happens when Alberts Nest is shut?
Or is that a top secret and I shouldn't be asking.

*saves on the dusting!

Union Jack

13th May 2009, 18:22

Whilst thoroughly agreeing about the general insanity of closing Lyneham, I couldn't help noticing from the BDS Washington website that Air Commodore Elliott was "appointed an Aide De Comps to Her Majesty the Queen" whilst at Brize. Not sure whether that means that he helped HM with the Times and Telegraph crosswords, or just acted as her stooge for radio station phone-ins!:confused:

Jack

Amnesia180

13th May 2009, 19:11

It seems a real shame to be closing Lyneham, all Hercules C130J/K will be moving to Brize Norton (starting in Summer of 2011). The Base will be closed by 2012.

Apparently, RAF Lyneham employs 750 civilians... contributing £25million a year to the local economy!

SirPeterHardingsLovechild

13th May 2009, 19:24

At recent briefs, the Grown Ups have begun by stressing 'Lyneham will close in 2012' before going about their various talks.

Personally I believe that there are several rumours and developments that could still cause a U turn.

More J Models
Extending the K (due to A400 delay)
General Election, Tory MP

and all of the above posts on this thread

I still hold a faint hope of reprieve for the old girl.

StopStart

13th May 2009, 19:34

I'm pretty sure that £24.9 million of that goes into the Lyneham Kebab Shop.... :(

The plan remains laughable and a splendid example of the MoD's inability to rethink that which has been proven, on closer inspection, to be patently bollocks.

I feel sorry for the poor sods being tasked with executing it. Must be like working out the best and most cost effective way to give you, your family and your friends Ebola...

:rolleyes:

S78

13th May 2009, 22:06

WM,

The Brize fog diverts normally go to civvy airports (BHX and MAN)

S78

BEagle

14th May 2009, 06:59

I think I diverted 3 times from Brize to Lyneham, once for Thames Valley fog and twice to RW17/35 due to strong crosswinds at Brize......

Doubtless Birrmigoom will hear the quiet presence of the FunBus with increasing frequency, should the lunacy of closing Lyneham ever go ahead. Still, it's only a 90 min trip in a bus to Brize from BHX.

Top Bunk Tester

14th May 2009, 07:40

Yes Beags, but then you have to add on the to the journey the time that it will take a full Tri*'s or Funbus's pax to retrieve their luggage and change into civvy's before being allowed off the tarmac :ugh:

VinRouge

14th May 2009, 08:05

Come on lets be fair about this one, if BZN was taffing low vis conditions, where would you file as a div?

An airfield that is another 400 feet up and likely to be out in fog, with a single ILS with 200' decision? One that isnt offset 3 degrees off the centreline?

Or a civvie field with full Cat II and multiple ILS RVR information, not to mention further away and thus less likely to be susceptible to local wx conditions?

Grabbers

14th May 2009, 08:36

Vin Rouge

Aircraft can divert for a number of reasons. The runway may be unavailable for reasons not connected to weather. And by definition these events are almost always not forecastable. What's better for the 'customer'? Landing at a nearby Military aerodrome where their prebooked coaches only take an hour to arrive? Or, landing our 'customers' at a civil airport where prebooked coaches have to fight through M6 traffic and the 'customers' have to de-bag on the tarmac so as not to offend the Great British Public. Then the 'customers' have an extended journey back to their loved ones. And then there is the freight issue. Yes, BHX does handle cargo but would a mil aerodrome not be more suited to the military task?

VinRouge

14th May 2009, 08:52

I agree. But claiming because you have divved 3 times from brize before in crap weather does not wash with me I am afraid; If I was divving in poor vis or strong crosswind I would much prefer to choose a div a little further away than LYE

Grabbers

14th May 2009, 08:55

I agree with the weather div issue; I am only saying that Wx is not the only reason ac divert.

NURSE

14th May 2009, 08:56

and if the C130 fleet reduces to just the J model will we need Lyneham?

Arty Fufkin

14th May 2009, 09:25

Lyneham's crash cat isn't high enough to divert there with pax, even if it were, it is a poor choice of diversion if the weather's abit iffy.

I agree that it's a shame that Lyneham is being closed but thems the breaks. As for overcrowding a BZN, the place isn't exactly manic at the moment in terms of movements. Furthermore, 9 Tristars and ??VC10s (12ish?) are being replaced by 9 A330s. A400 will likely get binned, freeing up loads of pan space, and most of the J fleet will be only fit for scrap in 3 years time anyway.

The whole AT fleet will need 1/2 as many stations beceause it will be 1/2 as big. Simple realy.

P.S. If you have some spare cash knocking around at the moment, a buy to let on Base Hangar View would be a sound long term investment!

Ken Scott

14th May 2009, 10:04

'Most of the J fleet will only be fit for scrap in 3 years time'?

Not exactly, the re - spar programme will commence due to the extremely high fatigue useage from current ops, alot early than originally planned, but not quite ready for scrap.

Even if A400 is cancelled we will presumeably procure something else (extra C17s & Js?), which will need to park somewhere. We've suffered from a lack of AT in recent years, reducing the fleet will hardly make things better, and civil charter can only plug some of the gap.

The cost of trying to renovate Bzn negates any savings from closing Lyneham, except in the very long term, and the reduction in operational capability will affect us in the short term. The AOC said, off the record, that it won't work but is to be made to happen.

TOPBUNKER

14th May 2009, 12:29

Aha, but with all that percieved saving (not!) the MoD can afford to buy another batch of Typhoons! (Announced today) Why not just throw the money at B Waste of Space and send them on gardening leave by the way - i.e. forget the aeroplanes? That would save the expense of storing the bloody things!

However, in all seriousness, perhaps once the Hercs have left Lyneham the newly surplus hangar space could be used for said Typhoon storage?

Farfrompuken

14th May 2009, 17:23

Arty:

I agree that it's a shame that Lyneham is being closed but thems the breaks.

I think you've missed the point; sad as it is to lose an airfield, it's acceptable if :
a) There isn't a criminal waste of money and

b) There won't be a massive downturn in efficiency with regard to operational effectiveness.

Neither apply here.

I gather that it won't be resolved by a change in government; by the time a general election comes too much money will have been wasted to do a U Turn. Additionally The Leader of the Opposition (who's constituency BZN is within) honestly believes that the vast majority of C130 Trg is Sim based having little effect with regard to local disruption.

Oh, how the local populace are in for a shock!!:ok:

SVK

14th May 2009, 21:32

I absolutely cannot wait to see how the Oxon populace react to NVG training especially during the summer.

Personally I give it six months into 2013 before we are bumped off to a recently closed airfield just south of Swinetown where the runway is already marked out and the locals are used to the noise.

Tac-ATC will also love not having to drive to Keevil so I suppose there is some benefit.

My question though is what will happen to the J sims, considering they are civvy-owned? Will Thales (or whomever owns them) pay for the move or will it have to come out of the MOD's 'no-cost' budget?

If they remain at Lyn, how much is it going to cost to bus personnel to and from Bzn every day?

chumzpilla

14th May 2009, 21:38

I absolutely cannot wait to see how the Oxon populace react to NVG training especially during the summer.

I am not too sure that the local population will receive any NVG training. That would be a complete waste of money and it would serve no purpose.

Door Slider

14th May 2009, 22:01

I absolutely cannot wait to see how the Oxon populace react to NVG training especially during the summer./

I think you're forgetting that the Oxon masses are already used to RAF Benson night flying. Usually down to 100ft then landing virtually in their back gardens 4 nights a week, every week.

For what it's worth though, I do believe that Lyneham should stay open in it's current role!

It's funny how todays announcement on tranche 3 of the Eurofighter mentioned nothing about military requirement but only how many UK jobs it would save, thats the only reason we are getting it, along with FLYNX

Ken Scott

15th May 2009, 08:45

C130J sims are supposed to share a bldg with A400 so if the latter is canx & considering the cost.....

They might end up staying at Lyneham (Duke of Marlborough Barracks or whatever the new occupants decide to call the place). Perhaps that's the answer, the army take on the up keep of the real estate & all the RAF have to pay for is the runway which was recently re - surfaced so should be ok for potholes for a bit. If Bzn runs out of of pan space then you could even park a few frames at Lyneham on the old apron.

bayete

15th May 2009, 09:54

Why don't a couple of aircraft head over to Brize one night for some goggs training. Oh and then the next night and the next and the next....
Summertime is perfect as you need to be nice and late at night/early in the morning to get the darkness needed.
Then we will see how the local population react to what is going to come in the future!!
Should be fun in Ops taking all the calls.:}

airborne_artist

15th May 2009, 10:14

I think you're forgetting that the Oxon masses are already used to RAF Benson night flying. Usually down to 100ft then landing virtually in their back gardens 4 nights a week, every week.

Yeah, right .....

Arty Fufkin

15th May 2009, 10:17

Farfrompuken,
Good points mate, but:

Closing Lyneham will ultimately save cash, if not in the short term then in the medium to long. I'm not an accountant, but even I can see that one station is cheaper to run than two. Don't get me wrong, the move will be costly but I guess the bean counters must have established the short term pain is worth the long term savings or they simply wouldn't be doing it.

As for operational effectiveness (not efficiency which is more closely related to the cost issue) , in this case two stations are probably better than one. I for one would love to see Lyneham stay open, but regardless of our effectiveness as AT providers, the cost will always be the driving force. In other words, the Treasury prefers efficiency to effectiveness.

I recently had a chat with a bloke who has fair insight into the opposition's plans for defence. His main points were: Lyneham will close, the new parking spaces at Brize are probably the closest we'll get to the A400, and the Navy's new boats are looking none to certain. He was a nice chap, ex military and on-side but the bare fact is that the piggy bank is empty.

Only 3 years to go for me, the ship is sinking and I'm not ashamed to make like a rat!!

Door Slider

15th May 2009, 12:11

AA

Yeah, right .....

Yeah right what?? Do you doubt me?? I have been at Benson for 4 years trust me, Benson night fly pretty much every night! And with the addition of 230 Sqn later in the year it will get worse. 4 rotary Sqns, pretty busy place!

StopStart

15th May 2009, 12:31

Yeah right what?? Do you doubt me??

Remember kids, arguing on the internet is just like competing in the Special Olympics..... :rolleyes:

People are referring to the local populace of the BZN area, not the population of LFA1 and the NRR (or whatever they're called these days). Your neightbours are well used to the din of the night flying just as ours are at Lyneham. The locals of Brize on the other hand are not.

airborne_artist

15th May 2009, 12:44

I have been at Benson for 4 years trust me, Benson night fly pretty much every night! I've lived within 4 nm of Benson for over ten years, and while there may be the odd flight at night, it's never very much, nor for that long - rarely if ever does it last later than 23.00 (except for Plod).

When I did my first night flying at Leeming 30 years ago we started at 22.30 and finished at 03.30 - we had to - it was in June, and we spent about half the total hours doing circuits....

pretty busy placeFour RW squadrons (and all partially deployed) does not make a station busy, except by very recent standards.

Alvechurch

15th May 2009, 13:22

Top Bunk Tester

Just a gentle reminder, it wasn't anyone at BHX who asked those guys to change into civvies - it was their CO claiming security .
BHX has made it clear on a number of occasions that they have never had any objections whatsoever to forces personnel wearing their uniforms in the Airport.
I'm sure BHX will be happy to continue to receive all diversions from Brize and no one will have to strip off. :ok:

minigundiplomat

15th May 2009, 14:49

the ship is sinking and I'm not ashamed to make like a rat!!

There is no shame in that. You're in some very good company at the moment.

Top Bunk Tester

15th May 2009, 15:00

Alvechurch

Never said it was, without wishing to start up the bunfight again, I believe it was all started by BZN Movers, who now get issued with shiny black hair, with a side parting, toupees and a small stick on moustache, helps if they are small in stature and Corporals as well :rolleyes:

Farfrompuken

15th May 2009, 17:13

Closing Lyneham will ultimately save cash, if not in the short term then in the medium to long.

Agree in the LONG term, and I'm talking WAY beyond the usual assumptions that the planning cycle looks at.

The sad fact is it will affect the locals individuals more than the military; many Blue suiters will be posted/left by 2012, the contractors and secondary business outside the gate will be the main losers financially.

As for operational effectiveness (not efficiency which is more closely related to the cost issue) probably poor choice of my wording. Effectiveness will take a hit.