ATPL exams confirmation

[PA28Viking]

Hi there.

Just a little clarifying question about the ATPL exams. I have just received the letter from the CAA with the results of my final two exams (as after my other sittings), so now all is done and I can move on to CPL.

Question: Is this the only confirmation I will get, or can I expect some sort of certificate or consolidating letter stating that I passed all 14 exams (as per this date, and have 36 months to do something usefull with it).

I have to show something to the flying school, right?

Regards the Viking

[chrisbl]

If you have finished all the exams now, he letter you have received should show all the passes and when done. This is all you get and take to the school.

[Whirlygig]

You might also get a certificate from your ground school to say that you've passed and completed a recognised course.

Cheers

Whirls

[Keith.Williams.]

All JAR approved Groundschools are required to issue their graduates with a Course Completion Certficate, which must be signed by the CGI or Head of training.

For details go to the Flight Crew Licensing section of the CAA website and read Standards Document 33.

Unfortunately not all schools actually comply with this requirement.

If you have completed the course and passed all of the exams, you are entitled to receive a certificate.

If your school does not issue one you should refer them to the Standards Document.

[Alex Whittingham]

The Standards Document is purely advisory, I'm pleased to say, as it contains all sorts of 'rules' and 'requirements' which exist only in the mind of the man who wrote it. One of the benefits of the JAA system is that the same rules are/should be applied across all JAA states and that FTOs should not be subject to the whims of local officials.

[Cows getting bigger]

Oooooh, do I detect a bit of intra-FTO wrangling? :eek:

FWIW, I agree with Alex.

[EK4457]

You already have a peice of paper from the CAA confirming you have sat and passed all exams. By definition, you must have met all of the JAA/CAA requrements. Why on earth would you need more paper saying the same thing?

Of course, not all applicants need to sit any groundschool at all. What do they get?

Keith, I can't think anything more insanely bureaucratic than a CGI scribbling their signature onto hundreds of useless certificates every month.

I really find it suprising that some people actually agree with the CAA dreaming up needless paperwork to provide work for made up jobs.

One of the benefits of the JAA system is that the same rules are/should be applied across all JAA states and that FTOs should not be subject to the whims of local officials.

Amen.

[PA28Viking]

@EKK4457
What is your problem besides being young and rude? If you do not know the answer, just say so, or even better say nothing.

I do not claim that I need more paper, I’m just asking. The piece of paper I got says on top that “THIS RESULT NOTIFICATION IS FOR INFORMATION ONLY “. Therefore I wonder if it will satisfy the school where I do my CPL or if I need/can expect a ‘certificate’ of some sort from CAA or as Keith suggested from my ATPL school.

Thanks for the helpful responses.

[Cows getting bigger]

PA28V, the FTO you attend will be happy with your CAA notification slip. If not, they can call PLD at Gatwick and run a check.

[Whirlygig]

their signature onto hundreds of useless certificates every month.http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/lol-045.gif

I've told you a million times not to exaggerate!

Cheers

Whirls

[Keith.Williams.]

Alex, you are of course correct in stating that the Standards Documents are advisory. Or as the CAA would put it, "they represent what we would look for in a new FTO seeking approval". But as you say, they are not enforceable in law.

Sadly some very useful regulations have now been reduced to mere advice. I personally believe that this change will be detrimental in the long run.

EK4457, as Whirlygig has pointed out, your statement "Keith, I can't think of anything more insanely bureaucratic than a CGI scribbling their signature onto hundreds of useless certificates every month" is a bit of an exaggeretion. I doubt if any UK FTOs turn out that many students per month.

Would it be any more sensible for CGIs to receive a continuous stream of requests for copies of reults from past students who have lost their original copies? This is exactly what currently happens, although the number falls far short of "hundreds per month". It is a sad fact that a significant proportion of students have lost their results sheets long before they complete the course. There is of course no guarantee that the same students will not do the same with their Course Completion Certificates.

[Alex Whittingham]

FWIW we provide course completion certificates to those that ask for them.

[Keith.Williams.]

Yes Alex, I had observed a thread some time ago in your website in which you and many of your students appeared to be very keen on the idea of issuing Course Completion Certificates. That is why I was rather puzzled by your previous post in this thread.

I presume that your concern was purely related to your wish to emphasise the advisory status of the Standards Documents, rather than with the idea of Course Completion Certificates. I must confess to still being puzzled by your decison to issue certificates only to those students who ask for them, but that is your affair. As time goes by there will probably be many students who would like to receive a certificate, but are not aware of the need to ask for one.

Now getting back to the original question in this thread, some of his previous posts suggest that PA28 is a CATS student (though I could of course be wrong). It is possible that his FTO (whoever they may be) are aware of the Standards Document. But if PA28 asks them for a certificate and refers them to the Standards Document 33, he will probably get one. Unless of course his FTO insists that the Standards Documents are "purely advisory and therefore need not be complied with".

[PA28Viking]

Well yes, I'm (or was) at CATS student, and now I do CPL at Stapleford.

I couldn't care less about any certificate signed by the Head of Training or whatever. The only thing I care about is what will ensure unhindered and expeditious CPL, ME, ME/IR and MCC. I would hate to be delayed for my skill test just because the correct documentation was not in place.

As it is I will be able to present the CAA letter to the school tomorrow and that will generate the ultimate answer.

Incidentally CATS let me know that they do not do Course Completion Certificates, but if there is not need for it in the process, then I don’t need it either.

End of story. Thanks for all the replies.

The Viking

[kui2324]

PA28Viking

When I sat my exams I didn't get a course completion certificate but I did hold onto the last exam result letter from the CAA. When I went for my IR course no one was interested in looking at it! Not even the examiner.

The reason I was given was that PLD would check all that when I sent the CAA all the paperwork before they would issue the IR.

[Alex Whittingham]

Yes, that's exactly true. Some students want course completion certificates to mark the achievement of completing the exams, some want them to show other National Authorities who accept UK courses and exams. Certainly they are not required in the UK, the CAA have a record of your exam passes which they check through when you apply for your licence.

[Mikehotel152]

The basic result docs I got from the CAA seem to make the Airlines and FTOs happy. That makes me happy.

I went to BGS in '08.

Alex, may I have a framed certificate with a pretty piece of blue tinsel around the edges? It would go nicely on the kitchen wall beside my Jobseekers Allowance entitlement certificate...;)

[Alex Whittingham]

You certainly can, although you'll have to add the frame and the blue tinsel yourself. Call the office, the girls will sort you out.

[EK4457]

OK, I'll bite. Just for a bit of banter.;)

What is your problem besides being young and rude?

There is no problem with being young as far as I'm concerned. People spend fortunes to keep it. Some might say that being 49 is more of a problem, but not me. I'm not ageist.

Rude? Subjective I know, but I don't think so.

If you do not know the answer, just say so

Yeah, but I do. And I told you. Like nearly everybody else. You don't need any more bits of paper for your file.

or even better say nothing.

Wooo! Saucer of milk for the old guy in the corner. :}

And I do apologise to all for exaggerating and saying hunderds. Forgot I was on PPRUNE. Cross that out and put the average number of graduating students per month if you like. If it is more than zero, it is too much.

EK

[Keith.Williams.]

Alex,

Having read your most recent posts in this thread I am now even more confused about your views on the subject of Course Completion Certificates.

The following comments were made by you in your own website in response to posts from some of your customers who are keen to receive Course Completion Certificates.


"It's an interesting idea. What would be more valuable, a diploma/certificate for passing the exams or one that reflected your performance on the course?"

"Yes, I think we will do this. It will take a month or so to design and print the certificates. We should be able to grade the course results as 'pass', 'merit' and 'distinction' as well as providing the exam results but I need to give a little bit more thought to how we work the criteria."

"Yes, we have the first batch printed. I just need to get a caligraphy pen and we're off."

"You'll have to Ask Noush or Kate for one."


But your most recent posts in this thread appear to suggest that you see these certificates as being rather ridiculous.

Were you perhaps just humouring your customers or have your views changed since you agreed to issue the certificates.


More importantly, some of the advice that has been given in this thread is likley to prove costly for those who follow it.

Some Flight Schools and Flight Examiners insist on seeing proof of the exam passes. They will not be prepared to go to the CAA to check. I have received many urgent requests for copies of results sheets from ex-students who have come up against this problem.

Readers who choose not to beleive me, may read the following text, which was also copied directly from the same thread in the BGS website.

"On the note of exam result transcripts - don't throw them away once you get your licence! I know this may sound ridiculous to many of you but the last 3 pilots I have booked onto type rating courses have not had their CAA groundschool results as they discarded/misplaced them once they got their frozen ATPL. Both Flight Safety (Atlanta) and CAE Simuflite (Dallas) require the original documents at the start of the course if it is an intial TR. I can't speak for other TRTOs but imagine they would have similar requirements.

Luckily we managed to find a very friendly guy at the CAA (yes they do actually exist) who rushed the paperwork out to us within a few days but usually it takes weeks and cost £25. So keep everything!"


Whatever any reader may think of certificates, they would be wise to ensure that they retain either the CAA results letters, or the Course Completion Certificate if they receive one. Hopefully they will never be required, but they constitue a useful insurance against the day when they do.

Unfortunately a significant number fo students do not retain their CAA results letters. If a Course Completion Certificate is issued automatically when the final exams have been passed, this gives such students a second chance.

If all FTOs were to follow the "CAA Advice" on this matter as stated in the Standards Documents, Course Completion Certificates would eventually become universally accepted as proof of passing.

The addition of Tinsel would of course remain optional.

[oceanicclarence]

The guy only asked a question, and Alex Whittingham was only trying to help (as always).
Get over it, move on, there's a life out there. Let the bloody CAA look for their meaningless paperwork. I think my ATPL results sheet is stuffed somewhere at the bottom of my flight bag, but I don't care if it is or it isn't.
Why do people get caught up in daft threads like this, and come out with things that if were said in person, would merit a swift slap.
Hang on, why am I caught up in it? I think I may be turning into one of those goits who put comments on the bottom of youtube videos, and end up hanging themselves because someone in North Scumswamp, Oadaidaho said they were gay.
Off to stroke a kitten now.

[PA28Viking]

Dear EK4457

Well, the thread has served its purpose so no harm in a little drift. Sorry about the comment on your age. Youth is not a problem. Old age could very well be. I remember when I was your age and my dad was in his mid forties. ‘Son’, he said, ‘I can’t teach you anything more now’. And I agreed wholeheartedly. He knew nothing useful and I knew about all there was to know. I had it all figured out.

My father had all kinds of different considerations to apply to various situations. I just wanted to get on with it. Now, sadly enough, I tend to be applying the ‘big picture’ and that of course often gets in the way of the progress that young people have the right to expect.

And as for the rudeness. Well, you where not really rude. Just pointing out the facts in a non roundabout way. Most young people are very polite. Ask any old guy (in the corner). ‘Oh, they are so nice and civil the youngsters’, he would say. ‘But very blunt and to the point. Refreshing most of the time’.

Now that I know you better, I will look to you for advice on matters where an old fart like me could benefit from a clear and fresh perspective on things. And please do not hesitate to point it out yourself, if you see it coming.

Best regards

The Viking

[EK4457]

Viking,

I'm glad you took my post with the pinch of salt it deserved. Nothing wrong with a little banter. For what it's worth, I do get the moral of your father/son story.

Regardless of weather you get a certificate or not, I wish you all the best with your CPL/IR and many safe landings.

EK

[Lightning Mate]

Alex,

As usual you are simply interested only in selling your ATPL "database" question bank. Any posts on this site can only re-enforce your sales.

Your "database" is full of out-of-date/erroneous questions and I feel that you are a con-artist in making the gullible pay extortionate prices for garbage. Many of your "questions" and "answers" are simply beyond belief. I can say this with absolute "AUTHORITY". Congratulations on the success of your school.

LM

[Whirlygig]

I can say this with absolute "AUTHORITY". Absolute authority eh? So, now we know who the question setter is :}

At least Alex doesn't (nor Keith) hide behind his username.

Cheers

Whirls

[thetimesreader84]

Most (if not all) TRTO's will want to see, and photocopy, some sort of proof that you have passed all your ATPL theory exams. In my case this was the CAA statement of results that you get after each exam.