FAA ATP to JAA ATPL, (Merged 2009)

[Peter McCormack]

Hey this is just a really quick question.......i was wondering if someone could tell me, on average how much would it cost to convert an FAA licence atpl to an jaa...

thanks:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[TelBoy]

I am a bit confused about your question as due to your age you cannot hold an FAA ATP.

Please give more info on flight hours etc.

[Peter McCormack]

i could have made it more clear lol....i am just curious as i am looking to train in epic aviation in florida and at the end i would get a faa instead of a jaa
and i am just wondering is it worth it as i heard its quite expensive to convert

[Shunter]

It depends at what stage you convert as to how much it costs. An FAA PPL is just fine as a precursor to doing a JAA CPL course, so no need to convert it to a JAA PPL.

If you go all the way through to getting an FAA CPL/IR you'll have the costs of the 14 JAA exams, whatever training you need to get upto test standard (CPL is 'as required', IR is minimum of 15hrs), then the 2 tests at about £750 each.

It would be more helpful if you clarified at what stage you wish to convert. Are you really going to America and not coming back until you have an ATP? Are you just doing a PPL and hour building? Are you doing an IR over there? Ask an accurate question and you'll get an accurate(ish) answer.

[INNflight]

Peter,

When doing your training in the US, there's no such thing as a FAA fATPL, but instead you will hold a FAA CPL ME IR.

Conversion costs largely depend on the country you want to do the conversion in.

Examples: (and I found that out by calling multiple aviation authorities, because various member states make JAR-FCL look like a book full of jokes!)

- The UK

I assume most people do their conversion there, you need:

UK ATPL theory credits plus what is specified in LASORS (i.e. 15hrs for IR, etc..)

- Greece

Again you need ATPL theory credits, but from ANY JAR member state, plus the retraining, same requirements as in the Uk.

- Switzerland

You'd need Swiss ATPL theory credits, but no retraining at all!!! Only have to pass the skill tests!

- Austria (just to make it more hilarious)

You need at least 700 hrs TT to do a conversion AT ALL!!!!!!! :yuk:

-----------------------------------

Now someone tell me these JAR-FCLs are not a total joke? :oh:

Switzerland seems to be the best option I found so far, though. Gotta call Portugal next ;)

[AlphaMale]

Pretty tempted to this myself.

JAA PPL + Night

Complete my ATPL GS

Go to Skymates or some other school and carry out the training for;

FAA IR ($5,500) / CPL & MEP ($5,995)

Then come back to the UK and convert it all to JAA.

I'm just hoping that having both FAA and JAA licences and ratings might open a few more doors with regards to the BizJet industry. And if it saves me some cash then all the better.

[Tony77]

Skymates would be a good choice! :ok:

[lpokijuhyt]

I live in Europe. I have appx 4000 hours total time and Type Ratings in B744, B747, LR-Jet and IA-Jet.

I have a FAA ATP. In late 2006, I began the process of taking all 14 JAA ATPL exams. 6 months later I passed all the exams. Then I got a JAR Class 1 medical which costs several hundred euros. Then I took a few hours training in a Seneca and took a checkride and received a ME/Comm/IR...JAR. Big deal. why? Because it is not the AtPL. If I want a JAA Atpl then the pilot has to do a checkride in a JaR part 25 aircraft or sim. (basically a multi-crew aircraft over 12,500 pounds). The JAA will not simply give you the Atpl because you have thousands of hours and type ratings on a FAA license. They don't care. I also had to fight for 4 months to convice them that I did not need to take a MCC course. That was difficult. There is no such thing as conversion!! I hate to hear this word, conversion! So, I looked at getting a type rating that I already had on my FAA license, i.e. Learjet 35. The people at Simuflite will tell you they are JAA approved and have JAA examiners...big deal....why? because they will put the type rating on your JAA ME/Comm/IR. They CANNOT issue an ATPL, only the JAA participating country's authority is able to issue the JAR FCL. Oh and oh yeah, this has to be done as a checkride in the actual aircraft. So I would have to rent a Learjet for a couple of hours to perform the exact same crap I could have done in the sim in the USA. Then you ask yourself, well why don't you just do the sim training in Europe...hahaha, because it will honestly cost 5 times as much just because it is in Europe and not the US...even though it is the same damn company, i.e. Simuflite. Incredible. JAA/ME/IR Comm pilots are a dime a dozen over here. Who cares. Companies want to see that you have an ATPL....whic you do not....so you are equal to the pilot with 200 hours in a Cessna 172. Oh and by the way, if you don not have at leat 500 hours in THE EXACT TYPE OF AIRCRAFT the company operates then you are out of luck...actually the European company will frown on your experience because they prefer "cadets" that they can manipulate and make pay for everything. An experienced FO is a liability not an asset. There are 2 paths today, a DE Captain with hundreds of hours in TYPE or a cadet with virtually no time. I'm telling you the truth and I wish more folks would wake up to the fact. Remember, there is no such thing as a FAA to JAA conversion, it is a lie. I know! You have to do everything from scratch all over again. There are some websites that say that if you have thousands of hours in a particular jet then you are exempt from completing all the exams, etc, etc. It is bs

[INNflight]

A lot of frustration in the previous posting (which I totally understand, really), but some things to consider.

Comm pilots are a dime a dozen over here. Who cares. Companies want to see that you have an ATPL....whic you do not....so you are equal to the pilot with 200 hours in a Cessna 172.

I think this thread mainly is about beginners taking the FAA > JAA route, not experienced guys. That being said, as beginner you'll have to start out with a CPL, no chance at an ATP - obviously.

The main reason the US way is a lot more tempting is the cost factor.
A Cessna 150 costs 50 euros in the States while the same airplane costs 120 euros in say... the UK. Then you pay landing fees, ATC fees, etc....

Training in the US (including the damn conversion - which as you said isn't really one, but more like a new license with some minimal retraining) is still a whole lot less expensive than in Euroland.

[sapperkenno]

From my understanding, as a Brit with FAA Commercial Multi-Engine Instrument (& JAA PPL, FAA CFI/II)...

NB: There is no conversion in the same sense as FAA to Transport Canada (a relatively simple process with NO flight test, and just watered down "written" exams for Commercial, Instrument or ATP)

To get to the same licensing level in JAA-land; ie, CPL/MEIR (fATPL) I would need to do the following, as a bare minimum...

Those stupid 14 exams (or only 12 if I didn't intend to get an ATPL, just CPL/IR). I have heard rumors that I could be "signed off" by an approved FTO instead of having to prove 650 hours of ground-school and taking their course. eg, They could approve me to the CAA as being ready to take the exams (as I already hold ICAO qualifications), and I'd just have to tip up at Gatwick and have at 'em, then re-sit whatever I fail! I doubt any FTO would waive their "right" to sting me for upwards of 1000GBP, so I'd likely be signing up to Bristol.gs and doing that. So meeting ALL of the theoretical requirement is a MUST. It needs to be done.

As far as the flight training...
I would need 15 hours minimum instrument training (which I have from doing my IMC) with a JAA instructor (presumably in a G-reg), plus whatever training I require in preparation for the CPL and MEIR flight tests. All that, plus a class one medical.
So, best case, maybe 1-4 hours flying on top of that, in preparation to take the UK skills tests. I have it on good authority that the UK JAA CPL standards are not as difficult as the FAA, and that the IR is more of an ADF rating... Minus the NDB work, the IR is similar in scope and the skill level required, to the FAA instrument. Plus there are no oral exams for JAA, probably because you've shown that you know at least 75% of what you should by passing the written exams.

As far as costs... very cheap in the US in comparison to Europe, even with the current exchange rates and economic situation. Just don't forget about the cost of; flights to/from the US, places to stay, means of transport, travel insurance, food etc. Those would be the negative points. On the plus side, you would save on the flight training costs, the weather can be more favorable (especially here in AZ), and you might get lucky and train at a good flight school. (I have heard rumors there are some schools that aren't too great, especially out in FL) Another good thing, is no snotty-ness, or class system here in the states.

After all that, I can't give you a cost! But you should be able to work it out for yourself from what's been said.

[FlyingOW]

Has anyone done it? If so, at what cost? Avg. simulator cost/hr in UK? Do CAA inspectors charge for skill test? Trying to draw up a budget.....

Thanks,

OW

[cardtrickrob]

I'm about to finish my FAA training and looking to convert to JAA. I've been asking around different places in Europe, and have had some quotes.

Airman in Spain = €19000
Egnatia Aviation = €12500
Aerodynamics-Malaga = €6000 (no Theory or CPL as this apparently has to be done in the same country, although they do offer the Theory - it's in Spanish!)

But the school I'm leaning towards is Stapleford Flight Centre. It's nearest to where I live in the UK, and I know a few people that have trained with them in the past. They've offered the conversion at £9100 excluding the Theory. I'm looking into CATS Distance Learning for that, and at a cost of £1000 excluding the exam fees, I think this is the least expensive I've found!

Hope this helps!

Rob

[Defbond]

I know i know, not again but maybe someone has answers to these questions, a search turned up no relevant results, so about me:

4300 Total time
1600 PIC of JAR 23 multi-crew aircraft (B1900D)
2 type ratings (additional 600 as SIC on second type)

3 questions that I'm dying to know answers too:

1. May i take the 14 ATPL written exams without ground school at a training facility or a sign off? Specifically I was interested in doing the Dauntless Aviation (http://www.dauntless-soft.com/) distance learning program and taking the exams in Lakeland, Florida via CAAinternaional.

2. May the skills test be taken in a multi-engine piston aircraft in the United States with an UK CAA examiner on board, or must it be in an aircraft requiring a type rating?

3. Has anyone on PPRuNe actually done this?

Please provide any info possible and quote supporting sections of the JAR's/LASORS if its not too much trouble.

Thanks Again,
Furloughed Pilot...

[INNflight]

1. May i take the 14 ATPL written exams without ground school at a training facility

I am not exactly sure as I do the conversion as a low-timer, but there is at least one FTO I know of where you do not have to do the ~2 week ground school course.

On the other questions, I guess I'll pass. :)

[INNflight]

By the looks of it now it is gonna cost me approx. 7500-8500 euros to convert to a JAR fATPL.

[Daniel777]

All in all do you guys think that in the current climate it is worth to do FAA IR,CPL,ME and than do a conversion or better to do JAA straight away?

I am at the point to decide whether to go for FAA+conversion or JAA...

Thanks in advance

Daniel

[cardtrickrob]

In all honesty, if I could turn back time knowing what I know now about how things have gone, I'd have gone the JAA route straight off. Just my opinion though!

[BigGrecian]

It is well known and published on this forum and elsewhere, that training FAA and then converting is NOT cheaper and ends up considerably more expensive in the long run unless you are way above average ability. I warn those considering you are probably not - even though you think you are - so make sure your pockets are deep!

[Transsonic2000]

@ Defbond:

First and most important question, do you hold a EU-Citizenship/Passport? If not, it's pretty much impossible (as a None EU-citizen) to find a pilot job in Europe, since most operators require EU-Citizenship, or the legal right to work and live in Europe. They won't sponsor a work permit.

Regarding your other questions, I think to following links might be useful:

OFT flight training school aviation academy, Florida (http://www.flyoft.com/license_conversion_2.php)

http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/career/documents/JAAConversion.pdf


Regarding the "conversion" in general:

In advance, it always depends on the individual/personal situation and it's difficult to tell which approach is the best to get the "conversion" done, e.g. for an Englishman the U.K. track is probably the best. I've been dealing with this matter for quite some time and considering all available options (e.g. Spain, U.K. etc) I personally came to the conclusion that the best and probably least expensive way to get the "conversion" done, is in Switzerland.

And here is why:

1. There is a an FTO in Zurich which provides a "Special Conversion Offer" (meaning you are exempt from sitting a ground school class) provided that you hold at least an FAA CPL/IR in conjunction with the FAA ATPL Written Test, or the FAA (or ICAO) ATPL itself. So that'll save you a couple of thousand Euros right there! But of course, you'll still have to take the 14. JAA ATPL exams. The name of the FTO is Horizon Swiss Flight Academy. Registration fee is about 2200€ (for being an autodidact! Welcome to Euroland!) not including the books. That'd be another 1000€ (for the Oxford books, which they are using) but you probably get them for less money on ebay.

Best online Test-prep (concerning the JAA ATPL) I've heard of is AVIATIONEXAM.com - the largest & latest JAA-CQB question bank available online, in print and on CD-ROM. (http://www.aviationexam.com)

2. As already mentioned in an earlier post above, in Switzerland there is no re-training required in order to take the skill test! However, being realistic, it'll probably take a few additional hours of flying (to get acquainted with the European System and Airspace) in order to be ready to take the check ride!

By the way, regarding the preparation for the skill test, it's your freedom of choice which flight school or FTO you pick (usually or preferably in Switzerland, I was told the U.K. [CAA] also accepts the Swiss JAA ATPL theory). There's a flight school direct at the Zurich Intl. Airport (LSZH) their prices are quite reasonable, allegedly the offer the lowest rate for a Piper Seneca in entire Switzerland. The website can be found at: MFGZ: Motorfluggruppe (http://www.mfgz.ch) and the email is: [email protected]

In general, most of the European Airlines/Operators require a MCC (Multi Crew Coordination) Course which you have to pay for yourself. Usually the price ranges from 3000€ to 5000€, there is a vendor in Berlin (Germany) they offer an MCC Course for about 1700€ - that's a pretty swet deal, if you'd ask me! Website: FSB Flugschule Berlin - International Flight School Berlin (http://www.fsbflight.com)

So, if I did the Math right, going the Swiss way and getting the MCC Course in Germany, it should be feasible to get the JAA frozen ATP for less than 10.000€.

As I mentioned before, this is my personal opinion based on the information I have and the inquires I made. But perhaps, my post contains some useful information for others.

good luck ;)

[Defbond]

Transsonic2000 (http://www.pprune.org/members/130057-transsonic2000), thanks for the reply,

However it doesn't really answer my questions, and here is why:

1. I do hold European Citizenship

2. From LASORS section G1.5:

G1.5 Note 1
ATPL(A) holders who have a minimum of 1500 hours flying
experience as PIC or Co-pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes
(or single-pilot aeroplanes operated by 2-pilots according
to operational requirements) and hold a valid multi-pilot
type rating for the aeroplane to be used for the ATPL(A)
skill test and have at least 500 hours experience as pilot
on that type, will be exempted from the requirements to
complete an approved TRTO course or undergo approved
training prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge
examinations and the skill test.
The ATPL(A) Skill Test in this case will have a 12 month
validity for the purpose of licence issue.

I do not need to complete an approved ground school class prior to to taking the 14 exams since I have the above noted experience, its a matter of finding a suitable home study course and signing up at CAA International Ltd (http://www.caainternational.com/) to take the tests right here in the USA, this is why i was asking about Dauntless Aviation (http://www.dauntless-soft.com/) to see if studying via this method alone was enough to pass the exams.

3. I HAVE been in contact with OFT and they told me the following:

a) I would only need to travel to Europe to get my JAA class 1 medical
b) Once i received the medical and passed the 14 written exams I could begin training in their multi engine PISTON twin in order to prep for an exam with an UK CAA examiner onboard
c) Once that ride is successfully completed I would be issued a JAA COMM/ME/IR which would be sent to the UK in order for it to be converted to a full unrestricted JAA ATPL(A) valid in all member nations.

4. From LASORS Section F10.3:

Requests for MCC credit will be considered from
applicants who have logged 500 hours as pilot in multipilot
public transport operations, even if that flying took
place in single-pilot certified aircraft. Where an applicant
has accrued such experience exercising the privileges of
a non-UK licence, in addition to the actual logbook record
of those hours, we will require documentary evidence
from both the operator and the national aviation authority
concerned confirming that the aircraft was required to be
operated exclusively by 2 pilots qualified on type - even on
non-revenue and positioning flights. The organisation(s)
under whose Air Operator’s Certificate the operations
were carried out must be clearly identified. A copy of the
non-UK ICAO licence and AOC will also be required.

Therefore I should be exempt from having to take an MCC course if I can get the CAA to grant me credit since i exceed their requirement by almost 1500 hours.


Now I have also heard that the claims made by OFT are bs and I cannot prove that it is not so, however, if someone could quote from the JAR's/LASORS that there is a requirement to take the ATPL(A) checkride in an aircraft/sim requiring a type rating when you already have my afformentioned experience (see post #14 this thread) instead of in a piston multi-engine aircraft, then that would clear this mess up right away and save me alot of money, enough to make this conversion feasible.

[INNflight]

^^^^^ I am pretty much in the same boat as Transsonic!

It is well known and published on this forum and elsewhere, that training FAA and then converting is NOT cheaper and ends up considerably more expensive in the long run

Is 100% wrong!!!

Spending 30k euros on the conversion would have me at the same cost than doing all the training in Europe!

[lpokijuhyt]

Hi,

I think I can answer your 3 questions.

First off, I assume you have the legal right to live and work in the EU, if not then it is pointless to do the JAA licensing.

1. The JAA is the governing body of aviation in the EU; HOWEVER each individual country can intrepet the regulations as they see fit. You have to get the "ok" from the EU country from which you wish to receive your license. Each JAA nations is different. Some countries will insist you take a ATPL theory course, other nations may waive this. You need to do the research.

2. You can do the JAA Comm/ME checkride in the USA. HOWEVER; it is illegal for the USA to issue the IR. This is impossible. You can doa JAA Type Rating in the USA on a jet, the company in the USA can issue the Type Rating, but you will still not have the ATPL because that will need to be issued by the respective country in the EU. Even if you coordinate with the EU nation that you will do the training in America for a Type Rating in order to get the ATPL, you will still have to do a couple things in the actual aircraft. So if you get a 737 Type in the USA and have a JAA examiner at Simuflite in Dallas observe your checkride....it still is only half the battle. you will need to charter out an empty 737 and do a checkride in the EU, then you will receive your ATPL. The other option is doing the Type in Europe at a JAA certified TRTO, then you ca do everything in the sim. Simple economics my friend. The TRTO's lobbied the JAA and convinced them to make a provision that helps keep the training in Europe, so they can charge 5 times the price.

3. Your ultimate goal is the JAA ATPL. This again has to be issued by the JAA member country, i.e. LBA in Germany, CAA in the UK, etc. There is no such thing as THE JAA LICENSE, the license will be issued by the respective EU nation and have the words JAA somewhere on the license. The best example is if each individual state in America issued its own license and conformed to the regulations set out by the Faa. Obviously in America you receive the FAA license and it says nothing about which state it originated from; however in Europe each individual country is responsible for licensing.

[FLT86]

Hi !

And if you do your PPL, CPL, IR in USA + ATPL JAA there in an approved JAA flight school + CPL-IR and MCC in UK, is it ok ?
Should you have a JAA licence issuied by CAA UK ?

I'm asking it because I'd like to do my training in Skymates where they propose in a package a JAA course with these licences.

Thank you !

[Fitnesspilot737]

Hey there. I have just finished up in the States with my training. I have gained a FAA CSEL and FAA CMEL along with 280 hours. I want to convert my licence asap to JAA and possibly start a CFI course. I would prefer to do this conversion in England. All I am looking for is some advice on how to go about this process and if anyone has any personal recommendations of schools in England. Any other information on the process would be gratefully appreciated

[Shunter]

Presuming you have an IR aswell....

1. Get a Class 1 medical from Gatwick.
2. Do the 14 ATPL exams. Bristol have a good reputation for groundschool, although I used CATS and they were fine. Bristol's brush-up residentials are a little more constraining for those with demanding jobs.
3. Training as required, then CPL test (£750).
4. 15hrs minimum conversion training (probably more), then IR test (another £750).

Plenty more detailed info if you use the search facility...

[INNflight]

Good thread:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/372852-faa-atp-jaa-atpl-merged-2009-a.html

Otherwise, Shunter has it pretty much spot-on.

[Fitnesspilot737]

Yes I have the IR also. Can anyone reccomend any schools? I know some schools only do the ground school and not the practical flying portion. I am looking into Bristol and Oxford at the moment. Also is it harder to do distance learning than actually attending classes?

[INNflight]

Also is it harder to do distance learning than actually attending classes?

I think most schools require a certain amount of ground school anyway (around 2 weeks usually), but I agree that a full DL course requires more self-discipline.

[Fitnesspilot737]

Oops I see I typed recommend wrong:uhoh:!!!
Which is quicker? My problem is I need to find a job to keep the cash flow going while I study hence the reason im looking into distance learning. Bristol look good!!!!? I think actual ground school would be more beneficial but I have a FAA CPL IR so theoretically I should know most things already....I hope. Is there a question bank with the answers to which you have the opportunity to look at before each exam like the states (FAA)?

[Fitnesspilot737]

Thanks for the help. Has anyone used bristol distance learning? If so how did they find it?

[patelv6]

I used bristol distance learning and found it to be very helpful. Supplementing the question bank with browsing through the books and you shouldn't have too many problems..Be careful , as they tend to bring out new questions which you may not find in the database.

Could anyone tell me when i can log PIC hours? The FAA log it differently to the JAA . i plan or converting from FAA to JAA and need PIC hours to begin my conversion.

[Matthew Adams]

c) Once that ride is successfully completed I would be issued a JAA COMM/ME/IR which would be sent to the UK in order for it to be converted to a full unrestricted JAA ATPL(A) valid in all member nations.


Not true. The initial JAA IR must be taken in Europe.


Is 100% wrong!!!

Spending 30k euros on the conversion would have me at the same cost than doing all the training in Europe!

Maybe if you have more than the minimum number of hours for licence issue.
As a FI at a UK school - the majority go considerably over minimum conversion hours during conversion.

Could anyone tell me when i can log PIC hours? The FAA log it differently to the JAA . i plan or converting from FAA to JAA and need PIC hours to begin my conversion.

There can only ever be ONE PIC of a single pilot aircraft. ie when you are with an instructor you cannot log it as PIC - it is logged as dual.
If you flew some time in a multi with another pilot for insurance purposes - only one person can log it - unless you are receiving instruction - it is a single pilot aircraft. I.e non of the safety pilot time, or time someone else logged safety pilot and PIC can be counted.
If you fly a multi pilot type but only have an SIC rating you cannot log this as PIC either.

[grrowler]

So can someone clarify, with >1500 multi crew, a rating and >500 hours on type you only need to do the ATPL skill test (after doing the theory of course), but can it all be done in a sim?

Also, what about an additional type rating with less than 500 hours (430:ugh:)?

For example, I have say 2800 hours DHC8 so I could do the test in that (sim?), but I also hold an E170/190 rating with 430 hours on type. I guess that rules it out for the test, but will it be brought across onto my JAA license?

[ITFC1]

yes it can be done in a sim, but if you are converting it, it has to be with a JAA Flight Ops Inspector, and you have to book it 3 months in advance.

If you got more than 500 on type, you just need an LST, anything less you have to do a course, but i think the course can be reduced, probably just a recurrent.

I have done this process last year, so if anybody needs any advice please PM me.

[antoniox]

Hello,
I got now the basic understanding (i think :sad:) of how to do the FAA-Europe conversion,i got the FAA CPL IR ME, in the future (distant future...) i will like to get JAA, most of this thread is directed to the UK, im looking for specifics in Poland (my wife is polish so naturally i think thats my best option), so any info will be apreciatted :ok:

[Transsonic2000]

training in the US, clocking up the 1,500 hours and literally having an unfrozen ATPL as it were in the States.Basically that's correct. BUT, the composition of this 1500 hr requirement for an ATPL between FAA (US) and JAA (EU) is different!

In the US the 1500 hr can be all in small, single-pilot aircraft (like Cessna, Piper etc.)! Not in Europe though, according to JAR-FCL at least 500 hr must be in multi-crew airplanes (either JAR25, Transport Category, or JAR23, Commuter Category).