Logging time on PPL checkrides

[NorthSouth]

I spend quite a lot of my instructor time doing checkrides for PPLs, both on group-owned and club aircraft. It's very hard to justify arguing that they should be P U/T, except maybe with newly qualified PPLs doing their first flight on type, so hardly any of these flights are in my logbook. I'm not bothered about not getting the hours per se, but my number of hours on one or two types looks very low because most of them are unlogged. Of course the other side of it is that I get very little handling of the aircraft so my experience level on those types is actually pretty low.

What do other people do?

NS

[DFC]

If I am willing to be a passenger while another pilot is PIC then they are not in need of a checkride.

I always log PIC time when I am PIC.

I never log time as a passenger.

If there is no reason (club rules, insurance, 90 day rule etc) that require a checkout then no checkout is required.

Simple.

Regards,

DFC

[Whopity]

It's very hard to justify arguing that they should be P U/T....so hardly any of these flights are in my logbook. Its not hard to justify at all, if you are doing any instruction on a flight, failing to record it may be a breach of Article 35:

(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;

JAR-FCL1-080
(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.

If you are not a flight crew member, you are a Passenger Art 155.

[homeguard]

Whopity

(iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.

Does one interpret the extract to say that both the PPL undertaking a club check should log P1 (should no instrucion take place, only observation) and the Instructor also logs P1.

[Whopity]

Homeguard

I think there are numerous ways of interpreting it and despite claims to the contrary there is no definitive answer. Personally, I see no problem with the other pilot logging P1S for a check out, and have done it this way for years. Article 35 states that you should log your operating capacity, and I think P1S describes it accurately. If you do more than one flight, only the last would realistically qualify as P1S the rest would be Dual.

The other issue is with regard to claiming hours towards licence issue and revalidation where too many hours P1S is not the objective. All guidance on the subject (LASORS) is there simply to ensure pilots are not making applications with hours that are not acceptable.

There is no law that says you can't have two pilots in a single pilot aeroplane. The law actually specifies a minimum number of crew, then it is down to the operator!

Provided that you meet issue and revalidation requirements with appropriate hours, it matters not how you log dual flights so long as you comply with Art 35. If you are doing any instruction, which includes using your judgment as an instructor, i.e. observing the other pilot, then you log the entire flight. If you teach anything, then it should of course be dual.

The law is quite simple with regard to logging hours and the guidance is there for a specific purpose, beyond that, its down to the individual. As long as you log what you actually did, then you have fulfilled the requirement. A chance to be honest rather than rule bound!

[hugh flung_dung]

NS - if you search through the archives you'll see that this topic comes-up regularly.

Deciding how to log a flight is simple if you ask yourself a few questions: who signed for the aircraft, who will be interviewed by the CAA if you bust airspace or break a rule, and who will fill-in the paperwork if the aircraft ends-up in a hedge. Whoever it is, that person is the Captain and logs the flight accordingly.
If I am in a school aircraft as an instructor then I am the Captain. If I am flying with a private owner who wants to polish some skill then we will agree beforehand who is the Captain and who will deal with emergencies.

Regarding the P1/S suggestion - this might appear to be a logical answer but the rules are clear: in SPA it can only be used for a successful flight test with an examiner. It's unfortunate that the CAA have not relaxed the P1/S definition to include checkouts with an FI as this would remove a grey area..

HFD

[cardinal1]

if the donkey stops pulling. who takes control. log those hours
they will one day be useful

[DFC]

Perhaps the problem is simply in the terminology used.

"Checkride" and "Checkout" are incorrect terms used as sales speak for what is without doubt a training flight.

Proof of it being a training flight is that such flights lasting 1 hour or more are claimed as the 1 hour training flight when it comes time to see an examminer about the SEP rating.

The problem is that -

"This club requires all new members and members who have not flown as PIC in the last 28 days to complete a checkout"

sounds far better from a sales point of view than

"This club requires all new members and members who have not flown as PIC in the last 28 days to complete a training flight."

While many sky Gods will grumble and put up with the first example, their dignity and status would be so offended by the second example that they would find it hard to agree to such a draconian measure.

However, in practice it is no different.

I have now resolved to remove all references to "checkouts" and replace them with "training flights".

If observed practice (instructor observing student) and de-briefing is not training then what is happening for a very large part of the PPL sylabus?

Regards,

DFC

[Cows getting bigger]

If I am instructing, I'm P1.
If I'm being instructed, I'm P u/t.
If I successfully pass a CAA test for the award of a rating I'm P1S.

[BigGrecian]

Your in the right hand seat - because your club requires it - then you log it as PIC and isntruction given, they log it as dual.

Case G - Section A Page 44 LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/lasors) - very clear if you ask me.

In my eyes there is no other way to log it legally.
I am responsible for the aircraft not them - or as stated I am a passenger and cannot log anything.
I know which way everyone logs it at two schools I worked at.

[Whopity]

LASORS may be very clear but it is NOT Regulation, it is advisory information provided for guidance in specific cases.Regarding the P1/S suggestion - this might appear to be a logical answer but the rules are clear: in SPA it can only be used for a successful flight test with an examiner.What rules? This is guidance material as I stated, and is designed to ensure that you have relevant hours when claiming them for issue and revalidation only! if you think you can find a legal reference for this please enlighten us.
Whoever it is, that person is the Captain and logs the flight accordingly.This brings us back to the original question, if there is an instructor on board for a check test or whatever, then he is the Captain!In my eyes there is no other way to log it legally.The only Legal requirement for logging is Article 35.

[homeguard]

How does a 'club check' equate to training. The purpose of this type of check is to protect the clubs assets and to an extent its reputation. There is no requirement, hopefully, for instructor input to take place other than to pass the time of day. Should training be required then the pilot is clearly demonstrating that they do indeed need the training and obviously the flight is then PUT.

However, the pilot demonstrates good airmanship, skill and command without input from the instructor so, how then can training have deemed to take place. The pilot should log PIC. But the instructor is on the the flight as an instructor performing the duties of an instructor and so ipso facto should/can the instructor also log PIC.

iii) The holder of an instructor
rating may log as pilot-in-command all
flight time during which he acts as an
instructor in an aeroplane.

[Eurotraveller]

A cautionary tale regarding P1S and hours for license issue...

I had several 'club checkouts' as a current and legal SEP PPL when I was hour building, and was told by several instructors who conducted the club checks that they would be logging P1, and that I should log P1S. I went along with this arrangement, even though I had the LASORS reference quoted by others on this thread in the back of my mind, which quite clearly states that P1S is only for use following a successful skills test.

When I came to apply for my CPL/IR, I had the required number of P1 hours for license issue, however this total P1 time figure included about 12 hours of P1S logged over the years during various club checkouts.

Not wanting my application to be rejected, I contacted the CAA and asked them whether these P1S hours counted as P1 hours for the purpose of license issue - I was told categorically that no they did not count, that the guidance in LASORS was correct, and that I had been logging P1S incorrectly. I was told that since the instructor logged P1, these hours could only be logged by me as PUT, and that if I sent my license off to them it would be returned as I did not have the required number of P1 hours. I therefore had to find the money to build another 12 pure P1 hours to get my license issued.

Thinking about it, on these check flights yes I was a legal and current PPL with a valid SEP rating. However, the instructor signed the aircraft out, and as such took responsibility for the flight, and so whilst I have absolutely no doubt that it is fair for the instructor to log P1 in this case it is incorrect to tell students that they can legally log P1S. Whilst I agree the LASORS definition of PUT doesn't fit perfectly, I think it is the only capacity which can be logged by the subject of the 'check'.

I agree that the CAA could stop a lot of the confusion by being definitive on this, but I got a categorical answer from them - it is not allowed, for the purposes of license issue, to log these unofficial club checkouts as P1S. There obviously is confusion out there, as I was told by several different instructors in several different FTOs that it was fine.

I don't blame the instructors by the way, who I suspect were as confused as me.

Eurotraveller

[DFC]

However, the pilot demonstrates good airmanship, skill and command without input from the instructor so, how then can training have deemed to take place.

On the dual training flight before a student is sent solo they are expected to demonstrate good airmanship, skill and command without input from the instructor. How can that not be a training flight?

Observed parctice is a large part of the PPL, CPL, IR and every other training course you will ever do. It is an essential part of training.

Regards,

DFC

[Whopity]

However, the pilot demonstrates good airmanship, skill and command without input from the instructor so, how then can training have deemed to take place. The pilot should log PIC. But the instructor is on the the flight as an instructor performing the duties of an instructor and so ipso facto should/can the instructor also log PIC.

You can't realistically have two PICs on the same flight, hence designations like Pilot in Command (Under Supervision). There can only be one person in charge at any one time. If there is a need for you to be there as an instructor then the Instructor is PIC.
I agree that the CAA could stop a lot of the confusion by being definitive on this Why does everyone want to opt out of decision making? The CAA are not there to make rules for pilots who can't make up their mind on how to follow the rules that do exist. If you are applying for a licence or rating then they have a say, and do publish it. Beyond that, they have no interest in what you write in your log.